Thai Homophobia

[cm-happy]

Just finished watching a Thai movie(DVD) titled Iron Ladies. Its about a Thai volleyball team composed almost entirely of katoes(lady boys) who were very effeminate. Its supposedly based upon a true story about the team from Lampang that won the Thai national championship.

IN the movie there was a great deal of homophobia exhibited by their Thai competing teams as well as some of the general public and volleyball officials.

Comments not neccesarily about the movie which are welcome but in general about homophobia in Thailand amongst Thai people.

[Guest]

That movie is now very old, and fairly accurately reflected the opposition they met at the time, noting that they were mostly katoeys, rather than 'regular' gays (for want of a better term)..

However, while some homophobia does exist in Thailand, things have improved very dramatically over the last 10 years or so, and it seems to be rare compared with western countries. Outrageously camp behaviour may not be popular in every quarter, but your 'average' gay encounters few problems in Thailand.

[phayao]

However, while some homophobia does exist in Thailand, things have improved very dramatically over the last 10 years or so, and it seems to be rare compared with western countries. Outrageously camp behaviour may not be popular in every quarter, but your 'average' gay encounters few problems in Thailand.

I've been coming regularly to Thailand for the past 18 years, spending two-three months every year, and I've NEVER encountered ANY homophobia here.

Khathoys are considered "funny", maybe "odd", but I've seen some of them working in normal jobs like travel agencies, hotels, restaurants, offices, shops, hospitals. To be honest I've never seen them working in the military, police, banks, air crews, education or goverment offices.

As regards social consideration in rural areas, gay men and women are perfectly integrated and I've never noticed any discrimination, only the usual "village gossip" as their sexual orientation, but without any derogatory remarks.

I wish all the countries in the world, including the "more advanced" ones, treat their gay and lesbian people, even minors, with the tolerance and respect they have here.

[Jingthing]

I have felt some very intsense Thai homophobia from Thai Muslims in South Thailand. Does that count as Thai homophobia? I think it does.

[endure]

I have felt some very intsense Thai homophobia from Thai Muslims in South Thailand. Does that count as Thai homophobia? I think it does.

When you say you've felt homophobia in the South, in what way was it exhibited?

[twschw]

Chan Tour has ladyboy bus hostesses and no one hassles them. I've never had a problem here. Back in Texas I was harassed regularly.

[Jingthing]

I have felt some very intsense Thai homophobia from Thai Muslims in South Thailand. Does that count as Thai homophobia? I think it does.

When you say you've felt homophobia in the South, in what way was it exhibited?

When travelling with my Thai boyfriend at the time, if looks could kill, we died many deaths. Mainly at Muslim oriented restaurants. I happen to like that kind of food, but I felt like I was a black man in the Jim Crow south. I was not imagining it. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

[endure]

It doesn't burst anything. I asked a simple question which you've answered. Thank you.

[tgeezer]

Just finished watching a Thai movie(DVD) titled Iron Ladies. Its about a Thai volleyball team composed almost entirely of katoes(lady boys) who were very effeminate. Its supposedly based upon a true story about the team from Lampang that won the Thai national championship.

IN the movie there was a great deal of homophobia exhibited by their Thai competing teams as well as some of the general public and volleyball officials.

Comments not neccesarily about the movie which are welcome but in general about homophobia in Thailand amongst Thai people.

I am told by Thais that there is no homophobia in Thailand, "there was a homosexual prime minister for heavens sake" What is objected to is the assault on Thai culture of partially clothed men and boys who are not katoeys parading through the streets. They don't seem to mind if you look the part, katoey but not too many in the same place at the same time. You can hardly blame Thais for that. Some object just as much to public displays of affection by any grown-ups, just as all cultures did at various times throughout their history. Noone likes to be forced into rapid change.

[PeaceBlondie]

There may not be a whole lot of transvestite/katoey ajarns, but there are some, and some obviously gay matayom teachers in some remote provinces. The same cinematic 'Thai homophobia' was exaggerated in Last Song, but that was a remake of a story from twenty years before. Times have changed; boys can come out as gay as early as 11 without much opposition except some joking about it.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, overall it is pretty good here. But don't most Thais think being gay or katoey is a punishment for bad deeds in a previous life?

[madcook]

I have felt some very intsense Thai homophobia from Thai Muslims in South Thailand. Does that count as Thai homophobia? I think it does.

When you say you've felt homophobia in the South, in what way was it exhibited?

When travelling with my Thai boyfriend at the time, if looks could kill, we died many deaths. Mainly at Muslim oriented restaurants. I happen to like that kind of food, but I felt like I was a black man in the Jim Crow south. I was not imagining it. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

Hi, I think it is an islamist view on Homosexuals, not Thai. I have several musilm guys working for me, and as far as they are concerned, homosexuality is an abomination of God, and that would be the same for any muslim, depsite which country they are from. It's a shame, but religion and sexuality is always a sensative area!

Best regards!

[madcook]

There is a fair amount of ignorance, certainly amongst quite a few of the British people i have encountered in bangkok. I go out a lot with My younger Brother (who is Thai- same English father) and we get talking to people. it's astonishing how many people assume that we are boyfriends, and admit they were wary about talking to us because we were gay. Needless to say, we don't stay friends or do business with them, lol

Best regards

[sfokevin]

Hi, I think it is an islamist view on Homosexuals, not Thai. I have several musilm guys working for me, and as far as they are concerned, homosexuality is an abomination of God, and that would be the same for any muslim, depsite which country they are from. It's a shame, but religion and sexuality is always a sensative area!

Best regards

So it is not a fear of us - just a religiously based hatred... (I think they have many of those...)

Strange for a religion that prays so much...

Edited January 14, 2008 by sfokevin

[madcook]

There is a fair amount of ignorance, certainly amongst quite a few of the British people i have encountered in bangkok. I go out a lot with My younger Brother (who is Thai- same English father) and we get talking to people. it's astonishing how many people assume that we are boyfriends, and admit they were wary about talking to us because we were gay. Needless to say, we don't stay friends or do business with them, lol

Best regards

So it is not a fear of us - just a religiously based hatred... (I think they have many of those...)

Strange for a religion that prays so much...

That's correct. I have the same issues with the Church. I am a practising Christian and have a deep faith, but i don't buy into the churches views on Homosexulity, single mothers, abortion, etc. I have always believed that god loves everyone. You have to remember also, the Bible, the Koran and all other holy books were written by men or women many thousands of years ago, and have been rewritten many times, and although i love reading the bible, i believe it is just a good book and not something to base my life on. With Islam, what the koran says is gospal and not open to discussion. i think hel_l will freeze over before muslims accept homosexuality!

Best regards

Edited January 14, 2008 by madcook

[Naam]

Hi, I think it is an islamist view on Homosexuals, not Thai. I have several musilm guys working for me, and as far as they are concerned, homosexuality is an abomination of God, and that would be the same for any muslim, depsite which country they are from. It's a shame, but religion and sexuality is always a sensative area!

So it is not a fear of us - just a religiously based hatred... (I think they have many of those...)

Strange for a religion that prays so much...

i don't think the expression "hatred" is warranted. all of us grew up and were mentally shaped by our parents, our teachers, our environment and (you name it). we were taught "this is acceptable" and "this is abominable". that goes for those of us too who were not influenced by religious parents or teachers. some things are still unacceptable although we were not specifically told that they are unacceptable. or do you find it not repulsive if you'd read the menue in a restaurant where you want to have dinner and "grilled cat filet" is mentioned?

blaming Islam because of its teaching "homosexuality is an abomination" is based on ignorance. that kind of "guidance" originates in the Bible and was integrated into the Qr'an several thousand years later.

“And with a man you shall not lie with as a man lies with a woman; it is an abomination”

Leviticus 18:22

“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.“

Leviticus 20:13

nowadays i feel quite often that intolerance and lack of understanding of gay people towards their fellow humans is as pronounced as vice versa. this bloody planet and its population needs another century to pass till being gay is accepted by (nearly) everybody without blinking an eye or raising an eyebrow!

[Ijustwannateach]

^Naam, when gay people start lynching straight people because they are straight- i.e., physically tormenting, mutilating, and then killing them- THEN we will have reached the same level of HATRED and intolerance- that some straight people have for us. You have no idea.

Thanks for reminding us of the biblical shit.

Getting back to the topic- only once in Thailand have I ever flirted with someone who reacted in a bad, angry, negative way. And that's flirting with them, not simply not being straight....

"S"

[PeaceBlondie]

Naam, since you mentioned Leviticus, 'abomination' just means 'ritually unclean,' such as eating pork, wearing fabrics of mixed textiles, or walking into the Holy of Holies if you're not an ordained priest. You violate such rules every day, and nobody accuses you of an abomination. My mating with another male is no more abominable than wearing a mixed cotton and polyester shirt.

Naam, I'll ask you not to insult us again with improper use of Biblical texts. Next time, you'll be issued a warning.

[kek]

Naam, since you mentioned Leviticus, 'abomination' just means 'ritually unclean,' such as eating pork, wearing fabrics of mixed textiles, or walking into the Holy of Holies if you're not an ordained priest. You violate such rules every day, and nobody accuses you of an abomination. My mating with another male is no more abominable than wearing a mixed cotton and polyester shirt.

Naam, I'll ask you not to insult us again with improper use of Biblical texts. Next time, you'll be issued a warning.

You will remember from your school maths class that when you multiply two negatives you get a positive.

So, to make sure that you don't offend anyone, always have polyester/cotton sheets on the bed when making love with your gay partner(s)

[Ijustwannateach]

Urgh... polyester is as aphrodisiac as fluorescent lighting... blah!

[Scott]

I have run into anti-gay sentiment in Thailand but I don't know that it would quite amount to homophobia. One of my best adult students and a good friend is 'homophobic' so to speak. He once told he 'hates' gays. He doesn't realize I am gay and I didn't pursue it with him--partly because I don't see him as really being the kind of person who 'hates' anyone--at least not anyone he knows.

I've run into a few people like this, but most people prefer to stay silent on the issue. At a minimum at least they don't follow it up with any action!

[peter991]

I wouldn't class it as homophobia (fear of gay people), but I have noticed the tolerance level of homosexuality varies enormously depending on where you are.

In my case, Thai bf number 1: Issan family - I was welcomed into the bf's family and remote village.

Thai bf number 2: University educated, government job, comes from a large family. He gets constant pressure from his parents, brothers and sisters to get a gf, settle down, get married and have kids. No way I am ever going to get introduced to his family, which is a shame.

Peter

[Naam]

Naam, since you mentioned Leviticus, 'abomination' just means 'ritually unclean,' such as eating pork, wearing fabrics of mixed textiles, or walking into the Holy of Holies if you're not an ordained priest. You violate such rules every day, and nobody accuses you of an abomination. My mating with another male is no more abominable than wearing a mixed cotton and polyester shirt.

Naam, I'll ask you not to insult us again with improper use of Biblical texts. Next time, you'll be issued a warning.

i don't understand at all PeaceBlondie. where is the insult? i stated a fact to counter

quote: "just a religiously based hatred... (I think they have many of those...) Strange for a religion that prays so much..."

[flame deleted]

quite obviously i have misjudged you (and others) completely. a fair discussion is not possible although it's a subject that concerns your fellow heteros too. that's sad but it can't be helped.

[rgs2001uk]

Hi, I think it is an islamist view on Homosexuals, not Thai. I have several musilm guys working for me, and as far as they are concerned, homosexuality is an abomination of God, and that would be the same for any muslim, depsite which country they are from. It's a shame, but religion and sexuality is always a sensative area!

So it is not a fear of us - just a religiously based hatred... (I think they have many of those...)

Strange for a religion that prays so much...

i don't think the expression "hatred" is warranted. all of us grew up and were mentally shaped by our parents, our teachers, our environment and (you name it). we were taught "this is acceptable" and "this is abominable". that goes for those of us too who were not influenced by religious parents or teachers. some things are still unacceptable although we were not specifically told that they are unacceptable. or do you find it not repulsive if you'd read the menue in a restaurant where you want to have dinner and "grilled cat filet" is mentioned?

blaming Islam because of its teaching "homosexuality is an abomination" is based on ignorance. that kind of "guidance" originates in the Bible and was integrated into the Qr'an several thousand years later.

good dr, i am not usually one to split hairs, and i know you meant to write several hundred years later.

i believe the oldest bible in its purest form was written in about 397 ad.

i wont bore you with the history of the bible and the fact that the roman churchs version has 7 chapters more than the non church of romes version, that of course doesnt inlude the chapters that were rejected by the church of rome, not to talk of the dead sea scrolls, and other texts that were rejected by the church of rome, but thats another matter for the dan brown conspiracy theorists among us

the oldest quran, as follows.

In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a, in Yemen, laborers working in a loft between the structure's inner and outer roofs stumbled across a remarkable gravesite, although they did not realize it at the time. Their ignorance was excusable: mosques do not normally house graves, and this site contained no tombstones, no human remains, no funereal jewelry. It contained nothing more, in fact, than an unappealing mash of old parchment and paper documents -- damaged books and individual pages of Arabic text, fused together by centuries of rain and dampness, gnawed into over the years by rats and insects. Intent on completing the task at hand, the laborers gathered up the manuscripts, pressed them into some twenty potato sacks, and set them aside on the staircase of one of the mosque's minarets, where they were locked away -- and where they would probably have been forgotten once again, were it not for Qadhi Isma'il al-Akwa', then the president of the Yemeni Antiquities Authority, who realized the potential importance of the find. Al-Akwa' sought international assistance in examining and preserving the fragments, and in 1979 managed to interest a visiting German scholar, who in turn persuaded the German government to organize and fund a restoration project. Soon after the project began, it became clear that the hoard was a fabulous example of what is sometimes referred to as a "paper grave" -- in this case the resting place for, among other things, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different parchment codices of the Koran, the Muslim holy scripture. In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read.

Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.

i dont know the arabic for perostroika or glasnost, but until islam goes through its own version of the reformation the big house near to taif will continue to be filled with innocents whose only crime is to be branded insane and incarcerated by the mad mullahs for being unwilling or unable to accept the said mullahs interpretation of the quran. perhaps the same innocents are in some way related to martin luther or george wishart.

anyway have a pleasant evening

"And with a man you shall not lie with as a man lies with a woman; it is an abomination"

Leviticus 18:22

"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Leviticus 20:13

nowadays i feel quite often that intolerance and lack of understanding of gay people towards their fellow humans is as pronounced as vice versa. this bloody planet and its population needs another century to pass till being gay is accepted by (nearly) everybody without blinking an eye or raising an eyebrow!

[tgeezer]

I have run into anti-gay sentiment in Thailand but I don't know that it would quite amount to homophobia. One of my best adult students and a good friend is 'homophobic' so to speak. He once told he 'hates' gays. He doesn't realize I am gay and I didn't pursue it with him--partly because I don't see him as really being the kind of person who 'hates' anyone--at least not anyone he knows.

I've run into a few people like this, but most people prefer to stay silent on the issue. At a minimum at least they don't follow it up with any action!

Wouldn't you say that this is the way it should be, what is to discuss? He is probably well aware that you are gay and does not want any complications in the relationship.

[Jingthing]

I wouldn't class it as homophobia (fear of gay people),

Peter

First thing might be to look at a definition of homophobia. It is not limited to fear although it is understandable that many people make that assumption based on the word phobia:

Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia

Pronunciation: h-m-f-b-

Function: noun

: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Edited January 15, 2008 by Jingthing

[Naam]

good dr, i am not usually one to split hairs, and i know you meant to write several hundred years later.

i believe the oldest bible in its purest form was written in about 397 ad.

i strongly beg to differ my good friend. of course we could argue what was written and what was "delivered" from generation to generation. in any case, as far as the "Old Testament" is concerned, we are not talking about centuries but milleniae. and if we talk about old hebrew and/or aramaeic scriptures then the difference in time till that time when the Qr'an was written down is a few thousand years. but that's all besides the point

the point is what can be done, changed, clarified to close the gap or reduce the animosity between gays and heteros. i agree that it's heteros who should be educated and taught more tolerance. i agree that from the side of heteros more animosity exists than vice versa. but i object that those of us "straight" ones who are eager to reach out to our fellow gay man or neighbour are told "p*ss off buddy and mind the pussy you are after!" that inspite of the well known fact that even we heteros are not always after pussy only

all in my [not so] humble opinion.

edit: i forgot to mention that i object and will try to ridicule and if necessary kick @ss of any uneducated [my mother told me not to use dirty expressions] who makes racist remarks, tries to put down any ethnic group/nationality or make derogatory remarks about any religion.

exceptions accepted when it's clearly recognizable as a joke.

Edited January 15, 2008 by Naam

[endure]

Might I remind you all that this is the gay forum. It's a place for gay folks and their friends to hang out in. It's NOT a place where we're expected to justify our existence and defend ourselves. It you can't cope with that then it's not the place for you.

[farang prince]

good dr, i am not usually one to split hairs, and i know you meant to write several hundred years later.

i believe the oldest bible in its purest form was written in about 397 ad.

i strongly beg to differ my good friend. of course we could argue what was written and what was "delivered" from generation to generation. in any case, as far as the "Old Testament" is concerned, we are not talking about centuries but milleniae. and if we talk about old hebrew and/or aramaeic scriptures then the difference in time till that time when the Qr'an was written down is a few thousand years. but that's all besides the point

the point is what can be done, changed, clarified to close the gap or reduce the animosity between gays and heteros. i agree that it's heteros who should be educated and taught more tolerance. i agree that from the side of heteros more animosity exists than vice versa. but i object that those of us "straight" ones who are eager to reach out to our fellow gay man or neighbour are told "p*ss off buddy and mind the pussy you are after!" that inspite of the well known fact that even we heteros are not always after pussy only

all in my [not so] humble opinion.

edit: i forgot to mention that i object and will try to ridicule and if necessary kick @ss of any uneducated [my mother told me not to use dirty expressions] who makes racist remarks, tries to put down any ethnic group/nationality or make derogatory remarks about any religion.

exceptions accepted when it's clearly recognizable as a joke.

Naam, I believe your sincerity when it comes to defending gay men who have been the target of racist remarks. I hope you understand the sensitivity that some gays feel when the gospel is thrust upon them. We've heard it for a long time. It is remarkable to me how some gays can maintain their religious beliefs when the Bible or the Queran or any other religious writings are used to slap them in the face. In this forum, Thai Visa has decreed that gays should feel safe from attack by other posters and thus are open to post their most honest and intimate thoughts (well, within reason). You and I have exchanged a lot of thoughts over the past years on other topics, so I know your level of intellect and passion for issues involving Thailand. Go in peace, Bro'.

[Naam]

I hope you understand the sensitivity that some gays feel when the gospel is thrust upon them.

Go in peace, Bro'.

i am trying hard to understand Prince and i'm trying hard to refrain making any additional comments (no matter how much i am itching to do so). i also thank you for your comments.