Can We Make Chiang Mai A Better Place To Live?

[Priceless]

My sincere apologies to any and all moderators and an equally sincere Thank You to cmsally It appears that my brain got (temporarily?) disconnected and I confused the two current pollution threads.

/ Priceless

[Donnyboy]

It appears that my brain got (temporarily?) disconnected and I confused the two current pollution threads.

/ Priceless

perhaps from too much smoke inhalation

Edited January 22, 2008 by Donnyboy

[Ta22]

Like the choice of not drinking the SODA .

you can not breath the FUME >. choose wisely where you bring your kids .

and where you rent your house .

i Know the city is Full of fume .. so i stay near the RIM of the city on the super highway .. lot of green in my house .. and a huge garden to proven the fume and disgest the monoxide ..

i know some place in Amercia that dobn't have any kinda of Cars ,

there build their own house farm their own FOOD .

and kids grow up .. in great nature . you can go do some search ..

If you are just posting here Hoping that .. people who read it going to say you got one super idea or . give you all the support

well sometime thinking aloud and reality is different ..

here is just a wake up call for you to tell you that not everyone agree with you in all your point

for an instant i don't agree with you in full some point but not all

to you it look like creative and great idea , to me it seem like you going to upset my balance of this great city .

please don't try to please me and don't let me stop you .

all great man start from .. giving super idea that nobody agree .

but don't let your wisdom fool you :same go for me

[Blinky Bill]

Like the choice of not drinking the SODA .

you can not breath the FUME >. choose wisely where you bring your kids .

and where you rent your house .

i Know the city is Full of fume .. so i stay near the RIM of the city on the super highway .. lot of green in my house .. and a huge garden to proven the fume and disgest the monoxide ..

i know some place in Amercia that dobn't have any kinda of Cars ,

there build their own house farm their own FOOD .

and kids grow up .. in great nature . you can go do some search ..

If you are just posting here Hoping that .. people who read it going to say you got one super idea or . give you all the support

well sometime thinking aloud and reality is different ..

here is just a wake up call for you to tell you that not everyone agree with you in all your point

for an instant i don't agree with you in full some point but not all

to you it look like creative and great idea , to me it seem like you going to upset my balance of this great city .

please don't try to please me and don't let me stop you .

all great man start from .. giving super idea that nobody agree .

but don't let your wisdom fool you :same go for me

Yoda has spoken............................BTW Maxi how is mum and the missus? Is your wife's name Mini? Look forward to seeing you soon.

Edited January 22, 2008 by Blinky Bill

[Ta22]

Yo bb , my mom is fine she got new hobby collecting herbal plant around chiangmai and making me drink most of the mixture . My pa is inventing machine and making muscial device . My wife is half my size half my weight so i guess you are right to call her mini .any way her name is ann. Love your adventure life style keep it up

[Ta22]

Yo bb , my mom is fine she got new hobby collecting herbal plant around chiangmai and making me drink most of the mixture . My pa is inventing machine and making muscial device . My wife is half my size half my weight so i guess you are right to call her mini .any way her name is ann. Love your adventure life style keep it up

[JimsKnight]

Some cryptic responses here!

Alternatively just buy a filter and wear it while in the smog-zones

[Crow Boy]

Guys,

just catching up on the forum after a couple of days off line.

1) the point made originally re the cost of repair versus cost of fuel was in my opinion a valid point and an interesting.

2) the use of the photographs was I am suggesting as an illustration of extreme emissions not inferring that they were taken of vehicles in CM. Yes he could have taken photographs of similar vehicles in CM or he could have put in a disclaimer that the photographs were sourced from googlepics or similar.

3) there have been numerous off topic and not within the rules re "playing nicely"

4) there are a couple of posts re moderators deleting posts - this is off topic and contravene the rules ie "no comments about moderation". If anyone thinks their post has been deleted the process is to send a PM to one of the mods or to report a post in the thread and ask what happened to it. FYI - the standard process for deleting posts is for the mod who deleted it to send a PM to the poster and tell them that it has been deleted and why.

5) this is an interesting thread and personally I prefer it to yet another "where can I get a hamburger in CM?" thread so let's all behave civilly and make reasoned discussion not snippy replies.

regards

CB

[Loom]

It just blows me away that so many of you have personally attacked me and my post. I was looking for suggestions and a bit of facts so that I could implement my ideas.

No surprise to me. The business owners who post in this forum want to discredit any comments about air pollution that might discourage tourist visitors.

There are Thais who are unhappy about air pollution and the high level of respiratory illness in Chiangmai. They have encouraged us to plant trees, use organic waste for making compost and to report cases of illegal burning to the Environmental office.

The village in Hang Dong where the Urban Development Institute (Chiang Mai based) used grant money to educated locals about the negative consequences of air pollution was the source of the greatest number of complaints about air pollution received by the regional Environmental Office last year.

[Ulysses G.]

It just blows me away that so many of you have personally attacked me and my post. I was looking for suggestions and a bit of facts so that I could implement my ideas.

No surprise to me. The business owners who post in this forum want to discredit any comments about air pollution that might discourage tourist visitors.

How about Priceless who has no local business and knows more about pollution that all of the Wheezing Wingers put together.

[Priceless]

It just blows me away that so many of you have personally attacked me and my post. I was looking for suggestions and a bit of facts so that I could implement my ideas.

No surprise to me. The business owners who post in this forum want to discredit any comments about air pollution that might discourage tourist visitors.

How about Priceless who has no local business and knows more about pollution that all of the Wheezing Wingers put together.

Actually I am not an expert on pollution, I just have a passion for fact as opposed to myth. I do not have a background in environmental science, nor in medicine. I do however have some insight into statistics, which makes me start wondering when somebody states e.g. that Chiang Mai has the highest incidence of lung cancer in all of Thailand and the second highest in the world, while implying that this is solely caused by the air pollution.

Since I happen to know from the website of the Pollution Control Department that Chiang Mai is not by a long shot the most polluted province in Thailand (e.g. Saraburi, Samut Prakarn and even Lampang are much worse), I start wondering about the "fact" of high frequency of lung cancer. As stated above I am not trained in medicine, but I know enough about epidemiology to know that one of the greatest problems in the field is eliminating all other causal relationships before you can study one in particular. Has the source of the factoid "the highest incidence of lung cancer in Thailand" eliminated all other explanations/influences, such as gender and age distribution, frequency of tobacco smoking, average income/living standard, access to and quality of medical care etc, etc?

It seems to me that, if the air pollution is the sole or main cause of respiratory diseases, people should be dying by the hundreds in the streets of Samut Prakarn and Saraburi, that have three to four times the frequency of extreme air pollution that Chiang Mai has. It is possible that Chiang Mai has the second highest frequency of lung cancer in the world, but I would venture to say that if so, the reasons must be much more complex than just the air pollution.

Now that I've got that off my chest, I'd like to state that I agree 100% with the OP and others that try to suggest different ways that we, the expat community in Chiang Mai, can help reducing the air and other kinds of pollution here. There is absolutely nothing positive about pollution and it is worthy of all the efforts we can make to reduce it. Personally I haven't found many ways to contribute much by e.g. tree planting on my 100 square wah leased land, but I do see to it that everything in the household that can be recycled actually is, I drive a modern car with a well tuned-up engine etc. If somebody has a good idea on how we expats can contribute in a constructive way (i.e. not by scaremongering or whining) please post here or send me a PM, I'd be glad to help in any small way that I can.

I do believe that education and increasing awareness are the long term solutions to much of this problem. The reason I posted the lyrics by Tom Lehrer earlier in this thread was that I thought it was very interesting that 40 years ago this was presented as a major local problem in San Francisco. Today California has to a very large extent cleaned up its act and is actually among the world leaders in combating global warming and other effects of pollution. There may be hope for Chiang Mai and the rest of Thailand as well, but there are certainly no quick fixes. Loose talk and scaremongering will however get us nowhere.

/ Priceless

[mobile69]

Try googling "radon chiang mai lung cancer"

Over 1000 links listed...

[Priceless]

Try googling "radon chiang mai lung cancer"

Over 1000 links listed...

Exactly, I just listed a few of the probably 100's of background variables (risk factors) that you would have to eliminate before you can put the lung cancer blame squarely at the air pollution. Radon is also in some ways a much nastier (i.e. more difficult) problem, since this is a naturally occurring risk factor. Does anybody know if the grey cement building blocks that are so commonly used here contain any radon? They used to in my old home country...

/ Priceless

[Ta22]

GOOGLE RESULT

Results 1 - 10 of about 42,000 for chiangmai death by sex.

Results 1 - 10 of about 8,390 for Kill by Bicycle in chiangmai

Results 1 - 10 of about 553 for Choke to death by Eating Hamburger in chiangmai

Results 1 - 10 of about 921 for Kill by driver in chiangmai while trying to sell him a tune up package

Results 1 - 10 of about 10,800 for kill in chiangmai while walking

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,500 for radon chiang mai lung cancer

COMPARE

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,950 for death from breathing too much fresh air in chiangmai

My point hto this is such that Goolge search result is load of shit .usually unrelated

Results 1 - 10 of about 164,000 for Death from crossing the road in chiangmai

wow there is 164,000 related link to death from crossing the road in chiangmai -

maybe we have a bigger Road problem then lung cancer here.

relatively eating tofu is much safer

cos

Results 1 - 10 of about 747 for death from eating Tofu in chiangmai

last but not least here is one for the winner

Results 1 - 10 of about 38,000 for found 1 million baht in chiangmai

not sure if this post is related . but i am just trying to point out that . info that is not fully digested is usually junk

[Priceless]

not sure if this post is related . but i am just trying to point out that . info that is not fully digested is usually junk

Exactly!!!

/ Priceless

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

not sure if this post is related . but i am just trying to point out that . info that is not fully digested is usually junk

Exactly!!!

/ Priceless

before you get too carried away air pollution has been conclusively shown to cause arteriosclerosis in the same way smoking does. You may not die from a pulmonary heart disease but your not going to get healthier with hardening of the arteries. Denial can only get you so far. Physics and cause and effect cut thru denial like the proverbial hot knife thru butter.

[Priceless]

not sure if this post is related . but i am just trying to point out that . info that is not fully digested is usually junk

Exactly!!!

/ Priceless

before you get too carried away air pollution has been conclusively shown to cause arteriosclerosis in the same way smoking does. You may not die from a pulmonary heart disease but your not going to get healthier with hardening of the arteries. Denial can only get you so far. Physics and cause and effect cut thru denial like the proverbial hot knife thru butter.

And your point is?

Nowhere have I denied the many negative aspects/effects of air pollution. What I have tried to point out is:

1/ There are many contributing factors in causing different respiratory diseases.

2/ The air quality in Chiang Mai can and should undoubtedly be improved, but it is in no way the worst in Thailand, much less in the world.

3/ Last year's pollution level was undoubtedly one of the worst ever (largely due to the unusually persistent inversion that we experienced). Still, if one accepts the Thai government's target level of maximum 120 microgrammes of PM<10 per cubic metre, this was exceeded during 30 of the year's 365 days, 23 of them during the month of March.

4/ If you are particularly susceptible to respiratory problems it is probably a good idea to settle somewhere on the coast (though avoid the area near to Bangkok like the plague).

5/ If you just generally don't like the idea of air pollution, and have the opportunity, it might be a good idea to take your yearly holiday away from Chiang Mai during the month of March.

6/ For the sake of your health, scrupulously avoid smoke-filled indoor establishments like bars and restaurants

I have heard of, and read postings from, several people that have left or are leaving Chiang Mai due to their perception that it is dangerous to live here. I feel a little bit sorry for those of them that have been mislead by misinformed scaremongers, just like I feel sorry for my asthmatic friend that actually had to leave due to last March's conditions.

Basically I think that everybody has a right to information, and an equal right to be spared desinformation. That way we can hopefully make reasonable decisions based on that information, our own particular situations and our preferences. Isn't that better than hasty decisions based on incorrect or exaggerated information?

/ Priceless

[Ulysses G.]

I have heard of, and read postings from, several people that have left or are leaving Chiang Mai due to their perception that it is dangerous to live here. I feel a little bit sorry for those of them that have been mislead by misinformed scaremongers, just like I feel sorry for my asthmatic friend that actually had to leave due to last March's conditions.

Basically I think that everybody has a right to information, and an equal right to be spared desinformation. That way we can hopefully make reasonable decisions based on that information, our own particular situations and our preferences. Isn't that better than hasty decisions based on incorrect or exaggerated information?

/ Priceless

Bravo, finally the voice of reason!

[mobs00]

Ok, ok. We seem to be getting off topic and starting another " pollution thread/bad air/lots of complaining". I was asking for any facts or ideas on how I can use my resources to make the situation a bit better. Let's get back on track, as of now I really have not got much in line with what I was looking for.

And Ta22 before you start going off topic again and showing us your "google" skills, do me a favor and spare me the read.

[Priceless]

Ok, ok. We seem to be getting off topic and starting another " pollution thread/bad air/lots of complaining". I was asking for any facts or ideas on how I can use my resources to make the situation a bit better. Let's get back on track, as of now I really have not got much in line with what I was looking for.

And Ta22 before you start going off topic again and showing us your "google" skills, do me a favor and spare me the read.

I am unfortunately (but not so uncommonly a bit low on great and/or innovative ideas at the moment. But as I stated above, I think that aiming for a long-term change of attitude and ideas among our Thai hosts is the only way towards success. Do our teacher friends have any ideas of what could be done through the schools?

If anyone comes up with a good idea of some sort, I'd be glad if I can contribute some way

/ Priceless

[mobs00]

Through this link Air Quality in Thailand Priceless posted on another thread I found some great information in the drop down menu.

http://www.pcd.go.th/info_serv/en_air_straw.htm

This is an alternative to burning rice straw. Although it is in Thai and I can not read it, this is similiar to what I am looking for as far as an educational tool. Something a bit more geared towards children though.

Edited January 23, 2008 by mobs00

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

not sure if this post is related . but i am just trying to point out that . info that is not fully digested is usually junk

Exactly!!!

/ Priceless

before you get too carried away air pollution has been conclusively shown to cause arteriosclerosis in the same way smoking does. You may not die from a pulmonary heart disease but your not going to get healthier with hardening of the arteries. Denial can only get you so far. Physics and cause and effect cut thru denial like the proverbial hot knife thru butter.

And your point is?

Nowhere have I denied the many negative aspects/effects of air pollution. What I have tried to point out is:

1/ There are many contributing factors in causing different respiratory diseases.

2/ The air quality in Chiang Mai can and should undoubtedly be improved, but it is in no way the worst in Thailand, much less in the world.

3/ Last year's pollution level was undoubtedly one of the worst ever (largely due to the unusually persistent inversion that we experienced). Still, if one accepts the Thai government's target level of maximum 120 microgrammes of PM<10 per cubic metre, this was exceeded during 30 of the year's 365 days, 23 of them during the month of March.

4/ If you are particularly susceptible to respiratory problems it is probably a good idea to settle somewhere on the coast (though avoid the area near to Bangkok like the plague).

5/ If you just generally don't like the idea of air pollution, and have the opportunity, it might be a good idea to take your yearly holiday away from Chiang Mai during the month of March.

6/ For the sake of your health, scrupulously avoid smoke-filled indoor establishments like bars and restaurants

I have heard of, and read postings from, several people that have left or are leaving Chiang Mai due to their perception that it is dangerous to live here. I feel a little bit sorry for those of them that have been mislead by misinformed scaremongers, just like I feel sorry for my asthmatic friend that actually had to leave due to last March's conditions.

Basically I think that everybody has a right to information, and an equal right to be spared desinformation. That way we can hopefully make reasonable decisions based on that information, our own particular situations and our preferences. Isn't that better than hasty decisions based on incorrect or exaggerated information?

/ Priceless

It's all good advice but quite few here have been trying to obfuscate the negative health consequences of CM's air pollution with spurious arguments that CM pollution is a not a direct cause of death like getting hit by a bus etc. My point since you asked is that CM's air pollution a significant negative health issue even if its not listed as the cause of death on someones death certificate.

[Mapguy]

Through this link Air Quality in Thailand Priceless posted on another thread I found some great information in the drop down menu.

http://www.pcd.go.th/info_serv/en_air_straw.htm

This is an alternative to burning rice straw. Although it is in Thai and I can not read it, this is similiar to what I am looking for as far as an educational tool. Something a bit more geared towards children though.

This should be forwarded to the governor of the province. The burning has already begun in earnest.

Otherwise, what can be done? Here's how to join a group that is already organized.

Here is apparently a correct email for signing on with a group consisting of Thai and expat residents that is organized to tackle the air pollution problem. I post it with an apology from Mark Whitman who gave the wrong email address in last week's Chiang Mai Mail which, I regret to say, still doesn't know what a copy editor is. I did indeed complain. And the phone number that was given didn't answer, either!!

Anyway, Mark wrote this week:

Note: Apologies to readers of the report on the International Citizens of Chiang Mai meeting in this column last week. I wrongly transcribed the e-mail address of the group. It should read [email protected]. My mistake entirely - sorry for anyone who tried the slightly different address.

This topic started out with encouragement for others to make suggestions about what to do to help alleviate what is clearly a problem. No, Chiang Mai is not the most polluted city in Thailand or the world. Yes, it does take time to solve such a problem since it does have economic consequences, not least for folks who can't afford engine tune-ups. And so on!

How about a prize for the person who comes up with an email address of the governor and of the mayor? How about telephone numbers?

[lannarebirth]

How about a prize for the person who comes up with an email address of the governor and of the mayor? How about telephone numbers?

Probably in here somewhere:

http://www.eppo.go.th/index_thaigov.html

[Priceless]

before you get too carried away air pollution has been conclusively shown to cause arteriosclerosis in the same way smoking does. You may not die from a pulmonary heart disease but your not going to get healthier with hardening of the arteries. Denial can only get you so far. Physics and cause and effect cut thru denial like the proverbial hot knife thru butter.

It's all good advice but quite few here have been trying to obfuscate the negative health consequences of CM's air pollution with spurious arguments that CM pollution is a not a direct cause of death like getting hit by a bus etc. My point since you asked is that CM's air pollution a significant negative health issue even if its not listed as the cause of death on someones death certificate.

Fair enough, but I think you did a rather poor job of getting that across. If you look at the highlighted quote above, I find it rather difficult understanding that you meant to point out that Chiang Mai's air quality is detrimental to one's health. Of course it is, just like everybody (almost) knows that smoking is. What I have tried to point out is:

1/ The air quality in Chiang Mai is not as bad as some people like to make it appear.

2/ Bad air quality is one of many causal factors in creating respiratory (and other) diseases.

On a side note: My father smoked 4-5 packs of unfiltered cigarettes per day for 50 years, until he died aged 70 from causes completely unrelated to smoking. This in no way makes me deny the detrimental effects of smoking, but it made me realize that there are many contributing factors and it is virtually impossible to predict the outcome for an individual. As a matter of fact it is almost impossible to determine the causal factors in retrospect, even during an autopsy (my medical friends have told me).

/ Priceless

[BlackArtemis]

[Mapguy]

Your point is to ask if anyone sees a mountain out there?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

before you get too carried away air pollution has been conclusively shown to cause arteriosclerosis in the same way smoking does. You may not die from a pulmonary heart disease but your not going to get healthier with hardening of the arteries. Denial can only get you so far. Physics and cause and effect cut thru denial like the proverbial hot knife thru butter.

It's all good advice but quite few here have been trying to obfuscate the negative health consequences of CM's air pollution with spurious arguments that CM pollution is a not a direct cause of death like getting hit by a bus etc. My point since you asked is that CM's air pollution a significant negative health issue even if its not listed as the cause of death on someones death certificate.

Fair enough, but I think you did a rather poor job of getting that across. If you look at the highlighted quote above, I find it rather difficult understanding that you meant to point out that Chiang Mai's air quality is detrimental to one's health. Of course it is, just like everybody (almost) knows that smoking is. What I have tried to point out is:

1/ The air quality in Chiang Mai is not as bad as some people like to make it appear.

2/ Bad air quality is one of many causal factors in creating respiratory (and other) diseases.

On a side note: My father smoked 4-5 packs of unfiltered cigarettes per day for 50 years, until he died aged 70 from causes completely unrelated to smoking. This in no way makes me deny the detrimental effects of smoking, but it made me realize that there are many contributing factors and it is virtually impossible to predict the outcome for an individual. As a matter of fact it is almost impossible to determine the causal factors in retrospect, even during an autopsy (my medical friends have told me).

/ Priceless

Your right I hit reply to your post and was really responding to Ta22 and UG more than your post. My mistake.

Sure I agree 100% its difficult to determine exact causes. In Thailand like most countries the #1 and #2 causes of death are Cardiovascular disease and Cancer in that order. Smoking is considered by researchers to be the #1 cause of Cardiovascular disease and the #1 or #2 cause of Cancer depending on the country. Air pollutions statistical effect is murky because its not a binary factor like "smoking or non smoking" Public health issues are concerned with large numbers. If a person smokes then statistically they are more likely to die from CV disease. Its true some will be lucky and die from different causes but that in no way changes the public policy implications. It's just more difficult to determine individual levels of exposure to air pollution because many behaviors determine exact exposure. It has been noted by researchers that traffic police in countries like China have very much shortened lifespans partially due to air pollution. I think I read the avg lifespan in China for traffic police was 40 and change.

When you say CM air pollution is not as bad as some people state. Highly subjective interpretation of "others statements". I guess it would be more useful to compare actual CM air pollution to other world cities. Many may not know that Thailand cities are bad also. Perhaps that is a surprise to some. On a relative world basis CM air quality is not so hot. I would certainly rank it better than many cities in China, India and Vietnam but that is not saying a lot. I would expect CM to be in the bottom 25 or 30% of world cities.

[BlackArtemis]

Your point is to ask if anyone sees a mountain out there?

No I photoshopped a bunch of giant hepa filters / ionic breezes on the roof tops.

[ZEAK]

I have just realized that my two latest posts to this thread have been deleted by somebody. Though I know and accept that moderators are entrusted with the authority to delete whatever they please, I fail to understand what was offensive in these two posts. The first one basically just contained a graph from the Pollution Control Department showing the current level of small particle pollution. The second post was just an ackowledgement of George's comment to my post. I would appreciate if the person who deleted my posts sent me a PM explaining what was offensve in them, so that I can avoid such statements in the future.

On a more general note, I thought it was customary for a moderator to ackowledge when he/she has deleted posts. Doing it anonymously I think is not really in keeping with the generally friendly and open atmosphere of Thai Visa.

/ Priceless

Guess the mods are keeping in line with the current military leaders.

Who controls the past controls the present, who controls the present controls the future.

Opps, just read page 2. Sorry mods. Keep up the good work!

Edited January 24, 2008 by ZEAK