Farang Sometimes Have To Be Surrugate Father Figure For Thai B/f

[cm-happy]

As per the TOPIC TITLE AND DESCRIPTION, there is much more to having a Thai b/f other than just a roll in the sack!

How many of us turn out to be surrugate fathers for our boyfriends. I don't mean providing shelter, food, some dosh but much more encouragement, guidance, mentoring, all the other things a good caring father would provide. Physical, psycholgical emotional needs of our beloved and cherished partner.

[Guest]

I have a friend who is exactly that - a father figure for his bf. The bf's father died two years ago, and his mother abandoned him when he was young. His closest relative, a grandmother also died recently, and the bf has been left as one of only two remaining family members. The other is a 13 year old girl. The bf, at the age of 23, has had to adopt and be responsible for the girl. now legally his daughter. No wonder he looks to his farang bf for comfort, advice, direction, and consolation.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Guest

[stevepattaya]

For those of us lucky enough to have a younger, loving boyfriend, isn't this the role we should be adopting? To mentor, encourage their growth and emotionally support them through lifes turmoils. This should be a major (though perhaps unappreciated by some of them), part of the older/younger relationship. I am lucky that my bf does appreciate what his falang family has done for him (and I'm not talking about material possessions!)

[twschw]

I am not old enough to be my partners father thus we both are at about the same level emotionally. We encourage, support and guide each other. I'm not sure I would be comfortable being a father figure and a lover at the same time

[Ijustwannateach]

I've seen this happening in some relationships... it can, I think, be a positive thing. It's probably one of the better reasons for younger guys to date older guys.

No personal experience with this, exactly, but once or twice I've sometimes felt oddly like a big brother....

"S"

[jdinasia]

Other than the word mentoring ... wouldn't all of those things be the norm in ANY relationship? I doubt that 'mentoring' is a good word for what most of us that have relationships with Thais do. Personally all I really do in that way is give a different perspective.

[dukkha]

Interesting to read this today. Last night I had a thai, gay, male friend stay with me on his way through bangkok to Hong Kong...we met when he was 23 and I was 55, 7 years have elapsed..his comments were interesting on this point..to quote him " Thai guys can never love an old farang, but they can have a caring disposition, akin to what an older brother or even father figure represents in their own culture....but dont ever expect love in the sense that two gay males from the same culture and approximate age group regularly have...he even went so far as to say...thai guys will tell you what you want to hear, heard that one before, but it is essentially a financial arrangement...so you can accept it is that and get on with the relationship but dont fool yourself that you are a love object in the 'normal' sense of relationships..sure I can hear many voices who may not agree...it was just interesting to come from this lad who, ulnlike many thais, does not have difficulty in speaking straightfowardly and openly...sure they will care for you in your dottage and decline but it is not 'love'...and he said that I am kidding myself to think that it is....not an astonishingly new take on the thai/farang relationships but did make sense....I think it is a fact both in gay and straight relationships that 90% of people prefer their own kind...meaning that maybe 10% of causcasians are attracted to asians and 10% of asians are attracted to causcasians..however living in LOS I think we often get a skewed picture of it all...and on the point of age, asians are not repulsed by age in any physical sense in the way that for me, as an over 60 year old would have great difficulty in my own western culture attracting a partner much younger than myself...we all know the body fascism of some gay people and have experienced being thrown of the trash heap when we are no longer trim, taut and terrific...in saying all this I think one can still enter a relationship with a younger thai man but maybe not be fooled that it is a reciprocal level of love being expressed... Dukkha

[popshirt]

Dukkha, I couldn't agree with you more. I met my bf when he was 24 and I a sixty-something. It began as a dad-son situation and rather quickly developed into a partner/lover relationship. We have been together for three years now and every day in every way he shows that he loves me. I try to do the same. But I realize that his pragmatic Eastern view of a lifetime partnership does involve financial security as well as social status. In his eyes, and those of his family, he has "married well". He is a middle class Thai, graduated from the best university in Thailand and is working towards a MBA degree. He is taking other advanced courses at night in academic English. The educational gap between us is closing and he is doing well in his work. I am delighted to have such a son and a partner/lover. His family is delighted also and supports us completely. (His dad is young enough to be my son as well!) Nor do I spend vast amounts of money on him or his family. They don't really need it.

But this would not have happened if I had clung to the western notion of romantic love in all its dreamy complexity which is reinforced by Hollywood and the media in general.

What I learned in the west about relationships and love has not really been useful in my Thai-farang relationship. For example, our western need to "process" and talk things out simply doesn't fly with a Thai. And to expect or even look for a sweep-me-off-my-feet romance is unrealistic in Thai culture.

I realize this is just my opinion but I have been very observant in the years I've spent in Thailand and I believe it is reality.

[PeaceBlondie]

As usual, it depends. My b/f does not need much emotional support; he was 35 when we met. However, immature 20-somethings need guidance. Most kids grow up, but it takes a long time (my boys did not become responsible until 24 or 28), and a Thai-farang relationship has special strains. Elder brother is a good metaphor.

[dukkha]

To Pop and PB, nice to have some positive feed back...often when one posts it is an attack rather than something

constructive that is offered... Dukkha

[dadboy]

Sexually and emotionally I am genuinely attracted to older guys . Probably missing my father when I was young has something to do with it, I don't know. I believe inter-generational relationship is quite common in general than we think, Well at least I know quite a few couple like that in Australia, I was 20 and my partner was 43 when we first met, I didn't have any other gay relationship prior to that, I didn't know what to expect or how to live in a same sex relationship. On the other hand my partner had a 17 years relationship with the same guy. So he gave me all the mental supports and guidance that I needed . Do I feel like a son to him, yes I do, sometimes. He is much wiser than me, and his decisions are not always bad as mine.

Edited January 23, 2008 by dadboy

[expatwannabe]

To say that a Thai gay cannot or will not ever love his foreign boyfriend is ridiculous.

How can you stereotype every single Thai?

How do you know what every single one is feeling?

Of course, that line of thought does support the fantasy of going from boy to boy, using them as just playthings for a few hundred Baht.

I'm sure that's not your motivation at all.

[stevepattaya]

Well I can spot more than a thread of truth in all the various responses in this post, and have witnessed (too?) many times the varying complexities of the younger/older relationships. And yes, I agree that financial security is quite often, but not always a significant factor. My bf has a good job, (achieved with a little guidence) but is from a poor family. When he told his family that he had a 'serious' boyfriend who happened to be 25 years older than him his mothers reaction was 'As long as you are happy my son - love is much more important than money' (not an expected comment in this old cynics eyes). Grandma was ecstatic (but she just likes white skinned blond flangs anyway!) Papa was supportive, but some what quieter, whilst the younger brother (17) thinks it great to have a falang family as well that he can visit in pattaya from time to time. And I have NEVER been ask to provide finanacial assistance.

My bf's dream is the day that I retire, he can work and support me and I do nothing but laze about all day! Yes, a definate rose tinted viewpoint from him, and of course our financial security is somewhat more complex than he currently understands, but none the less very sweet and genuine. Now for someone to have that little plan in his heart, is it love or just some attempt at longterm security!

Of course in the dim and distant past I have had bf's who have tried to suck me dry .... but then again if anyone spends any amount of time in LOS they will have chance to be exposed to the myriad of types of relationships on offer .....

[Bluelotus]

I think my b/f loves me

[popshirt]

To say that a Thai gay cannot or will not ever love his foreign boyfriend is ridiculous.

How can you stereotype every single Thai?

How do you know what every single one is feeling?

Of course, that line of thought does support the fantasy of going from boy to boy, using them as just playthings for a few hundred Baht.

I'm sure that's not your motivation at all.

Who said that? What are you reacting to? I read none of this in the posts so far.

[expatwannabe]

Thai guys can never love an old farang, but they can have a caring disposition, akin to what an older brother or even father figure represents in their own culture....but dont ever expect love in the sense that two gay males from the same culture and approximate age group regularly have...

Put your bifocals on, Popshirt.

[PeaceBlondie]

We are all entitled to our own opinions, including our one-man definition of "LOVE." Yes, it is possible that a 98 year old lady could love an 18 year old guy, and every combination thereof.

[popshirt]

Wannabee, you wrote: To say that a Thai gay cannot or will not ever love his foreign boyfriend is ridiculous.

Of course it is ridiculous but Dukkha was saying something different which he explains at the end of the sentence you quoted.

Now give those bifocals back to me !

[Ijustwannateach]

We are all entitled to our own opinions, including our one-man definition of "LOVE." Yes, it is possible that a 98 year old lady could love an 18 year old guy, and every combination thereof.

I have seen so many different scenarios here and elsewhere- quite often the stereotypical "wishful thinking" delusion, but also the real thing, with age differences no object. If many of our older members were to live in Japan awhile, they would discover that they still get sufficient attention to be happy- which is all genuine, because money isn't really the name of the game for the mostly middle-class meeting there. Of course, you can't just point and choose in Japan- or anywhere else in the real world.

For most people, if you're in a bar or club and a huuuuuuge number of persons are chasing you right away, something's probably wrong with the scene (unless you're really to die for). In the real world, visits to bars and clubs are sometimes disappointing and probably there will only be a few people even in a large crowd who are very interested in you, and it will take you some time and trial and error to find them. However, there WILL probably be at least a *few* people interested in you in a large crowd (depending on the crowd)- as the old saying goes there's someone for everyone and plenty of fish in the sea.

Most of my older friends who found truly appreciative younger partners in Thailand (even of the sort which are looking for father figures) found them quite by accident, actually- I seem to recall one couple met when my friend was shopping in the mall he worked at, and another met when they were out jogging with two different groups of friends. I know I keep bringing up these alternative meeting places, but the point is that for those of us with the leisure to take advantage of them, they really do work!

"S"

[dukkha]

Myopic me thinks also Pop....at no stage did I cite anything concerning thai bf leaving...some just cant help themselves to an attack...besides a wannbee says it all in some ways..maybe coudabeen, mightavebeen, haricot bean, long bean, baked bean...where's you been, Mr Bean, wateva Dukkha

[PeaceBlondie]

The disputed comment in dukkha's post #7 clearly quoted the opinion of a gay, young Thai man. In fact, that opinion continues into line 9. Expatwannabe is reacting to the young Thai's opinion, and for good reason, disagreeing with that Thai.

[dukkha]

EXPATWANNABEE..slight misunerstanding due to a senior moment, what I said is that the concept of the younger thai guy saying 'I love' you...it is not the same as a westerner saying to a fellow westerner I love you..the thai notion of 'I love you" does not have the same implications ....fondness, affection, yes these concepts are real...but dont put them in the same context of a 'love relationship' as exists between two western men, for thai men, especially with a significant age difference, cannot be applied as so many of these lads are economc refugees, and we as western men with finacial resources that far outweigh anything they have encountered , provide them with an 'out' from their otherwise poverty sticken existence..do you really believe that an educated thai man, with a good job, is interested in you from a 'love' perspective...if you were an older man would you choose to seek out an older man to fulfill your sexual needs??

I do not discount the fact that many farang, older men, are able to sustain a relationship with a younger thai man, but understand the motives, the reality...I recall the story when a young western guy crashed his car into a fellow western man...the younger guy said, it does not matter, I am a young guy, the older western guy replied, 'but i am older and richer'...the young western guy drove off, end of story, his/story, his/teria... Dukkha

[expatwannabe]

EXPATWANNABEE..slight misunerstanding due to a senior moment, what I said is that the concept of the younger thai guy saying 'I love' you...it is not the same as a westerner saying to a fellow westerner I love you..the thai notion of 'I love you" does not have the same implications ....fondness, affection, yes these concepts are real...but dont put them in the same context of a 'love relationship' as exists between two western men, for thai men, especially with a significant age difference, cannot be applied as so many of these lads are economc refugees, and we as western men with finacial resources that far outweigh anything they have encountered , provide them with an 'out' from their otherwise poverty sticken existence..do you really believe that an educated thai man, with a good job, is interested in you from a 'love' perspective...if you were an older man would you choose to seek out an older man to fulfill your sexual needs??

I do not discount the fact that many farang, older men, are able to sustain a relationship with a younger thai man, but understand the motives, the reality...I recall the story when a young western guy crashed his car into a fellow western man...the younger guy said, it does not matter, I am a young guy, the older western guy replied, 'but i am older and richer'...the young western guy drove off, end of story, his/story, his/teria... Dukkha

I will grant that the Thai concept of love has different overtones. But be careful when you claim what another group of people is or isn't capable of - or where they should be categorized or "put."

Generally speaking, westerners are more emotional and idealistic than Thais. Does it mean, because Thais are generally less outwardly emotional and more pragmatic, that they aren't capable of "western" love? And what is love, anyway? In our western "Hallmark card-, I love you for your mind-, you're so creative-, you make me laugh-" socieities, we seem to cherish emotion and romance and the 'idea of love' as much as or more than the love, itself. But this is all, to great extent, a function of our success. If you remove the success - the car, the home, the money, the education - what do you think will preoccupy us? LOVE?? Hardly. We'd be reduced to worrying about basic needs (thank you, Maslo). We might still be relatively emotional, but we'd be differently focused. And some potential partners of the western persuasion might even think us incapable of real love because of our neediness.

Westerners do not hold a patent on the definition of love. And you should not presume to know what every Thai person is capable of.

[expatwannabe]

Just an added remark..

My boyfriend has almost never said that he loves me except in emails. I suppose the intimacy of saying it in person is rather daunting for many Thais. The ones that say it to foreigners probably do so because they know it's important to us to hear it. That doesn't mean they do or don't love us. I think whether they love us is a separate issue from what they actually say.

That's the most frustrating part of dealing with Thais (at least for me). I have learned to read my boyfriend's moods and feelings, even though his emotions are very subtle. But for Thais that I don't know - it's just a guessing game.

My partner has brought up the possibility of getting married. Since this was after we moved to Canada, his motivation can't be to go to live in the West - we're already here. So perhaps it's a subtle way of telling me what he feels without using the word "love."

Edited January 24, 2008 by expatwannabe

[Ijustwannateach]

EPWB: Best of luck, really- but check out your country's divorce laws and prenup agreement options- in fact, assuming there's a common law provision in your law, you may need some sort of protection even if you don't get married. A friend of mine in another gay-union-friendly country just wound up shelling out a huge payment to his ex- in return for an agreement not to sue for more in their divorce settlement.

"S"

[expatwannabe]

Actually, I'm already on the hook since he is my 'common-law partner.' I'm obligated to reimburse the government if he goes on social assistance in the next 3 years (as a result of immigration).

He's been my partner for more than 7 years. I knew what I was getting into.

[peekint]

I fail to see how any of this is any different than any M/F Western/Western (or Thai/Thai) relationship configuration might be.

Edited January 26, 2008 by peekint

[peekint]

" Thai guys can never love an old farang, but they can have a caring disposition, akin to what an older brother or even father figure represents in their own culture....but dont ever expect love in the sense that two gay males from the same culture and approximate age group regularly have...he even went so far as to say...thai guys will tell you what you want to hear, heard that one before, but it is essentially a financial arrangement...

The only reason I could imagine a viewpoint like the above is if the author's experience with Thai men is limited rather exclusively to bar boys.

Brushing aside that possibility, inter-generational relationships, both homosexual and hetersexual, have been around as long as the human race; indeed they were the norm for the first several thousand years of human civilization. The idea that these relationships can only be based on monetary gain is jaded beyond comprehension, though not unexpected. I felt that way when I was quite young, and only interested in men my own age. I assumed everyone was like me. How could anyone love an old fart?

A good friend of mine in college was a foreign student from Singapore. I first met him because I thought he was really hot; turns out he only liked "older" men. I didn't realize how "older" he meant until he finally had a boyfriend. We were in our early 20's, his lover was in his 60s. His lover was not wealthy by any means (in fact, I'm sure my Singapore friend was quite a bit better off), there was no inheritance lurking in the future. I remember bumping into them at the Goodwill clothes shopping one day, as well. We kept in touch for quite a few years, and they were still together. We lost touch later, but I have no doubt that theirs was a true loving relationship.

Now I'm older, and I know everyone is NOT like me (if they were, I'd never have found a husband; I'm not attracted to tall men with beards at ALL!).

There are indeed younger men who are attracted to, and fall in love with, older men. Why wouldn't there be THAI younger men who are attracted to, and fall in love with, older men?

[dukkha]

" Thai guys can never love an old farang, but they can have a caring disposition, akin to what an older brother or even father figure represents in their own culture....but dont ever expect love in the sense that two gay males from the same culture and approximate age group regularly have...he even went so far as to say...thai guys will tell you what you want to hear, heard that one before, but it is essentially a financial arrangement...

The only reason I could imagine a viewpoint like the above is if the author's experience with Thai men is limited rather exclusively to bar boys.

Brushing aside that possibility, inter-generational relationships, both homosexual and hetersexual, have been around as long as the human race; indeed they were the norm for the first several thousand years of human civilization. The idea that these relationships can only be based on monetary gain is jaded beyond comprehension, though not unexpected. I felt that way when I was quite young, and only interested in men my own age. I assumed everyone was like me. How could anyone love an old fart?

A good friend of mine in college was a foreign student from Singapore. I first met him because I thought he was really hot; turns out he only liked "older" men. I didn't realize how "older" he meant until he finally had a boyfriend. We were in our early 20's, his lover was in his 60s. His lover was not wealthy by any means (in fact, I'm sure my Singapore friend was quite a bit better off), there was no inheritance lurking in the future. I remember bumping into them at the Goodwill clothes shopping one day, as well. We kept in touch for quite a few years, and they were still together. We lost touch later, but I have no doubt that theirs was a true loving relationship.

Now I'm older, and I know everyone is NOT like me (if they were, I'd never have found a husband; I'm not attracted to tall men with beards at ALL!).

There are indeed younger men who are attracted to, and fall in love with, older men. Why wouldn't there be THAI younger men who are attracted to, and fall in love with, older men?...There are, but would suggest it is a small percentage, and I have dated ( the word makes me cringe ) University lecturers, businessmen and general workers in legit jobs...interesting how 'the bar boy' phrase is used so often in any discussion concerning farang/thai relationships, is there a reason for that I wonder? Also if you read my initial post it was an ex bar boy who joined an interesting Norwegian NGO who sent him to Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and all parts of Thailand to work in Community Theatre and it was HE who said to me, as a younger thai man. 'Young thai guys are not interested in old farangs in a love relationship that you as a westerner may perceive it to be, so twas not my words, but those of the younger thai that I repeated in this discussion'...take it or leave it...love is what you make it isn't it.....Dukkha

Dukkha

[PeaceBlondie]

Clarifying again, it was a young Thai who made the original quote that is being misconstrued too often here, not a farang. As Tina Turner asked, what's barboys got to do with it?