"face"

[gburns57au]

So where is the Face discount on the price then?

They aspire to charge "Western" prices without the Western guarantees or service or often copyright. Anyone who goes along with it is a mug!

I dont seem to get what your point is...

[dogleg]

So where is the Face discount on the price then?

They aspire to charge "Western" prices without the Western guarantees or service or often copyright. Anyone who goes along with it is a mug!

I dont seem to get what your point is...

If you buy "off the back of a lorry" at a knock down price then you should not expect particlularly good after-sales service, but if you are paying inflated prices in a high street store then surely you should expect money back guarantees, customer is always right etc. i suggest - tongue in cheek - that there should be dual pricing, with a discount attatched for those customers who agree to forego their rights!!

You implied that the OP said something that was out of order. What exactly was that?

[vam-pire]

Thais would rather accept deteriorating standards of living than have someone risk losing face, Saving face is more important than justice ... even more important than a person's life.

What a great nation this is.

VP

[micksterbs]

Understanding Face.....is knowing how to deal with a situation where there are no losers. How you approach someone when you have a problem is an important thing to know...

In the case quoted....all that needed to be said was " I know it is not your fault, but this router is not very good, can you replace it for me"

By saying what you said, you put him on the spot....

Actually, gburns57au, that was pretty-much the first thing I did say to him. In other words, I started-off as if I were back home. It was only after he kept saying that there was no problem with it, that I resorted to the "Well if it's okay, you won't mind taking it back then" approach.

I didn't write everything that was said in the OP; I'd probably still be writing if I had!

Edited January 27, 2008 by micksterbs

[gburns57au]

If you buy "off the back of a lorry" at a knock down price then you should not expect particlularly good after-sales service, but if you are paying inflated prices in a high street store then surely you should expect money back guarantees, customer is always right etc. i suggest - tongue in cheek - that there should be dual pricing, with a discount attatched for those customers who agree to forego their rights!!

You implied that the OP said something that was out of order. What exactly was that?

You are paying inflated prices in Thailand ?? I doubt you would be paying anymore that you would in your home country for the same item.

Even in your home country the sales person would be likely to check out the item....not just take the customers word for it....This maybe hard for you to acknowledge but the customer is not always right...sometimes they lie too.....

The OP has already reponded so I dont see a need to address that in reply to this post.

[gburns57au]

Actually, gburns57au, that was pretty-much the first thing I did say to him. In other words, I started-off as if I were back home. It was only after he kept saying that there was no problem with it, that I resorted to the "Well if it's okay, you won't mind taking it back then" approach.

I didn't write everything that was said in the OP; I'd probably still be writing if I had!

Sorry, I cant believe that....If you had approached it that way to start with, you would have mentioned it....no credos for changing the story......More than likely you went back and said...This item doesnt work, I want you to replace it.

As a retailer it is not his responsibility to replace it unless the store has a replacement policy....it is up to you as the purchaser to return it to the manufacturer if it is faulty.

Edited January 27, 2008 by gburns57au

[micksterbs]

Well, I'm not going to bicker about it. Not much use in changing the story; I'm not looking for brownie-points! But the router incident was just an example of "face". I'm sure that we all have many stories that we could recount on this topic.

[stuandchris]

Why come to Thailand and moan about the face issue? Surely you realised what it was abiut before you came out. FYI face is not a Thai issue but is throughout Asia, always has been, in the seventies I was on merchant ships plying trade in Asia with a Cinese crew, try being in charge of a bunch when the face issue is always there.

You live here now, learn the correct way to get what you want without making people lose face, that is a last resort, it isn't that hard if you understand the concept and try.

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

[gburns57au]

Why come to Thailand and moan about the face issue? Surely you realised what it was abiut before you came out. FYI face is not a Thai issue but is throughout Asia, always has been, in the seventies I was on merchant ships plying trade in Asia with a Cinese crew, try being in charge of a bunch when the face issue is always there.

You live here now, learn the correct way to get what you want without making people lose face, that is a last resort, it isn't that hard if you understand the concept and try.

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Not only others face.....also your own.

[micksterbs]

Why come to Thailand and moan about the face issue? Surely you realised what it was abiut before you came out. FYI face is not a Thai issue but is throughout Asia, always has been, in the seventies I was on merchant ships plying trade in Asia with a Cinese crew, try being in charge of a bunch when the face issue is always there.

You live here now, learn the correct way to get what you want without making people lose face, that is a last resort, it isn't that hard if you understand the concept and try.

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Stuandchris, if you read my OP again, you will see that I stressed that I was not moaning; I used the word "whinging". Yep, I was aware of face before I came over (I mentioned that in the OP, too) but, obviously, there is a big difference between theory and practice.

As for when-in-Rome, yep; I agree with you. To a point...

[steves_the_1]

i think its has something to do with the thai mindset being 200 years behind the west

[dogleg]

If you buy "off the back of a lorry" at a knock down price then you should not expect particlularly good after-sales service, but if you are paying inflated prices in a high street store then surely you should expect money back guarantees, customer is always right etc. i suggest - tongue in cheek - that there should be dual pricing, with a discount attatched for those customers who agree to forego their rights!!

You implied that the OP said something that was out of order. What exactly was that?

You are paying inflated prices in Thailand ?? I doubt you would be paying anymore that you would in your home country for the same item.

Even in your home country the sales person would be likely to check out the item....not just take the customers word for it....This maybe hard for you to acknowledge but the customer is not always right...sometimes they lie too.....

The OP has already reponded so I dont see a need to address that in reply to this post.

Actually, computer equipment is more expensive here, than UK.

As you know what the OP said better than he does, you willl know that he did ask the sales assistant to check the router out

I keep trying to remember to have everything tested before I leave the shop.

OMG is that a face issue too?

Also, I'm guessing it is against the law here to sell goods that are not fit for their purpose. Anybody? I wouldnt know where to look.

On the other hand it can work both ways, our builder was going to let the missus off with a payment that she thought, wrongly, she had already paid. Mug!

Edited January 27, 2008 by dogleg

[Wrong Turn]

Face is one of those things that westerners try but will never really understand, in my very humble opinion.

In my view what it boils down to for the one who is saving face is never admit your wrong, never say you don't know and never say sorry.

For the so called aggrieved party never say outright that you are right, never say this is how it should be and never demand an apology.

My bpen rai was invented for the concept of face.

It absolves the guilty when spoken by the victim and the perpetrator.

Saving face is for the lazy and incompetent.

Screw, saving face.

It's only an excuse to screw you, and one of the reason that LOS will always remain behind the rest of the world, IMO.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Wrong Turn

[endure]

Actually, gburns57au, that was pretty-much the first thing I did say to him. In other words, I started-off as if I were back home. It was only after he kept saying that there was no problem with it, that I resorted to the "Well if it's okay, you won't mind taking it back then" approach.

I didn't write everything that was said in the OP; I'd probably still be writing if I had!

Sorry, I cant believe that....If you had approached it that way to start with, you would have mentioned it....no credos for changing the story......More than likely you went back and said...This item doesnt work, I want you to replace it.

As a retailer it is not his responsibility to replace it unless the store has a replacement policy....it is up to you as the purchaser to return it to the manufacturer if it is faulty.

Surely that depends upon the relevant law? In the UK it is the responsibility of a retailer to replace faulty goods as it's they who you have a contract with. They took your money and gave you goods in exchange. The manufacturer has nothing to do with the transaction.

[madjbs]

Yeah and China doesnt have any concept of "face" do they? And do you think they are going to remain behind what you call "the rest of the world"? You are not able to understand or use it to your advantage so you just call it a scam to rip you off.Try opening your brain.

Edited January 27, 2008 by madjbs

[prodriver]

When I was first seriously considering moving here, I, like I'm sure everyone else on this Forum, read just about everything I could on the subject. I'm always interested in local cultures, etiquette, body language etc, mainly to avoid misunderstandings but also because I find it an interesting topic in its own right. Of course, the concept of "face" kept emerging; keeping yours and, by so doing, helping others to keep theirs. Seemed great on paper, especially when one lives in the UK where the whole idea of restraining one's emotions feels more like a fond memory a lot of the time. So (18 months ago) I arrive and start learning about my new home. It doesn't take long, however, for me to discover that "face" is a two-edged thing. I'll give an example... Not long after I arrived, I needed to sort-out an internet connection so got TOT here to bung-in a 'phone line, went into Khon Kaen and bought a router. So far, so good. After about a week, I realised that all was not well with the router. Would only work for about 10 or 15 minutes and then would fail. When it was cool, fine again. Ok, not the end of the world,I have the receipt, dah-de-dah. Fine, off we go into KK to take it back to the shop. At first, I let TW chat to the bloke but I soon got the feeling that no progress was being made. Apparently, he was saying that it was fine even though he hadn't even touched it, let alone connect it up and switch it on. I knew from the first visit that the chap spoke reasonable English (I'd heard him speaking to another customer) so I just said "Ok, if it's fine, you won't mind taking it back into stock and giving us a new one, will you?" He just blustered and looked put-out and tried to give it back to me but I kept my hands behind my back. I could feel my wife becoming uncomfortable and fidgeting next to me. I think she thought I was going to make a scene. But I stayed polite, quiet but firm. Basically, I just let him know that it was unacceptable, I knew it wasn't his fault but the product was US and I expected them to swap it. After a bit of huffing and puffing, he went off and came back with a new one. Big smile from me, thanks and off we go. Now, I realise that customer-care is not Thailand's strongest point but that's not what I'm getting at. You can find unhelpful people the whole world over. Rather, it was my wife's attitude as we walked from the shop. She let me know that one doesn't lose face in Thailand and I shouldn't have put him in a difficult position etc. This surprised me a bit as I never saw my wife as being passive or meek and mild; she's not a pushover. But apparently, what I was supposed to do was bend over and take it or bow and scrape. Hmmm. That's when I saw "face" as being not so straightforward after all. Just seems that what is, on the surface, a great way to behave can also be abused in order for certain people to get away with things. All the way from lazy shop assistants to corrupt politicians. Basically "Don't question me, you're letting yourself down". It seems to fit in with the patriarchal, patron/client, feudal nature of Thai society. No, I'm not whinging about Thailand, haha! But I'd love to hear others' thoughts and experiences related to this.

I had an "interesting" experience shortly after I came to live in Thailand just over 12 years ago where I was confronted with this "losing face" scenario. I cannot give names or location as you will understand if you read on.

I ran a bar for 18 months when I first came to live in Thailand and there was an occasion when I had to throw a drunken farang out of the bar. He was a well known character in the area. Anyway, two days later I had a visitation from 4 Thai guys and ended up having a beer bottle smashed over my head. It was a paid job and it was well known that this farang's Thai wife had "arranged" these sort of happenings in the past with other unfortunate victims. A very influential Thai guy that I knew made it known to me that he could have him and his wife "wasted" at a special price being a friend of mine. I did not want this to happen! After all when one analysed it, it was just an unfortunate incident and I had survived it even though I had to go to hospital to have the glass taken out of my head. The point of all this is that I was told by another Thai that refusing the offer of having them murdered by this influential Thai that I knew would make him lose face. What a dilemma!!! Anyway I was able to get out of the situation by going "cap in hand" and thanking him most profusely for his kind offer.

You wanted to hear of other people's experiences as regards to "losing face". Hope that you find it of interest.

[Marvo]

I'm the first one to respect tradition or cultures, but what is it with this "saving face" issue? Why is it even an issue? If people didn't behave or act in a way that required a follow-up of having to "save face" then they would never be in a possition of "losing" face.

You're in control of your own destiny and day-to-day have to take all the responsibilty for your own actions in this world. If you don't, who else is gonna? If you are in danger of loosing face, it's because you put yourself there and you can only blame and get mad at yourself.

As for the concept "you do what I want you to do... and you must do it, because if you don't then I'll loose face". I don't know what to say, I'm speechless.

I think the whole world could use some psycotherapy! (but I'm first in the cue )

Edited January 27, 2008 by Marvo

[scotwumman]

Try replacing losing face with losing money and you are halfway there to understanding the question

[Gary A]

Actually, I think Buddhism has a lot to do with what you are calling face. I was working for a Thai company and that factory was run by the son of the man who started the company. I was hired to get the company back on the right track and to teach them how to manufacture a new but similar product. The boss (son) was obviously incompetent. During a brainstorming meeting with the boss and the engineers, the boss made a horrible decision. When I called him on his mistake the room became VERY quiet and the meeting soon broke up. The senior engineer then took me to lunch. He explained to me that although the boss was wrong, I MUST show respect to him and not question his decisions. I patiently explained to the engineer that I was hired to solve mistakes that were being made and keeping quiet was not going to solve anything. I was a little angry at that point and said that if the boss had been born poor he would surely have starved to death by now.

Our lunch ended with the engineer telling me that the boss was a VERY good man in a previous life and that he deserved his current position in life and we MUST respect it. That was my first lesson in keeping my mouth shut and approaching mistakes in a much less aggressive around the block manner. I never did get used to it but did manage to work my way around poor decisions.

[micksterbs]

I had an "interesting" experience shortly after I came to live in Thailand just over 12 years ago where I was confronted with this "losing face" scenario. I cannot give names or location as you will understand if you read on.

I ran a bar for 18 months when I first came to live in Thailand and there was an occasion when I had to throw a drunken farang out of the bar. He was a well known character in the area. Anyway, two days later I had a visitation from 4 Thai guys and ended up having a beer bottle smashed over my head. It was a paid job and it was well known that this farang's Thai wife had "arranged" these sort of happenings in the past with other unfortunate victims. A very influential Thai guy that I knew made it known to me that he could have him and his wife "wasted" at a special price being a friend of mine. I did not want this to happen! After all when one analysed it, it was just an unfortunate incident and I had survived it even though I had to go to hospital to have the glass taken out of my head. The point of all this is that I was told by another Thai that refusing the offer of having them murdered by this influential Thai that I knew would make him lose face. What a dilemma!!! Anyway I was able to get out of the situation by going "cap in hand" and thanking him most profusely for his kind offer.

You wanted to hear of other people's experiences as regards to "losing face". Hope that you find it of interest.

Jeez... you very nearly lost face in a physical sense! I see what you mean when you say it was a dilemma. As this was 12 years ago, how has it modified your attitude on "face"? For example, if you were in the same situation now, standing there, looking at a drunk farang in your bar, would you deal with the situation in the same way?

[bkkperson]

grr that word face...I hate it...

I work with a thai guy and man is he annoying, his version of face ..i will never admit im wrong(when he is, i will never say sorry(when he should do), i will never ask for help(when he dosnt know what he is doing)..

It's just a passport to lie, cheat and decieve because knowbody should question that person regardless of what he has done...

So we all have to live with the fact that these Thai's can baltently look us in the eye and bullsh1t till there hearts content and we westerners have to take it just so we dont upset them...

Grrrrrrrrrr

[kmart]

Just about the whole concept of "face" is a cultural deficiency, that prevents a lot of progress being made in important areas.

It permits egos inversely proportionate to the wearer's ability or competence. And accountability is non-existent.

[Thai at Heart]

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!

The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

[micksterbs]

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!

The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...

[prodriver]

I had an "interesting" experience shortly after I came to live in Thailand just over 12 years ago where I was confronted with this "losing face" scenario. I cannot give names or location as you will understand if you read on. I ran a bar for 18 months when I first came to live in Thailand and there was an occasion when I had to throw a drunken farang out of the bar. He was a well known character in the area. Anyway, two days later I had a visitation from 4 Thai guys and ended up having a beer bottle smashed over my head. It was a paid job and it was well known that this farang's Thai wife had "arranged" these sort of happenings in the past with other unfortunate victims. A very influential Thai guy that I knew made it known to me that he could have him and his wife "wasted" at a special price being a friend of mine. I did not want this to happen! After all when one analysed it, it was just an unfortunate incident and I had survived it even though I had to go to hospital to have the glass taken out of my head. The point of all this is that I was told by another Thai that refusing the offer of having them murdered by this influential Thai that I knew would make him lose face. What a dilemma!!! Anyway I was able to get out of the situation by going "cap in hand" and thanking him most profusely for his kind offer. You wanted to hear of other people's experiences as regards to "losing face". Hope that you find it of interest.

Jeez... you very nearly lost face in a physical sense! I see what you mean when you say it was a dilemma. As this was 12 years ago, how has it modified your attitude on "face"? For example, if you were in the same situation now, standing there, looking at a drunk farang in your bar, would you deal with the situation in the same way?

I found that running a bar out here was too stressful for me and after 18months I ceased running one. I would possibly act in the same way if I had a bar nowadays if someone was causing problems and upsetting the other customers....that's why I don't run a bar anymore! I have definitely mellowed with age and tend to walk away from confrontations these days. Could be a combination of getting older and/or more laid back having lived in Thailand for some time.

[Samuian]

.... but my gut feeling is that if you're in a potentially confrontational situation, no matter how minor, the most productive weapon is a, patience, and b, being prepared to give, i.e. pride, position or whatever.

Are you seriously trying to tell the audience thagt if someone is peeing up your leg, you be patient and keep calm... the thing with the cheek.

Well, there are confrontational situations and I don't care, if I have the gut feeling it's right, I'll try to get it right... I am in the Service industry for many years if I would let go and be patient, what you think how many people would be left without breakfast, without fresh towels, bedsheets, cleaned rooms... name it - with what ever they get away with is a winner! And YOU have lost - this is the name of the (blunt) game being played - no innocent stuff - its silent warfare about who, where, when , what!

[Samuian]

..... where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...

Well if the Superiority vs. Inferiority is measured by the size of the amulets or the weight of gold decorating the body.... makes them Inferior right away, isn't it?

Or by status which does have no foundation based on knowledge or ability, whatsoever, but a cousin in right places or an "influential figure" somewhere.

Ahhhh well TiT.

Well, if so I am god.... "they" don't think much, "they" are better by birth!

A fact is that if you have contact with well, maybe overseas educated people, the foundation is a complete different one, much more so if they have been living and working overseas for an considerable amount of time!

Some of them can only smile and shake their heads about the weird behavior of their fellow people!

And listen to them complaining about mobbing, black mail... funny games!

Standing out, especially in the workforce is a given NO, NO!

[TheDon]

Face is in every race and culture, no-one like to admit there wrong. Especially politicians.

I think people totally look to far in it, Thai's do seem to have abit more face then australians. But people exagerate abit

[Samuian]

.... Thai's do seem to have abit more face then australians. But people exagerate abit

yep here we go, dind't I say so...?

[gburns57au]

Actually, computer equipment is more expensive here, than UK.

As you know what the OP said better than he does, you willl know that he did ask the sales assistant to check the router out

I keep trying to remember to have everything tested before I leave the shop.

OMG is that a face issue too?

Also, I'm guessing it is against the law here to sell goods that are not fit for their purpose. Anybody? I wouldnt know where to look.

On the other hand it can work both ways, our builder was going to let the missus off with a payment that she thought, wrongly, she had already paid. Mug!

I re-read the OP and I cant see anywhere, where he said he asked for the salesman to check it out.

It was a good guess but a wrong one.....Most of the computer gear is pre-packaged and there is no onus on the retailer to open the packaging and check the gear to ensure it works. The manufacturer provides the warranty not the retailer.

By calling the guy a "mug" it shows an attitude....he made a mistake....I take it the mistake was discovered and consequently sorted out....thereby saving face for everyone...