Bbc News Item

[toybits]

This might be off topic but not all foreign male tourist visiting Thailand are sex tourists. The proportion of foreign male tourists that visit Thailand is probably small.

But I agree with you regarding zoos. I do not like the idea of having animals kept in cages. They should be allowed to roam free.

Should we limit the exhibits to insects/fish/elephants/humans? Should all zoos be banned? If the zoos in Bangkok were banned, hardly any male touist would come.

[Lilawadee]

Thanks PB a nice little reminder that some of us don't live in farang wonderland with ultra high speed internet. Don't know about broadband but this lot is more like brassband.

I'm considering having a brass coil fitted around my neck to improve reception.

[mrt273nva]

They seem to be much happier in Thailand as refugees than in Burma as floor mats. It is a hurdle for many Thai's to go to foreign countries, so claiming that she can't go to New Zealand I don't think is a rare thing. If they don't like Thailand they can just go back to their own country (jk)

Here is me doing the tourist thing with this lovely lady. She didn't say much and the New Zealand topic never came about, but she didn't seem too upset that I was there. I don't think that she noticed me trying to stretch my neck as far as I could. I think she would have been impressed but I was trying to be polite so I did it when she wasn't looking.

[garro]

Guest House, indeed it is a shocking report.

I hope that you are just as enthusiastic in advertising the human rights abuses which take place in the country you now live.

After all, the human rights abuses which take place in Saudi Arabia make Thaland's seem very small indeed.

[GuestHouse]

Guest House, indeed it is a shocking report.

I hope that you are just as enthusiastic in advertising the human rights abuses which take place in the country you now live.

After all, the human rights abuses which take place in Saudi Arabia make Thaland's seem very small indeed.

So let me get this right:

1. The fact that we can find worse human rights abuse somewhere else justifies turning a blind eye to human rights abuse in Thailand?!

2. The human rights abuses in Thailand are shocking - but you'd rather nobody got to hear about them?!

3. You'd like me to breach forum rules and come on here and 'advertise' human rights abuses that occur here in Saudi Arabia (or whereever else it is I happen to be posted)?!

This is a Thailand forum, the report to which I have linked is directly related to abuse in Thailand.

[garro]

Guest House, indeed it is a shocking report.

I hope that you are just as enthusiastic in advertising the human rights abuses which take place in the country you now live.

After all, the human rights abuses which take place in Saudi Arabia make Thaland's seem very small indeed.

So let me get this right:

1. The fact that we can find worse human rights abuse somewhere else justifies turning a blind eye to human rights abuse in Thailand?!

2. The human rights abuses in Thailand are shocking - but you'd rather nobody got to hear about them?!

3. You'd like me to breach forum rules and come on here and 'advertise' human rights abuses that occur here in Saudi Arabia (or whereever else it is I happen to be posted)?!

This is a Thailand forum, the report to which I have linked is directly related to abuse in Thailand.

Sorry but did you actually read my post?

I agreed that the report was shocking.

I merely expressed my hope that you are equally enthusiastic about advertising the gross human rights violations which take place in the country where you earn your bread and butter. Did I do wrong?

[Ricardo]

Thanks PB a nice little reminder that some of us don't live in farang wonderland with ultra high speed internet. Don't know about broadband but this lot is more like brassband.

I'm considering having a brass coil fitted around my neck to improve reception.

Does that get hi-speed inter-net, or UBS, as well ?

[jumnien]

Yes, it's undeniable that the long-neck beggars are politically incorrect. However, they are so much more attractive than those Cambodian amputee disfigured gangs scattered about the Kingdom. And the long-necks retain the traditional Southeast Asian habit for regular bathing. All in all, I vote for the long-necks!

[kevf]

I was wondering , maybe if I sat around in a hut in the hills, maybe I would get a free ticket to NZ and a house lined up awaiting my arrival.

This is a story that flies back and forth every couple of years, and there must be more to it than this.

It does of course make more interesting reading than your normal run of the mill Burmese refugee. Photo opps are also more appealing.

It could just be plain and simply that living in a tourist village a much better deal than being stuck in a refugee camp.

Then of course moving abroad is an even better deal than living in a tourist village.

But maybe the Thai official is right once you have taken the deal of the tourist village you are no longer a refugee.

If it wasn't for the long neck factor it would just be another boring story of refugee doesn't have correct paperwork.

A good lesson in how we choose to read articles , why they are interesting and grab our attention.

Sometimes the really important matter is just dead boring.

What is more scary is that so many people take what they see at face value and to be the absolute truth.

So, if they are no longer classed as refugees what is their status?

Do they have Thai ID cards?

[tamsin]

Now that, I think, is solid reporting. Gives me a little confidence back in journalism.

I'm the one who posted the link to the sensationalist item on a Canadian TV show.. I object to that because it's false and inaccurate.

This on the other hand, is honest, concise and accurate reporting that quickly describes the situation in, what, a 3 minute item?

I think it's brilliant, and hopefully it will give some tourists a clue about what things to see/support in Thailand and what things to pass by.

Please dont associate the BBC with good, honest, fair reporting.

They are [b]instituationally left [/b]wing ran by champagne socialists, they threaten the good people of Britain with court action if they dont hand over 120 pound a year, to watch their political agenda lies, brainless soap operas and constant house renovation programmes, whilst paying millions of pounds a year to talentless TV presenters.

The sooner the BBC gravy train is derailed the better.

The Canadian report maybe useless and brainless, and i would never take such channels serious, but at least the programme is paid for by advertising and is what the people must want.

Are you insane? They may seem to you to be 'institutionally left wing', purely by virtue of the fact that all the other other news channels broadcast in Thailand, in the English language, Fox and CNN, are rabidly right wing. You little Express, Daily Mail, Telegraph, subscriber, you. And why is it that ALL of the UK 'news'papers sold here are the aforementioned? by the way.

[seonai]

Get back on topic please

[seonai]

This is what LaoPo posted in a new thread - it has been added here as there is no need to start a new thread on this topic:

Burmese women in Thai 'human zoo'

By Andrew Harding. BBC News, Mae Hong Son

It is hard not to stare. At the end of a dirt track, deep in the Thai jungle, a group of women sit in the shade, fingering the coils of brass which snake tightly around their unnaturally long, giraffe-like necks.

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"It's absolutely a human zoo - one solution is for tourists to stop going" - Kitty McKinsey - UNHCR

"It's incredible," says a Canadian tourist, snapping away with his camera, as the women pose - heads bobbing stiffly far above their shoulders - and try to sell him a few souvenirs from the doorsteps of their bamboo huts.

For years the prospect of visiting one of three "long-necked" Kayan villages in this remote corner of north-western Thailand, close to the Burmese border, has been a major lure for foreign tourists.

In return, the visitors have helped to provide a very modest income for the Kayan women and their families, who are all refugees from Burma.

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Boycott?

But in a dramatic intervention, the United Nations is now talking of the need for a tourism boycott, amid allegations that the Kayan are being trapped in a "human zoo".

The United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR) says that for the past two years, the Thai authorities have refused to allow a group of 20 Kayan to leave the country, despite firm offers to resettle them in Finland and New Zealand.

The suspicion is that the women are being kept in Thailand because of the central role they play in the local tourism industry.

"We don't understand why these 20 are not allowed to start new lives," said the UNHCR's regional spokeswoman, Kitty McKinsey.

"The Thai authorities are treating them in a special way," she argued, pointing out that some 20,000 other Burmese refugees had recently been allowed to move to third countries.

"It's absolutely a human zoo," she said. "One solution is for tourists to stop going."

At the centre of this increasingly heated dispute is a quietly determined 23-year-old woman called Zember, who has proudly worn her tribe's traditional neck rings since she was five.

Zember and her family fled their home in the hills of eastern Burma 18 years ago. Her mother, Mu Pao, remembers government troops raiding their village and taking the men away by force to work as porters.

Like tens of thousands of people, the Kayan headed for the Thai border. But instead of being kept with the other refugees, the "long-necked" families were put in a separate compound a few yards from the official camp.

Since then, the ethnic conflicts inside Burma have raged on, and the Kayan community in Thailand has swelled to about 500.

"At least we're safe here and we can earn some money," said Mu Pao. Each tourist pays a 250 baht (US$8; £4) entrance fee.

Better deal

Other older women in the village agreed that, with little hope of ever returning to Burma, earning 1500 baht a month to be stared at by tourists was an acceptable deal.

But in 2005, a far better deal emerged. The UNHCR began offering permanent resettlement abroad to the many thousands of refugees still living in the area.

Many of the Kayan applied, and Zember and her family were quickly told they'd been accepted.

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Zember is challenging both tribal tradition and the Thai government

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Zember herself - with rings - features in the area's own publicity

"I was so happy," said Zember. "They tell me a house is already waiting for us in New Zealand."

For the past two years, however, the Thai authorities have refused to sign the paperwork needed for Zember and 19 others to leave the country.

"Actually they aren't refugees," said Wachira Chotirosseranee, the deputy district officer and refugee camp commander, who insisted this was a purely bureaucratic matter with no connection to the local tourism industry.

"According to the regulations, you have to live inside the refugee camp. They don't meet the criteria."

The Thai authorities argue that the Kayan are economic migrants who earn a good living from the tourist trade and have chosen to settle outside the refugee camps.

"They absolutely are refugees," said the UNHCR's Kitty McKinsey. "It comes as a great surprise that the Thai authorities are criticising them for living outside the camps, when it was the Thai authorities who wanted them to live (outside)."

In frustration, and as an act of protest, Zember has now taken off her neck rings. "It felt uncomfortable at first," she said, rubbing her throat.

Over the years, the rings push the women's shoulders and ribs down, making their necks appear stretched.

"Because of my rings I have suffered many problems," she said. "I wear them not for tourists. I wear them for tradition... Now I feel like a prisoner."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7215182.stm

LaoPo

[seonai]

Sorry to have lost LaoPo's pics in that cut and paste - quite a lot of new threads were started on the same subject and it gets confusing and sloppy when that happens

[endure]

A number of off-topic posts have been deleted. If you have nothing to say to the original subject of the thread best not to say anything at all.

[Lilawadee]

Governor defends treatment of Padaung

Mae Hong Son _ Long-necked Padaung tribespeople have been well taken care of and are not living in a human zoo, as alleged by a United Nations agency, the governor of Mae Hong Son province said yesterday. Mr Thongchai argued that the long-necked hilltribe people are happy and comfortable with their lives, ''like other refugees, under the protection of Thai laws''.

Research conducted recently by a French student on this group of ethnic people in Ban Huay Sua Thao in Muang district indicated that the Padaung escaped from drought and epidemic in Burma and are satisfied with their lives in Thailand.

Full article is here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/05Feb2008_news10.php

[kat]

QUOTE article: For the past two years, however, the Thai authorities have refused to sign the paperwork needed for Zember and 19 others to leave the country.

"Actually they aren't refugees," said Wachira Chotirosseranee, the deputy district officer and refugee camp commander, who insisted this was a purely bureaucratic matter with no connection to the local tourism industry.

"According to the regulations, you have to live inside the refugee camp. They don't meet the criteria."

The Thai authorities argue that the Kayan are economic migrants who earn a good living from the tourist trade and have chosen to settle outside the refugee camps.

"They absolutely are refugees," said the UNHCR's Kitty McKinsey. "It comes as a great surprise that the Thai authorities are criticising them for living outside the camps, when it was the Thai authorities who wanted them to live (outside)." END Quote

I have seen the RTG's treatment of refugees as economic or political pawns before first-hand and this is nothing new, and absolutely a violation of human rights.

*added: It is one thing for them to have an economic relationship while they are in the Country as refugees - which they were by every account and circumstance, but the RTG has now interfered and blocked their resettlement to a third country on the basis of their own economic interests. That is inexcusable, and has been done before, full stop.

Edited February 5, 2008 by kat

[Lilawadee]

Well, is it really that simple? Did they 'block' their departure, or was it just a matter of them being immigrants from Burma, so without Thai nationality, so without a Thai passport, so without the option to leave the country in the usual way?

I'm sure the government wouldn't block them from returning to Burma, right.. Anyway, trickier situations than this have been resolved between governments, so I'm sure this one can be as well if there truly are countries willing to take them in. Most likely the people wishing to emigrate wouldn't be the ones wearing rings anyway, so 'economic loss' doesn't enter into it. And, what loss!? does the government now get the 200 baht or whatever it costs to take pictures in a village, and is that really a major economical blow?!

Sorry but it just doesn't add up.

[Prakanong]

Well a nice rant, but no comment at all on the link I posted.

Perhaps because, if the report is indeed good, honest and fair you whole rant becomes groundless.

Its a case of the boy who cried wolf with the BBC, too many times they have lied, and they are undeniably extremely left wing.

Only TV news worth listening to in the UK is on channel 4 and most notiably Jon Snow.

ROFL - BBC extremely left wing???

Only if you are sitting on the far right that is.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Prakanong

[kat]

Well, is it really that simple? Did they 'block' their departure, or was it just a matter of them being immigrants from Burma, so without Thai nationality, so without a Thai passport, so without the option to leave the country in the usual way?

I'm sure the government wouldn't block them from returning to Burma, right.. Anyway, trickier situations than this have been resolved between governments, so I'm sure this one can be as well if there truly are countries willing to take them in. Most likely the people wishing to emigrate wouldn't be the ones wearing rings anyway, so 'economic loss' doesn't enter into it. And, what loss!? does the government now get the 200 baht or whatever it costs to take pictures in a village, and is that really a major economical blow?!

Sorry but it just doesn't add up.

Yes, it is. They are officially classified as refugees by the UN if the UNHCR is trying to resettle them. That means they were fleeing fighting and pillage in their villages, and left with not much more than the clothing on their backs. Most Burmese and especially ethnic minorities do not have passports because you have to pay exorbitant bribes to the Burmese government, and it is not assured anyway. They can't just "go back" to Burma because their village was probably appropriated by the Burmese military and they have nowhere to go except to starve on a relocation camp, or be thrown in jail for leaving or work as slave porters.

The UNHCR is now trying to resettle remaining refugees out of camps and into receiving third countries. The Thai government is now overriding the UNHCR and blocking their resettlement, against their will and the mandate of the UNHCR. The money that is made at the human zoo is obviously more than 200 baht cumulatively, otherwise they would want to get rid of these people, the way they have others. Yes, it is that simple.

[wilko]

I listen/watch a lot of news channels and I'm reasonably well educated enough to be discerning about what I'm watching, but whether you agree or not with some or all of the stuff the BBC put out....and they put out a lot....I cannot think of any other channel other than some UK channels that even comes close to them for content and quality.....can you?

BTW....there is a subsidiary problem here...a lot of people clump ALL UK TV under the BBC banner

[GuestHouse]

The money that is made at the human zoo is obviously more than 200 baht cumulatively, otherwise they would want to get rid of these people, the way they have others. Yes, it is that simple.

Indeed it is that simple - Refugees as an asset, no rights, restricted movement and plastered all over Thailand's self advertising campaigns.

Well, is it really that simple? Did they 'block' their departure, or was it just a matter of them being immigrants from Burma, so without Thai nationality, so without a Thai passport, so without the option to leave the country in the usual way?

The Thai government have a very effective means of dealing with illegal immigrants - and these people are either refugees (according to the UN) or illegal immigrants, according to the definition above.

Arrest -> IDC -> Deportation

Now we have the UNHCR saying they are ready to take these refugees/illegal immigrants to ANOther country (in accordance with the wishes of the individuals themselves) and the Thai government is getting in the way.

OK there are two oposing points of view here - so ask that question which so often sorts out the truth of matters of conflict..... 'Cui Bono?'

[kat]

I listen/watch a lot of news channels and I'm reasonably well educated enough to be discerning about what I'm watching, but whether you agree or not with some or all of the stuff the BBC put out....and they put out a lot....I cannot think of any other channel other than some UK channels that even comes close to them for content and quality.....can you?

Yes - the German broadcast news service.