Quality Problems With New Build

[dressedingreen]

5 months ago completed on a new house in Pattaya. A number of residents here have quality problems. For example ... the electrical wiring has been taped together in the roofspace rather than joined using electrical connectors. The water, coming from a well, is causing skin problems. Had a test done and told there's high sulphur content. There is a strong 'rotten egg' smell when the showers are used first time each day. Two people have had electric shock in their showers. A few houses have had leaking roofs. These were 'bodged' at first when the builders tried to use acrylic filler to fix the problem. They came back and seemed to do the job properly, but recently one of the houses has shown roof leaks again. One house even has a 1 metre wide hole in the foundations where part of the house wall should be supported. None of the houses seem to have had the steel roof girders painted with anti-rust paint after they were spot-welded. In a humid climate like Thailand that gives cause for concern. The builders have paid lip service to most of the problems but little more, and almost nothing gets done. The houses were sold with a 12 month guarantee, which, for most people, has a few months to go.

Question ... are there any specific laws governing these kinds of problems, and where would one start to put pressure on the builders to get them fixed properly? There are still a few houses on the site to complete, and 2 still unsold. 16 in total.

TIA

DIG

Edited February 3, 2008 by dressedingreen

[Bomonster]

5 months ago completed on a new house in Pattaya. A number of residents here have quality problems. For example ... the electrical wiring has been taped together in the roofspace rather than joined using electrical connectors. The water, coming from a well, is causing skin problems. Had a test done and told there's high sulphur content. There is a strong 'rotten egg' smell when the showers are used first time each day. Two people have had electric shock in their showers. A few houses have had leaking roofs. These were 'bodged' at first when the builders tried to use acrylic filler to fix the problem. They came back and seemed to do the job properly, but recently one of the houses has shown roof leaks again. One house even has a 1 metre wide hole in the foundations where part of the house wall should be supported. None of the houses seem to have had the steel roof girders painted with anti-rust paint after they were spot-welded. In a humid climate like Thailand that gives cause for concern. The builders have paid lip service to most of the problems but little more, and almost nothing gets done. The houses were sold with a 12 month guarantee, which, for most people, has a few months to go.

Question ... are there any specific laws governing these kinds of problems, and where would one start to put pressure on the builders to get them fixed properly? There are still a few houses on the site to complete, and 2 still unsold. 16 in total.

TIA

DIG

yes i have exactly the same problems

[quiksilva]

Did you exchange contracts before being satisfied on its build quality?

We brought our house last year with Sansiri and were invited to undertake a pre-handover inspection of the property before transfer. There were several small items that required attention (as is normal in construction) and these were then fixed we inspected again and agreed to transfer.

I also had the electrifying shower experience, but the developer also gave us a 12 month warranty (which is nothing by Western standards, where 10 years is not uncommon), which they have been very good with and have fixed a number of issues.

Do you have a warranty?

If not and you feel that this firm is trying to get one over on its customers, you should consider consulting with the group who helps to recover security deposits (they are actually a consumer protection group) who might be able to apply some pressure.

Bear with me as I hunt down for the number ... it was in a pinned in this forum but it now seems to have been removed.

[PadThaiGuy]

5 months ago completed on a new house in Pattaya. A number of residents here have quality problems. For example ... the electrical wiring has been taped together in the roofspace rather than joined using electrical connectors. The water, coming from a well, is causing skin problems. Had a test done and told there's high sulphur content. There is a strong 'rotten egg' smell when the showers are used first time each day. Two people have had electric shock in their showers. A few houses have had leaking roofs. These were 'bodged' at first when the builders tried to use acrylic filler to fix the problem. They came back and seemed to do the job properly, but recently one of the houses has shown roof leaks again. One house even has a 1 metre wide hole in the foundations where part of the house wall should be supported. None of the houses seem to have had the steel roof girders painted with anti-rust paint after they were spot-welded. In a humid climate like Thailand that gives cause for concern. The builders have paid lip service to most of the problems but little more, and almost nothing gets done. The houses were sold with a 12 month guarantee, which, for most people, has a few months to go.

Question ... are there any specific laws governing these kinds of problems, and where would one start to put pressure on the builders to get them fixed properly? There are still a few houses on the site to complete, and 2 still unsold. 16 in total.

TIA

DIG

Guarantees in Thailand?

That's funny.

If you paid in full, the guarantee is probably worthless.

[ProThaiExpat]

Enforcing a warranty, if you have one, is a western concept on how to solve the problem.

There is no evidence that the builder will not try to remedy the complaints when received.

The problem though out Thailand is getting any kind of quality build at agreed to bargain prices.

My experience in custom building in CM is typical. Developer very willing to correct two or three major mistakes occurring every day during the build, caused the sub-contractor to run out of money and had to be bailed out by developer. I mean mistakes like walling in a bedroom that called for full size sliding glass doors, etc.

Many construction jobs are done with sub-contractors which the developer or contractor hire. These "crews" are often Burmese laborers who have little interest in quality and just get the "job done" without an eye to quality. Good developers have to come in and remedy the problems.

How he does that is often not satisfactory to the home buyer. Example: Wall plaster finish is unsatisfactory. "We will fix" In comes a kid with a nail stuck through the hose piece and a hammer and more that a day or two later he has chipped the surface of the small wall so it is rough and can take a re-plaster. Does the new homeowner want to live with such repairs going on in his occupied house. No.

Moving in before the house is 100% satisfactory or accepting transfer of title to the property before then is not a good idea. I didn't have to make progress payments, so I had leverage at the end of my build. Nonetheless the remedy of the finish problems was onerous, I had moved in, so I took on the repairs myself and learned to accept less than my anticipated quality finish.

Was lucky with built in cabinets and closets, as they were BKK suppliers and very high end and expensive, but otherwise, my finish detail is nothing like I was used to in the West. In time, I got used to living with it and if not, remedied it myself.

Edited February 5, 2008 by ProThaiExpat

[quiksilva]

Yes I admit my approach was very Western, but Sansiri stepped up and did everything they promised. They listened to our grievances and fixed every last one of them in a timely and professional manner.

Just last night they sent us a questionnaire asking for feedback on how their service has been. I can't speak highly enough of them. They have met and exceeded my expectations. (and no I don't have any business relationships with them).

Would every Thai developer do that, of course not, so if you are starting out choose your developer wisely but if you have already committed do not transfer before you are satisfied with the handover condition, but you need to be vocal about your intentions on this matter from day one.

[slapout]

A Thai lawyer recently told me that all new construction must now be guarantees for 2 years by the builder ( Thai law.)

[backflip]

"5 months ago completed on a new house in Pattaya. A number of residents here have quality problems."

Why worry about their homes? Is YOUR home OK? As others have pointed out, it's up to you to do a thorough pre-move inspection. Following successful resolution of all complaints, you should make the final payment, as specified in your purchase contract.

[dressedingreen]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

So ... what we're saying is, as with most other aspects of life here, the outlook is variable. And it's often a long haul to get a reasonable level of satisfaction. Some builders are ok ... some not, but in general, don't expect the same level of service as 'back home'. We here will keep chipping away at the problems. But a follow-up question, and I know it's going from the sublime to the ridiculous, but I'm sure not unheard of in these parts ... what if things go badly wrong? What, for instance, if the roof falls in after 2 years, due to inadequate welding of the roof struts. Is there an arm of government one can appeal to, or is it a lawyers feast?

I'm interested to hear about the minimum 2 years warranty. Is that in print somewhere, and do we know when it was applicable from?

TIA

DIG

[ProThaiExpat]

dress.....: Your last question is in the area of remedy for construction catastrophe and clearly such poor construction is easily demonstrable in court to obtain relief.

Quality of finish is a much more difficult problem when it comes to a legal remedy. Even in the West, key concepts such as "standard workmanship like quality" or the like control what level of quality you can expect a remedy for. I certainly would spell out in your construction contract the level of quality you expect and make it explicit enough so there is no ambiguity and a judge would understand the level of finish contracted for.

The technical level of steel workers for tile roofs in Thailand, as a norm, is excellent and I have never heard of a residential roof collapse. Finish detail, on the other hand is another matter. Quicksilva has pointed to a high end developer who does good finishes but then you will be paying for it.

Example: The only two items bought for my house that I am satisfied with "finish wise" was my built in closet sliding mirror doors (paid 20K Baht five years ago for each set, they are two 1.5 meter doors and came from BKK with installers) and kitchen and bathroom cabinetry, (euro design from Teka in BKK, 200K Baht and again installers from BKK).

Quality is available in Thailand for a price and more difficult to get as one increases the distance from BKK.

[dressedingreen]

Thanks PTE, but I was thinking about the roofs here on this site, which have not been coated with anti-rust paint over the welding joints. The joints are rusting already and, as far as I'm aware rust keeps going until the metal disintigrates. OK ... maybe not next year, but in a humid climate logic tells me it isn't going to let up. Maybe a few years down the line ...?

As for getting a 'good builder' ... the house is built. The concern is with electrical wiring, the provision of bad water (too much sulphur, and who knows what else), and the future roof problems ... maybe! A bit of cracking in the walls but that's normal. Things that we were unaware of when the deal was completed. Anyway, you get the jist.

I'm grateful for the feedback.

Thanks all.

DIG

Edited February 6, 2008 by dressedingreen

[ProThaiExpat]

dig: my point, but I am sure you have got it, is self help vs. wasteful litigation. Call the builder and complain that your roof steel joints were not rust proofed. If he doesn't send out a 200 Baht a day laborer with a can of rust preventative paint and dab all your roof support joints, then hire someone locally to do it and for 2k Baht the issue is behind you.

Most thorough job would be to remove your roof tiles as they go along to access the underside steel if not reachable from the attic space. My steel came already coated, as I am sure yours was and I doubt my roof joints were painted after they were finished erecting the steel frame, but I couldn't tell you for sure one way or the other.

It might be interesting to hear from an expert as to how long in Thailand a unprotected weld will keep its structural integrity if dry but exposed to normal attic moisture. Since attics are a lot hotter than the house, does this heat factor affect humidity favorably and reduce the rusting of unprotected joints?

[Bomonster]

keep up the good work dig

[johnnyk]

New builds everywhere have problems. I've had few but friends have had some major ones. Frank Lloyd Wright built houses for zillionaires and they had roof leaks. He told the owners to buy a bucket!

What I've learned is work with developer/builder to get larger problems fixed but don't knot your shorts over small stuff. Yes, you can send e-mails, memos, have meetings, lie awake at night etc etc over some niggling thing that drives you nuts (my wrought iron railing, for e.g)... or you can get someone in the next day to fix it for a few baht. I'd rather get it done than driving myself nuts over "principle" and waiting 10 years.

[dressedingreen]

Yes PTE ... it would be interesting to know the truth of the situation. Like the insurance industry constantly tells us ... hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

I tend to tackle niggles, Johnny, and I don't tend to stay awake worrying about them. But if I pay for a project to be done I don't expect to have finish it myself ... even here. Sure, I could do all these things in a couple of days, for a few thousand baht, no doubt. But why should I? If you bought a new car from a showroom, and its roof leaked and it was badly wired so you got a shock when you turned on the ignition, would you say to yourself, 'no worries, I'll get in an electrician to fix that, and I'll employ someone to fix the roof'? I'm guessing the answer would be a decisive 'no ... I'd take it back to the dealer and insist they provide a car in full working order'. That's what I expect of a brand new house.

Thanks again for the feedback.

DIG

Edited February 7, 2008 by dressedingreen

[KondoKitty]

I find that the hardest thing for the new condo developers to get right (or the tradesmen we hire ourselves) is the paint work - interior. Can always see lines, streaks, bumps, etc. Especially when the sun streams in. What is the secret to good paint work in this country? Does anyone have a brilliant painter to recommend? Or is the answer wallpaper? And what can we do about the ceiling? I saw Molly Malones pub in soi convent has wallpaper on the ceiling....!!