"band Together"... Strike Back

[Guest Reimar]

One thing I had learned a long time ago special here at Thailand: there two main groups of Foreigner one which had get this Country in their Heart and don't want to live anywhere else for the rest of their life and the other group, which is the bigger one, they complain about the Country and their people but taking all benfit they can get without to "pay back" and "braking" any law to get out as much as possible.

That's hard words, I know but it's reality as well.

You can even easy find out more differences between that two groups but the main differences are that one from the first groups having all their "Papers" in an right shape and paying their Taxes and so on as everybody has to do in his own Country!

And about the Internet, Germany is an very developed Country as the most Western Countries and Thailand is still under developing. We shouldn't forget that. And that's not the Foreigner only but the Thais as well how's suffering, no difference. There was even a time in Germany while the Internet system was similar to the today's Thailand system.

We as Guest's, and we're Guest's in an Foreign Country even if we play the Role as Host, have to pay the same credit to that situation as the Thai people, no difference.

Cheers.

Reimar,

I find it odd that you would say that since there's a seedy sort who settles in Thailand, that automatically makes it acceptable to treat every foreign national with a substandard set ethics. And this is really what it boils down to, considering the kwai tee-em foreigner as simply something to fleece money from. And the fact that there exists a class based society where the rich Thai-Chinese, whom it appears you're enamored with, keep the general population subservient to further line their pockets and manage to point all problems at foreigners to keep the low and middle class attentions off what is the real problem: namely the crooks running the place.

Your assertion that foreigners don't give anything back to the country is a load of <deleted>. How many billions and billions of Baht have those bar owners generated for the country? Not only selling drinks, but keeping the whole bar system running, thus redistributing money from rich foreigners to poor upcountry families? And local tradesmen they've had to hire? Local merchants that have gotten richer because foreigners are coming in? Etc.

Also, you're confusing the state of the internet with the service provided by the company(s). Yes, at one point Germany's, and America's, internet infrastructure was at the point that Thailand's is now. However, there was and is a thing called consumer protection. What it boils down to is that since everyone is human (yes even those who don't flit around with Hi-So types), everyone deserves the same treatment.

I suppose from reading your posts that Thailand should be allowed to sell Ford Pintos(without the safety gas tanks) to foreigners simply because they're second class people and don't need the safety that a Thai should be afforded.

I have enjoyed your other posts in other threads, but this one has exposed a side that I hadn't expected.

If you do not wish to assert your right to be treated as human, that is your perogative.

dave_boo:

I wrote before that I will NOT start an discussion on the forum. I just make my points clear without to name any particular person, just groups. I also wrote that this will go personal if start an discussion!

This is already a quite violent Topic and if it's go more that way, I'll close it.

I hope I make myself very clear now.

By the way, you find all the answers you looking for in YOUR post in older post of mine in this topic or older once. If you've any more questions please PM me and I'll answer your PM's as long as they NOT go personal.

Cheers.

[dsys]

http://www.cat.net.th/internetmap/bigmap.html

Falling off the fence with a huge thump!!!!!!!!!

International bottleneck my granmothers flaming ass it is!!!!

6G connection from NIX into CAT 1.75G link out to international gateway exchange ........

Shocking Shocking shocking

Anybody know if asiainfonet do ipstar?

Edited February 8, 2008 by dsys

[Guest Reimar]

http://www.cat.net.th/internetmap/bigmap.html

Falling off the fence with a huge thump!!!!!!!!!

International bottleneck my granmothers flaming ass it is!!!!

6G connection from NIX into CAT 1.75G link out to international gateway exchange ........

Shocking Shocking shocking

Anybody know if asiainfonet do ipstar?

CAT "sold" as little as: 326.119 G of bandwith to the ISP's which CAT is controlling! But Cat bought in the same time 15.638 G!

Hmmmmm! That differs quite a bit.

Now: Back to the topic!

Who's is to blame?

Cheers.

[dsys]

http://www.cat.net.th/internetmap/bigmap.html

Falling off the fence with a huge thump!!!!!!!!!

International bottleneck my granmothers flaming ass it is!!!!

6G connection from NIX into CAT 1.75G link out to international gateway exchange ........

Shocking Shocking shocking

Anybody know if asiainfonet do ipstar?

CAT "sold" as little as: 326.119 G of bandwith to the ISP's which CAT is controlling! But Cat bought in the same time 15.638 G!

Hmmmmm! That differs quite a bit.

Now: Back to the topic!

Who's is to blame?

Cheers.

For sure the ISPs just look at some of these inter-connects

Cslox info - 220M link to IGG

TOT - 12G link nationally, and to IGG 3G.

Then the IIG - a 2.5G (STM-16) link to the UK, 1.5G (~STM-8) to teleglobe (guess thats not the one in telehouse).

No excuse for this NONE. Upgrade your cards, buy some STM-32 cards/slots.

Don;t tell me its political.

[CosmicSurfer]

OK.. Enough Now !!!!!

AS the O/P I'm claiming my right to grab back this thread before things get out of hand.. Lets stay On Topic please !!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, I want to remind all of you that I'm not calling for a TOTAL Boycott, Just a Boycott of HIGH-End Services which aren't "High End".

In other words I'm calling for is a "Pay For What You Get Policy".

Second, This is not a thread for discussion of Class or Thai vs Farang, or even Thailand vs Western countries.

BUT, That said, Thailand and Thai leaders aspire to a status of Regional Leadership and being a HUB in many industries and Markets...

My Question or Point is.. HOW can they ever achieve this without a willingness to invest in the required infrastructure??

It's not as if we are talking about The Latest, Greatest, Limited availability kind of Technology here...

Everything that "Thailand" (By which I'm referring to "The Government and the Private sector") needs is readily available on the open market.. all it requires is the will to go and get it.

And there lies the problem...

WHY should they get it, why invest their hard-got, ill-gotten gains, if everybody is too complacent with their inferior service to DEMAND that they Do Better.

An improvement of the infrastructure will not only Benefit US... But more important..

It will BENEFIT ALL of THAILAND, and all that live here and call it home.

GET UP.. Stand Up... Stand-Up for your Rights !!!!

GET UP.. Stand Up... Stand-Up for your Rights !!!!

Don't Give Up the Fight!

GET UP.. Stand Up... Stand-Up for your Rights !!!!

GET UP.. Stand Up... Stand-Up for your Rights !!!!

CS

Edited February 8, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[gharknes]

i firmly believe falangs with name on account are being singled out and pressured with poor service to upgrade, double pricing even on internet packages

This will leave the cheaper packages to the Thais which will continue to work fine

I pressured TT&T to give me a test premium account the last week and it works perfectly, it comes with the comment "you can have this service if you upgrade" has happened 3 times now in the past 2 months

they are slowing the international link on indy package on purpose, while I was having problems I was doing speed test local and international, local was alway fine 1380k downstream international was lucky to get 10k yes 10k, my GPRS was faster, this is not a contention issue as they keep telling otherwise local and international would both be slow, like I said, my guess is they are restricting falang accounts on international accounts to encourage them to upgrade, leaving the cheap packages for thats.

[onethailand]

For sure the ISPs just look at some of these inter-connects

Cslox info - 220M link to IGG

TOT - 12G link nationally, and to IGG 3G.

Then the IIG - a 2.5G (STM-16) link to the UK, 1.5G (~STM-8) to teleglobe (guess thats not the one in telehouse).

No excuse for this NONE. Upgrade your cards, buy some STM-32 cards/slots.

Don;t tell me its political.

I'm not quite sure what you were getting at with your last two posts - but IIG is controlled by CAT. All ISPs (except two mentioned earlier) must participate through IIG and are limited in their ability to obtain external connections. The only way they will be able to increase their own direct connections is to increase the size of their link to IIG.

IIG does NOT have enough bandwidth to supply all the participants.

CAT controls IIG as they have the monopoly on international communications, including the post office.

Therefore, CAT is solely to blame. The ISPs, while not blameless, are largely helpless in their ability to increase international bandwidth.

CS - while I don't agree with your call to boycott - if you really want to apply the pressure correctly - you must also boycott all postal services, and all international telephone services, and get a million or so people to join you, before CAT will even think about listening.

Alternatively, if anyone can figure out a way for Pacific Internet to start selling consumer net access...

Edited February 8, 2008 by onethailand

[Guest Reimar]

The only way to sue someone on an legal way is to consult the Consumer Protection Deparment at NTC (National Telecommunication Comission) here:

Public Relations Bureau

The National Telecommunications Commission

87 Phaholyotin rd. Soi 8Phayatai Bangkok 10400

Tel: 0-2271 3511

Fax: 0-2290 5240Email: prnews @ ntc.or.th

with attention to:

Mr. Suranan WongvithayakamjornSecretary General of the National Telecommunications Commission

This is only Consumer Protection Office for Internet related Issues.

Cheers.

Website: http://eng.ntc.or.th/

[RHCP]

Reading the various comments I think an analogy can be made with the mass transit operators (BTS & MRT). Because capacity is adequate at off-peak times there is no need to boost capacity during peak periods, Perhaps one contributory factor to all of this is the mindset of the operators of such businesses.

[monty]

Here is the current connectivity map for February 2008.

http://www.cat.net.th/internetmap/bigmap.html

Light blue lines are to the IIG - CAT's international gateway.

Green are domestic connections through one of two NIX (National Internet Exchange).

Orange are the ones which are independent connections to outside bandwidth suppliers. They will ALWAYS be smaller than the connection to the IIG. Even CAT's own ISP service (strangely enough, using yellow lines) has less independent bandwidth

That map is the biggest joke and absolutely no indication of how the international connectivity is at the moment.

http://202.44.204.43/internetmap/view.php?...etmap022008.gif

This is the real one, and paints a whole different picture, whereby it's very clear you can't solely blame CAT, but can directly blame the ISP's.

Here you'll suddenly see that True, TT&T (Maxnet), CSloxinfo, and ADC (which markets buddy broadband) all have their own IIG's, and that they also sell to the ISP's not yet running their own IIG!

For example KSC buys 150Megs from True's IIG along with 155Megs directly with Singapore's VSNL and 155 megs with CAT IIG. So even if CAT went down completely (which is not possible since they have so many links to the outside world) KSC still would only lose 33% of their capacity.

[monty]

I'm not quite sure what you were getting at with your last two posts - but IIG is controlled by CAT. All ISPs (except two mentioned earlier) must participate through IIG and are limited in their ability to obtain external connections. The only way they will be able to increase their own direct connections is to increase the size of their link to IIG.

IIG does NOT have enough bandwidth to supply all the participants.

CAT controls IIG as they have the monopoly on international communications, including the post office.

Therefore, CAT is solely to blame. The ISPs, while not blameless, are largely helpless in their ability to increase international bandwidth.

CS - while I don't agree with your call to boycott - if you really want to apply the pressure correctly - you must also boycott all postal services, and all international telephone services, and get a million or so people to join you, before CAT will even think about listening.

Alternatively, if anyone can figure out a way for Pacific Internet to start selling consumer net access...

See my above post about CAT's role.

They have lost their monopoly quite a while ago, and although I haven't completely studied the map yet I would reckon that the bigger ISP's are now down to only buying 33% or less of their International bandwidth through the CAT!

[dsys]

Monty,

Thanks or posting that (again) thats the map i remember seeing before .

It proves one thing - they are trying to improve things and that deregualtion is starting to work. There are still a lot of "iffy" national interconnects there and thats down to the ISPs.

If you look at the evolution of true, they have a resonably good setup there , TOT IIG and TTT IIG have a way to go. CSL looks quite redundent but the speeds out are slow.

my faith is restored and i'll jump back on the fence.

ps there's a few mistakes in the chart - look at AS9737 -> AS4651

[nikster]

Monty,

Thanks or posting that (again) thats the map i remember seeing before .

It proves one thing - they are trying to improve things and that deregualtion is starting to work. There are still a lot of "iffy" national interconnects there and thats down to the ISPs.

Thanks, too. I too agree that this does show things are improving. Slowly.

A few Mbits here, a few there - all drops in the bucket. Look at the top left corner of the map: 24.9Gbps in/out of Thailand. That is the problem. Can't find any sources right now but I remember Singapore had 80Gbps and Hong Kong 100.

I remember a graph showing internet usage vs bandwidth in Thailand. International bandwidth was doubling every year, and usage was tripling. So some sort of head-on collision was predictable. Sorry for not providing any references but Google is letting me down today.

There's a big fat cable coming in Dec 2008 which I hope will at least double Thailand's capacity. And by mid 2009 the ISPs will have sorted it out enough so that end users actually see any of it (and that's my own prediction ).

Edited February 9, 2008 by nikster

[Oleg_Rus]

What is 1024/512, 2048/1024 and so stands for ?

Gimmick. it is not even close to connection to the next door computer here in los, and International bandwidth sux.

Why? do to the "healthy profit taking policy" as much as 300% up from what is paid.

Hence we stuck with horrible connections through cache servers, multiple filters and proxies - to compensate lack of actual connection.

Don't blame CAT - it is very nice and responsible company with great employees, as far as I had to deal with.

[onethailand]

Here is the current connectivity map for February 2008.

http://www.cat.net.th/internetmap/bigmap.html

Light blue lines are to the IIG - CAT's international gateway.

Green are domestic connections through one of two NIX (National Internet Exchange).

Orange are the ones which are independent connections to outside bandwidth suppliers. They will ALWAYS be smaller than the connection to the IIG. Even CAT's own ISP service (strangely enough, using yellow lines) has less independent bandwidth

That map is the biggest joke and absolutely no indication of how the international connectivity is at the moment.

http://202.44.204.43/internetmap/view.php?...etmap022008.gif

This is the real one, and paints a whole different picture, whereby it's very clear you can't solely blame CAT, but can directly blame the ISP's.

Here you'll suddenly see that True, TT&T (Maxnet), CSloxinfo, and ADC (which markets buddy broadband) all have their own IIG's, and that they also sell to the ISP's not yet running their own IIG!

For example KSC buys 150Megs from True's IIG along with 155Megs directly with Singapore's VSNL and 155 megs with CAT IIG. So even if CAT went down completely (which is not possible since they have so many links to the outside world) KSC still would only lose 33% of their capacity.

Funny - the Nectec one is the one I was looking for, but I could only find a version from 2004! Thanks for posting that.

Obviously my information is outdated.

At least now I know I can blast CS Loxinfo when my home connection goes slow. They're decent as far as redundancy, but no fat pipe, and all but one international link goes through Singapore, which partly defeats the purpose of redundancy.

And as for True... no wonder its bandwidth is so unstable and fluctuates wildly during the day.

[nikster]

Don't blame CAT - it is very nice and responsible company with great employees, as far as I had to deal with.

Yeah CAT is really nice to customers. However - they both own the biggest pipes out of Thailand and are in competition with other ISPs. Can you say conflict of interest?

[dsys]

What is 1024/512, 2048/1024 and so stands for ?

Gimmick. it is not even close to connection to the next door computer here in los, and International bandwidth sux.

Why? do to the "healthy profit taking policy" as much as 300% up from what is paid.

Hence we stuck with horrible connections through cache servers, multiple filters and proxies - to compensate lack of actual connection.

Don't blame CAT - it is very nice and responsible company with great employees, as far as I had to deal with.

there is so much msiunderstanding about what you are buying: Have a read at this I think it sums it up nicely:

To access the Internet, a residential user should be connected to ISP which routes their traffic to the Internet. Several technologies are used for this purpose -- Frame Relay, ISDN, LL, ADSL WiMax, etc. I will describe the two most actually used technologies -- the Leased Line and ADSL services.

Leased Line provides guaranteed traffic bandwidth. When LL is used to connect to the internet, a given traffic bandwidth is reserved to the user end to end. This mean if a user chooses LL 2MB, he can send/receive traffic at any time at 2MB bandwidth value. When the line is not used, the available bandwidth is still reserved and not used by other users, even if the physical line and equipment are shared. The logical line still reserved.

ADSL connection is shared traffic bandwidth. ADSL is different when dealing with bandwidth reservation. The bandwidth value for a user is reserved between the user’s home and first access equipment (DSLAM), but on DSLAM uplink to Internet network, no reservation is performed – the goal is to deliver traffic with best effort. So a user with ADSL 2MB can receive traffic at 2MB as a maximum value, but not all the time; if the network is full, there is no guarantee that the user’s traffic will be delivered. Another key point of ADSL is that sending and receiving traffic bandwidth is not equal – this is the meaning of the ASYMETRIC name; the uplink traffic (traffic sent from user to the Internet) is lower than downlink traffic.

Comparing ADSL to LL. How can users make the best choice to connect their systems to the internet? Each technology is more efficient for certain internet usages.

For example suppose that you need install a web server at your home/company. Most traffic is considered as uplink traffic, and since the ADSL uplink bandwidth is very low, ADSL is not the recommended solution for this case. Another reason that LL would make the best solution is that up-time for LL is higher than ADSL; LL is supposed to never come down, whereas ADSL is not so stable of a service. So using ADSL for web servers can affect the users satisfaction and connectivity. The same choice is better any time you need to provide some real-time service without having to stop troubles, ex: remote connectivity between different company sites.

Suppose now that one user needs to connect his home or company to the Internet just for browsing websites and other services. No quality of non-stop service is required for this case, so ADSL is a good choice. Using LL will result in higher cost because LL is always more expensive than ADSL. There is no need to pay more in this case because the user’s needs can be satisfied simply by using ADSL.

<Source - http://www.howtodothings.com/computers/how...rnet-connection >

Edited February 9, 2008 by dsys

[freitag1]

I let my secretary call them everytime something is wrong. At least they might recognize that people don't put up with the sh!t they do.

[Deksan]

Here is the current connectivity map for February 2008.

http://www.cat.net.th/internetmap/bigmap.html

Light blue lines are to the IIG - CAT's international gateway.

Green are domestic connections through one of two NIX (National Internet Exchange).

Orange are the ones which are independent connections to outside bandwidth suppliers. They will ALWAYS be smaller than the connection to the IIG. Even CAT's own ISP service (strangely enough, using yellow lines) has less independent bandwidth

That map is the biggest joke and absolutely no indication of how the international connectivity is at the moment.

http://202.44.204.43/internetmap/view.php?...etmap022008.gif

This is the real one, and paints a whole different picture, whereby it's very clear you can't solely blame CAT, but can directly blame the ISP's.

Here you'll suddenly see that True, TT&T (Maxnet), CSloxinfo, and ADC (which markets buddy broadband) all have their own IIG's, and that they also sell to the ISP's not yet running their own IIG!

For example KSC buys 150Megs from True's IIG along with 155Megs directly with Singapore's VSNL and 155 megs with CAT IIG. So even if CAT went down completely (which is not possible since they have so many links to the outside world) KSC still would only lose 33% of their capacity.

On a side note ... most ISP have now their own IIG but as a true customer service 2500/512 line I can tell you that all my traffic is routed through CAT and i have no benefit of their IIG except the fact that the ppl who are using the IIG are not using the CAT link and i m not sharing with them

[nikster]

I let my secretary call them everytime something is wrong. At least they might recognize that people don't put up with the sh!t they do.

Heh - I do it myself I can almost call TOT in my sleep by now, dial 9 for english, rattle off my phone #, etc. I don't get upset or anything, just inform them every single time. Not enough people do this though since I always get through immediately, never any wait.