Grammar Question (sorry).

[withnail]

I've been been confusing myself this week teaching my kids something really simple. We've been talking about different fruits and other foods and I was teaching the younger kids to say which fruits they liked and disliked. Now it seems obvious that when talking about likes and dislikes you mean apples (for example) in general and therefore you should always say "I like oranges" not "I like orange" as most of the kids say. However iss this always the case?

It seemed to me as I read some of their work through in my head that "I like durian" or "I like pineapple" sounded perfectly acceptable, possibly because these are larger fruits that you would be eating some of not all of but then you can eat a piece of an orange can't you.

"I like orange" sounded obviously incorrect however "I like banana" didn't and these are both of a similar size.

What do you think?

It's really sad but this has been annoying me all week, I usually consider myself pretty good with grammar and this seems so simple that its irritating.

[roadie]

I think that because the words 'apples' and 'oranges' begin with vowels, you need the article 'an' in front in order to make the sentence correct.

Where as the other examples, durian and pineapple, begin with consonants and don't require this article. Not sure if this holds true for other examples, just my theory.

[nomade]

So roadie, this is what you tell your students is it?

I like an apples? I like plum? Think about it? You're talking about generalities so there are NO articles ... countable plural nouns and uncountable nouns only!

To get back to the OP. Interesting question. Shifting countable/uncountable nouns. . How to decide whether a noun is countable or not? I think your analysis is right....fruits which are small enough to be eaten individually would be plural countable. "I like X " here means "I like [eating] X". Therefore think food portion sizes!

I like strawberries, apples, plums, oranges, blackcurrants, bananas. All of these individual fruits are small enough to be eaten by one person.

On the other hand, when you only eat a portion of a fruit this could be considered as an "indeterminate mass" and thus treated as an uncountable noun.

People do not usually eat a whole fruit like a grapefruit, pineapple, papaya, mango or melon in one sitting.

[withnail]

nomade, that's what I was thinking however surely the same could be said for banana as well? That's the one that threw me I just said I like banana to myself in my head and it doesn't sound incorrect

Does anyone have a good way of explaining this or should I just say small plural big singular and be done with it?

[kenkannif]

I think you can say I like banana, you're not talking about the specific fruit per se (that would be I like bananas or apples or a banana an apple, although it would then need some qualification for example I like an apple a day etc.) you're talking about it in general as a uncountable flavour rather than as the countable fruit???

Of course you can say I like pineapple, or grapefruit or anything that is too big to eat in one go (I like horse for example (no not horse like that, horse meat!)).

Tried to search on the 'net but no joy!

Edited September 17, 2004 by kenkannif

[nomade]

Can't you say both "I like banana" AND "I like bananas"? Depends whether you're eating, say, mashed up banana as in a banana pancake (again indeterminate quantity) or individual fruits. Same with mango/mangos. If you usually eat a whole mango, you'd say "I like mangos".

Presumably it's a low level class so you can't have too complicated an explanation. Your big/small idea is simple but I don't like it too much because it doesn't help with the concept of countable/uncountable. All these fruits can be countable under certain circumstances. They aren't uncountable per se. ("Grapefruits" does sound wierd, but I checked and it is both C and U!)

Hmm .. how to teach this. Maybe ask the students if they could eat a whole fruit in one go? If yes, then countable. How many can you eat? (one, ten) If no, then uncountable. How much can you eat? (a little, a lot)

[Ijustwannateach]

Countability is related to object portion size and type. If the portion is distinguishable from another portion by its very nature (a unit package, for instance) then it is one item.

Consider the following:

A hair (for single, countable hairs close up)

A person's hair (uncountable noun related to a distant quantity of hair)

A grain of rice (the grains are countable)

grain (a mass of stuff that is not distinctly countable)

rice (ditto)

milk (the liquid- in unidentified portions it is uncountable)

a glass/bottle of milk (countable by portion size)

cheese (how much? Who knows?)

a cheese (the round wheel that we can't so easily find here)

I remind my students, especially when teaching generalization questions such as:

Do you like X?

Yes, I do.

that X must be either plural or uncountable- and warn them that uncountable animal/fruit sound like food. Consider the differences:

Do you like cats? [in general]

Do you like cat? [the food]

Do you like a cat? [um... only the one, right?]

Other examples:

a chicken (walking around and alive, or dead and at the butchers)

chicken (unidentified and uncountable portion size of food)

a chicken leg (a specific countable object OR a countable portion of food)

Hope this clarified things!

"Steven"

[roadie]

Nomad, to clarify - I like an apple and I like apples, not I like an apples.

[roadie]

Just to complicate matters, what about kiwis? Surely there small enough to be eaten in one portion but 'I like kiwi' sounds correct to me.

[nomade]

Well, "I like kiwi" doesn't sound OK to me roadie!

In fact, now I come to think about it, I wouldn't say "I like banana" either. (Unless I'm talking about banana flavour or something) I wonder if there's different usage depending on where you come from? I'm a Brit BTW.

[kenkannif]

But IJWT you're using an article first in some of your examples.

Hair is vastly different from A hair isn't it?

I like hair (rubbed on my face).

I don't like A hair (in my food).

Or if you have a bird with lovely hair and you fancy her you could just say I like hair (as in I'm hair man, boob man etc.).

I like a banana for breakfast.

I like banana for breakfast.

I like bananas for breakfast.

All are correct, but three different versions?

Actually I see you're saying the exact same thing (God I'm a <deleted>!).

I'll not edit though as it's nice to look silly from time to time

Edited September 17, 2004 by kenkannif

[kenkannif]

I like Kiwi (fruit) is okay and I like banana is okay (and I'm a Brit as well).

I think IJWT has hit the nail on the head with his post though!

[nomade]

Kenkannif.

You can use "a" with a singular countable noun when generalizing. It means "that class of object/thing" and has an almost identical meaning to the plural countable noun.

An elephant never forgets

Elephants never forget.

But the OP is talking beginner classes here!

[kenkannif]

Yes, but a hair and hair are well different aren't they? Sorry if I'm being dumb. Jeez English is hard!

[nomade]

I was just pointing out the fact that this topic is a bit... hairy! ( )

There are some fixed grammar rules. For example, some words like "information" and "furniture" are always uncountable in English (but not in many other languages). However a lot of grammar seems to consist of trying to explain "exceptions" to the rules. I think native English speakers USE grammar to convey (often very subtle) differences in meaning. Nothing to do with rules. Most text books don't look at grammar like this. For them there is "correct"" and "incorrect" grammar. The OP's original question perfectly demonstrated how flawed this idea is.

PS. 'Course a hair/hairs/hair are different! If you say "He's got hairs on his head" what image does that conjure up? Is it grammatically correct?

[withnail]

The reason why I brought this up is because all the kids books seem to say I like oranges and leave it at that which suggested to me initially that I should correct their I like orange because it's wrong. In my opinion now after the replies and thinking it over it's not wrong it suggests a slightly different meaning however it is still acceptable.

I thought about it this way, a fruit is a whole thing consisting of the skin the pips etc. but the actual bit you eat is still orange and you can like it or not.

I decided today whilst I was marking exams in which I'd put a fill in the blanks question "I like _______" to leave what they put unless it was something like I like hamburger which should really be plural. I will be tackling the subject of countable and uncountable nouns however in this case I think it would be better to leave the explanation. Seeing as it's confusing everyone on here I think I'd be wasting my time with the prathom 3 kids.

[PeaceBlondie]

Whoever dubbed the categories "countable" and "uncountable" may have been a genius. I had to teach this about ten times this month. I proved it by seeing IF YOU CAN COUNT THEM.

For example, a growing Thai boy goes home after school and says "Ma, give me a rice." She gives him a grain! You can't count rice; there are too many grains. Same with popcorn at the cinema: "Give me one popcorn please." She gives him a kernel!

You can't count liquids, or something like a piece of chalk that used to be the cliffs of Dover.

If you're talking about individual pieces/units of strands of hair, you can count them and they can be plural or singular. But if you can't count them - concepts like "acceptability" or "patience" as a general virtue - or grapefruit as a food category - then they can't be plural.

[Som Nam Na]

I came accross this a while ago. If you can figure out the rules for plurals, then you are a better man than I.

http://www.nanceestar.com/KidsGrammar-Frame-Main.html

I think it far more complicated than that. It might be one of those things that is easier learnt than explained.

But.......saying that I also found

Plurals of proper names?

According to The Grammar Bible, "with proper names ending in a sound that blends well with s, simply add -s.

--Brown~the Browns

--Lindberg~the Lindbergs

--Ericson ~the Ericsons

--Shaw~the Shaws

With proper nouns ending in sounds that don't blend well with s, the sibilant sounds, add -es.

--Cox~the Coxes

--Jones~the Joneses

--Firch~the Firches

--Nemetz~the Nemetzes

So it could just be a matter of difficulty in pronunciation!!!

Explain that one to the kids who find them all difficult

[nomade]

PeaceBlondie, I can count grapefruits. I have three in my kitchen right now.

Look it up in the dictionary:

(OUP Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

grapefruit....noun (pl. grapefruit or grapefruits) [C,U] a large round yellow citrus fruit with a lot of slightly sour juice ....

[mbkudu]

Yes, but a hair and hair are well different aren't they? Sorry if I'm being dumb. Jeez English is hard!

How about the old joke: "Did you get a hair cut?"

"No, I got all of them cut."

[Ijustwannateach]

PeaceBlondie, I can count grapefruits. I have three in my kitchen right now.

Look it up in the dictionary:

(OUP Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

grapefruit....noun (pl. grapefruit or grapefruits) [C,U] a large round yellow citrus fruit with a lot of slightly sour juice ....

The fact that the plural of grapefruit does not necessarily end in an "s" does not make it an uncountable noun. It is simply a countable noun with an irregular plural form- just as the plural of sheep is sheep and the plural of fish is fish, in many normal circumstances- without reducing the countability either of sheep or of fish.

However, if I were to EAT fish, the same word (with the same spelling) would then become an uncountable noun- unless I ate more than one, and ate them whole. So there is a bit of ambiguity there, up to the point where you have enough information to judge the countability of the situation.

"Steven"

[nomade]

(PeaceBlondie, Sat 2004-09-18, 01:14:12)

-But if you can't count them concepts like "acceptability" or "patience" as a general virtue - or grapefruit as a food category - then they can't be plural.

IJWT, I was merely questioning how useful an explanation like this one by PeaceBlondie would be to a class of students! Can you count grapefruit(s)? Can grapefruit(s) be categorized as "food"? A bit confusing no?

According to the dictionary, grapefruit can be a countable OR an uncountable noun and has TWO acceptable plural forms. If you are thinking about an "unspecified quantity" of grapefruit flesh then it should be treated as an uncountable noun. If you are thinking of whole fruits then the noun is countable.

It's not the "s" or lack of it that's the real problem ... it's the rest of the sentence structure.

Fewer/less grapefruit is/are eaten by children than adults.

Choose the "right" answer? It all depends on what you want to say!

[kenkannif]

I'd say 'I like hamburger' could be said?

[paully]

^No Ken, a classic 'Thai' mistake.

Either "I like hamburgers" (I think they are nice) or

"I'd like a hamburger" (ie: I want to eat one now).

[kenkannif]

I like hamburger (meat) not hamburgers per se? No roll no salad etc.?

Edited September 19, 2004 by kenkannif

[kenkannif]

ham·burg·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hmb๛rgr) also ham·burg (-b๛rg)

n.

Surely at least for the first example it would allow you to say I like hamburger? I like ground meat? Sounds okay to me?

Ground meat, usually beef.

A patty of such meat.

A sandwich made with a patty of ground meat usually in a roll or bun.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[short for Hamburger steak, after Hamburg.]

Word History: Because the world has eaten countless hamburgers, the origins of the name may be of interest to many. By the middle of the 19th century people in the port city of Hamburg, Germany, enjoyed a form of pounded beef called Hamburg steak. The large numbers of Germans who migrated to North America during this time probably brought the dish and its name along with them. The entr้e may have appeared on an American menu as early as 1836, although the first recorded use of Hamburg steak is not found until 1884. The variant form hamburger steak, using the German adjective Hamburger meaning “from Hamburg,” first appears in a Walla Walla, Washington, newspaper in 1889. By 1902 we find the first description of a Hamburg steak close to our conception of the hamburger, namely a recipe calling for ground beef mixed with onion and pepper. By then the hamburger was on its way, to be followedmuch laterby the shortened form burger, used in forming cheeseburger and the names of other variations on the basic burger, as well as on its own.

Edited September 19, 2004 by kenkannif

[mbkudu]

Now you're splitting hair(s).

[kenkannif]

Tis grammatically correct though tis it not? English grammar is pedantic isn't it?

Edited September 19, 2004 by kenkannif

[nomade]

English grammar was invented so that English teachers like us (read nerds! )can argue about it! The more you think about it, the more convoluted it gets, yet 6 year olds can master it.

Well, just to be awkward, I don't think it is grammtically correct kenkannif!

Is the meat that hamburgers are made of called hamburger? No, it's called ground or minced meat and "meat" is uncountable.

Will this ever stop?

[PeaceBlondie]

Nah, let's not stop; this is more fun than...cleaning septic tanks.

I like hamburger meat, which isn't countable. When they're prepared as a type of meat sandwich, and countable, I like to eat one or two hamburgers.

As for teaching methods in Thailand, the "count" or "noncount" concept seemed to work very well on about 500 Matayom 2 students this month. But I'm new at it, so surely there's a better way. The trouble with the Thai teachers of English is that so many of them are Aristotelian, thinking that the world makes sense if you can just sub-categorize it like some federal lawbook. No - language is a flexible, ambiguous, artistic mode of expression, not a diagram.