Farming In Issan-why Not Drill A Well And Harvest Twice?

[ozzydom]

Maizefarmer raises some valid points, I would be surprised if water was the sole cause of your low yield. It was in our area last season,but it was too much water that caused the problem as the flood we experienced caused many to have total loss of crop.

Anthoma,a few particulars that might help forum members to better advise you are, which area are you farming in,do you have your own tractor (iron buffalo) how many family members are available to work in the paddy? these points have a large bearing on how to plan an economical approach to improving your rice yield.

25 rai is a tidy area of land for a village farmer and from your description it is mainly river flats,so it certainly has the potential to do better. Mind you, if your GF parents are involved in the rice growing at present then your can expect scepticism and even resentment to making changes in their age old practices.

But as with most problems,there is an answer to that if indeed it is a problem.

ozzy

[alexboy]

A moderate but low yield for the commonly grown varieties of rice on one rai is about 500 kilo...anything less than 500 kilo from one rai means there was some problem...and even getting 500 means there is room for improvement. A yield of about 600 kilo per rai seems to be considered a good yield. If I get 500 I feel like I was not a failure exactly but a wonder what I did wrong...if I get 600 I'm pretty happy and consider that I must know what I'm doing.

Let's assume you got 500 kilo of rice per rai. This last season the price for sticky rice was over 8 baht per kilo....I don't recall what it was for steam rice but I think it was about 7 baht per kilo. Let's assume you grew steam rice and sold for 7 baht per kilo....then you got 3,500 baht per rai and for 16.3 rai you would have received 57,000 baht. EVen if you only got 400 kilo per rai and received 6 baht per kilo you would have received 39,000 baht for the 16.3 rai.

I don't know what happened on your land but I'm just trying to show that the general expectation for 16.3 rai would be considerably more than you achieved.

As for pumping water....from that depth I think it would be too expensive for growing rice. Pumping water for other crops might work depending on the depth of the water and the profit margin for the crop. The nice thing about growing rice is that it is easy to sell and it keeps very well........on the other hand vegetable crops require alot of marketing unless you want to sell a bulk harvest to some middle man in which case the price will be so low that pumping water might reduce profits to zero...or nearly. If you pump water you really need to be a business person to make it profitable I think and of course the deeper the water the more it costs not only for drilling the well and buying the pump but also for the ongoing cost of electricity to pump it.

Chownah

hello Chownah,

i agree that we could have had a bigger yield. We work in bangkok and did not have time to take care of our land very well. a neihbour took care of it and, we did not gave him enough fertilizer to do a good job. but, a point that i want to make is that, even with a very good yield and 57,000 baht...it is still a very low yearly revenu. i am the head of a family of 5 and i make 100,000 baht per month! For me, 57,000 baht per year is not enough and not worth my time. Apparently, it is not enough for issan people too because the men must go to

drive taxis in bangkok and the women must go to the city and work too! another thing: may be the government have programs to help the farmer with like loans or grants to drill boreholes. Oh well. I guess the Issan area farming situation is not an easy one to solve. But, they cannot continue to live like this in these modern day and age. there is no money there. most of the money they get is "gifts"from family in the city or from abroad.

[chownah]

hello Chownah,

i agree that we could have had a bigger yield. We work in bangkok and did not have time to take care of our land very well. a neihbour took care of it and, we did not gave him enough fertilizer to do a good job. but, a point that i want to make is that, even with a very good yield and 57,000 baht...it is still a very low yearly revenu. i am the head of a family of 5 and i make 100,000 baht per month! For me, 57,000 baht per year is not enough and not worth my time. Apparently, it is not enough for issan people too because the men must go to

drive taxis in bangkok and the women must go to the city and work too! another thing: may be the government have programs to help the farmer with like loans or grants to drill boreholes. Oh well. I guess the Issan area farming situation is not an easy one to solve. But, they cannot continue to live like this in these modern day and age. there is no money there. most of the money they get is "gifts"from family in the city or from abroad.

Yeah, even around here where irrigation water is adequate for one good crop per year all of the farmers have some other business or job.

Chownah

[Khonwan]

Hi alexboy

Like any other business, farming is a numbers game. Just as you could not survive selling only one car per year were you a car salesman, nor can you survive on crop produce from only 16 rai. 30 rai would provide an average Thai income. The average European farm is around 125 rai (around 312 rai in England).

Rgds

Khonwan

Edited February 12, 2008 by Khonwan

[anthoma]

We live south in Ubon some kilometers from The Emerald Triangel (border Laos, Cambodja and thailand) Why i was so interested in pumping water was mostli to se if possible to put rice two times pr year. Vi visitet Phibun Mangsahan, a village about 80 km north from here. They have canals on their land and they put rice twice every year. As far as i could se the water was not uphill so i can not understand other than that they have to pump water out on the fields. They say that they get better harvest on second harvest because they can controll the amounth of water better. They talked about 100 000 bath pr harvest on 25 rai.

We bought back seeds from this farm to se if this can make better results this year.

Two years ago we put rice on 15 rai of land. My GF's brotherinlaw used his iron buffalo and the seed were spred on the fields. We got about 1600 kilo on these 15 rai. Last year we didnt bother to put our self and rentet out the 15 rai to some other farmers for one third of the harvest. Thei put det rice by hand and they got about 2200 kilo from 15 rai. I borrowed them money for fertilizer and they asked to borrow 2000 bath (3 sacks?). This year we got another 10 rai with ricefields (dont ask me why) so we have 25 rai to put and like to do ourselves with help from family with iron buffalo.

I have no clue about farming, but think that if we like to keep these 25 rai with ricefields, we have to try to get more back from them. Thats why i like to support them with money to buy what they need to get better harvest. I think maybe the lack of fertilizer and bad seed is the main problem here. The soil lookes very sandy too. They have put rice on these ricefields as long as my GF can remember and almost no fertilizer. They no talk about they like to buy at big truck with chicken-shit (7-8 tons)to put on the ricefields. This will cost about 17 000 bath. I dont know if this would be a good idea og maybe just go for the "factory-fertilizer".

[chownah]

Anthoma,

Hard to know what you should use for fertilizer. Find some farmer around where you live who has access to about the same amount of water and the same kind of soil (hard to know for sure) as you do and ask them what fertilizer they use. Really the best thing to do is to contact any local gov't rice experts what you should use. I live in the north and there is a gov't office we can call where the man there knows our area really well and they offer pretty good advise from what I can tell....

I'm definitely not an expert rice grower but I do have 3 years of observing the local practices, 1 successful year of managing a crop myself, and countless hours of researching the internet to learn the theory and a broader view of the currently accepted practices. My advise is that you really need to look at everything that is done on your land and determine if it is the best thing or not. Local people do not always know the best things to do but sometimes they do know about the special conditions that you have locally...so....its really difficult because sometimes what they do is the best and sometimes it is not....it is better if you learn as much about the theory so that you can better decide when they are correct or not. I don't really think that you will be able to determine the best thing to do by asking questions here unless you go do some research first....unless you do that how will you know which advise you get here (or anywhere else) is the best?

About the chicken manure....It would of course be good but it adds about 700 baht per rai to your expenses. At 7 baht per kilo of rice harvested (a reasonable assumption for what the rice price will be although it of course could be more or less) it will take an additional 100 kilo of rice to pay for the manure. This is a bit misleading because applying manure as fertilizer allows some of the nutrient to be held over to the next year but it is probably best to ignore this in your calculations...so....the question becomes will you get 100 kilo EXTRA of rice just because you added the manure?...I don't really know and neither does anyone else because we don't know what the conditions are there and what the farming practices are that you will use or was used before...my guess is that it would not return that much but I could be wrong. Another way to look at this is to ask is there some other type of fertilizer I could use for less than 700 baht per rai that could appreciably increase the yields....the answer is that I don't know and neither does anyone else because we don't know what the conditions are there and we don't know what farming practices you will use or were used in the past......my feeling is that the best way for a beginner to proced is to use artificial fertilizers as they are cheap, readily available, predictable, and understood by local workers....I'm moving towards organic rice growing but someone who is a very beginning farmer should probably stick with more familiar concepts when dealing with this large amount of land and family involvement.....I really wish I could encourage you to go organic but really I think it would add another level of complication that you are not ready for.

Also, the usual advise is that high quality fertilizers (like chicken manure) will give a better return with high value crops (peppers, cucumbers, lettuce, long beans, eggplant, etc.) It is often suggested that growing a high value crop with high quality fertilizer in the off season will do alot to help the soil during the followiong rice crop....but of course this assumes that there is enough water available to grow the high value crop (it might be cost effective to pump water to irrigate the high value crop) and the workforce to manage it since high value crops usually take a larger and more continuous labor input.

Chownah

[Khonwan]

Hi anthoma

I have zero experience in rice-growing, but…I believe 1 tonne of chicken manure is roughly equal to 50kg of chemical fertiliser. That means that chemical fertiliser provides the same nutrients as chicken manure for less than half the cost.

Chicken manure, because of its much greater quantity, also requires more labour.

Farm manure does have an added benefit in that it improves the structure of the soil by adding biomass – not sure if paddy fields benefit from this, and doubt if it is worth the extra 1,300 baht, or so, per 1,000kg compared to the cost of 50kg of chemical fertiliser.

Rgds

Khonwan

[ozzydom]

There is no Holy Grail for farming,if there were we would all be millionaires,but unfortunately the nature of the beast dictates that we will have failures despite our best efforts.

Just like us,plants need suitable environment and nourishment to thrive.

Newcomers to the practice of farming have it relatively easy,with the use of computers,you can learn lots from reading up on studies,trends,news,new products,machinery etc etc. and never forget to look,observe,listen and question.

The famous physicist Professor Julius Sumner Miller had a catch phrase "Why is it so?"which if applied to agricultural pursuits will make for a far better and informed farmer.

Planning is of utmost importance to getting a good harvest /yield, preparation of the environment (in this case your soil) can start months prior to sowing or planting. Early ploughing turns the remnants of your last crop plus weeds under where they will break down and add to soil structure and soil fertility,if weed growth re-appears plough again before seed heads are formed, the ploughing aerates the soil and helps the micro-organisms do their job breaking down the vegetable matter.

Just as you like a beer in the fridge , food in the cupboard ,clean sheets on the bed etc, seeds and plants like their environment ready and suitable before they are introduced into it.Setbacks in your plants growth because you didnt work your soil to a suitable tilth or adjust your soil analysis to the particular plants requirements can only affect your crop returns adversely.

Many older Thai farmers relate how their rice crops were better when they used 4 legged buffalo ,before the advent of the iron species "Why is it so?" my guess is that the buffalo helped create a suitable environment for plant life,because they lived in the paddy from harvest to preparing for the next crop, eating the stubble and any emerging weeds,dropping their manure and scratching and walking it into the soil,they kept the bund walls eaten down stopping weeds from seeding and inundating the paddies with nourishment stealing weed growth.

With the local practice of walking away from their paddies after harvest ,the soil of which has been under water for months,maybe let their cow eat some of the stubble and compact the soil even more, then let it bake through the hot season,later on burn the stubble remaining and just wait for the early rains to soften the soil enough to plough it is a certain recipe for sour and infertile soil.

I have seen many times the farmer throwing heaps of urea (46% nitrogen) at his rice crop because the tips of the leaves were browning off,(which incidentally is a sign of potassium (K) deficiency and very important in the formation and growth of flower and seed heads).

All the urea created was extended stalk growth which at the first strong wind or thunderstorm fell over in the water to become snail fodder.

The subsistence mentality (read "she,l be right mate") must change for the average Thai farmer to survive in a modern hungry world.

I have read with interest of Thai Government programmes aimed at dramatically improving yields in the rice growing industry,but have yet to see or hear of any attempt to educate the average farmer in better farm practices.

ozzydom

[slapout]

ozzydom; Agree with your post above 100%. Just had a discussion today with my niece, about her father and his farm. I tried to explain how my generation grew up with grandfathers who farmed the same way it was always done, but realized the need for a education to make a real living on the farm. They did not have time or money to educate themselves but insisted on their sons going to college, by hook or crook, get educated and come back to the farm. Those who did return, have turned dryland farming into a real viable business by crop rotation, livestock,as a second crop etc etc. The point I was trying to make was to tell her father to get her brother into a ag college and learn how to have a chance to make farming pay the farmer/ landowner. Not sure we will see this happen, the near future.

[Maizefarmer]

ozzydom; Agree with your post above 100%. Just had a discussion today with my niece, about her father and his farm. I tried to explain how my generation grew up with grandfathers who farmed the same way it was always done, but realized the need for a education to make a real living on the farm. They did not have time or money to educate themselves but insisted on their sons going to college, by hook or crook, get educated and come back to the farm. Those who did return, have turned dryland farming into a real viable business by crop rotation, livestock,as a second crop etc etc. The point I was trying to make was to tell her father to get her brother into a ag college and learn how to have a chance to make farming pay the farmer/ landowner. Not sure we will see this happen, the near future.

Absolutely, slapout - it is as I have said before on other threads, the one half of the 2 biggest problems we have in the farming "business" in Thailand i.e. education - or lack of - the other half being limited finances.

Like a vicous circle, these 2 factors play into one another year after year, generation after generation.

It is sad to note that while the farm gate prices being enjoyed by Thai farmers currently are the best they have being for sometime now, most of this is being used to pay off debt that has accumulated over previous seasons. Debt that has come about mainly because of poor gate prices, but also partly because of a widespread lack of formal education in the farming sector.

I would agree wholeheartedly with your comment that the best starting point you can offer to your partner, or those in the family who will be involved in any ag based project you want to get up and running here in Thailand, is to offer them the oppurtunity of a formal grounding/education in farming.

Thailand has many regional ag colleges that offer a range of programs tailored for students with different skill levels (e.g. many rural Thai folk have limited 3R skills, but courses for them that are practicly orientated more so than academicly orientated are widely avalible).

But as important as it is to learn the practical side of farming, it is also important to understand the economics of farming - and this respect many Thai's have very limited skill/understanding. Any course that boosts the practical or theoretical knowledge for a family member who you are offering the oppurtunity to to farm, will go a long way to tiwards making a success of the project.

Excellent comment.

MF

[anthoma]

Today we told the family about your advice to put tractor on the ricefields now. They say not possible with iron buffalo. The soil is to hard. Have to wait for rainyseason. So that was that. The option is to hire å big tractor, but that would be much more expensive. I also asked dem if i buy pump and pvc to put up an irrigation, if they were intrested inn trying to make som vegetables on the ricefiels before rainy season.(Pumpkins is a big thing in this aerea no). No they were not. So we stuck with almost 70 rai with land. 20 rai are with 3 year old cashewnuttrees so thats okei, but the rest is ricefields (25 rai) and som land that we just cleened for putting cassava. Its hopeless to work with these people. I think they resent that i come here and tell them what to do. Example. They put cassava with 25 cm between even i said that i read on internet that they should put 80-100 cm between. I dont know what we can do if we not can get family to work ore to listen to what we like to do. To put alot of money into this to improve when they dont bother to listen is hopeless. An option is to do ourselves, but my GF sais its hopeless to hire people here to work. Nobody like to work. To do everything ourselves is not an option. After working one hour in the sun i feel almost dead.

[ozzydom]

To true slapout,you are bumping your head against a brick wall trying to convince the old-timers here to do things differently so the future is in the young folk,s education in modern farming techniques.

But that in itself creates a dilemma because the poor rural families need their kids to be earning and buggar the learning.

I believe the small village farmer is on borrowed time , the 3-5 rai holdings are not viable and as they cant grow many are getting out.

Thailand is at the stage my home area was at in the 50,s, we had 22 acres of orchard and with Mum doing casual work as cook at the local hotel and my Father hiring out to do building work when the farm was slack ,we managed pretty well.

But suddenly our small farms were unviable and were all bought up by a big UK jam maker and shipping conglomerate, suddenly 40 odd farms became one big estate,many of the previous owners were kept on as farm laborers ,my father became Manager (on 8 pound a fortnight).

That was a steep learning curve ,from being orchardists to running an estate doing sheep,cattle,and growing apples,pears,raspberries,plums,hops and even a flower and veggy seed growing facility.

It is now a 2000 acre sheep and cattle farm and run by one man,whereas in my youth the same 2000 acres supported 40 odd families.

[Gary A]

I agree that decent labor is hard to find. My wife and I talked about mun Thai and she told me that I wouldn't be happy because since she couldn't get help, all her time would be spent in the fields.

[ozzydom]

Today we told the family about your advice to put tractor on the ricefields now. They say not possible with iron buffalo. The soil is to hard. Have to wait for rainyseason. So that was that. The option is to hire å big tractor, but that would be much more expensive. I also asked dem if i buy pump and pvc to put up an irrigation, if they were intrested inn trying to make som vegetables on the ricefiels before rainy season.(Pumpkins is a big thing in this aerea no). No they were not. So we stuck with almost 70 rai with land. 20 rai are with 3 year old cashewnuttrees so thats okei, but the rest is ricefields (25 rai) and som land that we just cleened for putting cassava. Its hopeless to work with these people. I think they resent that i come here and tell them what to do. Example. They put cassava with 25 cm between even i said that i read on internet that they should put 80-100 cm between. I dont know what we can do if we not can get family to work ore to listen to what we like to do. To put alot of money into this to improve when they dont bother to listen is hopeless. An option is to do ourselves, but my GF sais its hopeless to hire people here to work. Nobody like to work. To do everything ourselves is not an option. After working one hour in the sun i feel almost dead.

Pretty typical of lots of Thai farmers,especially while they have you and your GF to support them,we have had a few rainy days over the last 4-6 weeks up here so the ground is still workable.

Do they have a long tail pump? tell them to spend a day pumping water into the paddies then plough. Nah, silly idea, they will still have an excuse as to why they cant do it. And yes ,they do resent your input,but funny how it does not stop them holding out their hands for a few baht.

But rest assured , most of us have the the same problem, thats why I end up doing most of the work myself.

ozzy

[Khonwan]

I agree that decent labor is hard to find. My wife and I talked about mun Thai and she told me that I wouldn't be happy because since she couldn't get help, all her time would be spent in the fields.

Hi Gary

Labour can often be secured by lending relatively small amounts of money (with or without interest) months in advance on the basis that the debt is repaid in labour.

It is also very useful (necessary could be a better word) to form strong friendships with a number of people in your village. This usually ensures mutual support during cultivation and harvesting. Your, or your wife’s, active participation in the fields will pay dividends in terms of encouraging your labour/friends to maximize their effort.

Rgds

Khonwan

[Gary A]

I agree that decent labor is hard to find. My wife and I talked about mun Thai and she told me that I wouldn't be happy because since she couldn't get help, all her time would be spent in the fields.

Hi Gary

Labour can often be secured by lending relatively small amounts of money (with or without interest) months in advance on the basis that the debt is repaid in labour.

It is also very useful (necessary could be a better word) to form strong friendships with a number of people in your village. This usually ensures mutual support during cultivation and harvesting. Your, or your wife’s, active participation in the fields will pay dividends in terms of encouraging your labour/friends to maximize their effort.

Rgds

Khonwan

When my wife hires the workers to plant (replant) rice she works right beside them in the paddy. I really hate to see that because she comes home at noon to cook a meal for me even though I tell her not to. She then comes home about dark and her little butt is dragging. I told her to hire an extra worker but she says it is her job to work with the hired help. She also works in her parents rice paddies because she says it is responsibility.

[ozzydom]

I agree that decent labor is hard to find. My wife and I talked about mun Thai and she told me that I wouldn't be happy because since she couldn't get help, all her time would be spent in the fields.

Hi Gary

Labour can often be secured by lending relatively small amounts of money (with or without interest) months in advance on the basis that the debt is repaid in labour.

It is also very useful (necessary could be a better word) to form strong friendships with a number of people in your village. This usually ensures mutual support during cultivation and harvesting. Your, or your wife’s, active participation in the fields will pay dividends in terms of encouraging your labour/friends to maximize their effort.

Rgds

Khonwan

When my wife hires the workers to plant (replant) rice she works right beside them in the paddy. I really hate to see that because she comes home at noon to cook a meal for me even though I tell her not to. She then comes home about dark and her little butt is dragging. I told her to hire an extra worker but she says it is her job to work with the hired help. She also works in her parents rice paddies because she says it is responsibility.

TW cooks your meals and works on the farm,Geez Gary you won the lottery, She wouldnt be interested in giving lessons in "How to care for your farang husband " would she? I will sign my T/W up now.

[billd766]

I agree that decent labor is hard to find. My wife and I talked about mun Thai and she told me that I wouldn't be happy because since she couldn't get help, all her time would be spent in the fields.

Hi Gary

Labour can often be secured by lending relatively small amounts of money (with or without interest) months in advance on the basis that the debt is repaid in labour.

It is also very useful (necessary could be a better word) to form strong friendships with a number of people in your village. This usually ensures mutual support during cultivation and harvesting. Your, or your wife’s, active participation in the fields will pay dividends in terms of encouraging your labour/friends to maximize their effort.

Rgds

Khonwan

When my wife hires the workers to plant (replant) rice she works right beside them in the paddy. I really hate to see that because she comes home at noon to cook a meal for me even though I tell her not to. She then comes home about dark and her little butt is dragging. I told her to hire an extra worker but she says it is her job to work with the hired help. She also works in her parents rice paddies because she says it is responsibility.

TW cooks your meals and works on the farm,Geez Gary you won the lottery, She wouldnt be interested in giving lessons in "How to care for your farang husband " would she? I will sign my T/W up now.

My wife worked in the fields last harvesting time though she didn't cook my lunch. However she used to make a double portion for my dinner the night before and I used to eat the second half for lunch. I could always make a couple of sandwiches and she taught me some basic Thai cooking so I don't starve.

This month she just opened a small shop and quick food stall. She does noodles and Thai and her friend does Isaan food. She is always sold out of noodles by the time I get there for me dinner.