Natural Weedkiller

[Monkeypants]

I raise chickens, and I also grow crops, I am looking for a natural weedkiller, i.e one that will have no affect on the chickens.

Farm around 10 rai of different crops, and can't risk chemical weedkiller that may harm the chickens.

cheers

[Maizefarmer]

Monkeypants, I have chickens at home running around the yards and garden, as well as a hand full guinea fowl and some ducks and a few ostriches - and using conventional chemical herbicides on a rather large commercial scale (some 1500 rai) in accordance with "what it says on the tin", which I do on a regular basis - does not cause my feathered animals any problems.

Where are you perceiving the risk to your chickens coming from, with the use of a conventional chemical herbicide on your land?

Is it because you just do not like conventional chemical herbicides (which is fair enough, and there are lots of folk who share your concern), or is because you understand that using them is going to subject your chickens to real risk?

If its the latter, I can assure you there are broadband herbicides availiable off-the-shelf in Thailand that applied properly and in accordance with "what it says on the tin", are quite safe to use around livestock - worst case scenario having to isolate them from the area sprayed for a few hours - which is no problem with chickens, because they don't forage overnight (so spray late in the afternoon just before they bed down)

...... or did you mean to be asking members for comments about natural insecticide(s)?

MF

Edited February 18, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[chownah]

Methods used to control weeds without using chemicals include tillage, water management, cover cropping, mulching, fire, and animals (ducks and chickens)....perhaps there are others. Which methods are used and how they are used depends on the crop grown and the method used to grow the crop.

Chownah

[Monkeypants]

I am a contract chicken farmer with Saha farms, 12000 chickens raised inside a building.

Saha will not let me use any weedkiller that may endanger the chickens, so thats fair enough.

Maybe proper management rather than weedkiller is the answer.

Cheers

[Maizefarmer]

Okay - all understood, yes that indeed is a Saha policy.

I think you are going to find even with newly built sheds (which is what it sounds like you have) once you get the stocking densities up to what is needed to make a decent profit with Saha (actually any of the producers that sub-contract rearing - thats a tongue in cheek comment) any weeds that have the courage to raise their heads in the barn will quickly get destroyed by the chickens and the <deleted> they deposit.

How many days are rearing each lot for, and many lots are you rearing before you have to leave the shed empty for whatever period of time Saha is now telling farmers to do....... and (questions questions questions - just curious), what is your stocking density

Wishing you well.

MF

[Monkeypants]

Okay - all understood, yes that indeed is a Saha policy.

I think you are going to find even with newly built sheds (which is what it sounds like you have) once you get the stocking densities up to what is needed to make a decent profit with Saha (actually any of the producers that sub-contract rearing - thats a tongue in cheek comment) any weeds that have the courage to raise their heads in the barn will quickly get destroyed by the chickens and the <deleted> they deposit.

How many days are rearing each lot for, and many lots are you rearing before you have to leave the shed empty for whatever period of time Saha is now telling farmers to do....... and (questions questions questions - just curious), what is your stocking density

Wishing you well.

MF

The stocking capacity for my shed is 12,000 chickens per time, they are raised for approx 40 days give or take a day or 2,

then the farm is closed for around 16 days, for a spring clean. our nett profit for the 40 days plus 16 days of empty shed is around the 90,000 baht mark, that is nett profit after staff salaries, electric , gas water. Nett Nett. I bought the farm and 16 rai outright, no finance.

Cheers

[Maizefarmer]

About Baht 7.5 p/bird - Wow, those are excellent figures Monkeypants.

The figures I am more used to hearing from folk are around Baht 4 - to maybe Baht 5 per bird net. Youre achieving 40% - 50% more net! Good work. There'll be a bunch of ex-pats who'll want your input if they decide to go chicken farming

You're getting both the chicks and feed from Saha?

Edited February 18, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[Monkeypants]

Yes both from Saha,

We get around 10/11 baht from saha per bird, depending on weight.

42 days rearing is the optimum, weight per bird Vs food cost, but on occassions have managed a nett of 120,000baht.

In my opinion it is a good business, we have the right staff, and the family has been doing it for years, plenty of experience.

I bought the farm of some relatives who had split up and needed the cash, so I got it very cheap.

I think to build a shed the size of ours today would cost around the 2 million mark.

Our shed is 3 years old and with the 16 rai, I bought it for less than that.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Monkeypants

[Maizefarmer]

Most Thais (and expats) knockup raw timber framed/thatched barns about 60meters long on raised land strips. They can knock them up for around 100k and they last 4-6 years.

I'm stunned - lying in bed telling the half about this, just rolls her eyes, there are thousands of Thai's who dream of returning 90K over each cycle. Most of are over the moon with 60K. I take my hat off to you sir - you're doing really well.

When I first settled here it was one of the things I considered doing but everyone warned me off it because of the dieses risks - which in those days were something else, not bird flu. But bird flu came to roost a couple years back and took quite a few rearers to the cleaners over night.

What would you do if the flu caught you - just swallow hard and stomach the loss?

[Monkeypants]

Well to start with a timber frame and thatched barn would no longer be acceptable to Saha, or at a guess CP and Bettagro.

Why don't you pop over, Have a beer and I 'll get the invoices out from Saha.

[Monkeypants]

Her's a pic, not a very good one, but it gives you an ideaa

No wood at all. all cement pillars and block walls, our shed is 80 metres long. and around 20 metres wide.

Automatic watering system, water air cooling curtain, and some big, big fans.

If we were to be hit by bird flu, then I would have to grin and bear it, but everything is a risk, It's just one than I am prepared to take.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Monkeypants

[chownah]

Monkeypants,

Does Saha give any indication why they disallow herbicide use? Is it disallowed for a certain distance from the facility or how is the herbicide free area defined? What do you use for bedding? and who gets the manure?

Chownah

[Monkeypants]

Monkeypants,

Does Saha give any indication why they disallow herbicide use? Is it disallowed for a certain distance from the facility or how is the herbicide free area defined? What do you use for bedding? and who gets the manure?

Chownah

Trying to get a defining, distance from the farm is just one of those Thai things, Nobody really know's, The bedding is rice straw finely chopped from the silo place, It costs a fortune, but they know that Chicken farmers need it and they charge for it.

But crop farmers order the used straw from us and that cancels out the cost of the straw in the first place, and maybe make a few thousand baht.

[chownah]

Monkeypants,

Does Saha give any indication why they disallow herbicide use? Is it disallowed for a certain distance from the facility or how is the herbicide free area defined? What do you use for bedding? and who gets the manure?

Chownah

Trying to get a defining, distance from the farm is just one of those Thai things, Nobody really know's, The bedding is rice straw finely chopped from the silo place, It costs a fortune, but they know that Chicken farmers need it and they charge for it.

But crop farmers order the used straw from us and that cancels out the cost of the straw in the first place, and maybe make a few thousand baht.

How often do you change the bedding, what is its condition when changed, how much do you sell it for? Sorry if I'm being a pest with all the questions.

This is sort of a strange idea I guess but it seems like since you can't use pesticides because of your contract obligations and since you've got available land and I guess you have a large supply of orgaic fertiliser that you could very easily grow some organic produce. I don't know what they put in the feed or if it would interfere with an organic certification but if the feed is compatible with the registration you might be able to market certified organic produce which in some places brings a premium on the price.....even without the certification I have found that when people learn that someone has organic produce this will encourage them to buy from that source instead of others.....of course I do know that this approach to farming is not for eveyone but you might consider it given that you are not allowed chemical use anyway.

Chownah

[Monkeypants]

The bedding is changed every 40 day's or so, We sell the used bedding for 8 baht per sack, and believe me the crop farmers que up for it, as in advance deposits.

We buy 6 ton of rice straw per cycle, at around 7000 baht.

The sacks cost us nothing as they are the used chicken food supply sacks, the used manure get put into these, we fill around 1300 sacks per cycle, as in 6 ton into 1300 bags at 8 baht per bag.

This type of farming allows me to do what I want, when I want,It's all taken care of by the staff, I have plenty of free time,

Just that I am trying to utilise the other 10/12 or so rai around the farm to maximise profit, without doing a great deal.

I don't like to do a lot, believe me.

[Maizefarmer]

... told you - you've got a load of questions coming from everyone now.

I don't know what you are doing, but whatever it is it's very impressive (and I don't doubt you for one minute) - but figures like yours prove battery chicken rearing is vaible in Thailand

[Monkeypants]

... told you - you've got a load of questions coming from everyone now.

I don't know what you are doing, but whatever it is it's very impressive (and I don't doubt you for one minute) - but figures like yours prove battery chicken rearing is vaible in Thailand

You say that this is very impressive, I can only go by what the other members of the family are doing, they have a further 4 chicken sheds, similar capacity, similiar numbers, similar profit.

IMO, it is the norm, not the exception.

I invite you (or anyone) to take a look at our set up, and a few beers.

Cheers

[ozzydom]

The bedding is changed every 40 day's or so, We sell the used bedding for 8 baht per sack, and believe me the crop farmers que up for it, as in advance deposits.

We buy 6 ton of rice straw per cycle, at around 7000 baht.

The sacks cost us nothing as they are the used chicken food supply sacks, the used manure get put into these, we fill around 1300 sacks per cycle, as in 6 ton into 1300 bags at 8 baht per bag.

This type of farming allows me to do what I want, when I want,It's all taken care of by the staff, I have plenty of free time,

Just that I am trying to utilise the other 10/12 or so rai around the farm to maximise profit, without doing a great deal.

I don't like to do a lot, believe me.

M/pants,what % of the used bedding material would you estimate to be actual chicken poo?

You have me thinking.

[Monkeypants]

Not really sure on that one ozzydom, but, the 6 ton of rice straw is dry when we buy it, and damp when we sell it, with poo and pee, I would have to weigh a few bags and give you mean average, Wait until the end of this cycle (about 20 days time) and I will be able to give you a better idea.

Cheers

[ozzydom]

Not really sure on that one ozzydom, but, the 6 ton of rice straw is dry when we buy it, and damp when we sell it, with poo and pee, I would have to weigh a few bags and give you mean average, Wait until the end of this cycle (about 20 days time) and I will be able to give you a better idea.

Cheers

Many thanks mate, chicken poo is pretty high in phosphorus , at the moment we use high P fertilizer in our fish ponds for "greening" but the price of fertilizer is sky rocketing so am looking at alternatives. Am not sure how much would fit on a ten wheeler in bags.

regards

ozzy

[chownah]

Monkeypants,

I known that you are probably not interested in using it your self but since other people have expressed interest I'm posting this to help them. The nutrient content for varioius kinds of chicken manure and even explanations on how to use it is available on the internet by Googling for it. I Googles for "chicken manure nutrient content" and a long list of results came back and the first one on the list was called "Fertilizing Cropland with Poultry Manure":

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...utrient+content

I haven't read all of it but having scanned it it seems like a good resource. If it doesn't have the information that people are looking for there are many many other links also.

Chownah

Edited February 20, 2008 by chownah

[Monkeypants]

Monkeypants,

I known that you are probably not interested in using it your self but since other people have expressed interest I'm posting this to help them. The nutrient content for varioius kinds of chicken manure and even explanations on how to use it is available on the internet by Googling for it. I Googles for "chicken manure nutrient content" and a long list of results came back and the first one on the list was called "Fertilizing Cropland with Poultry Manure":

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...utrient+content

I haven't read all of it but having scanned it it seems like a good resource. If it doesn't have the information that people are looking for there are many many other links also.

Chownah

Well the land that we farm in front of the chicken shed has never been farmed before,It has been left to scrub.

We recently planted and harvested garlic and corriander here, we did not use any fertilizer and the results were ok.

Learning as I go here, I enjoy it, it is not vital that I utilize the land to make profit, but I want to try and maximize all possibilities, We have approx 6 rai of land behind the chicken shed that has bannanas on and produces 600 baht per week income. I have just chopped these down, and as we speak the tractor is now digging out the roots, because I think that from 6 rai, I should be able to turn a profit to that of more than 600 baht per week, from the 6 rai. Not to sure what we will plant yet, I suppose I will follow what other farmers in the area are doing this time, and give more thought to what to plant next time. I was thinking that I may use some chicken manure on the 6 rai where the bannanas were, as I guess, and I mean guess, that the bannanas may take a lot of nutrients from the soil.?

I am thinking that we could plant rice on the 6 rai, We have plenty of available year round water, the water table is about right to plant, So I am told. This I hope will give enough rice for the family to eat for a year and maybe provide a little extra to sell, although I have no idea of yield per rai of rice, or any crop for that matter. Also sweetcorn is grown round here quite a lot, so was thinking after the rice maybe 6 rai of corn. We are currently planting 4 rai of chillies in front of the shed.

Also have two fish ponds thare around 1 rai in size each, the first I have stocked with nin and pla duk.

The water area is around 40 metres x 40 metres and around 4 metres deep now, rising another metre in depth during the rainy season, the second pond is aroun the same size but with a depth of around 1 foot now rising to around a meter during the rainy season. this pond is full of weed and has been left to its own devices for 3 years, so before the rains come I am hopefully going to make it deeper and stock that with... maybe nin?

Edited February 20, 2008 by Monkeypants

[chownah]

Monkeypants,

Your chicken bedding would go very well on the chilies you are planting. Plants whose edible parts come from flowers benefit from an abundance of phosphorous which your bedding would provide. I seems like you are planting now but that your bedding won't be ready for a few weeks so maybe it won't work this time. Actually your bedding could be used in all the places you mention I think.

It sounds like you don't know too much about farming so I will just mention that fresh chicken shit is chemically very active and applying it (especially too much of it) can burn plants and/or their roots so its best to age it a bit before using or else if you want to use it fresh experiment a bit with it starting with small doses...maybe that link talks about this...I haven't had the time to check it out.

I hope you don't think that I'm trying to "convert" you to organic farming....I'm just discussing options for you or other people reading this. It seems to me that since farmers are lining up to get the bedding that it must be good for something...the Thai farmers I know don't buy stuff without good reason....and if they can make money from using your bedding it seems like you should be able to make money using it too.....but its entirely up to you of course.

Like you, I'm learning as I go. I wish I could give personal examples of using bedding but I have never had an opportunity to get the stuff....I have used just straight aged chicken manure and its really great stuff....but the supply in my neighborhood is limited to the odd flock of chickens in people's yards.

Chownah

Edited February 20, 2008 by chownah

[Monkeypants]

Chownah,

I think your organic way, is a great idea, and personally would prefer to eat things that are grown organically.

Because we don't farm a lot of area, and Saha farms don't like the use of pesticides, I am seriously thinking about the organic route, not becuse it could be healthier, but because realistically, it makes sense for our farm. However I am allowed to spray what I want when the sheds are empty, but the timing never seems to match our requirements.

But it is still early stages for us, and as well as trying to satisfy the needs of Saha, I also can't sit and watch land not being used to it's true and full potential.

I also thankyou for the info and links provided, and I know your not trying to convert anyone towards organic farming, I welcome your comments regarding organic farming. Sometimes I feel that when you post about organic farming on here, The very mention of it, gets peoples backs up, I really don't understand why that is at all, Unless of course "Organic Farming" is another name for the "N" word.

Take care

Edited February 20, 2008 by Monkeypants

[rice555]

Hello Monkeypants, try white vinegar, I ran a cross some stories on the net used as a chemical free weed killer.

rice555

[slapout]

Dont know if you can use a vegation killer or not: If so try this: one blue plastic barrel (about 25 gallon size) Fill a gunney sack with fresh buffalo or cow manure, put sacked manure in barrel, cover with water (12 gallon+-) put cover on barrel and let stand for 8 to 10 day. Liquid can be sprayed directly on vegation as killer or can be diluted by 5 to 1 and used as liquid fertilizer.

[Joe Walshe]

Monkeypants,

Congratulations on your Chicken venture. As has previously been mentioned 'You will get alot of questions once you mention your nett profit'. I, and i'm sure many others, would like to know ;

1. What, in your opinion, would be a viable size shed and number of Chickens to start with?

2. What would be approx. initial investment - shed, chickens, feed etc. ?

3. How close to Chicken company (Saha, Cp) should an operation be to make it viable?

Any other info. for those of us thinking of setting up. Our farms are in Loei, Chumphae and Chaiyaphum.

Thanks, and nice to hear someone's making a living farming without working themselves to death.

[koto]

The only natural weed killer I ever knew about, was at the end of my wrist, and everything stays healthy, of course it takes time, like fine wine, just a thought

[Monkeypants]

Monkeypants,

Congratulations on your Chicken venture. As has previously been mentioned 'You will get alot of questions once you mention your nett profit'. I, and i'm sure many others, would like to know ;

1. What, in your opinion, would be a viable size shed and number of Chickens to start with?

2. What would be approx. initial investment - shed, chickens, feed etc. ?

3. How close to Chicken company (Saha, Cp) should an operation be to make it viable?

Any other info. for those of us thinking of setting up. Our farms are in Loei, Chumphae and Chaiyaphum.

Thanks, and nice to hear someone's making a living farming without working themselves to death.

I will try to answer some of your questions.

To do it right, you would need to spend maybe 2 million baht, this would be for the building, then you have to spend on the food pots electricity supply(mine is 3 phase) a back up diesel generator, very large, to power the fans (in the event of power cut). Automatic watering systems. Also have money put aside for updating the farm as new rules come into play from EU, ETC. You also need seperate storage for the food, staff quarters, they must live on site,in case of emergency.Also a wheel washer as trucks enter the farm.

Also you would need quite a lot of land, and get the relevant permissions to build from the local Amphur, and from neighbours.

You cannot just build one of these without the correct permissions and licences.

Your (preferably wife) would have to take a course and get the correct operating licence for the farm.

This is a PROFFESIONAL OPERATION, and not one that I would have invested in, if it wasn't for the years of experience that my in,laws have. This isn't a hobby, it is to big to be a hobby, This is why Saha farms want sheds that will house 10,000 chickens minimum,(So I am told)

IN my opinion this is a large investment, and before considering it, You have to be sure that you have the staff, the know how, for when things go wrong.

For me it was an easy decision to purchase the farm, I had the right family, with years of experience.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Monkeypants

[Joe Walshe]

Thanks for that.

Have discussed option of acquiring a Mia Noi from your side of the family with my wife. She muttered something in Laos about Thailand having expertise in Penis re-attachment for a reason.

The Chicken farming business sounds great but might appeal more to younger people settling in Thailand rather than older retiree's who may not want to put together a package like what you mentioned above.

Still curiouse to know what part of Thailand you are in.