Is Talking About Cultural Differences Taboo?

[xsplat]

It's always controversial to discuss cultural differences, or differences between any groups.

I've noticed some common self-tardation techniques used to avoid the cognitive dissonance of noticing cultural difference, and to claim that groups are basically the same:

1) Relax, you think too much.

2) If it bothers you, go back to where you came from!

3) Change the subject asap to point to underlying similarities.

4) Immediately say that there are no groups, there are only individuals.

5) Reflexively counter with Pavlovian regularity that it's the same in your own culture, or that the differences are a small matter of degree.

I'm not yet clear on why differences piss people off so much. Are we afraid of insulting another group so badly that we wind up in another ethnic based world war? Or do we feel bad about saying things that might make others feel bad? Or do we dislike our own group being in any way maligned?

It seems people get extremely squirmy.

What are your reasons for either liking or disliking talking about cultural differences?

[Valjean]

I work in a multinational of mostly Thais and I find the discussions here are open and quite frank. It's not my experience that people shy from the issue - or that there is a sense of right or wrong to each culture. After being here for going on 3 years I still have people explain cultural issues to me. And likewise I do to people from outside Thailand within the company to help them better work with the team here. I think if you get away from "should be this way..." and just focus on the way we really are without judgments then you can have both fun with the differences and learn how to communicate better.

I'd like to think that it's not controversial that people from different cultures are different - that it's instead something that should be celebrated, shared and respected. And sometimes just good for a joke. Maybe I'm just an idealist but that's how I approach it in my daily life, at work and in my marriage.

[xsplat]

I work in a multinational of mostly Thais and I find the discussions here are open and quite frank. It's not my experience that people shy from the issue - or that there is a sense of right or wrong to each culture. After being here for going on 3 years I still have people explain cultural issues to me. And likewise I do to people from outside Thailand within the company to help them better work with the team here. I think if you get away from "should be this way..." and just focus on the way we really are without judgments then you can have both fun with the differences and learn how to communicate better.

I'd like to think that it's not controversial that people from different cultures are different - that it's instead something that should be celebrated, shared and respected. And sometimes just good for a joke. Maybe I'm just an idealist but that's how I approach it in my daily life, at work and in my marriage.

And what about when the difference isn't value neutral? What if it is a negative trait that is being discussed, such as lying, or being rude, or being immature, or thoughtless, or not valuing education, etc. For instance I believe in all countries and cultures there is a notion of an underclass, and some of the traits associated with them are not value neutral.

[onzestan]

I work in a multinational of mostly Thais and I find the discussions here are open and quite frank. It's not my experience that people shy from the issue - or that there is a sense of right or wrong to each culture. After being here for going on 3 years I still have people explain cultural issues to me. And likewise I do to people from outside Thailand within the company to help them better work with the team here. I think if you get away from "should be this way..." and just focus on the way we really are without judgments then you can have both fun with the differences and learn how to communicate better.

I'd like to think that it's not controversial that people from different cultures are different - that it's instead something that should be celebrated, shared and respected. And sometimes just good for a joke. Maybe I'm just an idealist but that's how I approach it in my daily life, at work and in my marriage.

This is one of the most insight full, mature and reasoned reply to a topic of this kind that I have witnessed on this forum.

well done

onzestan

[xsplat]

Its when the culturall differences are not value neutral that it gets emotionally difficult to make comparisons.

For instance, the Germans are renowned for holding craftsmanship, design, and engeering excellence as values to be celebrated. The Japanese are famous for their strong sense of aesthetic; they get nearly orgasmic when the cherries blossom. And then, relatively speaking, there must be cultures that don't value how their house or yard looks, or that don't value workmanship.

I don't think it's a matter of same-same but different. Some traits are near universally preferred, such as empathetic concern for strangers, for instance, but valued higher in some societies than other.

And where it gets really tricky is talking about the things that we truly dislike, and seeing it more in one place then another.

Edited February 18, 2008 by xsplat

[barky]

It's always controversial to discuss cultural differences, or differences between any groups.

I've noticed some common self-tardation techniques used to avoid the cognitive dissonance of noticing cultural difference, and to claim that groups are basically the same:

1) Relax, you think too much.

2) If it bothers you, go back to where you came from!

3) Change the subject asap to point to underlying similarities.

4) Immediately say that there are no groups, there are only individuals.

5) Reflexively counter with Pavlovian regularity that it's the same in your own culture, or that the differences are a small matter of degree.

I'm not yet clear on why differences piss people off so much. Are we afraid of insulting another group so badly that we wind up in another ethnic based world war? Or do we feel bad about saying things that might make others feel bad? Or do we dislike our own group being in any way maligned?

It seems people get extremely squirmy.

What are your reasons for either liking or disliking talking about cultural differences?

As much as possible I try to stay clear of these issues because these topics seem to go round in circles with often everyone either intetionally or genuinally misunderstanding each other. The main reason is, if you are talking about Thais in Thailand for example I am beginning to believe that the less educated have no idea about racism or xenophobia but in reality they practice it daily and the better educated are not bothered to know anything about racism or xenophobia and practice it daily. Caucasians are Farang, a word used in every context and thats it. Farang are outsiders, aliens, and don't count. We are in their country at their whim and they will never let you forget it.

PC Is only useful for Thais when they travel overseas. But, in their homeland you are a worthless Farang and if you go there's plenty more to take your place and they can do what they like to you and you will undoubtedly almost always lose. This observation is based on example upon example over a number of years. I, on the other hand have always been civil and generally respectful to Thais even though for no good reason, on far too many occasions, they have been quite the opposite with me.

[GuestHouse]

Reflexively counter with Pavlovian regularity that it's the same in your own culture, or that the differences are a small matter of degree.

And then....

For instance I believe in all countries and cultures there is a notion of an underclass, and some of the traits associated with them are not value neutral.

.

As an observation - A foreigner overseas viewing his host culture will do so from a foreign perspective. The Values he sees are interpreted via his own (foreign) value set. Making a judgement from that basis is always going to happen, and I see nothing wrong with it as a judgement - But there is a difference between a personal judgement and a pronouncement - There are also more serious implications where a personal judgements based on a foreign perspective are applied to the local community (for example in employment situations).

There is also a problem with monochromatic view (good/bad/right/wrong/them/us) common among new arrivals.

It is getting past these 'immature' views and arriving at the balanced view (an example from Valjean) that matters.

You might have strong views on aspects of your host culture - but you might well be misinterpreting what is going on - you might just be plain wrong.

I wouldn’t prescribe a dose of PC, nor would I advise against it, but I would certainly advise ‘Listen and learn’.

If that is you are predisposed to be able to do so.

[xsplat]

Reflexively counter with Pavlovian regularity that it's the same in your own culture, or that the differences are a small matter of degree.

And then....

For instance I believe in all countries and cultures there is a notion of an underclass, and some of the traits associated with them are not value neutral.

.

As an observation - A foreigner overseas viewing his host culture will do so from a foreign perspective. The Values he sees are interpreted via his own (foreign) value set. Making a judgement from that basis is always going to happen, and I see nothing wrong with it as a judgement - But there is a difference between a personal judgement and a pronouncement - There are also more serious implications where a personal judgements based on a foreign perspective are applied to the local community (for example in employment situations).

There is also a problem with monochromatic view (good/bad/right/wrong/them/us) common among new arrivals.

It is getting past these 'immature' views and arriving at the balanced view (an example from Valjean) that matters.

You might have strong views on aspects of your host culture - but you might well be misinterpreting what is going on - you might just be plain wrong.

I wouldn't prescribe a dose of PC, nor would I advise against it, but I would certainly advise 'Listen and learn'.

If that is you are predisposed to be able to do so.

I don't see the problem with having strong views and using ones own culture to make a value judment upon another.

However I do agree with you that nuance is always called for. As is reason, and a willingness to learn. And dialogue is the method we use for that. And body-language-dialogues break cutural barriers most pleasantly.

Having values and using ones values is inevitable.

Edited February 18, 2008 by xsplat

[Valjean]

I work in a multinational of mostly Thais and I find the discussions here are open and quite frank. It's not my experience that people shy from the issue - or that there is a sense of right or wrong to each culture. After being here for going on 3 years I still have people explain cultural issues to me. And likewise I do to people from outside Thailand within the company to help them better work with the team here. I think if you get away from "should be this way..." and just focus on the way we really are without judgments then you can have both fun with the differences and learn how to communicate better.

I'd like to think that it's not controversial that people from different cultures are different - that it's instead something that should be celebrated, shared and respected. And sometimes just good for a joke. Maybe I'm just an idealist but that's how I approach it in my daily life, at work and in my marriage.

And what about when the difference isn't value neutral? What if it is a negative trait that is being discussed, such as lying, or being rude, or being immature, or thoughtless, or not valuing education, etc. For instance I believe in all countries and cultures there is a notion of an underclass, and some of the traits associated with them are not value neutral.

Being rude is a good example. One persons rudeness is another person's directness. And talking about some things on one culture is not OK in another. In the US talking about age could be considered discriminatory, particularly if you're older, and one might take it as rudeness to be asked your age or teased about it. Yet here my team loves to tease me that I'm like a father to them. I ask them please to think of me as big brother :-) So here I don't expect the culture to change - age and rank is just so core to Thai culture it would be unnatural to expect otherwise. And I get some respect anyway.

But I know sometimes my American directness is considered rude and if I’m not careful I could hurt someone or worst have a situation where people clam up and don’t discuss things openly with me. Likewise my Thai co-workers learn to understand that I appreciate and expect people to be direct with me and even a very junior person correcting me isn’t rude. This sort of area is exactly one that it’s important to be open about and discuss the differences. They are very deep and very, very important. Sometimes I realize I really need to shut up, let the meeting go into Thai and let people sort out issues in a more indirect Thai way. Other times I just say I’m sorry, I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings but here is how I see the situation – very bluntly. Sometimes I’d say “I know it’s hard for you as Thai’s to discuss an issue like this in this way but I need you to speak up and just say what you are thinking.” It’s situational.

Lying is tough. Outright bold face lies are not OK. However there are one million shades of gray to sharing of information and following social norms. If my mother asks me what I think of her new hairdo I’m going to say “it looks nice” no matter what my opinion is. Or when I ask someone on my team “are you happy?” – do I expect a truthful answer or have I put a junior person in an untenable position to give an honest answer? How about being asked “Are you gay?” if you are working in a conservative US company. Is lying in that situation OK if there would be serious negative outcomes? We all have different norms about telling the truth in different situations. I think you do have to accept that different cultures might have a different approach to the truth and a different path to get to it. It’s complex but I don’t think truth is a black and white issue. One person with lots of coaching experience across Asia suggested to me once to try “What” questions before “Why” questions. “What happened?” is a better place to start getting a direct, honest answer than “Why did this happen?” which could involve more complex considerations to answer. (saying something bad about someone else for instance).

I guess I could write a book on this topic but plenty of others have. In the end I think you have to look deep in your own heart and decide what you really want in the interactions and relationships with the people around you. You get what you give.

[xsplat]

I work in a multinational of mostly Thais and I find the discussions here are open and quite frank. It's not my experience that people shy from the issue - or that there is a sense of right or wrong to each culture. After being here for going on 3 years I still have people explain cultural issues to me. And likewise I do to people from outside Thailand within the company to help them better work with the team here. I think if you get away from "should be this way..." and just focus on the way we really are without judgments then you can have both fun with the differences and learn how to communicate better.

I'd like to think that it's not controversial that people from different cultures are different - that it's instead something that should be celebrated, shared and respected. And sometimes just good for a joke. Maybe I'm just an idealist but that's how I approach it in my daily life, at work and in my marriage.

And what about when the difference isn't value neutral? What if it is a negative trait that is being discussed, such as lying, or being rude, or being immature, or thoughtless, or not valuing education, etc. For instance I believe in all countries and cultures there is a notion of an underclass, and some of the traits associated with them are not value neutral.

Being rude is a good example. One persons rudeness is another person's directness. And talking about some things on one culture is not OK in another. In the US talking about age could be considered discriminatory, particularly if you're older, and one might take it as rudeness to be asked your age or teased about it. Yet here my team loves to tease me that I'm like a father to them. I ask them please to think of me as big brother :-) So here I don't expect the culture to change - age and rank is just so core to Thai culture it would be unnatural to expect otherwise. And I get some respect anyway.

But I know sometimes my American directness is considered rude and if I'm not careful I could hurt someone or worst have a situation where people clam up and don't discuss things openly with me. Likewise my Thai co-workers learn to understand that I appreciate and expect people to be direct with me and even a very junior person correcting me isn't rude. This sort of area is exactly one that it's important to be open about and discuss the differences. They are very deep and very, very important. Sometimes I realize I really need to shut up, let the meeting go into Thai and let people sort out issues in a more indirect Thai way. Other times I just say I'm sorry, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but here is how I see the situation – very bluntly. Sometimes I'd say "I know it's hard for you as Thai's to discuss an issue like this in this way but I need you to speak up and just say what you are thinking." It's situational.

Lying is tough. Outright bold face lies are not OK. However there are one million shades of gray to sharing of information and following social norms. If my mother asks me what I think of her new hairdo I'm going to say "it looks nice" no matter what my opinion is. Or when I ask someone on my team "are you happy?" – do I expect a truthful answer or have I put a junior person in an untenable position to give an honest answer? How about being asked "Are you gay?" if you are working in a conservative US company. Is lying in that situation OK if there would be serious negative outcomes? We all have different norms about telling the truth in different situations. I think you do have to accept that different cultures might have a different approach to the truth and a different path to get to it. It's complex but I don't think truth is a black and white issue. One person with lots of coaching experience across Asia suggested to me once to try "What" questions before "Why" questions. "What happened?" is a better place to start getting a direct, honest answer than "Why did this happen?" which could involve more complex considerations to answer. (saying something bad about someone else for instance).

I guess I could write a book on this topic but plenty of others have. In the end I think you have to look deep in your own heart and decide what you really want in the interactions and relationships with the people around you. You get what you give.

Three things here stick out to me:

1) Norms, versus values. I agree that we have to pay very close attention to norms, and not expect other peoples norms to be as flexible as we'd like. I also feel that values are not necessarily merely norms.

2) You get what you give. I very strongly disagree with this. No matter how good a ping pong player you are, you can't get a great game with a novice. In all the two hundred and sixty two important ways that people interact, we get what we both give.

3) I agree with you that pragmatics is what it is all about. Managing the social interactions pragmatically.

But all this still begs my original question. People do tend to get very squirmy, when their values are not upheld by a different culture, and they want to talk about this. I agree with you that it doesn't have to be about Manchester United vs Brazil; it doesn't have to be about us versus them, right versus, wrong, black versus white. But no matter how inclusive and understanding we are, no matter how pragmatic, values are simply inescable. And cultures get higher and lower marks in various areas we value.

What I hear from you is that values are entirely culturally dependent, meaning they are arbitrary. Even if this were true (and I don't believe that it is), I can't believe that your values are arbitrary to you.

Edited February 18, 2008 by xsplat

[Maigo6]

Relax, you think too much.

If it bothers you, go back to where you came from!

There are no groups, there are only individuals.

It's the same in my own culture, the differences are a small matter of degree.

[Valjean]

Three things here stick out to me:

1) Norms, versus values. I agree that we have to pay very close attention to norms, and not expect other peoples norms to be as flexible as we'd like. I also feel that values are not necessarily merely norms.

2) You get what you give. I very strongly disagree with this. No matter how good a ping pong player you are, you can't get a great game with a novice. In all the two hundred and sixty two important ways that people interact, we get what we both give.

3) I agree with you that pragmatics is what it is all about. Managing the social interactions pragmatically.

But all this still begs my original question. People do tend to get very squirmy, when their values are not upheld by a different culture, and they want to talk about this. I agree with you that it doesn't have to be about Manchester United vs Brazil; it doesn't have to be about us versus them, right versus, wrong, black versus white. But no matter how inclusive and understanding we are, no matter how pragmatic, values are simply inescable. And cultures get higher and lower marks in various areas we value.

What I hear from you is that values are entirely culturally dependent, meaning they are arbitrary. Even if this were true (and I don't believe that it is), I can't believe that your values are arbitrary to you.

I guess I'd have to think a lot more about norms versus values. I don't think they are arbitrary but I'm not sure if there are absolutes. I guess it's personal but it's just not how I approach things so I don't quite know what to say.

I didn't mean gets and gives in a quid pro quo way. You can be nice to everyone you meet and sometimes you meet a thief. I move away from bad people (which I guess might be a place where my values come into play over norms). But in my life and my experience in aggregate the quality of integrations and relationships I have is directly proportional to what I put into them.

My world is full of people just as imperfect as I am so I guess to some extent it’s a thing of expectations and a dance of sorts one does with the people around them. I’m trying hard to find the best in people and be the best I can be for them. It just seems to work better for me to focus on understanding and not judging. To the OP’s question I find that dealing with cultural differences work OK for me when I approach them this way. But I’m just one man with his own approach to this. In the end each person has their own way.

[xsplat]

It just seems to work better for me to focus on understanding and not judging.

Hey! I like that idea, and I think it is at the root of my confusion. I think the reason people get so wormy-squirmy about facing the discomforts of cultural clashes is that we see a difference between judging and understanding.

For me, I don't see the difference. I think we can judge, and be inclusive.

In fact I think I should say that in starker, stronger terms. I think we have no choice but to judge, and we can do so either consciously, or unconsciously. Sure, we can try our best to be agnostic whenever a judgment call creeps into awareness, but that's just hitting ourself over the head with the self-tardation hammer.

Edited February 18, 2008 by xsplat

[Valjean]

It just seems to work better for me to focus on understanding and not judging.

Hey! I like that idea, and I think it is at the root of my confusion. I think the reason people get so wormy-squirmy about facing the discomforts of cultural clashes is that we see a difference between judging and understanding.

For me, I don't see the difference. I think we can judge, and be inclusive.

In fact I think I should say that in starker, stronger terms. I think we have no choice but to judge, and we can do so either consciously, or unconsciously. Sure, we can try our best to be agnostic whenever a judgment call creeps into awareness, but that's just hitting ourself over the head with the self-tardation hammer.

I'll let my avatar be my last word and clue into my thinking on right and wrong, good and bad, judgement and the search for justice in all of this.

[xsplat]

I'll let my avatar be my last word and clue into my thinking on right and wrong, good and bad, judgement and the search for justice in all of this.

Tee hee. Body language deserves the last word.

[kiakaha]

It's always controversial to discuss cultural differences, or differences between any groups.

I've noticed some common self-tardation techniques used to avoid the cognitive dissonance of noticing cultural difference, and to claim that groups are basically the same:

1) Relax, you think too much.

2) If it bothers you, go back to where you came from!

3) Change the subject asap to point to underlying similarities.

4) Immediately say that there are no groups, there are only individuals.

5) Reflexively counter with Pavlovian regularity that it's the same in your own culture, or that the differences are a small matter of degree.

I'm not yet clear on why differences piss people off so much. Are we afraid of insulting another group so badly that we wind up in another ethnic based world war? Or do we feel bad about saying things that might make others feel bad? Or do we dislike our own group being in any way maligned?

It seems people get extremely squirmy.

What are your reasons for either liking or disliking talking about cultural differences?

Someone else who thinks the same :

http://stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader4220.htm

[Briggsy]

Top notch detective work. Expose the plagiarist.

[micksterbs]

OP, OP, wherefore art thou, OP?

[kiakaha]

Top notch detective work. Expose the plagiarist.

For some reason, the word "self-tardation" stuck in my mind..haha.

To the OP's credit , I dont think its plagarism...that link is dated after the original post.

Maybe just a case of "serial self tardation"

[thaihome]

.....

No matter how good a ping pong player you are, you can't get a great game with a novice. ...

I think your choice of an analogy says a lot about your perspective.

TH

[wanderer9020]

i worked with tons of different nationalities, different culture, but one thing Im sure, were all human and have something in common. My first encounter with a culture that almost blown me, is an Indian,a collegue, who just go to my desk, and announce, hey! give me your cd....Now, when I encountered Indian, i do the same, ( it appears, that , the word CAN I BORROW ), is not in thier vocabulary. So be it, thats the way it is. Im happy dealing with different cultures, no matter how bad it is.Or probably, because I was raised to be tolerant in all aspects of life...

[ade100]

I think cultural differences are very interesting to discuss when people have some knowledge about these differences. However I find cultural stereotypes very dull.

Before coming to Asia I lived in various European countries and I got very tired of hearing “the Germans are boring and have no sense of humour, the English are a-sexual and can’t cook, the French are sexy, the Italians are crazy, blah blah..” I felt like saying “have you ever actually spoken to a German?”

Similarly in Thailand, but not so much on TV, there are guys talking at length about Thai culture and Thai women when in fact they are only really talking about a few Thai prostitutes that they have known.

I reckon I could live in Thailand for another twenty years and still only have the vaguest idea of what Thai culture is all about.

[girlx]

excellent topic

[jetjock]

Being very cautious to be 'politically correct' in discussion groups seems to be very much in vogue these days. Ever since I heard that the definition of 'politically correct' is a person that thinks he can pick up a turd from the clean end, I have never thought of myself as wanting to be politically correct.

edited 4 spelling

Edited February 27, 2008 by jetjock

[xsplat]

.....

No matter how good a ping pong player you are, you can't get a great game with a novice. ...

I think your choice of an analogy says a lot about your perspective.

TH

I'm not sure what you mean, but here is another relationship analogy I like to use. Improv jazz.

Whatever analogy you use, what happens between two people is not the same as what happens between one person and a TV set. The quality of interaction depends on both people.

[xsplat]

Being very cautious to be 'politically correct' in discussion groups seems to be very much in vogue these days. Ever since I heard that the definition of 'politically correct' is a person that thinks he can pick up a turd from the clean end, I have never thought of myself as wanting to be politically correct.

Because I am a sociotard, I have no natural ability at getting my point across. I'm usually too blunt.

Writing on forums helps with this as I get feedback on what works. The most difficult and most effective way to get uncomfortable points across seems to be with humor. That's going to take a few more years of practice.

[seonai]

[xsplat]

An emoticon speaker? It's open season you, kid.

[Thai at Heart]

An emoticon speaker? It's open season you, kid.

To get by in Thailand, I simply try to imagine what it would have been like living in Victorian England.

[MarkBKK]

An emoticon speaker? It's open season you, kid.

To get by in Thailand, I simply try to imagine what it would have been like living in Victorian England.

Ah ... gin 1d. a pint, brothels run by the church, all the opium you could smoke, all the coke you could snort ... yes, those were the days. Must have been smashing.