Is Talking About Cultural Differences Taboo?

[barky]

An emoticon speaker? It's open season you, kid.

To get by in Thailand, I simply try to imagine what it would have been like living in Victorian England.

One way to get by in Thailand is to have as little to do with the Thais as you can (outside your immediate circle eg: wife, that is).

[gunnyd]

One way to get by in Thailand is to have as little to do with the Thais as you can (outside your immediate circle eg: wife, that is).

I hope you are being sarcastic. What would be the point of going to an exotic Third World country if you don't "go native". And as for talking about cultural differences, do so with tact always.

3 things to talk about if you want to start an argument: Politics, sex, and religion. I know it's old and tired, but it is cogent. As for being PC, when I am at home in America, I try to make a point of not being PC.

As for LOS when in Rome..... If you can't respect the culture or take the time and effort to learn about the country you are a guest in, you need to go home.

GunnyD

Edited March 1, 2008 by gunnyd

[girlx]

One way to get by in Thailand is to have as little to do with the Thais as you can (outside your immediate circle eg: wife, that is).

unfortunately, i have found this is true as well.

[Jingthing]

I hope you are being sarcastic. What would be the point of going to an exotic Third World country if you don't "go native".

Go native? How far?

Picking nose in public far?

Loving squat toilets far?

Riding on moto with 5 babies far?

[girlx]

well the problem with going native is that you are not going to be accepted as a native by the thais, period. you might eventually be tolerated affectionately. and it is a long and slippery slope of clearing the path of brambly cultural differences before you get up to that point. sometimes you have to tune all that peripheral discomfort out to be happy, and take it slowly. thais who really connect with you and are worth being friends with will watch you and make the decision to proceed with the friendship. or they won't, and that's that. same in any mixed race community really. i have heard the same thing (stay away from the locals except to be polite and you will be fine) in the philippines, south america, etc. i don't think it is fear or racism as much as it is keeping the peace.

[mellow1]

They don't want Farangs here who want to go native. That's why they have visa requirements in the form of income, they have plenty of natives already. These natives would like to acquire a better lifestyle, and will most probably not be impressed by you, adopting theirs.

[gunnyd]

You guys are taking me far to literally, what I mean by "going native" is mixing with the locals, riding the BTS, Metro, and buses, learning some Thai, etc. What the poster I quoted made it sound like is that expats should be gathered in a "farangland" kind of like the various Chinatowns across the world and not leave their insulated community. Come on y'all are taking this way too seriously

GunnyD

Edited March 1, 2008 by gunnyd

[mellow1]

You guys are taking me far to literally, what I mean by "going native" is mixing with the locals, riding the BTS, Metro, and buses, learning some Thai, etc. What the poster I quoted made it sound like is that expats should be gathered in a "farangland" kind of like the various Chinatowns across the world and not leave their insulated community. Come on y'all are taking this way too seriously

GunnyD

Tell us how well your mixing with the locals is working out, and how long you have lived here. Do you think I should get a buffalo and walk around with it, so I can hang out with the neighbors? The Thais which I would have the most in common with, live in town and work about 6 1/2 days a week, and don't need me hanging around for the half day, they have off. The ones with a lot of free time in soyX with an almost finished plastic baggy of Kow Lao, I don't want to know.

[girlx]

what I mean by "going native" is mixing with the locals, riding the BTS, Metro, and buses, learning some Thai, etc.

it depends on where you live... some places (like bangkok) it is easier than others.

[GuestHouse]

Some some very interesting analysis in Control Theory that explains different responses to a disturbance - In the case of people this may be - Moving home, changing jobs and by implication moving to another culture.

Some people never adjust - Encapsulating their life in some memory of their past.

Some people over adjust - Ditching everything and going through the bamboo curtain

Some people adjust at a median point.

Interestingly people who achieve this latter equilibrium tend to do so by first over reacting - going too far across the cultural line, then swinging back too far the otherway before eventually settling in their comfort zone. The swings over their comfort zone are important for them to find where they are comfortable.

Something like this Response to step change

Also interesting is that people who take these early swings across culture are the people who settle down the quickest.

So 'going native' to some extent is a good thing, provided you don't loose your compass.

[Valjean]

There are a number of ways that I think one mix with the locals or go native in a way that can be both authentic to who you are and appreciated by the Thais.

In terms of going native – I don’t think most people want to pretend to be what they aren’t and most of us don’t like people pretending to be something they aren’t. But there are lots of going native things you can do that are loved by the Thais.

Singing Karaoke would be a great example. If it’s a western song that’s fine but they like to see you join the fun. If you could learn one in Thai – it’s a “going local” that will make you a superstar. At a company meeting last month we had a party and singing and one long term farang expat totally surprised everyone by singing very well a famous Thai song – without the promoter. He won the award that evening by acclimation. Did everyone say “why is this farang singing Karaoke in Thai when he would never do that back home?” Of course not, they loved it. And now my Thai team is determined to make sure I know one Thai song for the next company party.

Teaching in schools or doing any sort of volunteer work is good. The first few times I came to Thailand for longer periods volunteered as an English teacher in a public Bangkok school. The first time I didn’t speak 20 words of Thai. It was hard work but a lot of fun. And every day I’d have lunch with the teachers and get a chance to know people a little and experience Thailand and Thais. I don’t think there’s a school in Thailand that wouldn’t welcome someone helping with English or computers or something. Or other organizations. So if you’re not working it’s a way to mix. No matter how far you are out in the country there’s a school with a college educated teacher who would welcome your help.

I’m also big on being a regular as some stores, restaurants, street carts, motorcycle drivers, etc. It’s a network of people who know you. Sure they aren’t friends and the majority wouldn’t be candidates for that but they are people who know me, who we share small talk about this and that, who when I don’t order the same thing they have questions, and so on. It’s my community and that’s important to me so I invest in it.

I’ve got a little side business and though there are parts of the work I could outsource to anywhere I like to have local connections of freelancers I work with. We meet, have projects, learn about each other, have coffee. Ongoing relationships of one sort of another with Thais is to me enriching and a fun part of living here.

I just don’t buy for a New York second that any attempt to join in the culture and fun of Thailand as a Thai would is always going to be looked down on by Thais – my experience is exactly the opposite. And I think you can be true to who you are at the same time. Knowing how to do an offering properly at a temple is not an abdication of your true self (assuming it’s not a religious principle for you) and it only confers respect from the Thais because you are showing respect to them.

Maybe this is very judgmental on my part but if I felt looked down on, isolated, shut out, not welcomed, not respected or appreciated the first place I’d take a long hard look would be the mirror. And I’d ask myself – “what have I done to create this situation?”

Lastly Guesthouse's comments are very good. I think I've gone both ways - not joining in and going too far. There is a middle that works out pretty good most of the time

[mistresserika]

I hope you are being sarcastic. What would be the point of going to an exotic Third World country if you don't "go native".

Go native? How far?

Picking nose in public far?

Loving squat toilets far?

Riding on moto with 5 babies far?

Don't forget clearing your throat and spitting it out, hopefully hitting the motorcycle behind you.

[mistresserika]

I hope you are being sarcastic. What would be the point of going to an exotic Third World country if you don't "go native".

Go native? How far?

Picking nose in public far?

Loving squat toilets far?

Riding on moto with 5 babies far?

Don't forget clearing your throat and spitting out, hopefully hitting the motorcycle behind you, far

[gunnyd]

Go native? How far?

Picking nose in public far?

I usually try to turn away when I do it, but I am a guy so yes I pick my nose in public and am not too proud to admit it.

Loving squat toilets far?

Loving, not really, but given the choice of digging a hole in the woods and a porcelain squat toilet, I'll take the latter.

Riding on moto with 5 babies far?

I don't think that endangering your family members really is on subject. And being an experienced biker (started at 13 years old) no I wouldn't ride with more than 1 passenger or without proper safety gear.

I guess my interpretation of "going native" is skewed by my military service. Some soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines choose to remain on base when they are deployed to various parts of the world and never get out to experience their host country. I was that way when I first joined. I found that getting off base and out into the community with the locals to be a very enriching experience. We were given seminars on the local cultural differences when we arrived at a new post, and Command encouraged us not to seclude ourselves, but to get out and be good ambassadors of our country i.e. not be "ugly Americans".

I didn't realize the suggestion that getting to know the culture and locals i.e. "go native" would bring such a visceral response from some members. I am just expressing my opinion from personal experience. How do you find out what the culture is like or what is the norm or taboo unless you get out. As for those of you that can't get out because of your heavy work schedule that you don't have the time. Being on pension, if I didn't get out I would get real bored, really quick.

Can't a guy give a response without getting blasted? Oh well you can't please all the people all the time. I guess I'll take it on the chin and turn the other cheek.

GunnyD

[mellow1]

^ No one is blasting you. I go out, interact, I do not try to become a different person, other than who I am, because I am in a different culture. I do not become a Buddhist because the majority of the population is. I do however attempt to learn about cultural differences. Respect individuals as I would anywhere else. I choose whom to befriends carefully, as I would in my own country, and only believe a small percentage of the stories laid upon me, until I see otherwise. Mind my own business, and take care of my own. That keeps me pretty busy, and occupied. The cultural differences are really not that great, neither is human nature.

[Spee]

Some some very interesting analysis in Control Theory that explains different responses to a disturbance - In the case of people this may be - Moving home, changing jobs and by implication moving to another culture.

Some people never adjust - Encapsulating their life in some memory of their past.

Some people over adjust - Ditching everything and going through the bamboo curtain

Some people adjust at a median point.

Interestingly people who achieve this latter equilibrium tend to do so by first over reacting - going too far across the cultural line, then swinging back too far the otherway before eventually settling in their comfort zone. The swings over their comfort zone are important for them to find where they are comfortable.

Something like this Response to step change

Also interesting is that people who take these early swings across culture are the people who settle down the quickest.

So 'going native' to some extent is a good thing, provided you don't loose your compass.

Anyone ever tell you ... "Yer way too smart for yer own good!" Good post.

For my own 2p worth, it's not the salve to all that ails ya, but I would recommend to all a read of Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Applying those principles can help anyone adapt to any culture, much less specific situations in one's own native culture.

[DirkGently]

"What if it is a negative trait that is being discussed, such as lying, or being rude, or being immature, or thoughtless, or not valuing education, etc."

By this you are clearly referring to Thais, as these comments come up often. Whilst I may agree to some extent, I think your well written post, and the'double speak' (value-neutral) it contains is just a well written 'pop' at the natives.

[micksterbs]

There are a number of ways that I think one mix with the locals or go native in a way that can be both authentic to who you are and appreciated by the Thais.

In terms of going native – I don't think most people want to pretend to be what they aren't and most of us don't like people pretending to be something they aren't. But there are lots of going native things you can do that are loved by the Thais.

Singing Karaoke would be a great example. If it's a western song that's fine but they like to see you join the fun. If you could learn one in Thai – it's a "going local" that will make you a superstar. At a company meeting last month we had a party and singing and one long term farang expat totally surprised everyone by singing very well a famous Thai song – without the promoter. He won the award that evening by acclimation. Did everyone say "why is this farang singing Karaoke in Thai when he would never do that back home?" Of course not, they loved it. And now my Thai team is determined to make sure I know one Thai song for the next company party.

Teaching in schools or doing any sort of volunteer work is good. The first few times I came to Thailand for longer periods volunteered as an English teacher in a public Bangkok school. The first time I didn't speak 20 words of Thai. It was hard work but a lot of fun. And every day I'd have lunch with the teachers and get a chance to know people a little and experience Thailand and Thais. I don't think there's a school in Thailand that wouldn't welcome someone helping with English or computers or something. Or other organizations. So if you're not working it's a way to mix. No matter how far you are out in the country there's a school with a college educated teacher who would welcome your help.

I'm also big on being a regular as some stores, restaurants, street carts, motorcycle drivers, etc. It's a network of people who know you. Sure they aren't friends and the majority wouldn't be candidates for that but they are people who know me, who we share small talk about this and that, who when I don't order the same thing they have questions, and so on. It's my community and that's important to me so I invest in it.

I've got a little side business and though there are parts of the work I could outsource to anywhere I like to have local connections of freelancers I work with. We meet, have projects, learn about each other, have coffee. Ongoing relationships of one sort of another with Thais is to me enriching and a fun part of living here.

I just don't buy for a New York second that any attempt to join in the culture and fun of Thailand as a Thai would is always going to be looked down on by Thais – my experience is exactly the opposite. And I think you can be true to who you are at the same time. Knowing how to do an offering properly at a temple is not an abdication of your true self (assuming it's not a religious principle for you) and it only confers respect from the Thais because you are showing respect to them.

Maybe this is very judgmental on my part but if I felt looked down on, isolated, shut out, not welcomed, not respected or appreciated the first place I'd take a long hard look would be the mirror. And I'd ask myself – "what have I done to create this situation?"

Lastly Guesthouse's comments are very good. I think I've gone both ways - not joining in and going too far. There is a middle that works out pretty good most of the time

A good point, well-made.

[xsplat]

"What if it is a negative trait that is being discussed, such as lying, or being rude, or being immature, or thoughtless, or not valuing education, etc."

By this you are clearly referring to Thais, as these comments come up often. Whilst I may agree to some extent, I think your well written post, and the'double speak' (value-neutral) it contains is just a well written 'pop' at the natives.

It seems to me you are saying that there is no polite or acceptable way to say something derogatory about a group. That doing so is "taking a pop".

I'd like to suggest that a speech taboo is a self-tardation.

I wonder what you'd think of the style of homor of this blog post "Why can’t we all just get along? Because you are an idiot, that’s why." at http://xsplat.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/do-...-still-get-laid

Edited March 3, 2008 by xsplat

[xsplat]

Many people nowadays are revolting against what they feel is an oppressive cultural demand to be overly sensititive to other peoples feelings, and this is the anti-politically correct movement

[xsplat]

For instance:

extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated.

sounds similar to

extremely negative views will not be tolerated.

And then you have to wonder why? What is wrong with having a value system and expressing it? Comparisons piss people off, and I think it is political. One group not wanting be dominated and oppressed, and using the defense tool of complaining about another group using bad words at them. But values are totally unavoidable, whether we express them or not, and not expressing them leads to more ignorance than does expressing them.

Edited March 3, 2008 by xsplat

[DirkGently]

OP! I am far from PC. I just thought your attempt to dress up a post that could have started, "I think Thais are.......", would have saved the Orwellian double-speak.

I personally think no group has the right not to be offended. Just look at some of the lower orders in Bangkok.

[xsplat]

OP! I am far from PC. I just thought your attempt to dress up a post that could have started, "I think Thais are.......", would have saved the Orwellian double-speak.

I personally think no group has the right not to be offended. Just look at some of the lower orders in Bangkok.

I was trying to avoid the itchy trigger finger of the forum censors, but I was not trying to be obscure. The cultural differences I mention happen within all of our own countries. It's about social groups and class also.

Edited March 4, 2008 by xsplat

[xsplat]

deleted as I replied to the wrong thread

Edited March 4, 2008 by xsplat