Plz Help Me With My Question

[PeaceBlondie]

Da, good question, although your nieces are possibly in schools which do not have good native speaker-teachers.

A good native-speaker/TEFL teacher can explain grammar, speak clearly, and surely tries much harder and more successfully to teach conversational skills than the average Thai teacher of EFL. Even the good teacher (and you have heard on this thread from some great English teachers, native speakers) finds it nearly impossible to overcome the bad teaching of five to ten years that the students bring to M2, M4, etc.

Yes, native speakers can teach English effectively without speaking Thai. Yes!

[KhaoNiaw]

I would say that the standard of English teaching in universities is quite high, especially from the Thai teachers. Generally, the Thai lecturers provide excellent models for students to aspire to (in terms of English language use and pronunciation, for example) and are more highly qualified and knowledgeable about the language than many of their foreign colleagues (as salaries and working conditions mean that universities here can often only attract ordinary TEFLers). Only a very small proportion of second language learners reach anything approaching native-like language use, especially pronunciation, so it is with the Thai teachers that students can find appropriate models.

Thais I know who have the best English language skills generally came through the old school type of system. Fewer people went to university in the past, so someone of, perhaps, 35+ with a university education is likely to be of a more elite group than those passing through the university conveyor belt these days. But it's interesting that the 'old school' were able to do so much better than many of the youngsters today who are exposed to western culture and teaching methods, not to mention MSN and the Internet.

[KonKru]

Having got 6 years of teaching in Thailand on my resume, I couldn't agree more with Cosmo.

The same way they call Mr.Taksin back again, the same way the system will stay corrupt and

stupid people are far more easy to handle, so education is pushed to the end of the list again.

As I said already: If you don't apply to their corruption, they'll sack you and the students will be

taught by Thai staff the traditional way, getting flied lice again, who cares!

Sabai, sabai, go along and you'll be fine.

Edited February 24, 2008 by KonKru

[CosmicSurfer]

A good native-speaker/TEFL teacher can explain grammar, speak clearly, and surely tries much harder and more successfully to teach conversational skills than the average Thai teacher of EFL. Even the good teacher (and you have heard on this thread from some great English teachers, native speakers) finds it nearly impossible to overcome the bad teaching of five to ten years that the students bring to M2, M4, etc.

Have you heard the one about the M6 student who couldn't answer his final conversation exam question - "What did you do last weekend?"

I don't mean he gave a wrong answer.. I mean no answer at all.. Nothing.. Nada... Not a word... Complete Silence.

And then the Native Teacher was told that "the Student has to pass", or it will effect his GPA, and it was the Teacher's responsibility to teach the Student so he could pass.

BTW... The minimum passing Grade requirement was a ONE Sentence Answer.. Even if that one sentence was one word, that showed comprehension... "Nothing!"... Pass.

True story.. I was the Teacher... I asked the other Level 6 Thai teacher how I could possibly teach a student that had studied English for the past 12 years of schooling (Patom 1-6 + Matayom 1-6) and still couldn't answer this one simple basic question. Even the BEST Qualified Native-Speaker can't do the Impossible...

Where were all his other English teachers for the past 12 years?? How did he ever get into a Level 6 English class if he couldn't maintain this level??? Why are the English classes kept together instead of re-organized by ability and competency??? Why are we using this level 6 English Book, with the Big "6" on the cover, when it was clearly meant for Advanced English speakers (Thai Uni students couldn't even understand it) and NOT meant as an indicator of School Grade level. Why are we trying to cram a whole book into 2 hours a week / 4 weeks a month / 8 Months a year (approximately) less Holidays, Exam Weeks and other extra curricular and unscheduled missed/canceled lessons ?????????? If the students are lucky enough to actually get this much.. If they decide to participate in the class.. If they do their homework (which is of course the lowest priority) and mostly IF They Won't Even "TRY" ?????

My marking sheet was done in pencil on an English translation of the Official Thai record sheet, meaning all my marks had to be transferred to the official form.. I told them that these were my marks.. what they did with them after was their business.. my job ended after turning them in.. and Thai Education goes on.

Of course this student wanted to go to Chula or Abac etc, so he had absolutely NO HOPE of passing the English Entrance Exam.. But at least he was on the Matayom books as a "Pass"...

Luckily for me this was a rare example and I had some Great classes.. but out of 14 or 15 classes at each grade level, a Teacher is lucky to find even one "King" class.. which still will have a dud-student that has been placed there not because of scholastic aptitude, but due to parental social standing and payment of "Tea Money".

Chalk up another Success for the Thai School system,

CS

[haltes]

They get a real shock when they take a real test of English proficiency like IELTS for which they can't cheat and for which there is no automatic pass.

I wonder if the schools can explain the to parents that in spite of 12 years of studying English (and sometimes even studying IN ENGLISH), their child is not even an intermediate user of English.

[CosmicSurfer]

They get a real shock when they take a real test of English proficiency like IELTS for which they can't cheat and for which there is no automatic pass.

How True...

I can't wait to see the new Comparative Global results of the new Style TOEFL Test. I bet Thailand scores very close to the bottom.

No More Multiple Choice Questions....

You need to read something.. Then Listen to Something.. then Answer a series of questions Verbally On-Line, based on the Reading and Listening...

You are graded on your comprehension of the material and the fluency and accuracy of your answers.

No way to fake this test or to squeak through.

No way to "teach the Test"

My oh my.. What to Do???

Fixing the system may be a good start.

CS

[KonKru]

How true, but there is nobody who is going to fix it, cause they like it the way it is.

So Thai teachers can drive their brandnew pickups to work bought from the teamoney.

Who is gonna blame them.

Even if we do succeed to teach the odd one out the use of the English language, we might

see those brilliant students back in Soi 4 Sukumvit picking up foreigners for a job which can pay up

to 100.000 baht a month. Happend to me on 2 occasions!

Don't worry, at least these students realized that speaking English is important.

No honey, no money.

Edited February 25, 2008 by KonKru

[KhaoNiaw]

One thing that genuinely interests me in a lot of these threads is why people are so horrified that pupils are allowed to move up to the next grade when they've 'failed'. I grew up in the UK and that seems quite normal to me. I only ever remember 1 boy being kept down a year and that was because he did poorly practically every subject and had discipline issues as well. Otherwise, as far as I remember, you didn't actually pass or fail but just went up each year and eventually worked out how many O-levels you'd take and then go on to A-levels if you wanted. It's probably all different now but I don't really see why kids should be kept down because they fail to pass a foreign language that they may never need.

[CosmicSurfer]

... Otherwise, as far as I remember, you didn't actually pass or fail but just went up each year and eventually worked out how many O-levels you'd take and then go on to A-levels if you wanted.

And just how do you get "educated" in this type of system???

How do you keep up with your peers without feeling frustrated and left out?

How long before you drop-out of the system altogether?

Luckily in Thailand Students can rely on Family Connections and Social Status to maintain a life style and sustenance.

But in the UK I imagine you are left to drift along until you sink.

I know you would in the USA or Canada.

It's probably all different now but I don't really see why kids should be kept down because they fail to pass a foreign language that they may never need.

But that is the point... THEY DO NEED English if they want to improve themselves....

As I pointed out earlier and KonKru did just above.. Even Tuk Tuk drivers and Bar Girls make more money when they can speak English well.

And how many business people need English in an Export oriented Global Village? Or is the Tourist industry? Or almost Every other job you can think of short of common laborer.. Even Factory workers can do better if they speak English.

The only Thai's that don't need English are the Farmers, who will never learn about Modern agrarian systems and farming, due to their lack of education...

But this problem is NOT ONLY reflected in the study if English.. It extends to all subjects taught.

The system is rotten.. All Subjects and All Levels...

CS

[Ski_Goong]

I spoke to two of my neices, who are both in thier late teens and are both studying in BKK (different schools) They both say the same thing to me, that they can not understand the native english teacher, that the teacher can not explain about grammar and how the launguage works compared to Thai. They find it frustrating and very boaring. How can a person teach a new language to a forigan national if that person does not speak Thai? I am sure that some people will take this the wrong way but i`m not wanting to offend, just a question i would like your opinion on.

Da

This is the argument I often used against parents who want the children to learn "proper" English from a "real" Farang. I ask them to ask me a question in Thai and I will "explain" in "perfect" English. I then ask them what I had said. Of course they have no clue but they do get the point. Most of these people do not sign up for my class because I made them lose "face" but I don't want their business anyway.

I can't stand Thais/people who only want or do things just for "face" value alone. Yes, learning English from a native speaker is great but if your English is so basic that you can't understand the teacher than you are wasting your time. Also, if you think the Dutch, the French or the Scots are "native" speakers because they are white than you have an even bigger problem.

Ski...Ajarn

[Ski_Goong]

Yes, native speakers can teach English effectively without speaking Thai. Yes!

Humor me. I would like to teach you Thai for FREE. Only stipulation: will not use any English and I get to video tape you trying to learn. If you are already fluent in Thai, we can find another "Farang" to experiment on.

Ski...Ajarn

[wilko]

Thailand has spent a lot of money and effort to employ native language speakers on the national English program....how many Brits/Aussies/ or Americans were taught any foreign language at school that featured a native speaker?

Perhaps not a native speaker, but one who was certainly fluent in a second language. In your aforementioned countries, people who major in a foreign language HAVE to be fluent in it. You cannot graduate with a degree in Spanish and not speak Spanish. In Thailand, you CAN graduate with a degree in English and not speak English. That makes it rather difficult to teach English. After all, how can you teach something you don't know? Hence, the need for native speakers of English.

I'm sorry but I don't think you understand the principle of being taught by a native speaker AND the definition of "fluency" certainly few of my UK teachers were fluent.

speaking is only one aspect of language aquisition and you will find that many non-native teachers are OK in these aspects

teach something you don't know?

Now if you were a good teacher you would know what a ridiculous question that is.

[wilko]

Yes, native speakers can teach English effectively without speaking Thai. Yes!

Humor me. I would like to teach you Thai for FREE. Only stipulation: will not use any English and I get to video tape you trying to learn. If you are already fluent in Thai, we can find another "Farang" to experiment on.

Ski...Ajarn

I accept so long as you are a qualified teacher of Thai as a foreign language [TTFL]

1st principle of TEFL [Teaching English as a foriegn language] - (how did you as a native speaker learn your mother tongue)?

Thai is often BANNED in an English class with a native English teacher whether or not he can speak Thai.

furthermore this method works with multi-national classes.

Edited February 25, 2008 by wilko

[Ski_Goong]

Yes, native speakers can teach English effectively without speaking Thai. Yes!

Humor me. I would like to teach you Thai for FREE. Only stipulation: will not use any English and I get to video tape you trying to learn. If you are already fluent in Thai, we can find another "Farang" to experiment on.

Ski...Ajarn

I accept so long as you are a qualified teacher of Thai as a foreign language [TTFL]

1st principle of TEFL [Teaching English as a foriegn language] - (how did you as a native speaker learn your mother tongue)?

Thai is often BANNED in an English class with a native English teacher whether or not he can speak Thai.

furthermore this method works with multi-national classes.

Ok. Since I am not qualified to teach Thai, I'll pay for your class....but I still get to video tape you

Ski...Ajarn

[wilko]

Deal! PM me when you find suitably qualified a teacher!

[KonKru]

Excuse me Mr.Whitevan, I tought English in Holland, Germany and Switzerland, without speaking any Dutch, German or French. And guess what, these students did understand me, cause they made an effort to do so. Of course it's a completly different cattle of fish if you got a native English teacher from Newcastle, Glasgow or Cardiff, same as Sydney, Melbourn or Perth, or even LA, NY or Toronto.

All the Thai students will have difficulties to understand them once they speak in their own dialect as Thai as such is a phonetic language. Key solution here is to teach the students to listen, which is in my books the most difficult task we face here in Thailand.

I've spoken to teachers from Cambodia, Korea, Vietnam and other Asian neighbouring countries which this problem does not exist, as the students go to school there in order to study and not just passing the time, like they do here.

Edited February 25, 2008 by KonKru

[stevemiddie]

Excuse me Mr.Whitevan, I tought English in Holland, Germany and Switzerland, without speaking any Dutch, German or French. And guess what, these students did understand me, cause they made an effort to do so. Of course it's a completly different cattle of fish if you got a native English teacher from Newcastle, Glasgow or Cardiff, same as Sydney, Melbourn or Perth, or even LA, NY or Toronto.

All the Thai students will have difficulties to understand them once they speak in their own dialect as Thai as such is a phonetic language. Key solution here is to teach the students to listen, which is in my books the most difficult task we face here in Thailand.

I've spoken to teachers from Cambodia, Korea, Vietnam and other Asian neighbouring countries which ( where ) this problem does not exist, as the students go to school there in order to study and not just passing the time, like they do here.

I agree about the UK accents, scouse, geordie etc. I,m also concerned about your level of English too.

By the way...........what is a "cattle of fish" ?

PS. I KNOW my apostrophe key doesn,t work.

[wilko]

"Of course it's a completly different cattle of fish if you got a native English teacher from Newcastle, Glasgow or Cardiff, same as Sydney, Melbourn or Perth, or even LA, NY or Toronto.'

You seem to have a unique view on what constitutes the English language........and I think that deserves some elucidation...so after you've explained that and "cattle of fish" perhaps you'd explain your theory of accents....???

and then....can you also explain the meaning of "tought", "cause" "completly"?

Edited February 25, 2008 by wilko

[CosmicSurfer]

"Of course it's a completly different cattle of fish if you got a native English teacher from Newcastle, Glasgow or Cardiff, same as Sydney, Melbourn or Perth, or even LA, NY or Toronto.'

You seem to have a unique view on what constitutes the English language........and I think that deserves some elucidation...so after you've explained that and "cattle of fish" perhaps you'd explain your theory of accents....???

and then....can you also explain the meaning of "tought", "cause" "completly"?

Hmmm... wilko, Don't you think that you and stevemiddie are being just a tad intolerant here, of a person who is trying to make a constructive contribution to an an ongoing discussion... Something that seems to be lacking in your own comments.

BTW.. Your keyboards do have a shift key don't they??? And you are both aware that it is proper English language Usage to Capitalize proper nouns, such as names, even if they are pseudonyms.

Just a thought,

CS

[KonKru]

"Of course it's a completly different cattle of fish if you got a native English teacher from Newcastle, Glasgow or Cardiff, same as Sydney, Melbourn or Perth, or even LA, NY or Toronto.'

You seem to have a unique view on what constitutes the English language........and I think that deserves some elucidation...so after you've explained that and "cattle of fish" perhaps you'd explain your theory of accents....???

and then....can you also explain the meaning of "tought", "cause" "completly"?

taught because completely

Once one stays in the line of duty one does make all the effort to express themself in a proper

manner without spelling mistakes. Where as this place is a playground of one's emotions and

exchange of information. Information not about the English language though but about life as such.

Participants who might have a problem with spelling mistakes would find themselfs much more happy on

educational websites. "Kettle of fish" though you'll find in an English idiom dictionary, most certainly not in an American or Australian one. No harm done not to know about it !

I do apologize for not keeping up my remarks to Pulizer standards, but as no one will give us a penny for it I do admit tHat I couldn't care less.

In plain English : Bugger that mate who gives a monkey anyway!

Edited February 25, 2008 by KonKru

[PeaceBlondie]

STANDARD RULE ON THE TEACHING FORUM: "NO GRAMMAR WARS, NO PUNCTUATION DILLETANTES, NO SPELLING NAZIS." Also, some of us have carpal tunnel syndrome, some of us are drunk or sleeepy.

Did somebody invite me to study Thai? I don't need Thai to survive in the farang ghetto. Lots of average Thais in govt. schools don't need English. We need fewer mass classes of stupid English taught by underqualified teachers, more English taught by good native teachers with proper motivation, and lots of other things.

I'm sleepy. G'night.

[wangsuda]

I'm sorry but I don't think you understand the principle of being taught by a native speaker AND the definition of "fluency" certainly few of my UK teachers were fluent.

speaking is only one aspect of language aquisition and you will find that many non-native teachers are OK in these aspects

teach something you don't know?

Now if you were a good teacher you would know what a ridiculous question that is.

You should realize how ridiculous you sound. A good teacher does not teach subjects s/he doesn't know. I don't teach Thai, physics, and ICT. I do not know enough about those subjects to teach them. I do teach literature and mathematics because I DO know enough about them to teach them well. Additionally, if I need to learn more about those subjects, I can use my previous knowledge to help me find more knowledge. A good teacher should always know more about the subject taught then the students.

Now let's talk about "fluency. According to my dictionary, fluency means:

flu·ent /ˈfluənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[floo-uhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective

1. spoken or written with ease: fluent French.

2. able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily: a fluent speaker; fluent in six languages.

[Origin: 1580–90; < L fluent- (s. of fluéns) flowing, prp. of fluere; see -ent]

—Related forms

flu·en·cy, flu·ent·ness, noun

flu·ent·ly, adverb

Chicago Manual Style (CMS):

fluency. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fluency (accessed: February 25, 2008).

Modern Language Association (MLA):

"fluency." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 25 Feb. 2008. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fluency>.

So yes, I am questioning fluency here. If a teacher is not fluent in a language, then the student learns the language WRONG! It's that simple. All the grammar in the world (and Thais are good grammar teachers) are worthless if you cannot accurately speak the language. Now the UK might not care about foreign language teachers, but in California, teachers who want to teach a foreign language must prove fluency before being allowed to teach that language.

[Loaded]

Why do we keep judging the Thai educational system with our own cultural criteria? Thailand is a society where the veneer is all that matters. So, it doesn't matter what was taught, all that matters is the certificate, graduation ceremony and picture in the front room of PraThep 'awarding' the degree. That's it. Critical thinking and thinking too much (ya kit maak) will lead to conflict so should be avoided, failing students could lead to conflict so should be avoided. Face face face is all that matters. Thais don't care about the past, don't worry about the future like we do, their reality is now - they live in the Present Continuous.

Pratheet Thai translated means freedom (seripap). Very confusing you may think considering the inequalities inherent in Thai society, but what they mean by freedom is harmony, peace, co-operation (kwam ruam meu) and nothing to damage their face, such as 'failure'.

Leave them alone to run their own country the way they want. We're here as guests so we should shut up and adapt.

[stevemiddie]

"Of course it's a completly different cattle of fish if you got a native English teacher from Newcastle, Glasgow or Cardiff, same as Sydney, Melbourn or Perth, or even LA, NY or Toronto.'

You seem to have a unique view on what constitutes the English language........and I think that deserves some elucidation...so after you've explained that and "cattle of fish" perhaps you'd explain your theory of accents....???

and then....can you also explain the meaning of "tought", "cause" "completly"?

BTW.. Your keyboards do have a shift key don't they???

I have a shift key? I didn,t know that.

[CosmicSurfer]

Why do we keep judging the Thai educational system with our own cultural criteria? Thailand is a society where the veneer is all that matters. So, it doesn't matter what was taught, all that matters is the certificate, graduation ceremony and picture in the front room of PraThep 'awarding' the degree. That's it. Critical thinking and thinking too much (ya kit maak) will lead to conflict so should be avoided, failing students could lead to conflict so should be avoided.

Educating the MAJORITY of the population would lead to them supplanting the Minority elites that currently run and rape the country for their own selfish benefits, so it too "Should Be Avoided".

Leave them alone to run their own country the way they want. We're here as guests so we should shut up and adapt.

Actually I don't think of myself as a GUEST.. and I object to that Title when used in reference to me...

I am here of my own choice.. I contribute positively to society, I'm married to a Thai woman, I pay Tax... if it weren't for the paranoid protectionist policies of the Thai government and Immigration, I would be here as a Permanent Resident, as my Wife will be in Canada or the USA (I'm a dual Citizen) when we decide to leave for a more sane and secure life... and where Education for our Children will be meaningful and of an acceptable minimal Standard. You can be sure that my kids will know that Greece is in Europe, not Africa... and the Proper pronunciation of Island is I-land.. Not ICEland... and it's Thai Society.. not Thai Social.

I also object to the inference that because Thais are sheep I must become one too... Cultural heritage is no excuse for negativity and regression in that Culture.. Cultures are living things, that MUST adapt to survive... and I'm tired of all the problems here being written off as just "Thai Culture" and "Thai Style".. B-Sh_t... Adapt.. Change or Die.. which is where Thailand is heading in the long term.

My God.. Thaksin is coming back in 2 Days and PAD is already preparing to Hit the streets.. Hasn't anyone learned Anything ?????????

The problem is that we are here to do a job, not as guests, to help them help themselves.. To Educate.. at their request... And as responsible teachers we want to do the Best we can.. and not blamed when it becomes obvious that this job is in reality a joke, and we will never be successful under current conditions.

Or are you suggesting that we stop being professional, stop taking pride in our work, and refrain from fighting to do our best and the best for our Students????

CS

[Loaded]

you are a guest, I am a guest. If Thais wanted us to be anything else, they would change the visa rules. You're not an immigrant, or a resident - you're a guest. You may not like it but mai pen rai

'Best' is subjective. Your best may be to get them to learn something, a Thai teacher's best may be to get them to pass an exam. What best do you think Thais prefer?

[CosmicSurfer]

you are a guest, I am a guest. If Thais wanted us to be anything else, they would change the visa rules. You're not an immigrant, or a resident - you're a guest. You may not like it but mai pen rai

Well.. as an UNWELCOME educated guest, with a brain that is not too addled too think for myself, ... I will exercise my right to leave in the not too distant future, ... and allow Thailand to continue it's decline into the 3rd world from whence it came...

But as long as I continue to live here and call this my home, (or do you deny my right to say this too), I will also continue to do my duty to be a productive member of society, and to protect my wife and family from the abuses around them.. and as such I will continue to use my Brain to Think, Evaluate and try and Improve the Society around me.. hopefully leaving this place a better place then how I found it.

Any other approach is like that of the proverbial Ostrich... Sticking your head in the ground and claiming that it's "not my problem" is only living in denial and contributing to the problem.. Not constructive but destructive,... not positive but negative,... not right but expedient.

And then we can all say how much we love this quaint and pure country... A timeless experience.. Nice place to visit... But NO.. Never "Live" here.

Even one Mind reached and broadened can be the seed for a renewal.

CS

[PeaceBlondie]

If your latest visa does not say resident or immigrant, you are essentially a guest. Guest lecturer or guest professor, even.

Unless you are given a job directing assistant ministers in the MoE, you will probably not affect Thai policy or society or culture one bit. The most we can probably do is to teach individual students, as best we can, and hope they learn.

We can control our own destiny, rage against the machine, refuse to kiss rear ends....and lose our jobs.

[KonKru]

you are a guest, I am a guest. If Thais wanted us to be anything else, they would change the visa rules. You're not an immigrant, or a resident - you're a guest. You may not like it but mai pen rai

Well.. as an UNWELCOME educated guest, with a brain that is not too addled too think for myself, ... I will exercise my right to leave in the not too distant future, ... and allow Thailand to continue it's decline into the 3rd world from whence it came...

But as long as I continue to live here and call this my home, (or do you deny my right to say this too), I will also continue to do my duty to be a productive member of society, and to protect my wife and family from the abuses around them.. and as such I will continue to use my Brain to Think, Evaluate and try and Improve the Society around me.. hopefully leaving this place a better place then how I found it.

Any other approach is like that of the proverbial Ostrich... Sticking your head in the ground and claiming that it's "not my problem" is only living in denial and contributing to the problem.. Not constructive but destructive,... not positive but negative,... not right but expedient.

And then we can all say how much we love this quaint and pure country... A timeless experience.. Nice place to visit... But NO.. Never "Live" here.

Even one Mind reached and broadened can be the seed for a renewal.

CS

Good on you Cosmic, the only way to deal with the situation here in Thailand. "Take it or leave it !"

No way to achieve any improvment here unless you become a buddy of Mr.Taksin, but who wants to be a crook or kissing rear ends ? As long as I am not forced to do this, I'll stay here for my own private benefit; getting approximately a 5 times higher salary than my Thai colleagues, regarding that they do treat their guests quite well.

In general one once was adviced "If you are in Rome, do as the Romans do!", but this place is anything else than Europe, the States or Ossieland. They even expect us to behave like Farang, as they see us as the stupid ones and who can blame them watching some of our fellow countrymen who seem to have lost their marbles and their brain drop down into their pants.

Better weather, cheaper cost of living and more freedom this is why some of us are here, including myself.

Regarding to the teaching job, some of us try to keep up a certain standard, so we make sure that next year's visa stamp is secured and we can stay on trying our best. Within such an unstable society you'll never know what's next, but so far everything was bearable. Nothing like Zimbawe or Namibia, where a guest will be invited for dinner, being the main course.

Cool it man and hang in there.

Edited February 26, 2008 by KonKru

[Loaded]

you are a guest, I am a guest. If Thais wanted us to be anything else, they would change the visa rules. You're not an immigrant, or a resident - you're a guest. You may not like it but mai pen rai

Well.. as an UNWELCOME educated guest, with a brain that is not too addled too think for myself, ... I will exercise my right to leave in the not too distant future, ... and allow Thailand to continue it's decline into the 3rd world from whence it came...

But as long as I continue to live here and call this my home, (or do you deny my right to say this too), I will also continue to do my duty to be a productive member of society, and to protect my wife and family from the abuses around them.. and as such I will continue to use my Brain to Think, Evaluate and try and Improve the Society around me.. hopefully leaving this place a better place then how I found it.

Any other approach is like that of the proverbial Ostrich... Sticking your head in the ground and claiming that it's "not my problem" is only living in denial and contributing to the problem.. Not constructive but destructive,... not positive but negative,... not right but expedient.

And then we can all say how much we love this quaint and pure country... A timeless experience.. Nice place to visit... But NO.. Never "Live" here.

Even one Mind reached and broadened can be the seed for a renewal.

CS

I believe this board is a very cathartic experience for you.

However, you keep mentioning the 'problem' and I keep saying maybe the 'problem' isn't a problem for Thais but only for you and a few other guests. Let me present an analogy: Palestinians think the West Bank is theirs by right of International law. Israelis think the West Bank is theirs by right of history. Both sides think the other side is wrong and can't believe the other side could be so intransigent. Your case is a little different as on one side you have Thailand, its people, culture, history and on the other side just you and a few foreign guests.

Honestly, Thailand won't miss you (or me) when you (we) leave. We are insignificant in the scheme of things here.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Loaded