People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[samran]

Ratchadamnoen Nok Rd is a pretty standard place for protesters to come in BKK. I remember last year Pro-thaksin TRT'ites were camped out there.

...

This year there has been a couple of anti-privatisation camps set up there, and barely a month goes by without some sort of march along that road, and the inevitable encampment down near the statue in front of suan amporn.

Camped in the middle of the street - for days on end?

Come on Samran, we're not talking about moving demonstrations up and down that street, or ones that temporarily close the street - you're right those happen all the time - they are allowed to and planned in advance with the approval of the authorities.

These guys are building a huge stage in the middle of the street! They're doing that becuase they know if they did in a Sanam Luang, etc, they'd get no publicity and there would be no 'drama' as someone else said above.

If it happened in any western country, it would have been allowed for a day or two, then they would have been told to move on or they would be moved - and anyone resisting that movement would be arrested. Guess what? - that indeed happens all the time.

Tear gas, handcuffs and away they go in the police wagons.

The reason it's not happening here is puzzling - and one can only guess that some powerful hidden hands are supporting these guys and making the Government pause from what would otherwise be the usual course of action in any other country.

From time to time I do contracts for the UN. The way I get home is to walk to the klong boat from Paan Fah bridge, just near temple mount.

I most certainly didn't imagine the week long protest last year (during the rainy season I might add) were TRT'ites were camped out all along the centre footpaths on Ratchadamnoen nok. That is what 100 baht a day gets you and there were are sea of people from Phitsanolouk rd all the way up to temple mount.

Same with the Anti-privatisation mobs. Tents line the road, with placards and campers.

Granted they didn't block the road, and didn't build the stage, but they didn't need to. The flat bed trucks with the loud speakers served the same purpose.....

Oh yeah, and no rabble rousers trying to get them pissed off either...

[jumnien]

Ratchadamnoen Nok Rd is a pretty standard place for protesters to come in BKK. I remember last year Pro-thaksin TRT'ites were camped out there.

...

This year there has been a couple of anti-privatisation camps set up there, and barely a month goes by without some sort of march along that road, and the inevitable encampment down near the statue in front of suan amporn.

Camped in the middle of the street - for days on end?

Come on Samran, we're not talking about moving demonstrations up and down that street, or ones that temporarily close the street - you're right those happen all the time - they are allowed to and planned in advance with the approval of the authorities.

These guys are building a huge stage in the middle of the street! They're doing that becuase they know if they did in a Sanam Luang, etc, they'd get no publicity and there would be no 'drama' as someone else said above.

If it happened in any western country, it would have been allowed for a day or two, then they would have been told to move on or they would be moved - and anyone resisting that movement would be arrested. Guess what? - that indeed happens all the time.

Tear gas, handcuffs and away they go in the police wagons.

The reason it's not happening here is puzzling - and one can only guess that some powerful hidden hands are supporting these guys and making the Government pause from what would otherwise be the usual course of action in any other country.

From time to time I do contracts for the UN. The way I get home is to walk to the klong boat from Paan Fah bridge, just near temple mount.

I most certainly didn't imagine the week long protest last year (during the rainy season I might add) were TRT'ites were camped out all along the centre footpaths on Ratchadamnoen nok. That is what 100 baht a day gets you and there were are sea of people from Phitsanolouk rd all the way up to temple mount.

Same with the Anti-privatisation mobs. Tents line the road, with placards and campers.

Granted they didn't block the road, and didn't build the stage, but they didn't need to. The flat bed trucks with the loud speakers served the same purpose.....

Oh yeah, and no rabble rousers trying to get them pissed off either...

Just the military goons with the same guns that killed so many student protesters in 1992 pointed at them!

[hammered]

Coalition, opposition whips agree to set up committee to consider charter amendments

The coalition and opposition whips agreed Monday to set up a special House committee to study how to improve the Constitution as a way-out for the current political impasse.

Non-MPs including representatives of those who disagree of charter amendments will be invited to participate in the study, the whips announced.

The agreement was reached after Parliament President Chai Chidchob and opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva held a meeting with representatives of whips of the coalition and opposition.

The Nation

Edited to add: Sarcastic like isnt this the first committee the parliament will have set up It is a good thing to see this move. Maybe now we can talk about involving the people in the drafting of changes too.

Edited June 2, 2008 by hammered

[jumnien]

Coalition, opposition whips agree to set up committee to consider charter amendments

The coalition and opposition whips agreed Monday to set up a special House committee to study how to improve the Constitution as a way-out for the current political impasse.

Non-MPs including representatives of those who disagree of charter amendments will be invited to participate in the study, the whips announced.

The agreement was reached after Parliament President Chai Chidchob and opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva held a meeting with representatives of whips of the coalition and opposition.

The Nation

Ah, politics and art of compromise! Something General Chomlong and his media-mogul lapdog know nothing about!

[h90]

You know the difference in what I'm posting (as well as a few other like minded people here) is that I'm NOT pro-Thaksin, pro-PPP, or pro-anything - other than pro-democracy. The people that hate TRT/PPP/Thaksin, on the other hand, are ignoring every rule that I suspect they would otherwise normally support - in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of the PAD.

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

[bulmercke]

[ I see one side that wins popular elections and another side that uses coups and bullcrap les majiste charges. Gee, ya know, I'll lean toward the side that wins elections. ]

I fully agree with you. PAD is just continuing to divide the country and trying to cause another coup. I wonder if these PAD people hold down any serious jobs. I support democracy and free speech but these bored and bitter PAD protesters should move on and stop causing a divide.

The PAD may be only a tiny urban minority, but their tactics have proven very effective at inciting a military coup to overthrow the democratically elected government in the very recent past. I guess they think its worth a try again since they didn't get the result they hoped for at the last elections.

Their behaviour wouldn't be tolerated in any normal western democracy.

Sure wouldn't. As I said before, the only reason they're getting away with this is because they're well-connected. They're like the fat little bully on the playground constantly challenging everyone around him - even though he's a whimp. He gets away with it because everyime someone prepares to deliver him a knuckle sandwich, his big brother shows up with a snear on both faces. Ever wonder why the PAD chose the street in front of Army HQ?

That's no way to talk about Cheney and Bush.

[hammered]

Coalition, opposition whips agree to set up committee to consider charter amendments

The coalition and opposition whips agreed Monday to set up a special House committee to study how to improve the Constitution as a way-out for the current political impasse.

Non-MPs including representatives of those who disagree of charter amendments will be invited to participate in the study, the whips announced.

The agreement was reached after Parliament President Chai Chidchob and opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva held a meeting with representatives of whips of the coalition and opposition.

The Nation

Ah, politics and art of compromise! Something General Chomlong and his media-mogul lapdog know nothing about!

If a compromise can be found in parlaiment on this contentious issue it will be a big step forward for Thai democracy. It will involve give and take on all sides though and hopefully invovle consultation with the people beyond just a yes or no. Many things obviously need to be changed in the current constitution but there are also a few nice bits pertaining to the rights of people which get overlooked imho.

[samran]

Just the military goons with the same guns that killed so many student protesters in 1992 pointed at them!

No, not them.

The other ones, who took political power for a year to break a deadlock, and then a year later (as promised) handed back power to the exact ones they took it away from.

[jumnien]

Just the military goons with the same guns that killed so many student protesters in 1992 pointed at them!

No, not them.

The other ones, who took political power for a year to break a deadlock, and then a year later (as promised) handed back power to the exact ones they took it away from.

Well, that clears that up! Cheers!

[samran]

Just the military goons with the same guns that killed so many student protesters in 1992 pointed at them!

No, not them.

The other ones, who took political power for a year to break a deadlock, and then a year later (as promised) handed back power to the exact ones they took it away from.

Well, that clears that up! Cheers!

very glad I can be of service......

[younghusband]

You know the difference in what I'm posting (as well as a few other like minded people here) is that I'm NOT pro-Thaksin, pro-PPP, or pro-anything - other than pro-democracy. The people that hate TRT/PPP/Thaksin, on the other hand, are ignoring every rule that I suspect they would otherwise normally support - in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of the PAD.

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

How many times do I need to tell you that your simple repetition of a lie does not make it true.Nobody believes - not even the bitterest opponents of Thaksin and this government -that the PPP and allies did not win the election.

Instead of repeating the lie like a demented child just find and post one credible international source that supports your thesis.

[hammered]

It is interesting that the compromise committee was set up at a meeting of Abhisit the opposition leader and Chai Chidchob the speaker and parliamentary leader of the most hardline of the PPP factions. Where was the PM? Doesnt he get to have a say on government policy anymore?

Of course that the arrangement was made between those with control of large blocks of votes may mean that the deal has a better chance of working.

[jumnien]

It is interesting that the compromise committee was set up at a meeting of Abhisit the opposition leader and Chai Chidchob the speaker and parliamentary leader of the most hardline of the PPP factions. Where was the PM? Doesnt he get to have a say on government policy anymore?

Of course that the arrangement was made between those with control of large blocks of votes may mean that the deal has a better chance of working.

Samak got his minions to stick a sock in Sondhi's mouth! Thank god, maybe we can have a week's peace!

[clausewitz]

You know the difference in what I'm posting (as well as a few other like minded people here) is that I'm NOT pro-Thaksin, pro-PPP, or pro-anything - other than pro-democracy. The people that hate TRT/PPP/Thaksin, on the other hand, are ignoring every rule that I suspect they would otherwise normally support - in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of the PAD.

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

Article 309 includes a wide-reaching amnesty and approval for the main participants in the 2006 coup.

Obviously this is crucial to Thailand's democracy and explains why PAD - whose actions may appear to be those of left-wing nuts- must stage its protests against any move to change the constituition.

I say protect article 309 at any price. That is the cost of democracy! Join PAD now! And please remember that PPP never had any votes as the election was rigged.

[jumnien]

Is srirachajohn on vacation. I miss his valuable insights!

[Samuian]

......edit......

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

How many times do I need to tell you that your simple repetition of a lie does not make it true.Nobody believes - not even the bitterest opponents of Thaksin and this government -that the PPP and allies did not win the election.

Instead of repeating the lie like a demented child just find and post one credible international source that supports your thesis.

read the highlighted section in the quote!

this says it all, it's what it is all about!

They DID cheat themselves with a majority into Parlament, otherwise why would some in their ranks be accused of electoral fraud?

And Samaks blunder from Saturday, to use force, may turn against him - guess who is in the starting block?

"Rumours generated from the PPP mentioned Thaksin's brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat, the deputy prime minister and education minister, as a possible Samak successor."

depending on any out come there is a chosen alternative:

"More outrageous whisperings had coalition allies ganging up with some PPP factions to prop up Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva as a new prime minister."

Source:

[hammered]

You know the difference in what I'm posting (as well as a few other like minded people here) is that I'm NOT pro-Thaksin, pro-PPP, or pro-anything - other than pro-democracy. The people that hate TRT/PPP/Thaksin, on the other hand, are ignoring every rule that I suspect they would otherwise normally support - in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of the PAD.

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

Article 309 includes a wide-reaching amnesty and approval for the main participants in the 2006 coup.

Obviously this is crucial to Thailand's democracy and explains why PAD - whose actions may appear to be those of left-wing nuts- must stage its protests against any move to change the constituition.

I say protect article 309 at any price. That is the cost of democracy! Join PAD now! And please remember that PPP never had any votes as the election was rigged.

The old A-Times article has a point that some argue that even if the constitution is changed the constitutional court may rule that it cannot be retroactive hence the court cases will continue. Point here being that even if the whole thing gets changed it is going to end up in court for interpretation. Then if we really want to get confused, what happens if the parlaiment changes the whole constitution and then a whole load of the parliamentarians are given 5-year bans or something. Is the passage of a new constitution still then valid? Mmmmmm I think compromise is preferable to any of these somewhat daunting ideas.

[ando]

Have a read of Shawn Crispin's A-Times piece. According to his analysis there almost certainly wont be a coup and that the military have other ideas on how this will all play out to their advantage. It is an interesting analysis by someone who may not always be right but certainly has his connections and an understnding of how things work. The PAD and government clashes may just be a bit of a sideshow if what he posits is accurate. The longetivity of the PAD rally really depends on how much attention the government gives to them, which of course creates media attention. A skilled and well disciplined government would pay little attention. It remains to be seen if this government has learned from its mistakes so far in handling a demonstration. It is difficult for a demonstration anywhere in the world to be maintained without drama, and it takes two sides for drama. No drama equals no media story equals no excitement equals falling numbers. Of course the government will also have to make sure that some of its more shall we say aggresive supporters also do not try to organise attack gangs, which of course immediately will create another round of (sympathetic) media coverage.

Agree that protests need "drama" to draw in media attention.

But they also need a "cause " to fight for if they are going to draw in supporters. A protest without popular a cause will fizzle out pretty quickly.

PAD really doesn't have a popular cause anymore. They are an organization with a protest going on but switching causes on a daily basis.

The Pad's latest cause, is the removal of the democratically elected government. Very few people want to see that, even the military at the moment. Its just not the sort of thing that gets people in Bangkok stirred up enough to miss a day at work and go out and protest. Especially when they know what a mess the military made of things last time round. PAD is a protest without a popular agenda at the moment. Why would anyone but the most ardent supporters bother to support PAD at the moment? If they were protesting about the price of fuel or the price of rice they might have a chance of attracting a reasonable response. But just campaigning on purely political grounds and demanding a change of government I don't think is striking much of a chord with anybody at the moment. Things may change in the near future , but that's the way I see it at the moment.

[hammered]

......edit......

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

How many times do I need to tell you that your simple repetition of a lie does not make it true.Nobody believes - not even the bitterest opponents of Thaksin and this government -that the PPP and allies did not win the election.

Instead of repeating the lie like a demented child just find and post one credible international source that supports your thesis.

read the highlighted section in the quote!

this says it all, it's what it is all about!

They DID cheat themselves with a majority into Parlament, otherwise why would some in their ranks be accused of electoral fraud?

And Samaks blunder from Saturday, to use force, may turn against him - guess who is in the starting block?

"Rumours generated from the PPP mentioned Thaksin's brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat, the deputy prime minister and education minister, as a possible Samak successor."

depending on any out come there is a chosen alternative:

"More outrageous whisperings had coalition allies ganging up with some PPP factions to prop up Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva as a new prime minister."

Source:

If, and it is a big if, Samak has outlived his usefullness to the man in the background, then I am sure we will see change. It would also serve to give the government a new lease of life and also undercut the PAD who oddly enough may not want who they get: Mr. Thaksin's brother-in-law turns victory into defeat making the Samak out tactic look like a blunder. Abhisit (sounds bizarre but anything is possible) and they get someone they cant fight and yet they'll be scared that a deal has been done.

Interesting times.

[Pierrot]

All of you using this forum ... you are being censored right now... TVisa ought to tell you the truth... if they don't... they are pandering to the un democratic government in power in Thailand right now. Thai Visa is covering it's own commercial ass ... take a stance people...

What are you talking about ? I can see posts from completely opposite sides in this thread.

Actually, you can post your message because there is no censor thanks to this very democratic government.

You want more ? Read the warnings on TV dated from the beginning of the coup. Do we have the same now? Absolutely no, so pls this b***s***t about censor and undemocratic government needs to stop.

Really? You obviously haven't been invited to Jakaprop's office like some of my journalist friends have and asked in a 'friendly' mannaer to lay out your pro-Thaksin credentials before you can continue to host your TV show/do news reports.

Original post was about TV, Thai Visa, not TV show.

But, honnestly, we have enough trouble with these goons in the streets, who want to see them again on TV (show).

[samran]

All of you using this forum ... you are being censored right now... TVisa ought to tell you the truth... if they don't... they are pandering to the un democratic government in power in Thailand right now. Thai Visa is covering it's own commercial ass ... take a stance people...

What are you talking about ? I can see posts from completely opposite sides in this thread.

Actually, you can post your message because there is no censor thanks to this very democratic government.

You want more ? Read the warnings on TV dated from the beginning of the coup. Do we have the same now? Absolutely no, so pls this b***s***t about censor and undemocratic government needs to stop.

Really? You obviously haven't been invited to Jakaprop's office like some of my journalist friends have and asked in a 'friendly' mannaer to lay out your pro-Thaksin credentials before you can continue to host your TV show/do news reports.

Original post was about TV, Thai Visa, not TV show.

But, honnestly, we have enough trouble with these goons in the streets, who want to see them again on TV (show).

so what you are saying is free speech if you love TRT, but no free speech if you don't like TRT?

If we are talking about television, then it should be my right to watch, or switch off what I don't want to watch, and not having a (now former) minister and Thaksin lacky calling journalists into his offices and politely - mafia like - threatening them with their careers and livelihoods if they didn't cheer loudly enough for Thaksin.

As for Thai visa, as a moderator, so long as you keep within forum rules, you can say what you like...

[h90]

You know the difference in what I'm posting (as well as a few other like minded people here) is that I'm NOT pro-Thaksin, pro-PPP, or pro-anything - other than pro-democracy. The people that hate TRT/PPP/Thaksin, on the other hand, are ignoring every rule that I suspect they would otherwise normally support - in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of the PAD.

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

How many times do I need to tell you that your simple repetition of a lie does not make it true.Nobody believes - not even the bitterest opponents of Thaksin and this government -that the PPP and allies did not win the election.

Instead of repeating the lie like a demented child just find and post one credible international source that supports your thesis.

I don't know what country you are from, but most countries I know put cheater in jail and not in parliament. It is by no means acceptable that such people have any public job. About the international sources you got already a nice answer from someone else.

How do you eplain tolerance to fraud? Cheating...never mind???

[seagull]

Samak summons army chief, police chief, Council of State secretary-general

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej Monday summoned the army chief, the national police chief and the secretary-general of the Office of the Council of State to an meeting at Government House.

Army chief Gen Anupong Paochinda, Police chief Pol Gen Phatcharawat Wongsuwan and Council of State secretary-general Pornthip Jala came to meet Samak at 3 pm.

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30074585

What's up Doc ?

[Old Man River]

You know the difference in what I'm posting (as well as a few other like minded people here) is that I'm NOT pro-Thaksin, pro-PPP, or pro-anything - other than pro-democracy. The people that hate TRT/PPP/Thaksin, on the other hand, are ignoring every rule that I suspect they would otherwise normally support - in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of the PAD.

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

How many times do I need to tell you that your simple repetition of a lie does not make it true.Nobody believes - not even the bitterest opponents of Thaksin and this government -that the PPP and allies did not win the election.

Instead of repeating the lie like a demented child just find and post one credible international source that supports your thesis.

I don't know what country you are from, but most countries I know put cheater in jail and not in parliament. It is by no means acceptable that such people have any public job. About the international sources you got already a nice answer from someone else.

How do you eplain tolerance to fraud? Cheating...never mind???

I must be going blind. I can't find this international source you are referring to. Nobody I know doesn't admit that if there was an election tomorrow that the PPP would again win a majority, whether facilitating fees were paid or not. I admit this is sad, but it is the case and can't be denied.

[younghusband]

You know the difference in what I'm posting (as well as a few other like minded people here) is that I'm NOT pro-Thaksin, pro-PPP, or pro-anything - other than pro-democracy. The people that hate TRT/PPP/Thaksin, on the other hand, are ignoring every rule that I suspect they would otherwise normally support - in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of the PAD.

PPP won the election. Now please would both you and the PAD get over it.

They bought their election......how many times I need to tell that.....and that is the reason why the need to change the constitution, else they would get dissolved.....

How many times do I need to tell you that your simple repetition of a lie does not make it true.Nobody believes - not even the bitterest opponents of Thaksin and this government -that the PPP and allies did not win the election.

Instead of repeating the lie like a demented child just find and post one credible international source that supports your thesis.

I don't know what country you are from, but most countries I know put cheater in jail and not in parliament. It is by no means acceptable that such people have any public job. About the international sources you got already a nice answer from someone else.

How do you eplain tolerance to fraud? Cheating...never mind???

As I thought you are unable to provide any credible international source to justify your position. As previously mentioned even political opponents of this government accept, notwithstanding irregularities,it has a popular mandate.Having said that it's the duty of the opposition and civil society to oppose and demonstrate if necessary, especially given the weaknesses of the Samak administration.But to deny that the PPP and its coalition partners didnt have the right to form an administration is a lie.

[A_Traveller]

At the risk of repeating myself, the problem with the 'observers' point is that international observers consisted of 37 people working in pairs (?) {Guess 1 had a mirror} from ANFREL {Asian Network for Free Elections}, whilst domestic monitoring was dramatically curtailed owing to a, shall we say curious, argument between the EC and P-Net.

I'll be realistic here and say that the result probably reflected the will of the people, {in my view the Democrat Party, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by a phenomenally badly managed campaign} but it is specious to suggest that the process was somehow certified by an independent, and implied foreign, presence. The report itself is not good reading, and given the number of observers and the inevitably limited programme undertaken by them, is highly suggestive of widespread 'questionable activity'.

Regards

LINK to ANFREL report in PDF format

[Ijustwannateach]

I think it's well-known to those who have connections in the countryside here that people are 'told' by local 'influential types' (village headman, etc.) whom to vote for in exchange for 'considerations,' and though I suppose it's possible to opt out it certainly wouldn't be comfortable to do so in village culture. In that sense, at least, Thailand is far from a democracy no matter who 'wins'- though so are most of the countries which claim to be democracies.

[jaidam]

Great timing from Noppadol today. Sounds like it is a done deal. This quote will not please the PAD.

"Thaksin has hundreds of millions of pounds worth of assets frozen as he awaits trial on corruption charges later this year.

But his former lawyer Noppadom Pattama, who is now Thailand's foreign minister, told BBC Sport that he expected these assets to be unfrozen in the near future. "

BBC

[younghusband]

I think it's well-known to those who have connections in the countryside here that people are 'told' by local 'influential types' (village headman, etc.) whom to vote for in exchange for 'considerations,' and though I suppose it's possible to opt out it certainly wouldn't be comfortable to do so in village culture. In that sense, at least, Thailand is far from a democracy no matter who 'wins'- though so are most of the countries which claim to be democracies.

That if I may say so is an increasingly outdated view though still quite widely held but the reality is much more complicated.For a more sophisticated discussion than is likely to be held on this forum, there are some first class alternatives such as Bangkok Pundit.

[A_Traveller]

^ You may say it, but as you care to lecture others, saying something, even repeatatively does not make it true. Indeed even ANFREL in its carefully measured diplomatic language commented upon this actuality during the 2007 election process.

Regards