Crop Questions

[kolohe]

I have the opportunity to buy just under 50 rai just South of Udon Thani and I'm in the process of doing my homework before jumping in on this. Currently the land has sugar cane on it.

Any advice or help on determining what crops would be best would be greatly appreciated. I have seen a lot of talk about Cassava which sounds intriguing, but I'm not sure if I'm best off sticking with the sugar cane or going to some other crop. I have no idea what kinda returns you can get off of sugar cane.

I'm in the information collection stage so throw out anything you got.

Thanks,

K

[turnpike]

kolohe,

scroll down a bit on this page, you'll see a thread about "farming self suffiency". a ton of good info there.

also helps to search this forum, if you do a little legwork here first, post questions with a little more info about your own situation, you will get a more positive feedback.

please, no offense, but i've seen questions like yours countless times in the farming section. i don't post much, mostly just lurk, but i can sense that a lot of people here get tired of answering the same question over and over.

you wrote: "I'm in the information collection stage so throw out anything you got"

better if you: "find out everything you can" first. it doesn't take long to get a decent grasp of the pros and cons.

again, no offense meant, just a little constructive criticism. good luck with the land if you buy it.

[kolohe]

kolohe,

scroll down a bit on this page, you'll see a thread about "farming self suffiency". a ton of good info there.

also helps to search this forum, if you do a little legwork here first, post questions with a little more info about your own situation, you will get a more positive feedback.

please, no offense, but i've seen questions like yours countless times in the farming section. i don't post much, mostly just lurk, but i can sense that a lot of people here get tired of answering the same question over and over.

you wrote: "I'm in the information collection stage so throw out anything you got"

better if you: "find out everything you can" first. it doesn't take long to get a decent grasp of the pros and cons.

again, no offense meant, just a little constructive criticism. good luck with the land if you buy it.

Turnpike,

I did do legwork (searching the forums) and have read that "farming self sufficiency" thread, I even have it bookmarked (among others) for reference. I guess I should have posted that part, I didn't realize people would make assumptions like that.

Also, the "information collection stage" is me trying to find out as much as I can. I haven't been able to find any information that applies to my situation, which is mainly about whether to keep the sugar cane crop going or not. Thats why I posted in the first place. I read the part about soil samples, etc.

No offense but I thought this forum was for people to ask questions and discuss things related to farming. If someone is tired of helping people, then by all means they should just ignore the post. I'm not trying to solicit information from people that are unwilling to help. If someone has experience or knowledge with sugar cane and Cassava, I'd love to pick their brain.

Thanks for your input,

K

[kolohe]

I should also add that I read the thread that mentions the new technique for making cassava produce higher yields. Does anyone have specific information on how to cut the stalk properly? This is something I would like to try if I find that its reasonable to convert from an active sugar cane crop to a cassava crop.

Thanks,

K

[Maizefarmer]

kolohe,

scroll down a bit on this page, you'll see a thread about "farming self suffiency". a ton of good info there.

also helps to search this forum, if you do a little legwork here first, post questions with a little more info about your own situation, you will get a more positive feedback.

please, no offense, but i've seen questions like yours countless times in the farming section. i don't post much, mostly just lurk, but i can sense that a lot of people here get tired of answering the same question over and over.

you wrote: "I'm in the information collection stage so throw out anything you got"

better if you: "find out everything you can" first. it doesn't take long to get a decent grasp of the pros and cons.

again, no offense meant, just a little constructive criticism. good luck with the land if you buy it.

Kolohe - I think perhaps you did not realise just what answering your question invloved. Firstly, the economics of purchasing 50rai to grow cassava usualy doesn't make sense - I don't know many Thai's who would go near 50rai (meaning: buy) for growing cassava unless it was so cheap that he didn't need to worry about the money being invested. Almost all large area crop growers on that scale (and by cassva growing scales 50 rai is small - for someone who owns the land), are renting from families who have held very large tracts of land for generations and who earn their income by renting land to farmers.

So the first thing is, as I have asked below, is what is the situation with the land - when yo say you are purchasing it, what titleship are you getting?

Now come a whole bunch of other questions:

1) Have you established the soil type - in particular what is your soil ph?

2) Irrigation - have you considered irrigation, is the water avalible to irrigate? (however you go about it setting yourself up to irrigate 50rai is going to cost millions (baht).

3) Do you have some idea what labour will cost you and have established how man guys can plant how much cassava p/day?

4) Fertilser - have you worked out what fertiliser will be required - how much to apply and when to apply it?

5) Do you know what seed stock will cost - and what the plant spacings and row spacings will be?

6) Which varities of cassava are cultivated in your area?

7) What do you know about this lands crop history - are you sure you are not buying land that hasbeing exhuasted - cassava exhausts land very quckly - what if you find out there have being half a dozen successive poor cassava harvests - now you are stuck with land that is no good for cassava!

8) How do you detrmine when to harvest cassava - cassva can be harvested in the first season,, or it can be left till the folowing season in the hope that you'll get more root structure - is that what you want i.e. root structure at the expense of foilage (depending on the final planned use/market)

9)How do you recognise lignification in the roots - and what do you do when lignification occurs between seasons? - you have to get it out the gorund, market or no market.

Determing which crops are best is not a simply a question of which will grow, but rather a whole bunch of factors are needed to be understood. This is not some market garden you are planting -- this is 50 rai of land, a fair size by any standard. I remember the first year I was in Thailand I planted something like 50rai - I was very scared - and this was nothing more complicated than grass! I must have spent 6 months driving around from one farmer to another farmer, from one ag institutue to another - before I came anywhere near to being close to understanding what was involved.

The actual physical side of it was easily comprehended - it was the economics of it that I had to get my head around, and it scares me when people say they have an opputunity to plant 50 rai of this or 50 rai of that (Thais more so than ex-pats - because worst case scenario is the ex-pat turns his back and walks away - not so easy for Thai's). But to have 50rai in mind for a crop without any of the above information (which only you can answer in its proper costings context) - is scary.

Answers to all the above, and a dozen other basic questions will be needed before you can make a descion as to what crop to grow - and answering the above to the detail that will be required before you can make a desicion, will take me (or anyone else) something like 10 - 12 pages Farming in Thailand formatt pages!

PS - do you know why the land is being sold?

To answer your question about cassava yields - yes, you've heard about larger yields being achieved over the last few years. That is correct, and coupled with the recent rise in cassava prices,farmers have done well the last season or 2, and can expect do to well for the next couple seasons at least - but after that, who knows. But your most important consideration is not yield. Your most important considerations when selecting seed stock are variety and inoculation.

Assuming you have selected the correct seed stock and it has being inoculated, the question then is - how long should it be?

Well, depending on the variety it can be anything from 4" - 8" and it can be planted anything from 3" - 5" (stem pushed nto the ground), or it can be laid flat in the ground just below the surface, or it can be tilted - again all this depends on the variety you are planting, the soild conditions and the expected rainfall.

..... see where this is going - I'm jumping around now from one subject to another as all the issues start going through my mind - it very quickly gets very complicated....

By all means come back with a specific question and I am sure the guys on th forum who have experiance growing cassava will jump at the oppurtunity to help (that is what the forum is about) - but the boad question you have asked about cassava is impossible to answer with any meaning.

Even with all the above answers, the best advise I could give you would be - start small. Start off with about 5rai - 10rai, to experiance what is involved, to get a feel for the work and the costings - before throwing your hand in on 50rai. 50rai is a big committment to crop growing, never mind a land purchase, and if it goes pearshaped it'll be an unpleasent experiance.

All the best

[kolohe]

Maizefarmer,

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. Let me start by answering some of your questions. First, the land is titled with a Chanote. It's being sold off because the current owners owe money on it with the bank and cant pay it back. The land is in the village of the wife's relatives which is also near her village. Her relatives will be the ones working the land. It's being sold for <20,000ba/rai.

I am currently working on some of the other things you mentioned like getting soil samples and figuring out the irrigation situation, etc. Sugar cane and cassava are grown in the area, at the moment I don't know what kind of cassava is being grown there yet. The land's crop history is that its been used for sugar cane and it currently has sugar cane on it. Which what brought me to my main question. I don't know if its even worth it or not to consider another crop like cassava or not. Some of those other questions it seems to me is putting the cart in front of the horse. If I can't possibly get a better yield or if its too much of a pain in the arse to convert from a sugar cane field to a cassava or other crop then I can save myself a bunch of time researching cassava. If cassava is typically a better crop than sugar cane, or can be..then I have motivation to start digging deeper.

I'm curious, you said that 50 rai for cassava is small. What would you consider sufficient sized land to grow cassava or sugar cane? What is good for land that is 50 rai?

Thanks again for your reply, you've brought some good questions that are to be considered.

K

[turnpike]

No offense but I thought this forum was for people to ask questions and discuss things related to farming

.

no offense meant and no offense taken. you're onto a good thing in this forum, i was just trying to help you get the most out of it.

good luck with the land,

tp

[Maizefarmer]

Maizefarmer,

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. Let me start by answering some of your questions. First, the land is titled with a Chanote. It's being sold off because the current owners owe money on it with the bank and cant pay it back. The land is in the village of the wife's relatives which is also near her village. Her relatives will be the ones working the land. It's being sold for <20,000ba/rai.

I am currently working on some of the other things you mentioned like getting soil samples and figuring out the irrigation situation, etc. Sugar cane and cassava are grown in the area, at the moment I don't know what kind of cassava is being grown there yet. The land's crop history is that its been used for sugar cane and it currently has sugar cane on it. Which what brought me to my main question. I don't know if its even worth it or not to consider another crop like cassava or not. Some of those other questions it seems to me is putting the cart in front of the horse. If I can't possibly get a better yield or if its too much of a pain in the arse to convert from a sugar cane field to a cassava or other crop then I can save myself a bunch of time researching cassava. If cassava is typically a better crop than sugar cane, or can be..then I have motivation to start digging deeper.

I'm curious, you said that 50 rai for cassava is small. What would you consider sufficient sized land to grow cassava or sugar cane? What is good for land that is 50 rai?

Thanks again for your reply, you've brought some good questions that are to be considered.

K

In the context of land owning it is small - because most Thai's growing 50rai will not be the land owners - they will be renting that land - which means - yes, you can make a profit off 50rai and good one at that if you get things under control - but you won't get rich off it, or for that matter any other crop growen on 50rai.

My comprehension of cassava crop values is only in terms of using it as a feedstock for cattle - and then really, the consideration is that it is roughly 1/3cheaper for me to grow it than it is to buy it - so I am not the person to ask about its values, especially as I do not grow only for root stock but for freash foilage as well - which means irrigation (irrigating cassva encourages leaf growth more than root growth - the root growing as a store for the plant in dry wheather, which it won't do so vigerously if it is irrigated).

[guyshown]

This is just a quick ramble and maybe words on deaf ears--- My wife gave me some sound sound advice when we first got married.. She knowing that i coming from a farming background(mainly wheat on a 10,942 acres non irrigated North Dakota)... had interest and my heart is in farming.....explained to me that if i want to farm for profit in the land of smiles

1. I must be there and not trust upon someone else- her theory on this was sound business advice would you invest in a company and then entrust someone else to run the company when you are thousand of miles away... no i dont think so

2. SHe followed that commnet with .. now if you want to farm to give my family a source of income that's differnt keeping in mind that any money spend i never count on seeing again.

My family farm in ND has survived because of a simple few things.

1. We own the land

2. we have never used it for credit

3. we have always bought all machinery and items with cash and not credit

4. hours and hours of hard, hard work ....worry.... joy.... frustration

5. we have only stuck with what we know how to farm

6. We have never jumped on the trendy things to farm

It is not easy to make a living farming.... it can be done but i would never plan on getting super rich. that is if you judge wealth on your bank account- i feel my family is extrmely wealthy. bUt i dont judge wealth on my bank account.

Ok i thought that i would share my opinions, just because i see on this forum the same cycle over and over-- "My thai wife or GF family has this chance to buy land at such and such a prise and they say we can make so much money farming this or that"

Im all about helping people any body who has ever spent more than 2 minutes with me will agree with me about helping people just keep in mind the words of wisdom from my wife in the process of helping.

best wishes

guyshown

[stoneman]

This is just a quick ramble and maybe words on deaf ears--- My wife gave me some sound sound advice when we first got married.. She knowing that i coming from a farming background(mainly wheat on a 10,942 acres non irrigated North Dakota).

At the current price of $12 a bushel, I hope most of the 10,000 acres is in wheat...

Stoneman

[guyshown]

This is just a quick ramble and maybe words on deaf ears--- My wife gave me some sound sound advice when we first got married.. She knowing that i coming from a farming background(mainly wheat on a 10,942 acres non irrigated North Dakota).

At the current price of $12 a bushel, I hope most of the 10,000 acres is in wheat...

Stoneman

about 5,000 is in wheat... the 12$ a bushel sounds nice untill you add the price of diesel fetilizer etc etc..

[stoneman]

This is just a quick ramble and maybe words on deaf ears--- My wife gave me some sound sound advice when we first got married.. She knowing that i coming from a farming background(mainly wheat on a 10,942 acres non irrigated North Dakota).

At the current price of $12 a bushel, I hope most of the 10,000 acres is in wheat...

Stoneman

about 5,000 is in wheat... the 12$ a bushel sounds nice untill you add the price of diesel fetilizer etc etc..

Still nets out better than the $2 - $3 a bushel they used to get when I worked the wheat harvest from Okla to N Dakota with a custom cutting crew...

Stoneman

[Maizefarmer]

Wise words guyshown - wise words!

.... yer, U$D12 p/b sounds great against 10K acres - untill you factor in diesel, fertilser, combine etc, etc ...... all adds up and were it not for the fact that subsidies exist many a farmer would go bust despite "good" gate prices.

[guyshown]

Thanks Maizefarmer --- I have a tendancy to "ramble on " and once in a blue moon say something that makes since- this one makes since because it's my wifes words not mine HEHE.

Stoneman- abouts when we you working the combine crews ? FYI our place is just south of the border on the hills inthe area of Bowbells-- the 2-3 dollars a bushel is bad memories

[kolohe]

Thanks for the replies. Let me add that no one has made any promises to me about getting rich or whatnot and I have no crazy ideas in my head about getting rich off of 50 rai. The main point of the land, which shouldn't matter here, is to help provide some income to some of her family. We could also be getting some money out of it, but in no way has it been implied that it would be a windfall.

Indeed there is an abundance of accounts and warnings about things such as wives/GFs "tricking" their spouses into farming under the impression they are going to get rich, husbands that never see their money again, and other things related to farming the falang for cash. With so much pigeon-holing it could make one think that there is not much integrity out there. The more I see these stories, the luckier I feel. My wife and her family (with the exception of one aunt who as a result is really not a part of the family anymore) has a sense of integrity that would rival that of any westerner's concept of integrity. Our other projects have done well and we haven't been ripped off yet even though the opportunity has been there. Then again I am definitely not the "ki niaw falang", I am happy to share the returns to help out the family and I participate in the family to include busting my arse harvesting rice with everyone.

With the stereotypes out of the way, does anyone have any idea what range of baht per rai sugar cane is getting in the northeast? I know it depends on a lot of variables, thats why I'm asking for a ballpark range. I'm just trying to get an idea not write a contract.

K

[stoneman]

Thanks Maizefarmer --- I have a tendancy to "ramble on " and once in a blue moon say something that makes since- this one makes since because it's my wifes words not mine HEHE.

Stoneman- abouts when we you working the combine crews ? FYI our place is just south of the border on the hills inthe area of Bowbells-- the 2-3 dollars a bushel is bad memories

Worked the wheat harvest in 1958 - 59 - 60 - 61 - 62... Lots of hard work but a lot of good memories

Stoneman

[Khonwan]

...best off sticking with the sugar cane or going to some other crop. I have no idea what kinda returns you can get off of sugar cane.

K

Hi kolohe

You have already read a fair deal about cassava on this forum (ranging from the complicated explanations to the much simpler reality) but I note that you indicate your land is already being cropped with sugar cane. My own land is not suited to sugar cane so I can offer no specific advice in comparing the two crops. Have you asked whomever has been growing sugar cane on your land anything about the returns? Have you asked any of your neighbours who are currently growing sugar cane?

As much as members of TV like, in general, to slag off their Thai neighbours, they do actually have a wealth of information. This forum should form only part of your research. Since you know nothing of the actual real-life realities of members experiences, you shouldn't necessarily give our views any more weight than the opinions of your Thai farmer neighbours. A Thai neighbour relying on farming who shows signs of success warrants a respectful hearing.

Additionally...I'm very confident that if I were to Google, I could find figures for the Thai national/regional yields and prices for sugar cane (just as I can do for cassava). So, why not do both of these things and report back to us your analysis.

Rgds

Khonwan

[Maizefarmer]

Inter-cropping maize and cassava is common in Thailand - as these 2 crops grow together very well.

Sugar cane earnings per rai vary HUGELY - but use the following as ball part figures:

1) between Baht 390 - 630 p/ton

2) between 6 - 9.5ton per rai.

So just why is there such a huge variation?

Its a combination of factors but primarily 2:

a) variety planted - which accounts for different weights per rai harvested

duration planted for - some vrieties mature in as little as 9 - 11 months, whereas others can take 18 - 21months

So - one farmer may earn Baht X over say 12 months and another farmer earns Baht X over 18 months - assuming prices per tonn are the same the they have both harvested the same amount per rai for the same area of rai. In actual fact although he 2nd farmer has earned the same amount, in real tersm terms his earnings will will work out about 50% less when looked at over time.

In short Kolohe, there is big variation in cane earnings.

heres another complication - it is in fact the biggest complciation facing Thai cane farmers: its logistics. The transportation of harvested cane makes and breaks farmers every year. i don;t want to run thorugh it again, but if you search the sugare cane threads, I wrote som notes up in 2006 somewtime about the logistics problems facing Thai cane farmers. It is even worse now than it was 2 years ago.

[kolohe]

Kohnwan,

I'm sorry, I did not realize I was giving the impression I wasnt googleing, talking to local Thais and using other resources. You can be sure that I am also doing that as well. I didn't realize it was such a big deal to try to use this forum as an additional source of information.

Maizefarmer,

Thank you for the help and information, I really appreciate it. I read that post you wrote earlier about the sugar cane logistics when I was searching the forums. The situation with the trucking sounded bad enough before, it gives you something to think about knowing that its even worse now!

[Maizefarmer]

To add my 2 cents worth regards Kohnwans comments earlier on this thread - proberbly the most relivant and important input you can have regarding crop growing in your area is to speak to as many farmers around you as possible. Unlike internet articals which seldom cover a crop growing subject in relation to the circumstances you will be faced with. farmers around will have a good understanding of detail.

That said, Thai farmers can be nortoriously inefficient and unknowledgeable when it comes to analysing the financial side of farming, so take note of what they have to say - and in my experiance I have yet to meet a Thai farmer who is reluctant to share his knowledge with an ex-pat - but don;t act on it without being analytical about it and thinking it through carefully.

[peterjohn]

I dont sound critical but why dont you look at farming 5 rai and teach your family to grow quality produce and look at a export market small crops are hard work but the returns are great

plus you dont wait 12months for a return

there are some great markets around

I used to earn one million dollars of 10 acres

and export to new zealand /singapore

if you want to know more will inform you further

[Issangeorge]

I dont sound critical but why dont you look at farming 5 rai and teach your family to grow quality produce and look at a export market small crops are hard work but the returns are great

plus you dont wait 12months for a return

there are some great markets around

I used to earn one million dollars of 10 acres

and export to new zealand /singapore

if you want to know more will inform you further

That works out to 1.4 million baht a rai. Yes i think everyone reading this thread would like to learn more. Issangeorge

[ozzydom]

I dont sound critical but why dont you look at farming 5 rai and teach your family to grow quality produce and look at a export market small crops are hard work but the returns are great

plus you dont wait 12months for a return

there are some great markets around

I used to earn one million dollars of 10 acres

and export to new zealand /singapore

if you want to know more will inform you further

That works out to 1.4 million baht a rai. Yes i think everyone reading this thread would like to learn more. Issangeorge

I cant wait for the next instalment,the tractor is all warmed up ready to start ploughing.

[chownah]

I think if you planted teak trees and then waited about a hunderd years you could probably get 1.4 million baht per rai.

Chownah

[Loom]

Would cut flowers come close?

[kolohe]

Would cut flowers come close?

poppys maybe..

[Maizefarmer]

Would cut flowers come close?

You bet its possible - there are a couple of Dutch man up in Chang Rai who grow flowers in greenhouses (for the European market) - anyway, if I is not mistaken they are BOI reg'd and their monthly turnover is in the millions (of Baht).

[chownah]

Would cut flowers come close?

You bet its possible - there are a couple of Dutch man up in Chang Rai who grow flowers in greenhouses (for the European market) - anyway, if I is not mistaken they are BOI reg'd and their monthly turnover is in the millions (of Baht).

Is this figure for cut flowers delivered to Europe...including cleaning, cutting, packaging, shipping to Europe and delivery to the market?

Chownah

[ozzydom]

Would cut flowers come close?

You bet its possible - there are a couple of Dutch man up in Chang Rai who grow flowers in greenhouses (for the European market) - anyway, if I is not mistaken they are BOI reg'd and their monthly turnover is in the millions (of Baht).

Is this figure for cut flowers delivered to Europe...including cleaning, cutting, packaging, shipping to Europe and delivery to the market?

Chownah

$100,000 per acre sounds more like WEED to me

[Loom]

Would cut flowers come close?

You bet its possible - there are a couple of Dutch man up in Chang Rai who grow flowers in greenhouses (for the European market) - anyway, if I is not mistaken they are BOI reg'd and their monthly turnover is in the millions (of Baht).

Now you're talking... Aside from poppies, orchids and gangja, there must be flower products that could do the trick, but haven't seen any threads. I understand roses are a fairly big market in the central area around Khamphaeng Phet. The high yield per rai is probably related to high labor and processing costs like packing and shipping but I'm only guessing.