Ford Tractor 4600

[chris21]

Hi Gents

I have about 70 rai of land to turn once and then plant trees, would a Ford 4600 cope its not a huge tractor, but I dont think I really need any thing bigger, after turnning the land it will be used for towing a water tank for watering the seedling and any other small farm work.

Any info wellcome

Chris

[Maizefarmer]

When you say turn it what exactly do you mean - just the top 3"-4" or so, or deeper?

Is this a 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive machine?

No, its not a big machine but they relativly rare in Thailand and I'd rather have a baby Ford than any 2nd hand Iseki, Yanmar or Kubota of the same power, so if the price isn't bad it might be worth buying in any case - to keep for maintaining the land later and just hire a big machine to do the heavy work for you first time round.

[slapout]

The 4600, if I remember correctly has about 8 forward selections. They will pull a molboard plow (2 14") mower, rotor tiller, etc , even a rear mounted blade. They are a little over 40 hp so should handle your 70 rai. Small farmers (160 acres) used them for years in the US. Make sure it has a inline fuel filter installed, will save lots of cussing and cleaning time.

[Maizefarmer]

The problem here slapout will be spares - there are zero baby Ford spares in Thailand and none in Singapore (except consumables) - clutch's, disks, hydraulic parts etc etc ... everything except things like air, fuel and oil filters will have to come from Australia or the UK and it takes a good 3 - 5weeks.

[slapout]

If memory serves me in my old age, India has a lot of the old fords and have a pertty good knock off spare parts business. You may want to check on what is interchangeable, etc. I do not keep up with that side of the market here in Thailand. The previous owner may give a good direction to follow, or maybe thats why he wants to sell.

[Gary A]

With 70 rai, I'd go for one of the 6610's or similar because spare parts are available everywhere. They are really a tough machine and that is proven by the thousands of them all around the country. Watching the Thai cowboys who drive them has given me a total respect for those tractors.

[scotbeve]

Hi Gents

I have about 70 rai of land to turn once and then plant trees, would a Ford 4600 cope its not a huge tractor, but I dont think I really need any thing bigger, after turnning the land it will be used for towing a water tank for watering the seedling and any other small farm work.

Any info wellcome

Chris

Dude,

See if one of your "in-laws" can get work for the tractor when you're not using it....

[Badbanker]

Actually JSSR Auctions in Bangkok have lots of Ford 3000 tractors for sale for under 100,000 baht.  Parts are readily available and they are a good solid tractor!  5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht.   Of course you are buying a tractor that is going to need some cosmetic and minor repair but it is still a good deal!

Have a look at www.jssr.co,.th

BB

Edited March 5, 2008 by Badbanker

[chris21]

Actually JSSR Auctions in Bangkok have lots of Ford 3000 tractors for sale for under 100,000 baht. Parts are readily available and they are a good solid tractor! 5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht. Of course you are buying a tractor that is going to need some cosmetic and minor repair but it is still a good deal!

Have a look at www.jssr.co,.th

BB

Thanks Badbanker will do!

[Maizefarmer]

Actually JSSR Auctions in Bangkok have lots of Ford 3000 tractors for sale for under 100,000 baht.  Parts are readily available and they are a good solid tractor!  5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht.   Of course you are buying a tractor that is going to need some cosmetic and minor repair but it is still a good deal!

Have a look at www.jssr.co,.th

BB

Ford 6XXXX for between 200, 000 and 300, 000 - hel_l, that is cheap - you've actually seen these and the 3000's for less than 100K with your own eyes??

Yes - you bet if what you are saying is accurate its more than a good deal - its bloody excellent.

When you say parts readily avalible - what exactly do you mean Badbanker? I am a Frd parts dealer and I struggle to get anything from Anglo-Thai that is not 6XXX or 7XXX related - other than consumeables. So just what sorts of parts does JSSR have in stock - they are an auction company not Ford parts dealers, so these are used parts are they (many of which can be quite fine)?

More information please.......

Edited March 5, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[Badbanker]

Actually JSSR Auctions in Bangkok have lots of Ford 3000 tractors for sale for under 100,000 baht.  Parts are readily available and they are a good solid tractor!  5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht.   Of course you are buying a tractor that is going to need some cosmetic and minor repair but it is still a good deal!

Have a look at www.jssr.co,.th

BB

Ford 6XXXX for between 200, 000 and 300, 000 - hel_l, that is cheap - you've actually seen these and the 3000's for less than 100K with your own eyes??

Yes - you bet if what you are saying is accurate its more than a good deal - its bloody excellent.

Have a look at the site and one the front page you will see Auction Results!   This gives you a list of prices for all major items sold for the past 6 months!

September 72 tractors sold

October 18 tractors sold

November 78 tractors sold

December 9 tractors sold

January 44 tractors sold

February has still not been posted!

Yes I have been there and other than putting down a deposit and registering it is not a difficult problem to bid.  They are very professional and export as much as 50% of the plant to other countries!

Maizefarmer you know a good used Ford 5, 6 ,7000 series tractorthat is rightly maintained is going to run for more years than you or I are going to be around!   All of these vehicles are running and have been evaluated and rated fairly by JSSR!   I wrote more about this Maizefarmer in anohte post, while you where on your extended sabbatical!

You can check the prices paid and you can look at the vehicles 3-5 days before the auction.  On the purchase of a tractor you can get them to fix up anything you wish them to before you take delivery or sell on.

JSSR is a really huge deal!   A lot of the things that are sold have been repossed by banks.   What this means is that you and I can go in and buy used tractors and other farm equipment at wholesale prices here in Thailand and not have to worry about clearance and sea freight.  Cash and carry!

Good luck MF

BB

Edited March 5, 2008 by Badbanker

[guyshown]

Ford 3000

General tractor information:

Manufacturer: Ford

Model: 3000

Type: Farm/Agricultural tractor

Years produced: 1965 - 1975

Total built:

Factory:

Original price: $6,300 (1975)

Tractor power:

Engine: 47 hp [35.0 kW]

Drawbar (rated): 33 hp [24.6 kW]

PTO (rated): 38 hp [28.3 kW]

Engine:

Manufacturer: Ford

Fuel: gasoline

Cylinders: 3

Bore/Stroke: 4.20x3.80 inches [107 x 97 mm]

Displacement: 158 ci [2.6 L]

Compression: 8:1

Rated RPMs: 2100

Cooling: liquid

Coolant: 13.8 qts [13.1 L]

Torque:

Firing order: 1-2-3

Oil capacity: 8 qts [7.6 L]

Oil type: SAE10W-30 or 30 >75oF >23oC

SAE10W-30 or 20 32o-90oF 0o-32oC

SAE5W-20W or 10W 10o-40oF -12o-4oC

SAE5w-20W or 5W <10oF <-12oC

Sparkplug gap: 0.023-0.027

Point gap: 0.022-0.028

Engine:

Manufacturer: Ford

Fuel: diesel

Cylinders: 3

Bore/Stroke: 4.20x4.20 inches [107 x 107 mm]

Displacement: 175 ci [2.9 L]

Compression: 16.5:1

Rated RPMs: 2000

Cooling: liquid

Torque:

Firing order: 1-2-3

Oil capacity: 8 qts [7.6 L]

Oil type: SAE30 >75oF >23oC

SAE20 32o-90oF 0o-32oC

SAE10W 10o-40oF -12o-4oC

SAE5W <10oF <-12oC

Transmission:

Type: sliding gear

Forward: 4

Reverse: 1

Capacity: 6.6 qts [6.2 L]

Oil type: ESN-M2C77A

M-4864-A

Comments: Tractor must be stopped before shifting.

Transmission:

Type: Select-O-Speed

Forward: 10

Reverse: 2

Capacity: 11 qts [10.4 L]

Oil type: ESN-M2C41-A

M2C41

Comments: Transmission can shifted between gears while moving.

Transmission:

Type: 4-speed with over/under

Forward: 12

Reverse: 3

Capacity: 7 qts [6.6 L]

Oil type: ESN-M2C77A

M-4864-A

Comments: Over/under lever located to the left of the shift lever. Tractor must be stopped before shifting.

Transmission:

Type:

Forward: 8

Reverse: 2

Capacity: 13.2 qts [12.5 L]

Oil type: ESN-M2C77A

M-4864-A

Comments: Four-speed gear selector on left, high-low range select lever on right. Tractor must be stopped before shifting.

Edited March 6, 2008 by guyshown

[Maizefarmer]

Actually JSSR Auctions in Bangkok have lots of Ford 3000 tractors for sale for under 100,000 baht.  Parts are readily available and they are a good solid tractor!  5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht.   Of course you are buying a tractor that is going to need some cosmetic and minor repair but it is still a good deal!

Have a look at www.jssr.co,.th

BB

Ford 6XXXX for between 200, 000 and 300, 000 - hel_l, that is cheap - you've actually seen these and the 3000's for less than 100K with your own eyes??

Yes - you bet if what you are saying is accurate its more than a good deal - its bloody excellent.

Have a look at the site and one the front page you will see Auction Results!   This gives you a list of prices for all major items sold for the past 6 months!

September 72 tractors sold

October 18 tractors sold

November 78 tractors sold

December 9 tractors sold

January 44 tractors sold

February has still not been posted!

Yes I have been there and other than putting down a deposit and registering it is not a difficult problem to bid.  They are very professional and export as much as 50% of the plant to other countries!

Maizefarmer you know a good used Ford 5, 6 ,7000 series tractorthat is rightly maintained is going to run for more years than you or I are going to be around!   All of these vehicles are running and have been evaluated and rated fairly by JSSR!   I wrote more about this Maizefarmer in anohte post, while you where on your extended sabbatical!

You can check the prices paid and you can look at the vehicles 3-5 days before the auction.  On the purchase of a tractor you can get them to fix up anything you wish them to before you take delivery or sell on.

JSSR is a really huge deal!   A lot of the things that are sold have been repossed by banks.   What this means is that you and I can go in and buy used tractors and other farm equipment at wholesale prices here in Thailand and not have to worry about clearance and sea freight.  Cash and carry!

Good luck MF

BB

Yes Badbanker, I have looked at the results pages on JSSR’s website – and the what I see in terms of tractor type, age (deduced form the model types) and condition, is that the prices are little different to the retail prices found at Rangsit for similar units.

I’m on may way to Europe for a week or so (to attend to business and personal matters - and meet some farming forum members), so after landing in good old Bkk earlier today, I went round to JSSR - with check book hand, very eager to follow up what sounded like an exceptional opportunity – despite having looked at the web pages and seen nothing of particular interest price or model wise for the Thai market. With respect, I know the Thai tractor market bettre than most, and I do not believe your description of JSSR is an accurate reflection.

One thing I don’t normally do in Thailand is go near the auctions – they are cut throat places at the best of times – especially when it comes to agriculture and earth moving machinery. It is a well organised extremely professional here, and it’s a business best left to professionals. But the idea that a good condition “big blue” could be obtained for 200k – 300k, of even 400k, is an opportunity not to miss.

..... so heres what I found today when I went to JSSR.

As far as tractors as in farm tractor or Lhot Thai go, yes, indeed JSSR do have some but those I saw …… well, !!!

The 5 Ford 3000’s and the 4 David Browns (and no one in their right mind would buy a DB in LOS – parts would be a nightmare scenario, they even difficult to get in Europe nowadays – which may explain why they are off loaded to Thailand) were tired and would all require extensive mechanical work. The hydraulic were wet and black and the 2 clocks I did see were both over 15 000hrs!

I did see a 7840 in very very good condition and 2 x 6610’s that they are hoping to get 640K – 710K for, but it’s no deal folk –

It’s roughly retail pricing for these models in Thailand (hours aside – and neither had engine clocks). By the way, the same machines in the UK in the same condition goes for about 20% - 35% less (depending if you purchase retail used or auction – then you break it down, stuff it into a container and bring it for 5% duty)

Off the top of my head 80% plus of the farm tractors they had were in the 16hp – 30hp range and nearly all of them would require work done to them. They are they used South Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese small to mid size Iseki’s, Kubota’s, Yanmars, Mitsu’s and loads and loads of Hino’s – the later 2 are almost all Japanese “hinimisho” – term used in the Japanese tractor business for units on their last legs, (which for Japan if you understand how the ag machinery market works in Japan can mean anything from a dent in it, to something with broken big-ends – depending on how wealthy the farmer is).

The 6XXX’s and 7XXX’s that JSSR do sell – and the prices they have gone for are entirely in line with the prices you pay from the Rangsit dealers. i.e. a 500k or 600k blue at JSSR is a 500k or 600k blue at retail – and any 300k “blue” at JSSR is a 300k “blue” at Rangsit i.e. similar conditions, nothing exceptional at JSSR.

While there was indeed a few units in good condition they will be snapped up by the Rangsit or North and North Eastern dealers, but the majority of the stock was jut what one would expect to find at this type of auction – farm tractors that are at the bottom of the used market and would be difficult to sell through retail.

The idea that you can pick up a ready to work Ford 6XXX or 7XXX requiring just a little repair of some cosmetic work for between 200k – 300k is not possible – well, it would have to be on a day that all the Rangsit dealers decided not to attend the auction – and I asked about just that, to be told that the first thing JSSR does when they get good condition blues, is phone half a dozen of the Rangsit dealers they have good relations with – they do it deliberately to get the guys there and so push the price up. Oh yes, JSSR knows what it is selling and its relative value in Thailand – and is not going to do you any favours. Not suprizing for a successful Thai auction company.

In summary, yes JSSR does sell farm tractors (which I didn’t know – learn something new everyday), having being their now myself I can say the prices are typical for tractors of that condition in Thailand. If you do get one on the cheap, consider yourself very lucky to be lucky (meaning even your luck came with luck!).

But a word about auctions in general – it’s a brave man who buys anything mechanical at a Thai auction, let along a used tractor.

For those who wish to get an overview of the “Farm Tractors” coming up at the next auction go to http://www.jssr.co.th – on this page about ¼ of the way down the page you will see a yellow oblong square on the right hand side of the page that has written it in English UNRESERVED PARADE AUCTION.

Open this page and then go the heading on the left hand of the page that says in blue typeface FARMING TRACTOR

Open this page and you will see a typical line up of tractors – not all, there are also Ford 6XXX and 7XXX, but this represents most of the tractors that JSSR sells

Badbanker, if you can find me a Ford 6XXX for 200k - 300k, or 3000 for 100k that requires "some cosmetic and minor repair but it is still a good deal!" - I will be more than happy to pay you 10% - 20% commission for every single one that you can find (at JSSR or any other auction dealer) - I am dead serious about that (we'll both make quite a bit of money).

[Badbanker]

I have been watching JSSR for over 18 months now and just for info here is the result of "Ford Blues" that sold at auction at the end of last month just posted today!

Like I said if you look at the historical sale pricing listed on their site you get a better picture!

Yes the tractor dealers are there and so is anyone else that wants to!  NO they won't reject your bid.   After 20 years in Thailand and having bought a number of things at this auction without problem I don't see the problem!

I work this site everyday and know it inside out.   No it is not the unreserved parade that you want it is the historical Auction Result that you want.  For everyones interested please see the graphic for the results for February's Auction of Ford tractors!

In September last year they sold 8 x Ford 3000 series tractors for between 48,000 and 120,000 baht

In October last year they sold 1 x FORD 4000 series tradctor for 85000 baht

In November last year they sold 3 x FORD 3000 series tractors for 70,000 baht and 2 x 6600  for 300,000 each

In December last year they sold 9 x pieces of 6 ,7 and 8 series FORD tractors for between 235k-550k baht

In January thay also sold 2 Ford tractors

I am including 2 graphics of the actual sale prices from the site to which of course you must add 7% VAT

I will bow to Maizefarmers acknowledged superior wisdom in all things tractor and farm related.   I still can't understand how one of the tractors that were sold in the February Auction constitute a bad deal?   I could get a 6610 for 350k and based on my personal evaluation of the tractor and some hard work on my part for another 50-100k have a dam_n good tractor for my farm which is about 100k less that I would pay in Rangsit!

Help me understand!

BB

PS I may be a baaaad banker but I have been a good farmer all of my life!

Edited March 6, 2008 by Badbanker

[Maizefarmer]

Hang on Badbanker – you’re moving the goal posts: whats all this to do with rejecting bids, or Unreserved or Reserved lots (I only mentioned that to help others id the webpage). Why are you raising these other issues - how do they fit in with the points I was asking for clarification on?

Yes – I can see the tractors you have highlighted with low pricing – but there is nothing on those pages that says anything about the condition - or am I missing it? Those prices by themselves tell a prospective buyer very little.

At the end of your reply you refer to being able to get a 6610 for around 350k, which based on your evaluation could be brought up to spec with some “hard work” and between 50k – 100k.

This 350 figure is close on double the lower estimate you originally provided of 200k, and secondly, using 50k – 100k as guideline prices brings the machine up to 400k or 450k – which is the lower end of the working tractor price(s) in Thailand for 6610 and 7610’s (they are for the sake of those who don’t know, much the same machines with much the same power outputs and mechanics – the 7610 is in short, a later model of the 6610).

Your figures have crept up a bit … haven't they ??

Still, I cannot see how you can make an evaluation that varies as much as 100% regards the work that would need to be done (i.e. from 50k to 100k). For someone with a budget to purchase a 200k – 300k tractor, telling them that repairs could add as little as 25% or as much as 50% on top of the purchase price is just does not make sense – one might as well go out and buy a 400K machine to start with and be done with the unknown side to any potential problems

Share with me please – what evaluation get you get a chance to make?

Did you get a chance to test the hydraulics (that they hang in the same position for x amount of time in the 3 positions as spec’d by the workshop manual), that the pressure and flow rates are constant and as they should be. A replacement set of hydraulics alone for a 6 or 7610 wil set you back over a 100k, and if the hydraulics are shot you can bet the rear drums are seized and/or worn, and that will mean another 50k.

Did you get a chance to check the gearbox?

What if its a “Dual Power” model or a “Powershift” model – most brought into Thailand do not come with surviving graphics on them, or the tin work is good/repainted or changed (and therefore one often can’t tell if they have a PS or DP model on their hands) – get one of these with a gearbox not working properly and you have 150k – 200k bill on your hands to repair – and its something that cannot be evaluated without the engine being loaded – which is not something that can be undertaken at JSSR.

These are bad case scenarios, I’m stretching the point to the extreme – but it highlights the potential risk.

Regarding the examples you highlighted – my point is firstly as noted above, your figures have crept up … a 100k on a 350k tractor brings it to 450 – which is very different from the impression your initial posting gave, but more so, the examples you have quoted reflect their local market value – and the condition they are in, and the amount of work that would have to be done to them, which always unknown until a) you get a chance to run them properly, or get inside the trumpets and the casings to see what the state of play is – unless JSSR gives you a rundown (which they not do in respect of the Fords I asked them about today – other than an off-the cuff remark that they were “fine”, but added and emphasized to me “sold as seen”).

Yes such tractors do exist, and yes the pricing you have highlighted for the few examples you did, is possible to realise – but that its all relative to condition, and unless you can qualify your statement for prices for various examples against exactly what has to be done and what the parts would cost, in each case, the figures are worth little by themselves.

Said my bit – if any reader wants to buy a tractor at an auction in Thailand for a cheap price, without having a chance to check it over and run some basic tests, and not knowing exactly what needs to be done and how much it would cost – by all means do so: but the chances are you are going to get what you pay – well, by all means do so.

My offer stands Badbanker - by all means if you can find any example of 6 or 7610 that reprsents a deal in line with what you orginaly indicated was posible, let me know - I'm all in and will happily pay you a finders commission because you are doing something I have repeatedly tried to do myself (or find locals to do for me) and with few exeptions over the years (mostly being folk who need to offfload the machine for qucik cash) each and everytime I go to take a close look at the machine in question, I reaffirm my belief in that old statement - no such thing as a free lunch.

[Badbanker]

Hang on Badbanker – you're moving the goal posts: whats all this to do with rejecting bids, or Unreserved or Reserved lots (I only mentioned that to help others id the webpage). Why are you raising these other issues - how do they fit in with the points I was asking for clarification on?

Please see my replies in Blue to your points!

Yes – I can see the tractors you have highlighted with low pricing – but there is nothing on those pages that says anything about the condition - or am I missing it? Those prices by themselves tell a prospective buyer very little.

Actually these are all the Ford tractor prices for the past 7 months

One week before the Auction date a full hand written mechanical report is posted on JSSR's for every piece of plant.  3 days before the Auction you get to go and start and test the plant on their site.  While this cannot allow you to load test it does allow you to check things out fairly well!

At the end of your reply you refer to being able to get a 6610 for around 350k, which based on your evaluation could be brought up to spec with some "hard work" and between 50k – 100k.

This 350 figure is close on double the lower estimate you originally provided of 200k, and secondly, using 50k – 100k as guideline prices brings the machine up to 400k or 450k – which is the lower end of the working tractor price(s) in Thailand for 6610 and 7610's (they are for the sake of those who don't know, much the same machines with much the same power outputs and mechanics – the 7610 is in short, a later model of the 6610).

Your figures have crept up a bit … haven't they ??

Yes they have because while I was quoting "5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht."  I was also aware there may be some extra expenses!  Actually I know of people in Kanchanaburi, where I live, that have bought a 6610 for under 300k from JSSR and spent about 25k to get it to where they want it.  Still running just fine 15 months later.  Good Solid tractor working 100 hours a month!

15 months ago they had more than 90 Ford 6 and 7 series tractors in one auction that swamped the Rangsit dealers.  Towards the end of this particular auction of this lot of Ford tractors I saw several (not one) very nice 6610 goin for 220k.  

Still, I cannot see how you can make an evaluation that varies as much as 100% regards the work that would need to be done (i.e. from 50k to 100k). For someone with a budget to purchase a 200k – 300k tractor, telling them that repairs could add as little as 25% or as much as 50% on top of the purchase price is just does not make sense – one might as well go out and buy a 400K machine to start with and be done with the unknown side to any potential problems!

Actually I originally got into this thread to let the average Farang Gentleman Farmer know that if they where not interested in a show pony and want a solid working tractor a JSSR buy is very good deal.  Yes take some one with you that knows tractor preferably Ford's and you should be OK.  I will stand by my original quote "that reasonable 5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht."  Oh and the last batch of Ford's that sold in February all have full enclosures with heating and aircon.  None of them had been repainted so all original decals!

Share with me please – what evaluation get you get a chance to make?

Please

One week before the Auction date a full hand written mechanical report is posted on JSSR's for every piece of plant.  3 days before the Auction you get to go and start and test the plant on their site.  While this cannot allow you to load test it does allow you to check things out fairly well!

Did you get a chance to test the hydraulics (that they hang in the same position for x amount of time in the 3 positions as spec'd by the workshop manual), that the pressure and flow rates are constant and as they should be. A replacement set of hydraulics alone for a 6 or 7610 wil set you back over a 100k, and if the hydraulics are shot you can bet the rear drums are seized and/or worn, and that will mean another 50k.

Did you get a chance to check the gearbox?

See above!

What if its a "Dual Power" model or a "Powershift" model – most brought into Thailand do not come with surviving graphics on them, or the tin work is good/repainted or changed (and therefore one often can't tell if they have a PS or DP model on their hands) – get one of these with a gearbox not working properly and you have 150k – 200k bill on your hands to repair – and its something that cannot be evaluated without the engine being loaded – which is not something that can be undertaken at JSSR.

These are bad case scenarios, I'm stretching the point to the extreme – but it highlights the potential risk.

Yes you are streaching it more than a bit!

Regarding the examples you highlighted – my point is firstly as noted above, your figures have crept up … a 100k on a 350k tractor brings it to 450 – which is very different from the impression your initial posting gave, but more so, the examples you have quoted reflect their local market value – and the condition they are in, and the amount of work that would have to be done to them, which always unknown until a) you get a chance to run them properly, or get inside the trumpets and the casings to see what the state of play is – unless JSSR gives you a rundown (which they not do in respect of the Fords I asked them about today – other than an off-the cuff remark that they were "fine", but added and emphasized to me "sold as seen").

You expect a Thai on the phone to give you a rational answer about a Ford when all they are thinking of is all the Big CAT's for a couple of mill!  Maizefarmer I am a legal translator and I work with people in Thai language  everyday and I can honestly say that even legal thai is very loose in meaning and intent.  

Yes such tractors do exist, and yes the pricing you have highlighted for the few examples you did, is possible to realise – but that its all relative to condition, and unless you can qualify your statement for prices for various examples against exactly what has to be done and what the parts would cost, in each case, the figures are worth little by themselves.

Said my bit – if any reader wants to buy a tractor at an auction in Thailand for a cheap price, without having a chance to check it over and run some basic tests, and not knowing exactly what needs to be done and how much it would cost – by all means do so: but the chances are you are going to get what you pay – well, by all means do so.

Thai people do not tell the truth on the phone and surely do not give you a good evaluation on condition on a few tractors when they have.  Also as these Fords are OFTEN repossesions from banks and finance companies there are often late arrivals from the docks and that don't get listed till real late.  Again You got to be there and you got to be there 3 days before the auction and you got to know what is coming up and you got to know what to look for with Ford plant.

I will stand by my original statement that you can get a a good condition “big blue” for 200k – 300k, which as you said is not an opportunity to miss.  

In June I will be buying a 6610 from JSSR with and all up budget of 300k!  18 months of research makes me confident!

BB

[Maizefarmer]

And I have reply in red - so that it is easily distinguishable - and for any member interested in purchasing a Ford tractor in Thailand, I would suggest you read my comments in red - it will give you some understanding about what you are getting whether it be from me, a delaer or an acution, what that tractors history is likely to be and where it is likely to have come from

Yes – I can see the tractors you have highlighted with low pricing – but there is nothing on those pages that says anything about the condition - or am I missing it? Those prices by themselves tell a prospective buyer very little.

Actually these are all the Ford tractor prices for the past 7 months

Yes, can see that – I don’t see your point though because in the absence of information regards the condition that each one was sold for the price is telling a prospective buyer very little – what is the point you making here?

One week before the Auction date a full hand written mechanical report is posted on JSSR's for every piece of plant. 3 days before the Auction you get to go and start and test the plant on their site. While this cannot allow you to load test it does allow you to check things out fairly well!

Incorrect: it is NOT a full written mechanical report – I looked at examples of these reports that are stuck to machinary (most lots have a report attached) – they are sumarries based on:

a: the tractors log book (which comes with it from Europe) and known mechanical faults which is primarily sourced from

b: the tractors recorded service history.

This is a legal obligation in Thailand (as elsewhere) – but it is most certainly not a full mechanical report. Considering that most of these machines will have had no major service for a couple years prior to last use and being sent for trade in (dealers/owners don’t through money in Europe at 25 – 30year machines – let alone a tractor which is destined for an Asian auction), what transpired in the last few years of service is almost always will NOT be accounted for in the auctioners report – and considering that its usually what transpires in the last few years of service, preceeding a tractor being traded in (which is usually why they get traded in), this missing information can be very telling about a tractors condition - and its going to be the very info lacking.

At the end of your reply you refer to being able to get a 6610 for around 350k, which based on your evaluation could be brought up to spec with some "hard work" and between 50k – 100k.

This 350 figure is close on double the lower estimate you originally provided of 200k, and secondly, using 50k – 100k as guideline prices brings the machine up to 400k or 450k – which is the lower end of the working tractor price(s) in Thailand for 6610 and 7610's (they are for the sake of those who don't know, much the same machines with much the same power outputs and mechanics – the 7610 is in short, a later model of the 6610).

Your figures have crept up a bit … haven't they ??

Yes they have because while I was quoting "5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht." I was also aware there may be some extra expenses! Actually I know of people in Kanchanaburi, where I live, that have bought a 6610 for under 300k from JSSR and spent about 25k to get it to where they want it. Still running just fine 15 months later. Good Solid tractor working 100 hours a month!

Like I said – understood, not disputed: but this is the exception not the rule.

15 months ago they had more than 90 Ford 6 and 7 series tractors in one auction that swamped the Rangsit dealers. Towards the end of this particular auction of this lot of Ford tractors I saw several (not one) very nice 6610 goin for 220k.

Other than quoting about examples of very cheap tractors, which I have to take your word for - what is the point you are trying make....?

Still, I cannot see how you can make an evaluation that varies as much as 100% regards the work that would need to be done (i.e. from 50k to 100k). For someone with a budget to purchase a 200k – 300k tractor, telling them that repairs could add as little as 25% or as much as 50% on top of the purchase price is just does not make sense – one might as well go out and buy a 400K machine to start with and be done with the unknown side to any potential problems!

Actually I originally got into this thread to let the average Farang Gentleman Farmer know that if they where not interested in a show pony and want a solid working tractor a JSSR buy is very good deal.

… and I thank you – it was something new to me and not withstanding my dissagreement with you that one is not likely to get anything of exceptional quality or price wise, it is still worth going to JSSR and I will be going to a couple of auctions to watch tractors and other bits and pieces - and will report back in due course with full detail on what was sold – price and condition.

Yes take some one with you that knows tractor preferably Ford's and you should be OK. I will stand by my original quote "that reasonable 5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht." Oh and the last batch of Ford's that sold in February all have full enclosures with heating and aircon. None of them had been repainted so all original decals!

…… aaahh, yes aircon & heating - which confirms their origin as being European (although in theory some could come from the USA, but Asia is seldom a dumping ground for US 2nd hand tractors).

One week before the Auction date a full hand written mechanical report is posted on JSSR's for every piece of plant. 3 days before the Auction you get to go and start and test the plant on their site.

.... a repeat of what you said earlier – see my reply above regards just what the reports are and what they are based on.

Did you get a chance to test the hydraulics (that they hang in the same position for x amount of time in the 3 positions as spec'd by the workshop manual), that the pressure and flow rates are constant and as they should be. A replacement set of hydraulics alone for a 6 or 7610 wil set you back over a 100k, and if the hydraulics are shot you can bet the rear drums are seized and/or worn, and that will mean another 50k.

Did you get a chance to check the gearbox?

See above!

So the answer is no – but okay, you get a chance to start and run it which can be very useful.

What if its a "Dual Power" model or a "Powershift" model – most brought into Thailand do not come with surviving graphics on them, or the tin work is good/repainted or changed (and therefore one often can't tell if they have a PS or DP model on their hands) – get one of these with a gearbox not working properly and you have 150k – 200k bill on your hands to repair – and its something that cannot be evaluated without the engine being loaded – which is not something that can be undertaken at JSSR.

These are bad case scenarios, I'm stretching the point to the extreme – but it highlights the potential risk.

Yes you are streaching it more than a bit!

Yes – but makes the point doesn’t it? One could buy something that could cost one a lot to repair. Worth taking the chance?

Regarding the examples you highlighted – my point is firstly as noted above, your figures have crept up … a 100k on a 350k tractor brings it to 450 – which is very different from the impression your initial posting gave, but more so, the examples you have quoted reflect their local market value – and the condition they are in, and the amount of work that would have to be done to them, which always unknown until a) you get a chance to run them properly, or get inside the trumpets and the casings to see what the state of play is – unless JSSR gives you a rundown (which they not do in respect of the Fords I asked them about today – other than an off-the cuff remark that they were "fine", but added and emphasized to me "sold as seen").

You expect a Thai on the phone to give you a rational answer about a Ford when all they are thinking of is all the Big CAT's for a couple of mill! Maizefarmer I am a legal translator and I work with people in Thai language everyday and I can honestly say that even legal thai is very loose in meaning and intent.

No, I don’t .... but again, I miss the point you trying to make Badbanker?

Yes such tractors do exist, and yes the pricing you have highlighted for the few examples you did, is possible to realise – but that its all relative to condition, and unless you can qualify your statement for prices for various examples against exactly what has to be done and what the parts would cost, in each case, the figures are worth little by themselves.

Said my bit – if any reader wants to buy a tractor at an auction in Thailand for a cheap price, without having a chance to check it over and run some basic tests, and not knowing exactly what needs to be done and how much it would cost – by all means do so: but the chances are you are going to get what you pay – well, by all means do so.

Thai people do not tell the truth on the phone and surely do not give you a good evaluation on condition on a few tractors when they have. Also as these Fords are OFTEN repossesions from banks and finance companies there are often late arrivals from the docks and that don't get listed till real late. Again You got to be there and you got to be there 3 days before the auction and you got to know what is coming up and you got to know what to look for with Ford plant.

What! – you are having me on, you must think I am a fool - and this is that leaves me wondering about some other things you have said with certainty, because unlike most of it which is unverifiable one way or the other, this is one thing I know about inside out - because it forms a large part of my business and income, and what I can tell you about these Fords often being repossesions from banks and/or finance houses is that this is not correct – and against the background of the facts I share below, one really has to start thinking about what they are going to get for their money – because the figures after transport result in tractor values that are close to zero in the case of the 3000’s and in the case of the 66120’s and the 7610’s puts them in the low to mid thousands in Euro values – before they even left Europe.

The Ford 3000’s , 6610’s and 7610 tractors you see at JSSR (or anywhere for sale/auction in Thailand) have nothing to do with repossession by banks or finance companies. I cannot understand why you brought this into the conversation, but as you have, I’ll reply – not for the sake of correcting you on their origin, but to show how it impacts on their worth before transport costs, and therefore just what type of tractors they are.

Firstly: look how old they are: the 3000’s were made in the 1960’s – 70’s! The 6610’s and 7610’s are from the 70’s and 80’s…. and these are repo’d by banks and finances houses (from European famers)???!!!

So, where do they come from?

With few exception, they are mostly sourced from the UK, France, Holland and Belgium.

They are trade in’s against newer machinary, through dealers who wait till they have a whole bunch of them and then offer them as a job-lot to Far East buyers – who bundle them together. (it is just what I am doing over the next week or so in the UK and Holland – sourcing used Fords and Ford parts to bring back to Thailand).

They separate the trumpets and bell housing, “short” the block and remove the canopys – them stuff it into containers, to be reassembled in Thailand.

Why is it done like this? 2 very important reasons – both related to cost and unit value:

1) Broken down and in a container they can be brought into Thailand as spare parts and are therefore subject to less duty & taxes (and by the way – while at JSSR on Friday, without exception the complete Fords I saw all had the signs of being subjected to this method of import- the main case and trumpet bolts are freshly stripped of paint – all, except the single 7480 ).

2) “Ro-ro’d” a 6 or 7610 to Thailand from Europe the space it takes up would cost around Baht 130 000 (for the benefit of those who do not understand “ro-ro” – it stands for “roll on, roll off” – a complete car or other vehicle sent by ship on its wheels as a complete unit).

The reliavance in all this Badbanker is: that using the figures you have quoted (i.e. 200k – 300k for a decent/reliable/solid – but needing “some” work done to it), it would mean a 6 or 7610 would have cost between Baht 30k -170k in the first place – around Euro 1000 - Euro 3500.

A Euro 1000 - 3500, 6 or 7610 in Europe will a tractor with 15k - 20k hours on the block, it will be tired, it will have numerous faults and will be on its last legs – it will be deemed not worth repairing – it will but short of being a wreck.

Now you are claiming that it is possible to source a tractor as you described (cost/condition and work required) at the cost you have said, starting off with a 6610 or 7610 that cost somewhere around Euro 1000 – 3500?

As far as the Ford 3000 goes it would mean it has being shipped here for free – because shipping any of these Ford tractors “ro-ro” costs around Baht 100k – 120k

Add it up Badbanker – the figures don’t make sense.

A tractor in this price bracket requiring a 100k of work to get into proper shape and working properly will have to be the exception.

Fine - I will stand by my original statement that you can get a a good condition “big blue” for 200k – 300k, which as you said is not an opportunity to miss.

…by all means, by all means - and in response I am inviting you to demonstrate this: introduce me to a Ford 6610 or 7610 that I can get from JSSR auctions for between 200k – 300k that requires around 100k to get into working order and I will give you a finders commission. And by working order this is my qualification:

• hydraulics – flow and pressure in accordance with manual specs.

• top end – within manual spec’s

• bottom end – within 5% of manual spec’s

• transmission – within 5% manual specs (include low/high & 2WD/4WD box)

• 4WD – prefer Carrero but ZF will do – no leaks

• Main block – no porosity

• steering – requiring no work

Just one of the above by themselves – excepting steering – could cost Baht 50k – 100k to fix properly, So source me a 6610 or 7610 that has no more than one of the above requiring work that is within the 200k – 300k price bracket, or one that immaterial of the work required to it, can be brought into spec as described above – and I will pay you a finders commission.

In June I will be buying a 6610 from JSSR with and all up budget of 300k! 18 months of research makes me confident!

And please write up in detail the experiance for all members to see - it is something I have thought of doing for a long time myself - how the auction went, what you got, pictures, what work you need to do etc etc ..... iy will make a good thread

In summary, a potential buyer is not going to be able to just go down to JSSR and just get a tractor of the description and reliability you have described at the cost you are telling us. It will be the exception, not with the degree of easy and straightforwardness you are conveyed.

It was not the evidence I saw their on Friday myself – what I saw was priced within the range I expected it to be priced in for the condition it was in and the work I would expect would have to be done to it.

There were no gift horses looking at me, but I am going to be their at the next 3 auctions of tractors and I am going to come back to the forum with photos of what Fords went for what price, what condition they were in and will follow up with buyers what they have had to do.

I feel in highlighting JSSR auctions was certainly a worthwhile, but the against the background of my experience in this business and what I have seen at JSSR, I have seen no evidence to support your claim that cheap 6610 and 7610 can be had from JSSR auctions as a matter of course, and my concern is that a member will go down there, see a tractor that looks complete and clean – and buy it, only to find they have a pig in the poke – which for 200k 300k is more than likely going to happen, and they will land up spending considerably more than they anticipated to get it it ship shape and running properly.

Now if you can demonstrate otherwise – I will be the first to eat humble pie and reward you financially for that – because together I can assure you, we can make a tidy sum with such tractors up in the North East.

Do we have a deal?

[slapout]

I have attended a few auctions and observed the results of buying, from many more, and came to the conclusion many years ago that the only way to come out on a used tractor is you personally know the history of that tractor, this includes all self propelled machinery. The only 2nd hand equipment that was presented for what it really was, came via trade ins to dealers who could and would run engine checks, transmission and drive gear inspections, etc and repair or replace what was required. I have seen tractors which were 20 years old, used only for light farm work (mowing, dragging, front end loading, etc) with 15,000 hrs and are still working 10 years later with no repairs required (John Deere, I might add). Farm implements such as disks, plows, chisels, porky blades, etc can normally be visually inspected by a knowledgeable person for wear, straight main beams, etc and needed repairs pertty well estimated, add bearing replacement and you have a good reliable piece of machinery, if its taken care of. I am now seeing some John Deere tractors in northern Thailand, so guess someone is importing them. If they are coming via the dearlers in the US, Australia, etc they would be well worth looking at instead of the Fords etc sold at auctions, or fly by nighters. The paper work for testing, inspections,repair, and replacement should be avaliable from the foreign dealer supplying them, as well as spare part which are stocked in Thailand, shipping etc. Yes I am a John Deere fan, but have ran Case, Ford, Massey, and others so do have limited experience for comparision. Many farmers will trade in a tractor when they get 10,000 plus hours, these are normally the larger tractors for 1000 acre farms and would not show up in Thailand. The tractors that seem to be popular here (40 to 75 hp) are used by hobby farmers or as utility tractors on ranches,large farms etc.They would not be expected to have high hours in short time spans (3 to 5 years.Just my 2 baht worth on a beautiful Sat morning

[scotbeve]

Chris,

Did you purchase the tractor yet? Hey, how about up the road from Sri Racha there? There are a couple of used dealers there but the biggest are in Rang Sit on the highway.

Scott

[chris21]

Chris,

Did you purchase the tractor yet? Hey, how about up the road from Sri Racha there? There are a couple of used dealers there but the biggest are in Rang Sit on the highway.

Scott

scott

yeah i just did ,a ford 4600 1981 looks really in good condition, From Talad tractor in Cho Buri 200k with a new seat ,battery top Canopy Radiater recored forthe Khon Kean Heat he said he will open the engine and check it all out

[chris21]

Actually JSSR Auctions in Bangkok have lots of Ford 3000 tractors for sale for under 100,000 baht. Parts are readily available and they are a good solid tractor! 5000 and 6000 series tractors are between 200,000 to 300,000 baht. Of course you are buying a tractor that is going to need some cosmetic and minor repair but it is still a good deal!

Have a look at www.jssr.co,.th

BB

Ford 6XXXX for between 200, 000 and 300, 000 - hel_l, that is cheap - you've actually seen these and the 3000's for less than 100K with your own eyes??

Yes - you bet if what you are saying is accurate its more than a good deal - its bloody excellent.

When you say parts readily avalible - what exactly do you mean Badbanker? I am a Frd parts dealer and I struggle to get anything from Anglo-Thai that is not 6XXX or 7XXX related - other than consumeables. So just what sorts of parts does JSSR have in stock - they are an auction company not Ford parts dealers, so these are used parts are they (many of which can be quite fine)?

More information please.......

Hey guys

I just bought one

yeah i just did ,a ford 4600 1981 looks really in good condition, From Talad tractor in Cho Buri 200k with a new seat ,battery top Canopy, Radiater recored for the Khon Kean Heat. he said he will open the engine and check it all out, had indicators on that still worked, I meam I have seen some wrecks but this really looked good, I will be there when they start it up for the first time so will see what the exhaust produces, white black or BLUE, it also had just been imported from Holland I am well pleased, will do great for my Rubbere trees.

chris

[chris21]

Chris,

Did you purchase the tractor yet? Hey, how about up the road from Sri Racha there? There are a couple of used dealers there but the biggest are in Rang Sit on the highway.

Scott

scott

yeah i just did ,a ford 4600 1981 looks really in good condition, From Talad tractor in Cho Buri 200k with a new seat ,battery top Canopy Radiater recored forthe Khon Kean Heat he said he will open the engine and check it all out

fghrftgh

[slapout]

Chris; glad to hear you got what you want and price must have suited you. For 70 rai I doubt if you will be running it too hard. Those little tractors are kind of like that engizer rabbit, just keep going. Those with settlement bulb below fuel tank can really be helped by adding a in line replaceable fuel filter to the fuel line. The bulb is fine for catching water, but trash goes right on thru into the rest of fuel and ignition system. I would be courious as to engine, transmission,etc checks that are done by seller and does he give any type of warrenty or is it Okie type (out the door and paid for, its your problem) The pto system is not real strong if I remember correctly. Some people would add a adapter to the pto spline which had a shear pin if they were using it hard, the shear pin could be replaced easily and cheaply and it protected the drive train to pto. Let us know how it all works out.

[scotbeve]

Chris,

Did you purchase the tractor yet? Hey, how about up the road from Sri Racha there? There are a couple of used dealers there but the biggest are in Rang Sit on the highway.

Scott

scott

yeah i just did ,a ford 4600 1981 looks really in good condition, From Talad tractor in Cho Buri 200k with a new seat ,battery top Canopy Radiater recored forthe Khon Kean Heat he said he will open the engine and check it all out

fghrftgh

Huh???? 200K not a bad price... How're you gonna transport it? 6 wheeler?

[Maizefarmer]

Congrats - will be a little slow going on 70rai, but other than that you will be just fine.

Is it 2WD or 4WD? - in any case if you are doing any draft work and ploughing - make a frame up and cast a concreate block of about 250 - 320 kg's to throw on the front - will make a big big differance once you start dragging a plough.

Can send you a list of things to check out if you wish - but one thing I will reccomend is you check your oil filter to see that it is a genuine oil filter and not a counterfeit with a flimsy paper filter.

[slapout]

I did not know Ford made a 4 wheel drive 4600, learn something new every day. I ran our sick neighbors little fordson pulling a 2 bottom plow no problem, no weights. He later upgraded (his term) to a 4600 and figured he cut plowing time by 25%. He was an old dutchman who made and drank his own beer so we did not believe everything he said, especially after mid afternoon.

[chris21]

Congrats - will be a little slow going on 70rai, but other than that you will be just fine.

Is it 2WD or 4WD? - in any case if you are doing any draft work and ploughing - make a frame up and cast a concreate block of about 250 - 320 kg's to throw on the front - will make a big big differance once you start dragging a plough.

Can send you a list of things to check out if you wish - but one thing I will reccomend is you check your oil filter to see that it is a genuine oil filter and not a counterfeit with a flimsy paper filter.

Thanks Maizfarmer,

The unit is a ford 4600 2WD three cilinder 59HP, the same engine as the 6610 but a cilinder down.

Talad tractors seem quite good, he said they would open the enging and check it out [ I thought yeah yeah yeah[ but I was round there on Tuesday and wow my enging was opened! new liners going in new shells, and pistons, he said they will open the gearbox, back-end and check it too, I checked the crank myself, did not have any grooves. the Tractor had just been shipped in from Holland.

I have also invested in new tyres, battery, seat, canopy, a front dozer and a disc plough so a total of about 280,000 in the end, oh and a paint job for free.

I will hire in a larger tractor to turn the land first time and Watch very carfully how he does it, and ask him nicly with an extra 500 if he will set up my plough and give it a go.[what do you think??]

Yes please send me a list of things I should look for. many thanks. [cant wait to get on it]

Chris

[chris21]

I did not know Ford made a 4 wheel drive 4600, learn something new every day. I ran our sick neighbors little fordson pulling a 2 bottom plow no problem, no weights. He later upgraded (his term) to a 4600 and figured he cut plowing time by 25%. He was an old dutchman who made and drank his own beer so we did not believe everything he said, especially after mid afternoon.

Slapout sorry if I missled you it a 2WD

The unit is a ford 4600 2WD three cilinder 59HP, the same engine as the 6610 but a cilinder down.

Talad tractors seem quite good, he said they would open the enging and check it out [ I thought yeah yeah yeah[ but I was round there on Tuesday and wow my enging was opened! new liners going in new shells, and pistons, he said they will open the gearbox, back-end and check it too, I checked the crank myself, did not have any grooves. the Tractor had just been shipped in from Holland.

I have also invested in new tyres, battery, seat, canopy, a front dozer and a disc plough so a total of about 280,000 in the end, oh and a paint job for free.

I will hire in a larger tractor to turn the land first time and Watch very carfully how he does it, and ask him nicly with an extra 500 if he will set up my plough and give it a go.[what do you think??]

Yes please send me a list of things I should look for. many thanks. [cant wait to get on it]

Chris

[chris21]

Chris,

Did you purchase the tractor yet? Hey, how about up the road from Sri Racha there? There are a couple of used dealers there but the biggest are in Rang Sit on the highway.

Scott

scott

yeah i just did ,a ford 4600 1981 looks really in good condition, From Talad tractor in Cho Buri 200k with a new seat ,battery top Canopy Radiater recored forthe Khon Kean Heat he said he will open the engine and check it all out

fghrftgh

Huh???? 200K not a bad price... How're you gonna transport it? 6 wheeler?

Yeah he will deliver dunno how?

The unit is a ford 4600 2WD three cilinder 59HP, the same engine as the 6610 but a cilinder down.

Talad tractors seem quite good, he said they would open the enging and check it out [ I thought yeah yeah yeah[ but I was round there on Tuesday and wow my enging was opened! new liners going in new shells, and pistons, he said they will open the gearbox, back-end and check it too, I checked the crank myself, did not have any grooves. the Tractor had just been shipped in from Holland.

I have also invested in new tyres, battery, seat, canopy, a front dozer and a disc plough so a total of about 280,000 in the end, oh and a paint job for free.

I will hire in a larger tractor to turn the land first time and Watch very carfully how he does it, and ask him nicly with an extra 500 if he will set up my plough and give it a go.[what do you think??]

Yes please send me a list of things I should look for. many thanks. [cant wait to get on it]

Chris

[scotbeve]

Chris,

Did you purchase the tractor yet? Hey, how about up the road from Sri Racha there? There are a couple of used dealers there but the biggest are in Rang Sit on the highway.

Scott

scott

yeah i just did ,a ford 4600 1981 looks really in good condition, From Talad tractor in Cho Buri 200k with a new seat ,battery top Canopy Radiater recored forthe Khon Kean Heat he said he will open the engine and check it all out

fghrftgh

Huh???? 200K not a bad price... How're you gonna transport it? 6 wheeler?

Yeah he will deliver dunno how?

The unit is a ford 4600 2WD three cilinder 59HP, the same engine as the 6610 but a cilinder down.

Talad tractors seem quite good, he said they would open the enging and check it out [ I thought yeah yeah yeah[ but I was round there on Tuesday and wow my enging was opened! new liners going in new shells, and pistons, he said they will open the gearbox, back-end and check it too, I checked the crank myself, did not have any grooves. the Tractor had just been shipped in from Holland.

I have also invested in new tyres, battery, seat, canopy, a front dozer and a disc plough so a total of about 280,000 in the end, oh and a paint job for free.

I will hire in a larger tractor to turn the land first time and Watch very carfully how he does it, and ask him nicly with an extra 500 if he will set up my plough and give it a go.[what do you think??]

Yes please send me a list of things I should look for. many thanks. [cant wait to get on it]

Chris

Hey,

Sounds good... Happy ploughing!! I'll send you an email later.

Scott