seonai Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 As suggested here's the new thread on Robert. I've tried to copy in the stuff from the Sagharaja thread but think I've lost all the links... ooops, sorry about the pigs ear job. Maybe SJ can clean it up By the way do you know Phra Dhammanando in Wat Ben ? -------------------- sabaijai QUOTE (seonai @ 2008-02-25 14:11:50) It was Somdet Phra Nyanasara that I met. It must have been cool to study with him SJ. By the way do you know Phra Dhammanando in Wat Ben ? Only via email, and the brilliant documentary about him, Act Normal. Coincidentally last weekend I visited a wat in Lampang that he recommended, Wat Tha Ma-O. Before Ven moved to Wat Ben to continue his Pali studies (though the actual courses are at Wat Rakhang), he lived here and at Wat Phra Phutthabaht Tak Pha in Lamphun, I believe. He's a very active poster at e-sangha. -------------------- "Sabaijai" is my surname, not my state of mind ... seonai He is a good teacher and a good friend of mine too. Wonderful sense of humour and very knowledgable. He logged me on to e-sangha but I unsubscribed as there were too many emails -------------------- Fear is the prison in which we put ourselves....... Hope is the fuel of progress, Tony Benn MP chutai QUOTE Only via email, and the brilliant documentary about him, Act Normal. I'd like to get a copy of this film. I've tried the Act Normal website but it's no longer available. Any idea where I can buy or download it. Thanks. -------------------- When the sky is clear, the ground is illuminated. sabaijai QUOTE (chutai @ 2008-03-02 18:36:33) QUOTE Only via email, and the brilliant documentary about him, Act Normal. I'd like to get a copy of this film. I've tried the Act Normal website but it's no longer available. Any idea where I can buy or download it. Thanks. I would suggest contacting the director, Olaf de Fleur, via his myspace.com page. -------------------- "Sabaijai" is my surname, not my state of mind ... Chutai also see here -------------------- Fear is the prison in which we put ourselves....... Hope is the fuel of progress, Tony Benn MP seonai Sabaijai would it be possible to create another thread on Robert? I've just watched that UTube clip and there are many issues. One most apparent is that Robert ordained at the age of 17 and was a dilligent and funny student until being in Iceland where he felt human urges take over an eventually married a woman fron Kasakstan (he stayed with me en route to visit her home town). But as with real Buddhism he discovered that all was not sweetness and light and chose to go back to the Sangha. -------------------- Fear is the prison in which we put ourselves....... Hope is the fuel of progress, Tony Benn MP seonai See here too http://www.poppoli.com/an_trailer.html -------------------- Fear is the prison in which we put ourselves....... Hope is the fuel of progress, Tony Benn MP sabaijai QUOTE (seonai @ 2008-03-03 00:43:45) See here too http://www.poppoli.com/an_trailer.html See also the Movies About Buddhism thread, where I reviewed the DVD of Olaf's film. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...25&start=25 Seonai, feel free to start a new thread on Ven Dhammanando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Tan Dhammanando lives in Wat Benchamabopitr in Bangkok. Does anyone go in to see him regulary? I sent him some fancy tea recently. We used to all have such wonderful meetings outside his quarters on a sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabianfred Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 (edited) He is very active at the E-Sangha website and forums I have always found his replies to be excellent dhamma http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?act=idx Edited March 3, 2008 by fabianfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I have always found his replies to be excellent dhamma I enjoy many of his posts too, but he seems overly critical of traditional Thai Buddhism. Check out his comments about Aj Boowa and "eternal citta" or about how Thais tried to persuade him to become Aj Boowa's student and then got very upset when he criticized his teachings. He's been critical of Wat Pa Nanachat too, as I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabianfred Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 well maybe has had personal experiences which have caused him to be critical...... is WPN perfect then? my teacher also had issues with the present abbot of WPN when he was still in the UK...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Well, the point is once we start criticizing it's usually the ego that's responsible. If I'd been a monk for many years I'd hope to have my ego under control. Then again, Internet web forums seem to stimulate almost everyone's ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austhaied Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Well, the point is once we start criticizing it's usually the ego that's responsible. If I'd been a monk for many years I'd hope to have my ego under control. Then again, Internet web forums seem to stimulate almost everyone's ego. You mean their "illusion'' of an ego.. Don't you ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trader1 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Well, the point is once we start criticizing it's usually the ego that's responsible. If I'd been a monk for many years I'd hope to have my ego under control. Then again, Internet web forums seem to stimulate almost everyone's ego. Wow and here you are criticising the monk. Have tyou ever read the Katthavatthu (part of the Tipitaka) where wrong views of numerous monks are exposed and strongly condemned. There is a great deal of nonsense expounded by certain famous thai monks, and if one young monk is brave enough to expose it he should be applauded for his courage and thanked for his help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 You mean their "illusion'' of an ego..Don't you ?? The ego is real enough. It just isn't the enduring self/soul we think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Wow and here you are criticising the monk. By saying he seems over-critical? Have tyou ever read the Katthavatthu (part of the Tipitaka) where wrong views of numerous monks are exposed and strongly condemned. There is a great deal of nonsense expounded by certain famous thai monks, and if one young monk is brave enough to expose it he should be applauded for his courage and thanked for his help. Unsolicited criticism of monks (or anyone else) doesn't help anyone along the path to enlightenment. From my own practice, I've found it usually leads in the opposite direction. i.e. the criticizing makes us feel superior. I think the Buddha would have included criticism in Right Speech except that teachers need to criticize their students and parents need to criticize their children. It's very difficult to criticize with no aversion at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trader1 Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 (edited) Unsolicited criticism of monks (or anyone else) doesn't help anyone along the path to enlightenment. From my own practice, I've found it usually leads in the opposite direction. i.e. the criticizing makes us feel superior. I think the Buddha would have included criticism in Right Speech except that teachers need to criticize their students and parents need to criticize their children. It's very difficult to criticize with no aversion at all. And yet here we are with you giving unsolicited criticism of a monk. What makes it right or wrong is the underlying mind state- is it rooted in wisdom, or in ignorance, or in wrong view. If the Bhikkhu Dhammanando is correct in his criticism and Boowa is talking about a lasting citta, then it would seem Dhammanando would be doing a great service by pointing out the wrong views of this famous monk. Look at the Tipitaka to read the several hundred examples where the Buddha says It is not fit, foolish man, it is not becoming, it is not proper, it is unworthy of a recluse, it is not lawful, it ought not to be done. How could you, foolish man, having gone forth under this Dhamma and Discipline which are well-taught, [commit such and such offense]?... It is not, foolish man, for the benefit of un-believers, nor for the increase in the number of believers, but, foolish man, it is to the detriment of both unbelievers and believers, and it causes wavering in some. — The Book of the Discipline, Part I, by I.B. Horner (London: Pali Text Society, 1982), pp. 36-37. or when he mentions other religions who hold wrong views: "The Jains are unbelievers, immoral, shameless and reckless. They are not companions of good men and they exalt themselves and disparage others. The Jains cling to material things and refuse to let go of them. They are rogues, of evil desires and perverse views." Edited March 5, 2008 by trader1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 And yet here we are with you giving unsolicited criticism of a monk. This topic is about Dhammanando, i.e. comments are being solicited. That's a lot different from a monk criticizing a possible arahant. Since Seonai knows him, perhaps she can tell us if he has a tendency to criticize aspects of Buddhism in Thailand. What makes it right or wrong is the underlying mind state- is it rooted in wisdom, or in ignorance, or in wrong view. If the Bhikkhu Dhammanando is correct in his criticism and Boowa is talking about a lasting citta, then it would seem Dhammanando would be doing a great service by pointing out the wrong views of this famous monk. He may not be correct, though, and I don't see much wisdom in deliberately upsetting the followers of someone believed to be an arahant. Some people get overly attached to pointing out what is "right" and what is "wrong" with others. There are lots of monks who simply get on with teaching what they believe to be the right way and don't bother criticizing those who think differently. Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumedho come to mind. I cringe every time I read about the farang students who criticized Ajahn Chah. Look at the Tipitaka to read the several hundred examples where the Buddha says... The buddha was an arahant, so he was beyond any possibility of being influenced by ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trader1 Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 This topic is about Dhammanando, i.e. comments are being solicited. I just went to esangha and had a look at the threads you are probably talking about. One was titled Ajarn sumedho and was asking for comments about the practice of listening to a sound in the ears that the said ajarn promotes, and the other was called Ajarn Mun and eternalism and was asking about comments in a book that Boowa wrote. Neither thread was started by Dhammanando but his comments were IMO the most learned in the threads, with references to the Tipitika. I think you can see that comments were being solicited. As for your statement about Boowa being an arahat, I take it you undersatnd that it is considered equally reprehensble, as per buddhist theory, to praise those who don't deserve it as it is to wrongly criticize someone who is pure. Dhammanando seems to have given good reasons as to why some monks are holding wrong views, perhaps you can give us some reasons why anyone should believe Boowa to be an arahat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I just went to esangha and had a look at the threads you are probably talking about. One was titled Ajarn sumedho and was asking for comments about the practice of listening to a sound in the ears that the said ajarn promotes, and the other was called Ajarn Mun and eternalism and was asking about comments in a book that Boowa wrote. I don't think it was either. Interestingly, in the introduction of Ajahn Sumedho's new book, The Sound of Silence, Ajahn Amaro points out that forest tradition monks often assign special meanings or multiple meanings to specific terms, and he gives Aj Boowa and "eternal citta" as an example. From a quick search through E-sangha I think the topic I was thinking of related to "Does one have to be a monk to become an arahant?" Solicited or not, well-argued or not, his comments seem pretty strong to me. For example: If after all that I've written on it, people are still so intellectually befuddled and emotionally besotted as to think that the dhamma of the Ajahn Mun forest tradition is faithful to the Buddha's Dhamma, or that the ajahns in this tradition who teach the "eternal citta" doctrine have "kindled even one spark of wisdom", then no further words from me are likely to persuade them otherwise. I didn't realize he felt so strongly about Ajahn Mun and all those in the Forest Tradition who follow his teachings. Here's another gem: The Buddha didn't ascribe any such function to citta. Whatever the Hindus and the Thai forest fakirs may teach, in Buddha Dhamma there is no knowing that arises independent of conditions, and no big knowing connecting or integrating all the little knowings. There are just little knowings, and that's your lot. As for your statement about Boowa being an arahat, I was very careful to say "someone believed to be an arahant" because apparently many Thais believe that, even though no one can really know. I have no idea why Thais think he's an arahant. At the end of the day, Thai Buddhism is what is is. I don't see the point in bashing Thais over the head about it because it won't change their minds and it will likely cause a lot of friction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 Well I do know that Dhammanando studied under Ajahn Boowa for some years and I also know the Dhammanando chooses his words carefully and is very well experienced in Buddhism. He may know things we don't. I can't vouch for his every word but I do believe that criticism is neccessary in all things and questions do need to be debated.. in the Kalama Sutta the Buddha said that we should never believe something until we have experienced it for ourselves and I go with that doctrine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabianfred Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 I think the Thais probably consider Ajarn Boowa to be an arahant because he was a main student of ajarn mun who was also considered to be an arahant.....and it gives that impression in the biography written about him by ajarn boowa.. Luang Por Jaran..the abbot of wat Amphawan, Singhburi..is also considered to be an arahant....and I would tend to agree....but like all good arahants, he denies it... my teacher is also considered to be an arahant by quite a few of her students....she also will not discuss it of course...those who are wise will welcome criticism...and thank those giving it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted March 6, 2008 Author Share Posted March 6, 2008 Okay now I am getting a non recognised email on Dhammanando's email ... anyone any the wiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chownah Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Well I do know that Dhammanando studied under Ajahn Boowa for some years and I also know the Dhammanando chooses his words carefully and is very well experienced in Buddhism. He may know things we don't. I can't vouch for his every word but I do believe that criticism is neccessary in all things and questions do need to be debated.. in the Kalama Sutta the Buddha said that we should never believe something until we have experienced it for ourselves and I go with that doctrine At e-sangha, Dhammanando is a valued contributor. He has accumulated a wealth of knowledge on Therevada Buddhism...and other types of Buddhism as well. He also seems to be well read in a worldly way and is a very expressive writer. He has strong opinions about what is legitimate and what is not when it comes to Theravada Buddhism and he expresses his opinions freely. He is a human being and is not perfect. He has posted things which most unbiased observers would say are not polite or even tempered...especially concerning people who have held ordinations for women and then declared them to be monks (bhikhuni) and people involved in the Thai Forest Tradition. He did not back off from some of his inappropriate assertions (inappropriate for having made them in a public forum which requires respectful posting if nothing else) when their inappropriateness was pointed out. These same posts were eventually deleted from the forum since (I assume) the administration deemed them to be inappropriate. I want to stress that these inappropriate posts are just a tiny tiny fraction of all that he has contributed. The vast overwhelming 99.9% plus of his posting is exceedingly valuable and would be difficult information to find if not for his willingness to take his time to present some of what he knows. I'm giving my view on this as a reply to your post because I want to agree that he seems to chose his words carefully but it is also my view that in a very few cases his words seem to be chosen from a perspective which is in my view inappropriate for placement on an internet forum and especially inappropriate for a monk......but then we like he are only human and I am surely at least as guilty on this account as my description of him. Chownah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Well I do know that Dhammanando studied under Ajahn Boowa for some years and I also know the Dhammanando chooses his words carefully and is very well experienced in Buddhism. Well, that explains a lot. I get the impression he is (now) strictly orthodox when it comes to the Pali Canon and commentaries, and that is not the case with the Forest Tradition. Here is a post in which he defines who is "classical Theravada" and who is "modern Theravada": Bear in mind that contemporary exponents of classical Theravadin teachings are not by any means unanimous about every detail of those teachings. What they share is the assumption that the full Pali Tipitaka and its Mahāvihāra commentaries are a trustworthy presentation of the Buddha's teaching. Such persons include the following monks (in no particular order): the venerables Nārada (Sinhalese) and U Nārada (Burmese), Nyanatiloka, Nyanaponika, U Thittila, Mahāsi Sayadaw (and his disciples such as U Janaka and U Paṇḍita). In fact the great majority of Burmese bhikkhus can be assumed to be of the classical view. Then among lay teachers there are the Thai laywomen Acharn Naeb and Acharn Sujin, and the latter's Dutch student, Nina van Gorkom, and the Burmese writers and translators Shwe Zan Aung and Pe Maung Tin. I think we need to distinguish between those who are broadly in agreement with the classical view, but depart from it in the occasional detail, and those who radically reject it. The former would include the venerables Ñāṇamoli, Bodhi, and Prayut Payutto, and the lay teachers Lance Cousins and Rupert Gethin. The latter would include the venerables Buddhadāsa, Thanissaro, Sujāto, and Ñāṇavira. Then there is a third category, consisting of those who don't depart from the classical view for any principled reason but simply because they are very ignorant about it. Teachers like this can be found virtually anywhere where there is a bias against pariyatti, but are especially prominent among Thai forest monks in the Ajahn Mun tradition and North American vipassana teachers of a certain stripe (though not by any means all of them). Asked whether Thai Forest monks reject the Pali Canon, he says: No, but most of them have virtually no acquaintance with the Tipitaka and so all of their notions about the Dhamma come from their ajahns. But being unacquainted with the Tipitaka, they are in no position to judge what is Dhamma and what is not Dhamma in their ajahns' teachings. And being generally pretty credulous people they just accept their ajahns' teachings unquestioningly, and so errors go unchecked and get passed on. One can see that this is the case just by looking at how they constantly misuse Buddhist technical terms. Here's an example from Ajahn Sumedho... If we are talking about doctrinal orthodoxy alone, the Thai forest monks probably don't come off looking so good, but IMO that isn't the whole story. These were the monks who walked the walk, spent much of their lives on thudong meditating in the jungle (just as the Buddha did), inspired a generation of Western Buddhists, and brought the idea of nibbana in this life back into fashion - all without any formal education. in the Kalama Sutta the Buddha said that we should never believe something until we have experienced it for ourselves and I go with that doctrine So I guess you don't believe in literal rebirth as described in the Pali Canon then. I think this is the issue that splits Western Theravadins down the middle. Either you accept literal rebirth on faith because it is the word of the Buddha, or you set it aside because it can't be proven experientially and doesn't relate to the core teaching of "suffering and a way out of suffering." I think the latter is what makes Ajahn Chah's lineage so popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted March 6, 2008 Author Share Posted March 6, 2008 Very interesting Camerata and yes I'd have to go along with the latter too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santeri Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I'm giving my view on this as a reply to your post because I want to agree that he seems to chose his words carefully but it is also my view that in a very few cases his words seem to be chosen from a perspective which is in my view inappropriate for placement on an internet forum and especially inappropriate for a monk......but then we like he are only human and I am surely at least as guilty on this account as my description of him.Chownah Wow... talking about kamma vipaka... I googled for something totaly different, and ended up readin this post, Chownah... The Act Normal is exellent piece of documentary. I posted a link to it on E-sangha, but the moderators removed the post, because they don't wan't it becoming a hindrance to Dhammanandos teaching in E-sangha. I am not sure I agree... It is a good and informative documentary. Meaby they are right, I don't know... Dhammanando is very intelligetent monk. We have had few strong conversation regarding the Forest Traditon. I am a former monk from Wat Nanachat and I have a solid faith in Luang Por Mun and Luang Por Maha Boowa. He is trying to point out some faults in the teaching of those monks, but he is actully making the Forest Tradition more famous. This is how I look at it! Please ignore some of the more radical post by Dhammanando and focus on the good things. He's teaching on the Suttas, I mean. No need to worry to much about the other stuff. Luang Ta's website: http://www.luangta.com/English/Index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabaijai Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I find it strange that e-Sangha is deleting posts about the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhw58 Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Wow... talking about kamma vipaka... I googled for something totaly different, and ended up readin this post, Chownah...The Act Normal is exellent piece of documentary. I posted a link to it on E-sangha, but the moderators removed the post, because they don't wan't it becoming a hindrance to Dhammanandos teaching in E-sangha. I am not sure I agree... It is a good and informative documentary. Meaby they are right, I don't know... Dhammanando is very intelligetent monk. We have had few strong conversation regarding the Forest Traditon. I am a former monk from Wat Nanachat and I have a solid faith in Luang Por Mun and Luang Por Maha Boowa. He is trying to point out some faults in the teaching of those monks, but he is actully making the Forest Tradition more famous. This is how I look at it! Please ignore some of the more radical post by Dhammanando and focus on the good things. He's teaching on the Suttas, I mean. No need to worry to much about the other stuff. Luang Ta's website: http://www.luangta.com/English/Index.html Hi Santeri, Yes, an excellent documentary. Having spoken with Dhammanando privately on a couple of occasions, I whole heartedly agree that he is, as you say, a "very intelligent monk." From my estimation, I would also add that he is a very sincere and upright monk with an admirable understanding of the suttas and the adbhidhamma, obtained from not only protracted periods of study but also extended periods of practice--a rare type of monk. He's currently off-line spending the entire rains retreat in seclusion somewhere in the Chiang Mai region. I respect your "solid faith" in Ajahn Mun and Maha Boowa. However, even among the faithful these forest Ajahns are not beyond criticism. Ajahn Jayasaro, also has strong faith in Maha Boowa; even so, he thinks Maha Boowa was mistaken in his decision to speak openly about his final attainment. (See Jayasaro's video series on Ajahn Chah: "43.Talking about Enlightenment: http://ajahnchah.org/videos.htm ). Best regards, Hal __________________________________________________________ "Wherever there is right view, that place will be tranquil." Ajahn Chah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nampeung Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) I would like to visit this monk, when will he be in Bangkok? Anyone know how to contact him please? Edited July 21, 2008 by Nampeung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nampeung Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Just found the link to the film if anyone wants to watch it http://www.poppolipictures.com/actnormal_film.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabaijai Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Just found the link to the film if anyone wants to watch ithttp://www.poppolipictures.com/actnormal_film.html Pinned to the top of the page for our Buddhism subforum you'll find a special discussion thread about films with Buddhist themes. There you will find a few comments, plus my mini-review, on this film. Search the thread for 'Act Normal'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nampeung Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Oh thanks so much Sabaijai, just what I was looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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