Isn't This Called Discrimination

[basjke]

Don't renew your membership and keep telling everyone about the dual pricing, including here on ThaiVisa. It never ceases to amaze me why people still buy the product when they know they are being ripped off (i'm not including national parks etc in this but purely businesses). It's all about supply and demand, no customers = lower the price, abundance of customers = keep price up (especially for farang).

A bar near me started having ladies nights once a week. Ladies get in for free and get half price drinks, most of the guys where seriously p1ssed off about this and the majority decided to boycott it. Ladies night lasted about 2 months because the numbers attending where so low. Quite a few women at first but not many men and then leass and less women. They then decided to have happy hours instead.

Result = every body happy

Thank you for your support mrbolangles.The way you stated it is the way I see it.Perhaps Mr Tony has the right to sell his product the way he does,but it is my right to make people aware of these discriminating tactics.

Edited March 5, 2008 by basjke

[Gary A]

Joining a health club is NOT a life's necessity. Marketing is marketing and if you don't like it, keep your money in your pocket.

[toptuan]

Back in my home country, my 78-year-old mom gets a 50% "senior citizen's" deduction on her property tax, saving her tens of thousands of dollars annually. Heck, at 55, I can't get that sort of break. I call that age discrimination!

My point: age discrimination, ethnic discrimination, gender discrimination, etc. What's the fundamental difference between them? Special privileges for different kinds of people. A business has a right.

Face it, you're not in the Politically Correct home country, any more, Toto! Just be glad you don't have to constantly use a dirtier public restroom that says "Foreigners Only!"

Edited March 5, 2008 by toptuan

[mikethevigoman]

This is meant as an open letter to Mr Tony,who is assumed to be a member of this forum,but I invite everyone to post their opinion.

I am a member of Tony's gym for several years but my membership is due to renewal.As I see daily the advertisements through pickup's and billboards for a lifetime membership at 14.999 baht I decided to take one.So up I went to Tony's fitness,the one with the pool,with my 14.999 baht and applied for a lifetime membership.

The staff overthere told me that this price only was for thai people and that the foreigner price was 19.999 baht.I told them that I lived in Thailand for over 10 years,had a company and paid taxes and carried a thai driver licence so in my opinion was entitled to the thai price.Also told them that if I showed my thai driver licence at the entrance of national parks or at underwater world I would presumably be charged the thai price.They went up to the manager,who is Mr Tony's brother,with my reply but returned with the message that they could not serve me at that price.

Later on I had the opportunity to talk with Tony's brother personally and asked him why Tony's had this policy.He told me that this was called marketing.I never knew that discrimination was a form of marketing and told him that if someone would do this in the western world they would face legal issues at least.Again he told me that this was their marketing strategy and that less then 20 % of their customers were thai.

All of Mr Tony's businesses are aimed at foreigners so doesn't he forget that it is us who made him to what he is today?Why bite the hand that feeds you?I also know that Mr Tony and many members of his family lived in the US and Europe for a considerable time so I wonder if they ever were threated with the same attitude when abroad.

I sincerely hope this topic is read by Mr Tony or is forwarded to him and that he will personaly respond at it on this open forum.In the mean time please post your opinions.

In thailand this is normal isnt it ? im not saying i agree with it but seems normal for Thailand,.

[mrbojangles]

My point: age discrimination, ethnic discrimination, gender discrimination, etc. What's the fundamental difference between them? Special privileges for different kinds of people. A business has a right.

The difference is, everbody knows that pensioners get the discount (and so they should, they have paid their dues).and they also don't advertise that as the price that everyone pays.

If say for ease of argument, the annual bill was $10,000. That is what everyone pays unless you qualify for discount. If your mother get's 25% off she will then pay $7,500 but that is not the advertised price.

In this scenario, Tony is advertising the price at $7,500 but then when you think yeah i'll have that, he says "oh no, that is for pensioners, your rate is $10,000"

[torrenova]

Lets see if I can clarify a few things here as some of the numbers are wrong.

For about 3 or 4 years, Tony's annual gym membership, as painted on his building, ranged from Bt2999 to Bt8000 which I saw with almost monthly changes to the price.

In the 2nd quarter last year Tony went on an advertising drive for a month and then two with a lifetime offer of Bt14999 which included his rapidly growing number of facilities. The annual membership was Bt5999 but you had to pay a minimum of 2 years in advance and thus is was either Bt14999 for ever or Bt11998 for two years. After the two month window, the lifetime membership rose to Bt19999 wher it remains to this day.

About 2 or 3 months ago, Tony started to introduce a new series of television adverts on Sophon Cable. in the middle of one of these adverts was a say 10 second burst in Thai with the price of Bt2500 payable in installments of Bt500 a time. Obviously this is aimed at the Thai market and I seriously doubt they would allow a westerner to join on those rates.

Now I understand that Tony has been investing heavily in other projects but as we come around to about one year after he introduced the lifetime membership, now at Bt19999, I would presume many people have converted as they may be offered it at Bt14999 because they are current members or be faced with Bt8000 for one year or Bt11998 for two years.

It begs the question as to how they are going to cover overheads ? Now if you invested the Bt20k for each person then perhaps you could but if you spend it and your only income (other than anciliary items) is new lifetime memberships or Bt200 a day customers then I don't see how it can survive going forward after a certain point (perhaps 3 or 4 years assuming Bt20k / 4 ).

What would happen if it were sold ? would the new owners honour the lifetime memberships ? perhaps not. Now if the churn rate is high enough then perhaps people pay lifetime membership but then never go or go less because of less pressure to get their money's worth before their membership expires.

Anyone else come across a similar business which has traded successfully for a lengthy period offering a once only lifetime payment ? I know a number of gyms in the US and UK which have gone under offering far less generous terms.

[BaDSaM]

It's wrong.

why?

That you have to ask why Naam tells me that your morals are either in the gutter or you're joking. Which is it?

[BaDSaM]

Try to get a lifetime membership for less then 20.000 Baht in another gym..

Good luck

I'm sorry, did someone ask you to compare it to another gym? Does that matter. I'll give you the answer as you appear challenged, it does not.

The price to Thais is 5000 baht less for a lifetime. That's discrimination.

[edwardandtubs]

I fall down with Tony on this one...not just Tony but any private business owner. They set-up and business, take the financial risk, and have the right to run/management it in any way they wish. Pricing their goods/services is certainly one of these business decisions they should be free to make without interference from others. If you don't like a business's policies, you are free to take your self and your money somewhere else.

In addition, in a legal sense it is not discrimination for many reasons. To begin with, Thailand, in general, does not have anti-discrimination laws that are found in most Western countries. The Kingdom has not "advanced" enough to the point where such laws have been enacted. Also, in the West, most anti-discrimination laws are limited to the areas of housing, employment, and public accommodation AND are based on some immutable characteristic of a person, i.e., their sex, race, and sometimes sexual orientation. Even in the West, it is legal to discriminate against someone or class of people if it is not related to one of the aforementioned categories or is based on some non-protected characteristic of the person.

Therefore, even in the West, differential pricing is allowed for many categories of people and charging different prices for different nationalities or citizenships would most likely be completely legal.

Your post is totally inaccurate. Charging different prices for different nationalities would be totally illegal everywhere in the EU. I suggest you read the UK Race Relations Act sometime.

[edwardandtubs]

Universe Gym on Sukhumvit also has dual pricing. The receptionist told me one set of prices then gave me a piece of paper with lower (Thai) prices. I inquired about this and she apologised and gave me a piece of paper containing the higher (farang) prices.

[Robski]

I never knew that discrimination was a form of marketing and told him that if someone would do this in the western world they would face legal issues at least.Again he told me that this was their marketing strategy and that less then 20 % of their customers were thai.

You couldn't get membership at such a well equipped gym as this in the west for that money.

Also there are other costs involved, hiring staff that speak English and translating all their advertising for instance.

Ok it would be great to have everything the same price, but if you can't afford the extra 5,000 baht per year,

I'm sure you could find somewhere less expensive.

[basjke]

I never knew that discrimination was a form of marketing and told him that if someone would do this in the western world they would face legal issues at least.Again he told me that this was their marketing strategy and that less then 20 % of their customers were thai.

You couldn't get membership at such a well equipped gym as this in the west for that money.

Also there are other costs involved, hiring staff that speak English and translating all their advertising for instance.

Ok it would be great to have everything the same price, but if you can't afford the extra 5,000 baht per year,

I'm sure you could find somewhere less expensive.

Well in that case he could also do it without the english speaking staff.I don't need them to lift a dumbell.

[mr.buffalo]

In my younger days (1958-1982 ) I lived in Southern Africa, regularly going from South Africa, Botswana, Zimbabwe ( Southern Rhodesia ) and Zambia ( Northern Rhodesia ) and can honestly say that I never ever encountered dual pricing and those countries are not as well off as Thailand I can assure you, but if you can't stand the heat......

[BaDSaM]

Why are so many of you spineless apologists? Let that question sink in because that is how you appear to me. The OP states that he is being discriminated against because he is not a Thai. While he holds a drivers license and has been working and living in Thailand, he is being charged more not based on his ability to pay, but his origin.

Get that through your thick heads, it has nothing to do with his ability to pay. Anyone care to argue that? Anyone care to get byte slapped?

What bothers me more about this thread, is not that there is discrimination here in Thailand, one only has to look at television or see how Issan people of darker persuasions are treated here to see that too many Thai People hold prejudices. What bothers me most, is that the spineless apologist enablers are more than the people who have morals and know right from wrong.

Shame on all of you.

[Lucifer]

In my younger days (1958-1982 ) I lived in Southern Africa, regularly going from South Africa, Botswana, Zimbabwe ( Southern Rhodesia ) and Zambia ( Northern Rhodesia ) and can honestly say that I never ever encountered dual pricing and those countries are not as well off as Thailand I can assure you, but if you can't stand the heat......

Maybe because the people running the Country were white and rich.

[tattoodrob]

Lets see if I can clarify a few things here as some of the numbers are wrong.

For about 3 or 4 years, Tony's annual gym membership, as painted on his building, ranged from Bt2999 to Bt8000 which I saw with almost monthly changes to the price.

In the 2nd quarter last year Tony went on an advertising drive for a month and then two with a lifetime offer of Bt14999 which included his rapidly growing number of facilities. The annual membership was Bt5999 but you had to pay a minimum of 2 years in advance and thus is was either Bt14999 for ever or Bt11998 for two years. After the two month window, the lifetime membership rose to Bt19999 wher it remains to this day.

About 2 or 3 months ago, Tony started to introduce a new series of television adverts on Sophon Cable. in the middle of one of these adverts was a say 10 second burst in Thai with the price of Bt2500 payable in installments of Bt500 a time. Obviously this is aimed at the Thai market and I seriously doubt they would allow a westerner to join on those rates.

Now I understand that Tony has been investing heavily in other projects but as we come around to about one year after he introduced the lifetime membership, now at Bt19999, I would presume many people have converted as they may be offered it at Bt14999 because they are current members or be faced with Bt8000 for one year or Bt11998 for two years.

It begs the question as to how they are going to cover overheads ? Now if you invested the Bt20k for each person then perhaps you could but if you spend it and your only income (other than anciliary items) is new lifetime memberships or Bt200 a day customers then I don't see how it can survive going forward after a certain point (perhaps 3 or 4 years assuming Bt20k / 4 ).

What would happen if it were sold ? would the new owners honour the lifetime memberships ? perhaps not. Now if the churn rate is high enough then perhaps people pay lifetime membership but then never go or go less because of less pressure to get their money's worth before their membership expires.

Anyone else come across a similar business which has traded successfully for a lengthy period offering a once only lifetime payment ? I know a number of gyms in the US and UK which have gone under offering far less generous terms.

Actually a lot of gyms do deals like this (cheap lifetime memeberships) just before they go under or are sold as obviously its a quick money earner for the owner...im not saying this is the case here but it is a concern as things that look to good to be true......... usually are.i wouldnt particularly want to lose 20k baht for nothing or just 6 months membership and if the gym was sold i can guarantee that those memberships will not be honoured.......its not viable.

as to english speaking staff(someone else posted about this)....when i go, there is not an english speaker or maybe sometimes there is.

just a bit more moan about the place......lights are on a bare minimum(like training in a dungeon) and air con off.........ok i go later than the average trainer but would be nice to be able to see the machines!!!

why do i go there then???? its open 24 hr and that is convenient to my schedule otherwise i would go to universe gym or maybe even the california sales office.....ooops i mean gym.

i would also have thought that he would presently like to be as competitive as possible with the recent opening of a larger more equipped gym ...instead of putting his lifetime memberships up.

it is discrimination and im sure they wouldnt like it if they went to britain and they said oh your thai so you pay more as they can afford to holiday there so must be wealthy.

i dont mind thais getting cheaper if they are unemployed etc as this is fairer but not just because its there country as the only reason.there are a lot of rich thais and foreigners but also some poor foreigners that might like to train for health reasons etc.

i agree that if you dont like it then train somewhere else but that dont make it right...does it?

also a foreigner pays more money but is probably in the country less than a thai due to visa reasons etc so surely it should be cheaper as potential to use the facilities are less.end of rant.

[enyaw]

I for one, agree with the price difference.

It's a way of getting Thai women to exercise there.

And we'd pay the same price with or without the difference.

I couldn't imagine if it was only farang men, which is what it would be without the price difference.

Then I wouldn't want to go there.

Part of my enjoyment is seeing the beautiful Thai women in there.

And the Thai men don't exercise there even with the price difference.

In the West, they have something called "Ladies' Night" at bars where every woman drinks for free.

This accomplishes the same goal.

It's so us men have something to look at besides one another's disgustingly ugly mugs.

I don't want to look at only you guys.

I can't believe you guys want to kick all those beautiful women out of the gym.

In reference to Bojangles post:

This is my understanding aswell, the more females you have in the place then you'd expect the numbers in males to increase. What I wouldn't expect is for the males to start boycotting the place because of the so called gross injustice of free or half priced drinks for the ladies?!

Edited March 5, 2008 by enyaw

[Robski]

What bothers me most, is that the spineless apologist enablers are more than the people who have morals and know right from wrong.

Shame on all of you.

So what you gonna do? Start a demo? Boycott all Thai establishments? Write to the Mayor of Pattaya? Whinge on a public forum?

What do you think we should do?, sympathise yes, but get bothered over 5,000 baht?

For a Thai that's half a months wage, for a Westerner half a days wage.

"spineless apologist enablers" that's quite funny

Edited March 5, 2008 by Robski

[lioness]

Quite right Naam, advertising in English for the Thai is Bulldust. No discrimination laws in Thailand how about misreprepresentation in advertising?

[BaDSaM]

What bothers me most, is that the spineless apologist enablers are more than the people who have morals and know right from wrong.

Shame on all of you.

So what you gonna do? Start a demo? Boycott all Thai establishments? Write to the Mayor of Pattaya? Whinge on a public forum?

What do you think we should do?, sympathise yes, but get bothered over 5,000 baht?

For a Thai that's half a months wage, for a Westerner half a days wage.

"spineless apologist enablers" that's quite funny

My guess is that most of you submissives cower like sheep when the Baht Bus Drivers yell at you to sit up straight and move over so they can shove one more onto the bench you are sitting on. Spending your entire lives frightened and cowering is no way to represent yourselves or your country.

[ZZZ]

My guess is that most of you submissives cower like sheep when the Baht Bus Drivers yell at you to sit up straight and move over so they can shove one more onto the bench you are sitting on. Spending your entire lives frightened and cowering is no way to represent yourselves or your country.

Well, if you don't try and accommodate as many passengers as possible it's no surprise that farangs get a bad name and have to pay more. I frequently see big size farangs spreading their legs in the baht bus taking up 2-3 places. Then when they get off they get into an argument about 5-10 baht THAT is no way to represent yourself and other farangs

[Gary A]

Aggressive and antagonistic farangs are just what Pattaya needs to improve our image. When I am packed into a parked baht bus, I pay Thai price. Normally I will flag down an uncrowded baht bus and am happy to pay the double fare to be more comfortable. If I don't like the way a place does business I vote with my wallet and my feet. I don't whinge about double standards or discrimination. What a bunch of crybabies.

[Naam]

It's wrong.

why?

That you have to ask why Naam tells me that your morals are either in the gutter or you're joking. Which is it?

i don't possess any of those morals you are pointing out my friend. this world has taught me that those who have morals and live according to morals which make them cry out "racist" or type "wrong" in "size 7" when they encounter double pricing are in my eyes losers.

you asked, i answered.

[ZZZ]

Double pricing is in most cases based on economics, in general, Thai people are less well off then farangs. Therefore they get a discount at many venues in tourist areas, it's not just because they are Thai but that is used as the determining criteria. (a farang with Thai citizen ship would get the same deal, with proof of citizen ship)

Retirees, school children and others are getting discounts in all western countries at all sorts of venues and services. This is because they are generally seen as being less well of than the general public, by your thinking this would also be discrimination

[Humphrey Bear]

Try to get a lifetime membership for less then 20.000 Baht in another gym..

Good luck

I'm sorry, did someone ask you to compare it to another gym? Does that matter. I'll give you the answer as you appear challenged, it does not.

The price to Thais is 5000 baht less for a lifetime. That's discrimination.

Thais have a shorter life expectancy. That's a great shame.

[barky]

Say you will use the lifetime membership for 5 Years..

20000Baht/ 5= 4000 Baht a year.

Payed more then that back in Europe for only 3 months.

I don't live in Europe. I'm on a Thai salary, pay taxes, spend my money here, bought property, married a Thai etc, etc. If you don't have a nice little earner coming in from Europe your argument is totally irrelevant!

[barky]

Double pricing is in most cases based on economics, in general, Thai people are less well off then farangs. Therefore they get a discount at many venues in tourist areas, it's not just because they are Thai but that is used as the determining criteria. (a farang with Thai citizen ship would get the same deal, with proof of citizen ship)

Retirees, school children and others are getting discounts in all western countries at all sorts of venues and services. This is because they are generally seen as being less well of than the general public, by your thinking this would also be discrimination

I'm sorry Mr.ZZZ I beg to differ. My argument is this; There are very many Thai's in Thailand that get paid more than me, so why don't they have to pay more than me?

A westener with Thai citizen ship, shit , I could count them on one hand.

Oh, and the retirees and kids you mentioned maybe the fact that the retirees worked, paid taxes, and probably fought for their country at some time in their life might warrant a discount for services rendered. And for the kids, their parents pay taxes for them.

The fact is that any Thai getting off the plane in say, Sydney, Australia today will pay absolutely no more for any product or service they care to purchase than the people who were born and bred there.

[BaDSaM]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And there we have it. As westerners, we come to this country with superior morales, and likely a superior intellect. This two-tiered pricing says two things about the Thais:

1. You are inferior to the westerner incapable of earning or doing or thinking better than him.

2. You are lazy and needn't improve your station in life, we don't expect you to pay the correct price so we will hand you a crutch all your life.

[ZZZ]

Double pricing is in most cases based on economics, in general, Thai people are less well off then farangs. Therefore they get a discount at many venues in tourist areas, it's not just because they are Thai but that is used as the determining criteria. (a farang with Thai citizen ship would get the same deal, with proof of citizen ship)

Retirees, school children and others are getting discounts in all western countries at all sorts of venues and services. This is because they are generally seen as being less well of than the general public, by your thinking this would also be discrimination

I'm sorry Mr.ZZZ I beg to differ. My argument is this; There are very many Thai's in Thailand that get paid more than me, so why don't they have to pay more than me?

I did say in GENERAL. To have people bring income and bank statements would not work.

A westener with Thai citizen ship, shit , I could count them on one hand.

They do exist so it is not a racial discrimination as some people try to make it to.

Oh, and the retirees and kids you mentioned maybe the fact that the retirees worked, paid taxes, and probably fought for their country at some time in their life might warrant a discount for services rendered. And for the kids, their parents pay taxes for them.

The reason retirees are getting the discount is not because they may have paid taxes or may have fought a war, it's because they are in general less well off economically. Child tax? never heard of that, in most countries you get an allowance and tax deductions for children. The reason again is that children cost money and couples with children have higher costs and therefore they get a discount.

The fact is that any Thai getting off the plane in say, Sydney, Australia today will pay absolutely no more for any product or service they care to purchase than the people who were born and bred there.

Many previous posters in this and other threads have mentioned the discounts available in other countries for residents, where visitors have to pay a higher price.

There is no way to satisfy everyone and there will always be a minority of people in an unfair position. I agree that in your situation you should pay the local price but to work out a scheme to fit every single situation is impossible.

[edwardandtubs]

What do you think we should do?, sympathise yes, but get bothered over 5,000 baht?

For a Thai that's half a months wage, for a Westerner half a days wage.

A Thai person earning 10,000 a month is unlikely to pay 15,000 baht for gym membership. Obviously Tonys in targeting middle class Thais, many of whom earn a lot more than your average Pattaya expat. Given your warped way of seeing the world (Thai = poor, Westerner = rich) it's not surprising you try to justify discrimination.