"อักษรและสำเนียง"

[DavidHouston]

For those of you who might be interested in language issues in general and Thai or Chinese in particular, Professor Nithi Eewsriwong has an article in today's Matichon Weekend Magazine. Here are the first several paragraphs:

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ฉบับวันที่ วันที่ 14 มีนาคม พ.ศ. 2551 ปีที่ 28 ฉบับที่ 1439 หน้า 26 หน้า 91

นิธิ เอียวศรีวงศ์

อักษรและสำเนียง

หนึ่งในความรู้มากมายเกี่ยวกับแต้จิ๋วที่ผมได้จากอาจารย์ ถาวร สิกขโกศล ในบทความ "แต้จิ๋ว : จีนกลุ่มน้อยที่ยิ่งใหญ่", ในศิลปวัฒนธรรม ฉบับเดือนกุมภาพันธ์ 2551 ก็คือ สำเนียงแต้จิ๋วเป็นสำเนียงที่ใกล้กับภาษาจีนในสมัยราชวงศ์ถัง หากอ่านกาพย์กลอนในสมัยราชวงศ์ถังด้วยสำเนียงแต้จิ๋วแล้ว ก็ถือว่าใกล้เคียงกับเสียงที่กวีได้ยินในใจของเขามากที่สุด

Matichon Weekly Magazine

Issue dated 14 March 2551, Year 28, Issue number 1439

Page 91

by Nithi Eewsriwong

"Characters and Pronunciation"

One of the many pieces of knowledge that I received regarding the Tejiew (dialect) from Ajarn Thaworn Sikkhakosol in the article, "Tejiew: a Chinese Dialect of Great Importance" in the February 2008 issue of "Arts and Culture" is that the Tejiew dialect has a pronunciation scheme very close to Chinese during the Tang dynasty. If you read the poetry of the Tang dynasty with a Tajiew accent, you will come to understand that these (sounds) are the closest to what the poet heard in his own mind.

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Some vocabulary from this article I had not previously encountered:

สัทศาสตร์ [N] phonetics สัทอักษร [N] phonetic alphabet

สัญลักษณ์แทนความคิด – ideogram

สัญลักษณ์แทนเสียง – phonogram = อักษรที่ใช้แทนเสียง

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Professor Nithi discusses, inter alia, the cultural and communication effects of alphabetic versus pictographic languages and how some of the Chinese dialects are related. For you mavens, there is probably nothing new here. For us learners and amateurs, on the other hand, the discussion in Thai is both interesting and informative.

Happy reading!

Edited March 14, 2008 by DavidHouston

[aanon]

that is an interesting bit of knowledge, david. are you planning on posting more snippets? Professor Nithi seems to be quite prolific as a writer. somtimes i find his style a bit convoluted and big-wordy - much like reading social or political science texts. on the flipside, the challenge of reading him is nearly always educational.

just one small suggestion for your translation:

here, ถือว่า means 'it can be said that you are' or 'you can be considered to...' [producing sounds closest to what the poet heard in his own mind].

all the best.

[DavidHouston]

Thank you, Khun Aanon. I appreciate the suggestion for the phrase "ก็ถือว่า". In addition, we should note that the construction you mention is part of a "complex sentence" (in a grammatical context) construction:

"หาก. . . แล้ว, ก็ถือว่า . . . "

It seems to me that the both clauses, the initial dependent clause and the second independent clause, lack a stated subject noun. The noun is apparently implied.

"หากอ่านกาพย์กลอนในสมัยราชวงศ์ถังด้วยสำเนียงแต้จิ๋วแล้ว ก็ถือว่าใกล้เคียงกับเสียงที่กวีได้ยินในใจของเขามากที่สุด"

"If you read the poetry of the Tang dynasty with a Tajiew accent, you will see that these (sounds) are the closest to what the poet heard in his own mind."

A more British approach might be:

""If one reads the poetry of the Tang dynasty with a Tajiew accent, one can produce (sounds) which come closest to what the poet heard in his own mind."

For me, the Thai construction has too passive a flavor to be rendered well in English. Although I like the accuracy of your 'it can be said that you are' or 'you can be considered to...' , I like the more active rendering with a stated English noun and active verb. Perhaps this is just a matter of personal preference.

I want to thank you, Khun Aanon, for maintaining this dialog on reasonable English renditions of Professor Nithi's often difficult prose. However, I believe reading his work is worth the effort. He is a thoughtful and iconoclastic thinker and writer and I learn new words, phrases, and constructions with each article I read.

[aanon]

Thank you, Khun Aanon. I appreciate the suggestion for the phrase "ก็ถือว่า". In addition, we should note that the construction you mention is part of a "complex sentence" (in a grammatical context) construction:

"หาก. . . แล้ว, ก็ถือว่า . . . "

It seems to me that the both clauses, the initial dependent clause and the second independent clause, lack a stated subject noun. The noun is apparently implied.

"หากอ่านกาพย์กลอนในสมัยราชวงศ์ถังด้วยสำเนียงแต้จิ๋วแล้ว ก็ถือว่าใกล้เคียงกับเสียงที่กวีได้ยินในใจของเขามากที่สุด"

"If you read the poetry of the Tang dynasty with a Tajiew accent, you will see that these (sounds) are the closest to what the poet heard in his own mind."

A more British approach might be:

""If one reads the poetry of the Tang dynasty with a Tajiew accent, one can produce (sounds) which come closest to what the poet heard in his own mind."

For me, the Thai construction has too passive a flavor to be rendered well in English. Although I like the accuracy of your 'it can be said that you are' or 'you can be considered to...' , I like the more active rendering with a stated English noun and active verb. Perhaps this is just a matter of personal preference.

I want to thank you, Khun Aanon, for maintaining this dialog on reasonable English renditions of Professor Nithi's often difficult prose. However, I believe reading his work is worth the effort. He is a thoughtful and iconoclastic thinker and writer and I learn new words, phrases, and constructions with each article I read.

hi david,

i see your point about the translation needing to yield a good result for the whole sentence, not just one particular phrase. so here's a reworking that leaves out the specific translation of ถือว่า, keeps the subject ambiguous and retains the hypothetical nature of the sentence (by using the word 'would').

reading Tang-dynasty poetry in a Taejiew accent would deliver a result closest to what the poet originally heard in his own mind.

any better? i also like your version using 'one' to generalise the subject.

all the best.

[meadish_sweetball]

Elegant solution. Improves the readability of the sentence, while still not sacrificing anything vital (except perhaps the emphasis on sound, but it is easily deducted from 'reading' and 'heard' anyway) .