Once Bitten, Twice Shy...

[Globeliner]

The other eve I went for a quiet beer on my own, without the wife, at a local restaurant near my home, little did I know what was in store for me...

Two Thai dogs (female/male) came trotting over to me as they do, I thought nothing of it and filled my glass with one of Thailands finest ales.

To cut a long story short, the female is very friendly and often comes over to greet me and I do stroke her, she's cool. With no warning the male sunk its huge fangs into my leg! What if this was a small child? I tell all of you, this is not a pleasant experience at all!

Maybe the female was on heat and the male was jealous? Could he see me as a threat because he could smell my other dogs? I have 6 dogs.

The fangs of this animal puntured deep into my shin, 10 mm to be precise, the owner footed the hospital bill (6k Baht) and offered for me and my wife to dine for free. All told I've had near on 15 injections.

To you all, I'm sure most of you would avoid dogs that you don't know, but be aware that if treated badly or on heat, they can be extremely volatile.

My leg is a mess and the dog is no where to be seen, I think the owner has disposed of it.

[Nienke]

Shocking!

Shocking for you as you didn't expected this at all, and a dog bite hurts like hel_l.

Shocking for the owner. Though I get the impression he handled it quite well.

And shocking for the dog. He's just a dog, acted like a dog and is now desposed?

All in all a rather nasty and painfull experience. I wish you a fast recovery!

Nienke

[Globeliner]

Indeed shocking, thanks for your comments Nienke, rather scary that I didn't prevoke the beast and it attacked on pure instinct I presume.

My biggest worry would be if it was a small child. The dog is no longer around so one can only assume that the owner, having to pay for my medical fees, would have taken actions into his own hands and got rid of the dog, you can't have an animal in your restaurant who could turn on anyone, anytime.

[bina]

why 15 shots?

rabies here is five shots and possible a 'rabies' vaccine rinse in the wound itself, and u have a good long time to decide if needed or not: i.e., if the dog is suspected of having rabies, its neccessary to get the shots right away, although it does depend on where the bites were.

then, one tetanus push (the one u get if u step on a nail or something) shot which is also depending on when u had your last tetanus shot (most countries its once every 10 ys unless u work with animals or in an other field that involves more exposure to tetanus: builders, etc).

and ciproflaxin antibiotic.... and of course pain killers,

although keep an eye out cause dog bite wounds are problematic and painful.... usually because of secondary infection

i hope they didnt stitch the wounds shut; standard procedure is to leave openings for 'air' so aenarobic bacteria doesnt develop

....

could be your 6 dog smell; unfortunately i have the same problem with other males smelling my own dogs on me... and having them react accordingly (aggressing a bit)... but never bitten because of this...

bina

israel

[Globeliner]

Hi Bina, 15 shots, no idea why but "it was necessary".

Pills too, to be exact Amoksiklav 1000mg twice a day, I think the hospital is a little OTT, they made my wife sign a form so if there was a problem, due to their treatment, I couldn't complain

[Nignoy]

Sorry about your experience and pain in getting bitten,but if everyone would believe and act!! on what we have been trying to teach , There is no such thing as animal, tame or wild that does not BITE!!!!! Dogs especially because of their tight contact with people young and old, I expect there will be replies,from dog owners who really believe it when they say my dog does not Bite!!I could reel off 1000,s of cases of severe dog attacks many resulting in death,a good friend well known in Germany for his well trained dogs,had the horrible experience of seeing his 9 year old family pet german shepherd,without warning,turn and bite his 8 year old son in the face, just one snap is all it took to crush the boys face so badly he needed years of plastic surgery to rebuild, this family pet was a favourite and famous dog in the town, it used to collect the breadrolls from the bakers every morning on its own, it was a (fromme hund) a gentle loving dog, why it bit the boy no one will ever know Nignoy

[Globeliner]

Interesting reply Nignoy, sorry to hear about that.

There must be something that sets them off?

[Nienke]

There certainly is something that sets them off!

Unless, it is a brain tumor, dogs do not just bite out of the blue. It may seem so, but normally the dog has 'talked' before already. Problably first by turning the head away, then by walking away, a quick stare, stiffening, a growl (unnoticed by the adult) etc. untill it uses it last resource and that's a snap.

The head/mouth of a big dog or when small dogs are allowed on a high place, such as bench or chair is at approximately the same hight as the face of the child, hence the bites in the face.

Children and dogs should NEVER be left alone un-supervised. Because, how does an adult know what happens, what the child does and how the dog 'talks' back? More often than not, bite accidents could have been prevented, if only people wouldn't leave their kids unsupervised with their dogs! No matter how friendly and trustable the dog always has been. Wouldn't you get irritated when a child pulls yoor hair or ear time after time after time, while you have done everything in your power to gently tell the kid off? Or when the child time after time put both arms around the neck of the dog? Most dogs really don't like that, altough many may tolerate it. Or like my 'famous' example, when a known as most friendly and gentle golden finally bit after the twelve's staple pinched in his (or her) ear? Where was the supervision?

Ok, I know, I started ranting. The OP is an adult who was severly bitten and that's bad enough. Most probably the OP did something that set the dog off. Even a, for us, simple thing like putting one leg over the other can be seen as a dominant (challeging) act by the dog and trigger a correction, such as a bite.

Nienke

[Globeliner]

The thing is I didnt do anything so make this beast snap, thats what annoys me, fair enough if I had taunted it etc I would understand. I believe he could smell my other dogs and got the hump.

In my opinion dogs that do that need to be put down, would anyone agree?

[Nignoy]

In the mid 70,s I ran a Study Kennels in lower saxony it was sponsored by Das Tierschutz Bund(Animal protection society). Our aim was Behavioural studies on dogs, who had attacked for no apparent reason and to find out why they attacked and try and cure the problem ,many cases were fault of the owners or careless ness in the super vision of children, many cases were wrong environment for the dog the cause of the attack,many of the worse cases were dogs that had been trained to early, dogs like shepherds, borders, labradors,are still playful but almost fully mentally mature any time around 15months, and are easily schooled simply from their 12 week some start to take notice and learn even earlier when handled gently.However dogs such as Rotti.s Great danes, Bernards, dobermans to name a few are very slow starters and do not mature mentally till nearly 3 years old some even longer,and any hard obedience or protection training undertaken earlier does irrepairable damage ,and in later years, turns these often mild mannered giants out of the blue into deranged beasts, why do you think that very few police and customs dogs are rotties or great danes, these slow starters make wonderful family pets when raised in a family environment, and when trained with care make great guard and PP dogs.Greater problems arise through in and over breeding of the smaller fashion breeds of dogs ,Some Spaniels,Pekes , not to forget all the furry Rats , yorkshire, maltese and all the other ankle bitersbut their attacks are not so well published as a Kelpie or a Heeler attack, because of their size the smaller types of dog, some of them are allowed to rule the homes , letting their protective attacks go un punished, I am sure I have missed out many facts, Oldtimers Disease I,m sure Nignoy

[bina]

what were the 15 shots???rabies? tetanus? antibiotics? what? i find that a little wierd....

as nienke and nignoy point out, hard to say what triggered that bite... there is no such thing as 100 % no bite dog; it is a carnivore with teeth and one must always remember that...

as my lhasa reminds us over and over again... but being small, his teeth dont leave too much of a mark....

but his behavior patterns are classic behavioral dog things so its fun to see and test them on him....

i have read about 'strange' attacks from dogs in tel aviv living near the airport supposedly the noise level (sub sonic super sonic whatever) affected some dogs and they would have 'sudden rage' attacks.... great home dogs suddenly going ballistic.

not related really to the OP though....

nayway, u dont think u did anything but that is subjective, if we were to ask the dog, we might get a different answer...

putting the dog down isnt the answer if it was a one off thing... perhaps moving him to a different enviroment would be the better answer, its not like he was a vicious dog all the time. this was a one time thing.

we ahve a dog that bit one person only, it was a combination of 'chain dog' guarding his area, someone approaching him with confidence and at last minute suddenly becoming afraid and changing body signals so that the dog felt threatened suddenly and then lunged. fortunately, it was someone wearing heavy jeans so no real teeth penetration, and tuvia the dog has good bite inhibition so at last minute didnt close his mouth all the way once he felt 'flesh'... but ripped the jeans... we actullay did a 'replay' of the situation to see what the trigger was...

[Globeliner]

bina, I can't tell you exactly the name of the fluids injected, what I can tell you though is that 10 were injected around the wounds, 2 in my fore arms for a test of some sort, and 2 more in my arms, 1 more today. I would think these injections would be for everything?

[bina]

sounds like the difference between live and dead virus vaccines... the ones in the wound area are also rabies injections cant remember which ones are used where,; they are really taking precautions, maybe cause it was an unprovoked attack?

too bad u didnt think of having the guy keep the dog for 10 days closed off somewhere to see if it developed symptoms; rabies can be carried silently for quite awhile before it activates, depending on the mammal host....

or sent the dog's head off to testing (chop off the head, refrigerate (dont freeze it kills the viruses) and off to a lab)...

and i suspect that one jab was a tetanus, and at least one was antibiotics instead of pills...

two jabs for testing?? how can they do jab for testing? blood tests maybe but not jabs.

well, whatever, it doesnt sound pleasant at all...

makes me think that i should do my rabies jab (prevention) since i work at a vet's office... it can be done once every few years since it can be checked by blood titre after that to see amount of antigens....

take care

bina

[Globeliner]

sounds like the difference between live and dead virus vaccines... the ones in the wound area are also rabies injections cant remember which ones are used where,; they are really taking precautions, maybe cause it was an unprovoked attack?

too bad u didnt think of having the guy keep the dog for 10 days closed off somewhere to see if it developed symptoms; rabies can be carried silently for quite awhile before it activates, depending on the mammal host....

or sent the dog's head off to testing (chop off the head, refrigerate (dont freeze it kills the viruses) and off to a lab)...

and i suspect that one jab was a tetanus, and at least one was antibiotics instead of pills...

two jabs for testing?? how can they do jab for testing? blood tests maybe but not jabs.

well, whatever, it doesnt sound pleasant at all...

makes me think that i should do my rabies jab (prevention) since i work at a vet's office... it can be done once every few years since it can be checked by blood titre after that to see amount of antigens....

take care

bina

Bina that sounds a bit OTT don't you think?

[Nignoy]

sounds like the difference between live and dead virus vaccines... the ones in the wound area are also rabies injections cant remember which ones are used where,; they are really taking precautions, maybe cause it was an unprovoked attack?

too bad u didnt think of having the guy keep the dog for 10 days closed off somewhere to see if it developed symptoms; rabies can be carried silently for quite awhile before it activates, depending on the mammal host....

or sent the dog's head off to testing (chop off the head, refrigerate (dont freeze it kills the viruses) and off to a lab)...

and i suspect that one jab was a tetanus, and at least one was antibiotics instead of pills...

two jabs for testing?? how can they do jab for testing? blood tests maybe but not jabs.

well, whatever, it doesnt sound pleasant at all...

makes me think that i should do my rabies jab (prevention) since i work at a vet's office... it can be done once every few years since it can be checked by blood titre after that to see amount of antigens....

take care

bina

Bina that sounds a bit OTT don't you think?

Not really OTT I know lots of cases in germany in the 70,s where people were having a problem with neighbours or relatives would complain to the health authorities that the dogs were behaving strangely e.g snarling and biting for no reason, the poor pets would be confiscated, put down and heads cut off and sent to Frieburg to be tested for Rabies. Testing the brain was the only way at that time of confirming Rabies Nignoy

[Mighty Mouse]

Cutting off the dogs head is the best way to test whether the dog has rabies. Most Thailand based doctors will ask the bitten patient where is the dogs head.

I was bitten in Pattaya by a dog, which was part of a pack, as I walked around the shoreline towards Jomptien. I guess I had walked into its territory and it attacked. The owner was the wife of a fisherman who was doing his best to catch dinner at the shoreline. She took me to her hut and patched up my leg as best she could.

She was afraid that I'd report the matter to the police. Apparently if such a report is made, the dog is located and destroyed.

I required four days of expensive medical treatment on my leg. Thankfully I had taken out travel insurance.

I have never trusted large dogs since. I'll cross the road in order to avoid them.

[mikethevigoman]

The other eve I went for a quiet beer on my own, without the wife, at a local restaurant near my home, little did I know what was in store for me...

Two Thai dogs (female/male) came trotting over to me as they do, I thought nothing of it and filled my glass with one of Thailands finest ales.

To cut a long story short, the female is very friendly and often comes over to greet me and I do stroke her, she's cool. With no warning the male sunk its huge fangs into my leg! What if this was a small child? I tell all of you, this is not a pleasant experience at all!

Maybe the female was on heat and the male was jealous? Could he see me as a threat because he could smell my other dogs? I have 6 dogs.

The fangs of this animal puntured deep into my shin, 10 mm to be precise, the owner footed the hospital bill (6k Baht) and offered for me and my wife to dine for free. All told I've had near on 15 injections.

To you all, I'm sure most of you would avoid dogs that you don't know, but be aware that if treated badly or on heat, they can be extremely volatile.

My leg is a mess and the dog is no where to be seen, I think the owner has disposed of it.

I guess khaow pad maa is on the menu !

[mikethevigoman]

The thing is I didnt do anything so make this beast snap, thats what annoys me, fair enough if I had taunted it etc I would understand. I believe he could smell my other dogs and got the hump.

In my opinion dogs that do that need to be put down, would anyone agree?

I love dogs, however if hes a biter and in public ,roaming, then im afraid a death sentance is in order,.

[Globeliner]

The thing is I didnt do anything so make this beast snap, thats what annoys me, fair enough if I had taunted it etc I would understand. I believe he could smell my other dogs and got the hump.

In my opinion dogs that do that need to be put down, would anyone agree?

I love dogs, however if hes a biter and in public ,roaming, then im afraid a death sentance is in order,.

Yes I agree with that, I'm a dog lover too, anyway apart from a swollen ankle, I think it was those 1000mg antbiotics that caused the swelling, my leg is on the mend.

I will always avoid large dogs that I don't know from now on.

[mikethevigoman]

The thing is I didnt do anything so make this beast snap, thats what annoys me, fair enough if I had taunted it etc I would understand. I believe he could smell my other dogs and got the hump.

In my opinion dogs that do that need to be put down, would anyone agree?

I love dogs, however if hes a biter and in public ,roaming, then im afraid a death sentance is in order,.

Yes I agree with that, I'm a dog lover too, anyway apart from a swollen ankle, I think it was those 1000mg antbiotics that caused the swelling, my leg is on the mend.

I will always avoid large dogs that I don't know from now on.

Im avoiding all dogs off the lead from now on after a chiwawa ( i know i spelt it wrong ) went for me in lotus-tescos car park ! cheeky sod ,

[bina]

dog head sent off to lab is standard procedure for unprovoked attack by carnivore that cannot be caught and put in quarantine: dog is killed, head taken /or whole body, and refrigerated not frozen and sent ot gov. lab. we are always told not to injure the head if needing to 'control' the animal permanently.

i had a cat in the fridge because my friend was bitten by it, she killed it as it continued to attack her (done a not very pleasant way unfortunately but he was in her storage room/washing area, and she had small kids at the time and the stupid animal control people dont work on shabbat (saturday)), we double bagged it refrigerated it and trotted off next day to central lab....

fortunately, not rabies, just a very aggressive male (we have a large population of 'garbage cats' that are fed/and neutered when possible but not owned by anyone...

lesson? never go off to a 'local' bar w/o the wife.........

bina

Edited March 29, 2008 by bina

[ILovedogs]

I was recently bitten by my own dog, a giant breed, an aggressive breed, who I thought was as nice as any Golden you have ever seen, (not that all Goldens are so nice, and Nignoy's advise that ALL dogs can bite, will bite, is true and I have often argued this point ...under another TV name ...with my main point being: have a dog whose damage you can accept. That poodles commonly bite, but even when they bite you right in the face, and this has happened to me, what was the result? Almost nothing.

Now, what was the result when this "other" dog got me (and I am not stating his breed to keep people from going nuts about only his breed, but let me just say, that it is a very RARE breed, there are only a few in Thailand, not many in ANY Western country, it is not a Pit Bull or Rottie, he is not a breed that has killed people, been in the news, or anything like that, he is considered a giant breed dog, a guard breed, and other than that, I think a pretty good natured dog breed.

He didn't just get crazy for no reason, I had recently introducted a kid into the family, a toddler who is very NOT dog friendly, who beat him like a shark, on the nose, for no reason. We escaped any major problem that time. It had just gotten to be hot season, if that matters, I dont' really know. I had seen one small sign of possible aggression, but thought I maybe hurt him, so wasn't sure. This was when he refused to get out of an aircon room I had let him into, and when I shoved him, he turned his head back to me, like he was maybe thinking of growling, or challenging me in some way, but he controlled himself, got up and walked out. I only slightly noticed it. Thought, OH maybe his back hurts because you have to consider that he is a super large breed, he is technically in his senior years now, and maybe has pains he has not always had ... and I did give him a rather violent shove.

Anyway, several day after this, I let him into my TV room, for the aircon, when nobody else was home, because it was one of the first really hot days. He slept for a few hours, then got up and decided he wanted one of the kids new lego blocks. He has this problem, usually only with towel, where he will steal a towel, and not open his mouth, no matter what. I have certain tricks over the years, to get him to open, because I am always afraid he will swallow and get an intestinal blockage. I can take a steak out of his mouth, but that doesn't mean he GIVES it to me, he never would open, maybe a mistake I made. I have TRICKs to get him to open, but he will not respond to "drop" or some crap like that. That jaw is locked down!

BUt also let me say, that I never feared him, and he never showed aggression. So anyway, we are now in a small room, with other dogs, 5 dogs, most of whom are used to being in the house and try to show him , they are the boss, in the house, this is their place. He grabbed a lego inside his mouth, I thought, not sure, he can put a tennis ball in there, and close his mouth like normal, you would not know ...also this is very dangerous when you see what happened.

He sort of gets stuck in a small area between the coffee table, and TV table, etc, can't really turn, can't walk forward or back, between me and the dogs, and one of the smaller dogs starts a fight with him. I go to push the smaller dog away from him, thinking he might try to kill him, even though he has NEVER one time fought another dog at my house, and my hand got maybe 6 inches near his mouth, oh, and he did growl a tiny bit before this, but I assumed he meant it for my small dog.

This dog, I have heard growl 3 times in 3-4 years, and he reached out and bit my hand when I tried to push the other dog away, or maybe I was going to push his head away, I can't even remember, because it was so shocking, the whole thing.

BUT THE MOST SHOCKING THING TO ME, WAS THAT HE REFUSED TO LET GO OF MY HAND!!!!!

After I kicked away the other dogs who were all excited for a fight, which would have been taken out on me probably by this dog, and they were all hovering in corners of the room, and I was looking at the ground, and trying to figure out if my dog wants to kill me, or just protect his lego, and what the hel_l is going on??? Combined with Mother F'er, I have a hole through my hand, his canine teeth which is what I am stuck on are at least an inch long, and very wide.

AND HE WOULD NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH!! I was home alone, except for the other dogs. I looked at the ground, tried to be a submissive dog, looked a little at his eyes, and he kept the eye contact so I was afraid to look too much. After I realized he seemed calm and not wanting to take it further, I tried to see if I could stand up, NO, I was on my knees and my arm was behind my back. I got him to put his head on the coffee table and my arm, so we could rest, and not be moving around bit by bit, as that was quite painful.

I started thinking, shit, can the police come and shoot him? If they shoot him, will he die right away, or will he freak out and jump on my neck, bite me more? Will people come home and feak out, try to beat him off me, and I will end up mauled beyond belief? Could a vet come and inject him without causing any problems, and make him pass out? What I know about shooting dogs, and beating dogs, that isn't an instant solution, besides the fact that I love him and he is my big baby, but yes, I don't want to die, or get my face bitten off either. Let me just tell you that I have professional experience, BOTH with dogs shot by police, who DO NOT DIE instantly, know these breeds cannot be beaten off in any way, this will only cause a worse attack, don't know what will happen if a vet comes with injection and he is simply afraid, because don't really know what made him do this in the first place, etc.

Anyway, after about 15 minutes I think of a plan, cannot take it anymore, and the few things I have tried, have had no effect at all.

I decide, MAYBE, I can get to the kitchen, give him some meat, hotdog, something, and he will give up my hand. So I say, come on Mr. blank, lets go. And he follows. Before, I can see he is getting bored and tired and wants to sit down, but wont' do it. So I say, "lets go outside", and I crawl on my knees, with my hand painfully behind me and in his mouth, and we walk to the door of my TV room. But when I get to the door, I can feel that he wants to BOLT through it, but that he IS NOT going to give up my hand when he does this.

I start thinking, this is maybe a bad idea, and I dont' know what can happen to my hand, but I know it hurts a lot, and I can not even really get on my feet to follow him, if he bolts.

BUT, next to my door, is the empty food bowl and a water bowl, that still has water in it! So I pick up the water bowl, it has a handle and is easy, and put it up to his face. He has not drank for 3-4 hours which is a very long time for him. I dip it on him, then I feel his jaw relax for the first time, maybe just one cm, and then I take that opportunity, and throw the water up his nose, and in his face, and, thank God, he backed up, opened his mouth, and let go of my hand, and I shot out of the door!

Now, it has been almost 4 weeks since this happened. I kept the dog. I had to get rabies shots, even though he was vaccintated, and a bunch of other things, and to the OP who wonders what all the injections are: they are the local, to keep you from feeling pain. I had at least 5 of them and swear they hurt more than the dog bite. Especially when they are in your hand.

I have had some tendon damage, my thumb, and on my right hand, is never going to work the same it seems. I have a lot of scar tissue which is giving me a lot of strange sensations, some like pain, some like I have a piece of glue stuck to my skin or a leather glove on.

Anyway, I NEVER THOUGHT this dog would bite, in fact, he seemed so friendly, I worried, if he could actually protect my house. Not that I am totally stupid, I didn't think this when I first got him, and it was not the first dog, of the same breed that I have owned. But after seeing him for years, thought, maybe he was too nice. He was TOO socialized. He coudl not tell the difference between strangers and me. But you can see, when he wants his fricking lego, he knows who is the boss and who is not the boss, and I WAS NOT THE BOSS THAT DAY.

It worries me a lot, because of his huge head, and lips, and that he can keep something in there, you won't know about, that some person could walk up and pat him on the head, and he will take your arm off. And seriously, your arm might be OFF before you ever get to a hospital , because that dude is just NOT GOING TO OPEN HIS MOUTH. That is very, very, bad.

I cannot, just give him to some Thai people, who are the ultimate irresponsible people, who if this happens to them, will lie their ass off, to get out of the situation. Sorry if I just offended someone out there but you have to know that Thai culture is to "not talk bad" and they will just give the dog away, and not worry if some people get killed, if they know what they are doing or not, so I feel MORE obliged with this dog than I would in a Western country, also because there could be so many people here who see him as a way to make money. Because he is such a rare breed. Breed the crap out of him, then give him to a family where he will eat half the kids. Cannot do.

Also, I have to say, that anyone who thinks, "crossing your legs" is looked at as aggressive, or dominance behavior, well, I guess that may be true, but those animals, in my opinion, would NOT be considered DOMESTIC animals, and should NOT be kept in public spaces.

I think most people are clear on what we consider normal for dogs, what we consider normal for humans, and when we go to a public place, not a cage for lions, or a place with warnings for wild animals, we expect certain things, and being able to cross our legs without getting bitten would be one of them.

A restaurant partron is in no respects responsible for some dog biting them. YOu did not sign up for a wildlife adventure did you? There really should be no dogs there to bother you, and if there are dogs there, THEY should know how to relate to humans, or they should not be there. YOu should not have to have, expert skills on how to show your dominance with animals that are out of control, or have very extreme dominace issuses, just to go drink a beer there. Are you also expected to deal with the kids' sexual abuse trauma? If someone chokes while eating there, are you expected to have all the moves as an emergency worker? If there is a fire, are you expected to be a fire worker?

What kind of stupid advise is this from misguided animal lovers? I am a misguided animal lover myself, but I won't tell you you need to go in the jungle and train all the elephants, or else it is your fault they wreck the crops for some Indian people. And I dont' even have a right hand to type with at this moment, barely.

But please, some of you who think your dogs won't bite, same like Nighoy, I remember one lady on here who used to post a photo of her toddler in the face of a dog much like mine, and claim he was, for sure, 100%, harmless. I never believed that, but I DID never believe, that MY dog, under normal circumstances, would bite ME, maybe someone else, but NOT ME. And NOT OPEN his mouth AFTER??? I think many people cannot imagine how traumatic that was. And what would have happened, if my water trick did not work?

Okay, well good luck all.

[Nienke]

Well, sure enough, this is triggering a reaction from me, as I know you for about 4 years and I know this particular dog from birth (plus I know the story as you called me after it happened). From his former owner he came to me and then he went to you. He was at that time 1 1/2 years old, still merely a huge pup in behavior, and not trained as you were informed. You were wonderful, as it turned out the dog had heartworm (he never received heartworm prevention at his former owner, where he always slept outside without protection) and, despite that I offered to take the dog back, you said it was no problem you'd like to keep him and paid for the (very high) expenses of the treatment.

When he was about 2 1/2 year I saw his first obvious sign of aggression, which was to a lady on the street when we had him on the lead. You with all your pets had been stuck in your house due to the floods. The very day you were able to wade through the water you called me for help with this dog.

Walking with him was always a drag as he would pull like an idiot. There has always been the issue of him not wanting to give up stuff or resistence when he needed to go out of the aircon, as you mention in our post above. These are signs of how he looked at the hierachy, something I have pointed out to you several times over the years.

I was recently bitten by my own dog, a giant breed, an aggressive breed, who I thought was as nice as any Golden you have ever seen, (not that all Goldens are so nice, and Nignoy's advise that ALL dogs can bite, will bite, is true and I have often argued this point ...under another TV name ...with my main point being: have a dog whose damage you can accept. That poodles commonly bite, but even when they bite you right in the face, and this has happened to me, what was the result? Almost nothing.

Now, what was the result when this "other" dog got me (and I am not stating his breed to keep people from going nuts about only his breed, but let me just say, that it is a very RARE breed, there are only a few in Thailand, not many in ANY Western country, it is not a Pit Bull or Rottie, he is not a breed that has killed people, been in the news, or anything like that, he is considered a giant breed dog, a guard breed, and other than that, I think a pretty good natured dog breed.

*** Isn't that contradictive?

He didn't just get crazy for no reason, I had recently introducted a kid into the family, a toddler who is very NOT dog friendly, who beat him like a shark, on the nose, for no reason. We escaped any major problem that time. It had just gotten to be hot season, if that matters, I dont' really know. I had seen one small sign of possible aggression, but thought I maybe hurt him, so wasn't sure. This was when he refused to get out of an aircon room I had let him into, and when I shoved him, he turned his head back to me, like he was maybe thinking of growling, or challenging me in some way, but he controlled himself, got up and walked out. I only slightly noticed it. Thought, OH maybe his back hurts because you have to consider that he is a super large breed, he is technically in his senior years now, and maybe has pains he has not always had ... and I did give him a rather violent shove.

Anyway, several day after this, I let him into my TV room, for the aircon, when nobody else was home, because it was one of the first really hot days. He slept for a few hours, then got up and decided he wanted one of the kids new lego blocks. He has this problem, usually only with towel, where he will steal a towel, and not open his mouth, no matter what. I have certain tricks over the years, to get him to open, because I am always afraid he will swallow and get an intestinal blockage. I can take a steak out of his mouth, but that doesn't mean he GIVES it to me, he never would open, maybe a mistake I made. I have TRICKs to get him to open, but he will not respond to "drop" or some crap like that. That jaw is locked down!

BUt also let me say, that I never feared him, and he never showed aggression. So anyway, we are now in a small room, with other dogs, 5 dogs, most of whom are used to being in the house and try to show him , they are the boss, in the house, this is their place. He grabbed a lego inside his mouth, I thought, not sure, he can put a tennis ball in there, and close his mouth like normal, you would not know ...also this is very dangerous when you see what happened.

He sort of gets stuck in a small area between the coffee table, and TV table, etc, can't really turn, can't walk forward or back, between me and the dogs, and one of the smaller dogs starts a fight with him. I go to push the smaller dog away from him, thinking he might try to kill him, even though he has NEVER one time fought another dog at my house, and my hand got maybe 6 inches near his mouth, oh, and he did growl a tiny bit before this, but I assumed he meant it for my small dog.

This dog, I have heard growl 3 times in 3-4 years,

*** Never showed any aggression?

and he reached out and bit my hand when I tried to push the other dog away, or maybe I was going to push his head away, I can't even remember, because it was so shocking, the whole thing.

BUT THE MOST SHOCKING THING TO ME, WAS THAT HE REFUSED TO LET GO OF MY HAND!!!!!

After I kicked away the other dogs who were all excited for a fight, which would have been taken out on me probably by this dog, and they were all hovering in corners of the room, and I was looking at the ground, and trying to figure out if my dog wants to kill me, or just protect his lego, and what the hel_l is going on??? Combined with Mother F'er, I have a hole through my hand, his canine teeth which is what I am stuck on are at least an inch long, and very wide.

AND HE WOULD NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH!! I was home alone, except for the other dogs. I looked at the ground, tried to be a submissive dog, looked a little at his eyes, and he kept the eye contact so I was afraid to look too much. After I realized he seemed calm and not wanting to take it further, I tried to see if I could stand up, NO, I was on my knees and my arm was behind my back. I got him to put his head on the coffee table and my arm, so we could rest, and not be moving around bit by bit, as that was quite painful.

I started thinking, shit, can the police come and shoot him? If they shoot him, will he die right away, or will he freak out and jump on my neck, bite me more? Will people come home and feak out, try to beat him off me, and I will end up mauled beyond belief? Could a vet come and inject him without causing any problems, and make him pass out? What I know about shooting dogs, and beating dogs, that isn't an instant solution, besides the fact that I love him and he is my big baby, but yes, I don't want to die, or get my face bitten off either. Let me just tell you that I have professional experience, BOTH with dogs shot by police, who DO NOT DIE instantly, know these breeds cannot be beaten off in any way, this will only cause a worse attack, don't know what will happen if a vet comes with injection and he is simply afraid, because don't really know what made him do this in the first place, etc.

Anyway, after about 15 minutes I think of a plan, cannot take it anymore, and the few things I have tried, have had no effect at all.

I decide, MAYBE, I can get to the kitchen, give him some meat, hotdog, something, and he will give up my hand. So I say, come on Mr. blank, lets go. And he follows. Before, I can see he is getting bored and tired and wants to sit down, but wont' do it. So I say, "lets go outside", and I crawl on my knees, with my hand painfully behind me and in his mouth, and we walk to the door of my TV room. But when I get to the door, I can feel that he wants to BOLT through it, but that he IS NOT going to give up my hand when he does this.

I start thinking, this is maybe a bad idea, and I dont' know what can happen to my hand, but I know it hurts a lot, and I can not even really get on my feet to follow him, if he bolts.

BUT, next to my door, is the empty food bowl and a water bowl, that still has water in it! So I pick up the water bowl, it has a handle and is easy, and put it up to his face. He has not drank for 3-4 hours which is a very long time for him. I dip it on him, then I feel his jaw relax for the first time, maybe just one cm, and then I take that opportunity, and throw the water up his nose, and in his face, and, thank God, he backed up, opened his mouth, and let go of my hand, and I shot out of the door!

Now, it has been almost 4 weeks since this happened. I kept the dog. I had to get rabies shots, even though he was vaccintated, and a bunch of other things, and to the OP who wonders what all the injections are: they are the local, to keep you from feeling pain. I had at least 5 of them and swear they hurt more than the dog bite. Especially when they are in your hand.

I have had some tendon damage, my thumb, and on my right hand, is never going to work the same it seems. I have a lot of scar tissue which is giving me a lot of strange sensations, some like pain, some like I have a piece of glue stuck to my skin or a leather glove on.

Anyway, I NEVER THOUGHT this dog would bite, in fact, he seemed so friendly, I worried, if he could actually protect my house. Not that I am totally stupid, I didn't think this when I first got him, and it was not the first dog, of the same breed that I have owned. But after seeing him for years, thought, maybe he was too nice. He was TOO socialized. He coudl not tell the difference between strangers and me. But you can see, when he wants his fricking lego, he knows who is the boss and who is not the boss, and I WAS NOT THE BOSS THAT DAY.

It worries me a lot, because of his huge head, and lips, and that he can keep something in there, you won't know about, that some person could walk up and pat him on the head, and he will take your arm off. And seriously, your arm might be OFF before you ever get to a hospital , because that dude is just NOT GOING TO OPEN HIS MOUTH. That is very, very, bad.

I cannot, just give him to some Thai people, who are the ultimate irresponsible people, who if this happens to them, will lie their ass off, to get out of the situation. Sorry if I just offended someone out there but you have to know that Thai culture is to "not talk bad" and they will just give the dog away, and not worry if some people get killed, if they know what they are doing or not, so I feel MORE obliged with this dog than I would in a Western country, also because there could be so many people here who see him as a way to make money. Because he is such a rare breed. Breed the crap out of him, then give him to a family where he will eat half the kids. Cannot do.Your dog is not an aggressive dog, he won't 'eat half the kids' or not even just go for someone's throat, but there are certainly hierarchy issues. There is a very high chance that this problem can be solved if you would put time and effort in behavior modification.

Also, I have to say, that anyone who thinks, "crossing your legs" is looked at as aggressive, or dominance behavior, well, I guess that may be true, but those animals, in my opinion, would NOT be considered DOMESTIC animals, and should NOT be kept in public spaces. Truely domesticated, but never educated or trained by people

I think most people are clear on what we consider normal for dogs, what we consider normal for humans, and when we go to a public place, not a cage for lions, or a place with warnings for wild animals, we expect certain things, and being able to cross our legs without getting bitten would be one of them. Yep, but what is 'normal' to humans is not always 'normal' in the dog's mind, that has to be taught to the dog.

A restaurant partron is in no respects responsible for some dog biting them. YOu did not sign up for a wildlife adventure did you? There really should be no dogs there to bother you, and if there are dogs there, THEY should know how to relate to humans, or they should not be there. YOu should not have to have, expert skills on how to show your dominance with animals that are out of control, or have very extreme dominace issuses, just to go drink a beer there. Are you also expected to deal with the kids' sexual abuse trauma? If someone chokes while eating there, are you expected to have all the moves as an emergency worker? If there is a fire, are you expected to be a fire worker?

What kind of stupid advise is this from misguided animal lovers?What do you mean by that? What advice? I am a misguided animal lover myself, but I won't tell you you need to go in the jungle and train all the elephants, or else it is your fault they wreck the crops for some Indian people. And I dont' even have a right hand to type with at this moment, barely.

But please, some of you who think your dogs won't bite, same like Nighoy, I remember one lady on here who used to post a photo of her toddler in the face of a dog much like mine, and claim he was, for sure, 100%, harmless. Although, I agree that that can be risky, from the lady's post I always got the impression that she does not have hierachy issues with her dogs. I never believed that, but I DID never believe, that MY dog, under normal circumstances, would bite ME, maybe someone else, but NOT ME. And NOT OPEN his mouth AFTER??? I think many people cannot imagine how traumatic that was. And what would have happened, if my water trick did not work?I'm afraid that there are quite some people out there who have said the same thing: they never believed that their own dog would ever bite them. But, then when you ask further more too often you find out that there already have been many times before that the dog showed un-acceptable dominant behavior.

And sure enough, when your own dog bites you it is a very shocking experience.

Nienke

Okay, well good luck all.

[elfe]

just as an aside, it seems the dog has health issues (heart?) and wants to stay in cool place.

if it was my dog i would just give him his beloved towel or whatever and not force him to give away anything he doesn't want to give. and prevent that he gets anything that he shouldn't. well, easy said, i know.

i got only one dog (out of over 70 here) which would not give a new bone to me. when i took him in 4 years ago he was already about 5 yrs old, i don't know anything about his story before that. he was extremely food aggressive the first months but is no problem anymore since, only some growling now and then to other dogs when he got a bone. but i would never take away his bone, i'm not sure if he would bite me if i forced it. and there is no reason for me to take it. for the other dogs, none of them would ever growl at me or even bite. if a new taken in dog tried that i would try to submiss him. if gets more aggressive by that i would just leave it for now and ingore it. and treat it nice and not try to challenge it. after a while the dog builds up trust and these situation can be handled easy and the dog would be submissive. only had it with 3 dogs of all my dogs that they tried to stand up against me and due to former owners who did not treat the dog in a stable manner. dogs without former owners (strays) usually don't have any of these behaviours...

if your dog really wanted to bite you, your hand would be worse now...

[ILovedogs]

Nienke,

Did I mention you in my post?

So why did you feel the need to mention me back, and reply to me specifically? For one thing, I kept the dog who is the subject here private, and did not mention his name or breed, or any details about myself, to protect our ID. And to not put bad PR out there, even on a small scale, about one particular breed.

I did not even mention that I adopted him from anyone. And I most certainly do not remember any offer to take him back once it was discovered he had heartworm, nor would I have even considered it. I remember you saying you had no idea he had it, and that was the end of the discussion. I was sad thinking he might die during treatment, worried he wasn't getting the best treatment, but not worried about the money I had to spend to treat it.

Given my past experience with dogs, it was really not unusual at all, for me to inherit all the sick dogs, that is what I always did, no big deal. And I think you have seen this particular dog, do very well with me, at least in this area.

I do happen to think that ANY dog expert, would NEED to VIEW the dog and owner in their regular life, before they can make a judgement about anything, who is in charge, who is not, to what extent, etc. You cannot possibly say that this woman who we both know we are talking about, is a pack leader, or is not, or is 50% of the time, or whatever, just from her friking emails, that is absolutely absurd!!! The fact that she has photos posted of her 3 year old or 2 year old kid, nose to nose, with this dog, probably means she doesn't have a clue what she is doing, and you know it!

Since she cannot control the mind of her kid, and IF she knows pack behavior, and has a potentially deadly dog like this, I would think, she would not let it within 10 feet of her kid, and know that this eye-to-eye stuff is very risky. But just like I thought, MY DOG won't BITE ME OVER a GOD dam_n LEGO, she is using human thinking, and thinking her dog knows, this kid means everything to her, and he would never bite him in the face!! Where else would the dog bite him??

To the dog, this is just another dog, and a low level dog, who needs, correction, as you like to put it. And he is certainly going to correct this little puppy when the time comes. And he doesn't care about plastic surgery or long term damage to your face! And some breeds, after I researched it, are more inclined to what some people call "impluse aggression" and lots of other names for aggression, but the protection of property came pretty high on the list of the number one reasons for bites. AND CERTAIN BREEDS DON'T LET GO WHEN THEY BITE, AND THOSE BREEDS ARE NOT POODLES, and many of them HAVE BEEN SHOT TO GET THEM TO LET GO.

So it would be an extra benefit to make sure, some of these breeds, never bite us. However, I am not blaming, any of this on you. But you should know this, and not only be on the dog's side, in spite of your business and love for animals. If there is any doubt at all, the peole should get the benefit of the doubt, even though people are usually responsible for training their dogs wrong, or NOT training them correctly, whatever. Some guy going to a restaurant, should not have to worry about dogs at all in the equation.

I am the the poster person for animal lovers, animal activists, and have not just had pets to prove this, have actually DONE things, have made my life uncomfortable in order to help animals, have studied, have devoted large portions of my life to them, have devoted large portions of my income to them, got into business to help them, not just to help myself be around what I liked. That doesn't mean that anything and everything is acceptable to me. I happen to think I missed some signs, and should have been more aware of what was going on, but that doesn't mean I deserved this bite and the terrible fear that went along with it.

However, I did NOT give my dog away, in spite of EVERY SINGLE PERSON who thinks I am an idiot that I DID NOT. I am working on him, and hope it will never happen again of course. But I also am responsible for a toddler who I cannot completely control, and we will see what happens. Making myself his leader, doesn't mean she won't sneak out of the door, decide to punch him in the nose again, and he will make his power known!

But I was really shocked that you felt that the OP should somehow feel like he did something wrong when it was not even his dogs, he was just in a public space, and as well it was my fault I got bitten, it can never be the dog's fault. Sometimes, shit just happens, animals are not 100% predicatable, and actually blaming the human, who is still doing the things he always did, the same way, but now my 200 pounds dog doesn't agree, what can I really do about it? Okay, now I got the message, I will change.

Same like when my horse decided he didn't want me on his back anymore, I had limited options. My skills didn't match his powers to throw me, kill me, and he won the war. Then I got a new horse. Everyone said, you can't win that battle so I didn't try, one ride in the abmulance, taped to a board, was enough for me!

Anyway, this message was not about you or your dog, so I don't really know why you got so upset.

[ILovedogs]

Hi elfe,

I have heard about you and that you rescue a lot of animals and seen you on the web from time to time. I am sure you have lots of experience with dogs, and probably other animals, same like me, but large breed dogs were not my special area, nor were aggressive breeds.

My dog did growl at me, and only a few times in 3-4 years, didn't even hear him growl at other dogs, or all of the times combined, count to be 3-4 times. Other dogs and me. But, for example, one time he did growl at me, more than 2 years ago, just after he had been boarded for 3 months (because I was in a flood, and then had to go back to my home country, came back, got a new house), and the first day he came back, he growled at me, over not wanting to give me back a toy.

Same thing he bite me over. I thought about it. Thought well, maybe I should not let him be the boss here, BUT if he is really serious, he might bite my face off, and that would be bad, he has been living in a pack of dogs sort of, so maybe he is used to being the boss, and if I am the loser, well, so I sort of tried to stand my ground but not force the issue. That is one of the times I remember him growling for about 5 seconds.

That was the only time he growled at me for sure, until the time he bite me and I am not sure who the small growl was for that time. But it was a very small thing. I am used to small breed dogs, who growl and bark their heads off, over nothing, all day long, so a 5 second gowl, once a year, doesn't really get my attention. It will from now on.

But you know Elfe, what you say, about dogs getting trust and all, that is really not dog thinking, that is human thinking, and that is why I have a bite now. Dogs don't really work like that, they work on who has the power, not years of trust like we like to think. We see them as loving, loyal beings, and they are, but not in the same way we want to think, it can change in a minute, based on who they think has the power. And I guess you canot blame a big powerful guy trying to get the power from time to time, that would be the natural order of things, to challenge the leader once in a while, until they finally fall. I guess, but who knows?

[elfe]

hi ilovedogs,

as i can understand your thinking, i don't agree 100%. i don't think that in dogs it is all about hierarchy and dominating. there is much more to the dogs psyche and interactions. i could write a lot about it but am almost in bed now already

all my 75 dogs live together with me without cages day in day out, many of them in my bedroom every night. they live in a pack but honestly i cannot see the dominating hierarchy form too much.

building trust and changing habits, fears, aggressions in other ways than showing who is the boss is possible and it worked well here in many cases and since many years. of course you have to have control and be the boss, but you don't have to fight for it to be accepted by the dog as such, usually dogs will admire you like their god anyway if you treat them right.

i've got large dogs as well, one of them a great dane which would growl if he is hurt, but he never bit any dog (only in defense he would hold the other one down by its neck until it gives in) or person. he is the lovliest, slobberish and most affectionate dog you can ever meet, but i would not guarantee that he or any other of my dogs would never ever bite anyone, they are their own personalities which can also change out of many reasons and situations.

i'm by far no expert nor would i want to be one, i'm just someone who lives happily with her dogs.

i hope you will come to terms with your dog, and would be interested what you will do if he would growl at you again.

[ILovedogs]

Well, let's just say that if he growls at me again, I won't be putting my hand anywhere near his head, and now, as it is, I check him to see if I can tell if he is holding anything secrectly in his mouth, if he has some reason to protect something when I step over him, I mostly make him get up and move, rather than stepping over him, etc.

I used to think the same way as you Elfe, although I never had a pack as big as you. But what I am learning, is that with maybe just certain breeds, you have to see small things as important communications, because they talk small. The dog who bite me, seems to be probably the nicest and most easy dog I have ever had, other than slinging spit everywhere. And I had a dog of the same breed before, but raised that dog from a puppy and she was very afraid of me, just my voice, and this dog has never shown any fear of me, no matter what I do. (Not that I beat them up or anything, but if I just yelled, she would bolt outside, and be afraid to enter the house, only put her head in dog door, where small dogs, can yell all day long, not make a difference at all.)

But this dog, have never found one thing that he is afraid of, other than firecrackers, which I don't do to him. It just seems to be my good luck that he follows what I want most of the time. Or, okay, he loves me.

[ILovedogs]

Oh, I should probably say that I am also using every opportunity I have to show him that I am the boss, that this is my door, my house, my gate, my bowl, whatever, that he has to work a little to get his food, that he has to be showing the perfect behavior to get affection, etc.

As well as generally protecting myself, like waiting until he shows total submission, when I walk by, just so I know he doesn't have a toy, and is going to reach out and bite my leg, or something .. I am a little nervous about that.

But in general, he has been great and doing everything he should be doing.

[elfe]

i never try to show my dogs at every occasion that i'm the boss. i have the feeling that you can also overdo it and a dog would then start to question it, as your dog does. and you were not successful with it, as the result shows. even that he 'ususally does what he should do' maybe only shows his friendly temper. if i can step over a dog i don't tell it to move, it is not necessary. i don't have to show my dogs all the time that this is all mine and they have no say. as you described with your dog you raised from puppy, dogs have a very good sense about what you want from them and what not. same here, even my very young puppies know the difference from my voice, if i'm happy and speak in a nice voice they come running tailwagging, if my voice sounds angry they stay away or back off. without any punishment ever, they just understand.

you don't write anything about how you play with your dog, how you make him feel happy, what you do to have 'quality time' with him. this is the main important thing to get a dog to love you and thus want to obey you.

but maybe you should ask a dog trainer or behaviourist about the issues with your dog as you are already afraid of it and 'nervous', which is understandable after the incident.

Edited April 10, 2008 by elfe