Inquiring Minds.....tone On ประโยค

[kokesaat]

I know there are plenty of exceptions to the tone rules, but was wondering what makes the second syllable of ประโยค or ประโยขพ์ a low tone rather than a falling tone. If the two words are exceptions to the rules, no further explanation is necessary.

Now that I've got the tones down pat, words like these are what drive me up the wall..........and I'm always looking for shortcuts or ways to remember how to spell/say a word (sort of like I was taught how to spell 'separate' a gazillion years ago.......sep 'a rat' e (as in the mouse)) Stupid maybe, but I've never misspelled the word since someone told me that trick. Although I can't get my Thai teacher to give me any stupid hints like that, I'm sure the Thais have silly ways to remember weird spellings/tones.

Always appreciate the responses.

[DavidHouston]

Don't fret; these words are just subsets of the general rule that you have learned so well. In these cases the "ประ" is treated as if it were an initial midclass consonant "ป" leading a low class. The reasons for this are likely word origin. See the RID online for:

"ประโยค [ปฺระโหฺยก] . . . ป. ปโยค" and "ประโยชน์ [ปฺระโหฺยด] . . . ป. ปโยชน"

Also, for more information on this topic you may wish to refer to: http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster_tone

Other words displaying the same characteristics are "ประมาท" and "ประวัติ"

Good luck!

[Richard W]

I know there are plenty of exceptions to the tone rules, but was wondering what makes the second syllable of ประโยค or ประโยขพ์ a low tone rather than a falling tone. If the two words are exceptions to the rules, no further explanation is necessary.

The linguists have a word for this, 'rightward register spreading'. It occurs in Mon, Thai, Khmer and Cham. Essentially the tone class of the preceding syllable is applied to the tone of the second syllable. It cannot always be predicted from the spelling, for we have ตนุ [L]ta[H]nu 'self, I' and ตนุ [L]ta[L]nu 'green turtle'. The requirements for the phenomenon to occur are:

• The two syllables are in the same metrical foot, i.e. the second syllable is stressed and the first is not.
  
• The first syllable starts with an oral stop or fricative. (Note that this includes the glottal stop, as in องุ่น [L]a[L]ngun 'grape'.)
  
• The second syllable starts with a resonant (i.e one of ง ญ ณ น ม ย ร ล ว ฬ). I think there are no examples with ญ, ณ or ฬ.
  
• The rime of the first syllable is the implicit vowel /a/ or sara am ( ำ), or the first syllable is ประ.
  

If these requirements are met, and the vowel of the second syllablle , at least in part, written before the first syllable, the phenomenon will definitely occur. Arguably we then have a single syllable which Thais cannot pronounce without inserting a vowel.

The longer the word, the less likely the phenomenon.

It seems that if the first syllable ends in sara am, the phenomenon only occurs if it seems to derive from a word without the infix, as in ตำรวจ [M]tam[L]ruat from ตรวจ [M]truat, though the phonetically regular derivative is ดำรวจ [M]dam[L]ruat. Another way of looking at is that if there is not an obvious derivation and the phenomenon occurs, ห will be inerted in the spelling, as in สำหรับ.

[Richard W]

Also, for more information on this topic you may wish to refer to: http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster_tone

A nice article! However, Glenn and I disagree on the condition for the first consonant in the cluster to determine tone. He says that the first determines tone if the second is a low class consonant - I propose the more restrictive rule that the first determines tone if the second is a resonant.

For 'resonant' I can offer เฉพาะ and เผชิน (pronounced ผะ-เชิน). Are there any examples that argue for the correct rule saying being 'low class' rather than resonant? I think we need to stick to examples with vowels that are at least partially preposed, unless someone can offer a good way of deciding the orthographic syllabification. For example, I could also offer ขทิง, but I don't see how to determine its validity as an example.

[kriswillems]

็Hi Richard,

Here are some examples that you can use in your discussion with Glen:

สภา low-mid

สภาพ low-falling

ทาสทาน falling - low - mid

They seem to confirm what you thought. The first letter of the second syllable needs to be a low class resonant.

To come back to the subject:

There are many examples where ประ has no influence on the tone of the second syllable:

ประหลาด : here you NEED the ห to give the second syllable a low tone!

ประหวัด : NEED the ห to give the second syllable a low tone!

ประณต : the second syllable has high tone

ประพัด : the second syllable has high tone

ประพจน์ : the second syllable has high tone

I don't know if there really is a system here. Looks to me it's safer to remember the exceptions.

[Richard W]

็There are many examples where ประ has no influence on the tone of the second syllable:

ประหลาด : here you NEED the ห to give the second syllable a low tone!

ประหวัด : NEED the ห to give the second syllable a low tone!

ประณต : the second syllable has high tone

ประพัด : the second syllable has high tone

ประพจน์ : the second syllable has high tone

I don't know if there really is a system here. Looks to me it's safer to remember the exceptions.

The general rule seems to be that the phenomenon only applies to Indic loanwords if Thai has introduced a vowel, but this is complicated by the Khmer tendency to drop the vowel if it was already present. An Indic loan starting with ส needs three syllables for the rule to be safely applicable to the first two syllables.

An example of this rule in application seems to be the word for 'vowel' - Pali สร sara, Khmer สฺร or สฺระ (not sure how to transliterate ស្រៈ) sraq, Thai สระ [L]sa[L]ra.

Certainly I don't expect a rule that will usefully explain why Sanskrit samudra should give สมุทร [L]sa[L]mut but samartha give สมรรถ [L]sa[H]mat.

For ประ it seems to be that the application of the phenomenon is the exception, so one has to remember the 4 non-rare words (ประมาท, ประโยค, ประโยชน์ and ประวัติ) in which the phenomenon occurs. Thai spelling seems to follow this principle - ประหวัด v. ประวัติ with the same tones, but the only deviation from the etymological spelling of Indic words that it allows for the purpose of showing tone is the addition of tone marks. I had been going to suggest that the phenomenon did not occur if the second consonant was ณ, but then I remembered Pali-derived ขณะ [L]kha[L]na.

I wrote

If these requirements are met, and the vowel of the second syllablle , at least in part, written before the first syllable, the phenomenon will definitely occur.

but there is an exception! While this tone transference applies to เสน่ห์ [L]sa[L]nee and เสน่หา [L]sa[L]nee[R]haa, it does not apply to เสนหา [L]sa[M]nee[R]haa. Tone transference also fails for the prefix form เสนห- [L]sa[M]nee[L]ha.

[kriswillems]

The general rule seems to be that the phenomenon only applies to Indic loanwords if Thai has introduced a vowel, but this is complicated by the Khmer tendency to drop the vowel if it was already present. An Indic loan starting with ส needs three syllables for the rule to be safely applicable to the first two syllables.

If though there was no "tone inheritance" was that ภ is not a resonant.

สภา low-mid

สภาพ low-falling

But if I understand correctly, there's another reason.

สร low-low

Here ร is a resonant, so the second syllable inherits the tone from the consonant of the first syllable.

[Richard W]

The general rule seems to be that the phenomenon only applies to Indic loanwords if Thai has introduced a vowel, but this is complicated by the Khmer tendency to drop the vowel if it was already present. An Indic loan starting with ส needs three syllables for the rule to be safely applicable to the first two syllables.

But if I understand correctly, there's another reason.

สร low-low

Here ร is a resonant, so the second syllable inherits the tone from the consonant of the first syllable.

But then explain:

สมรรถ (สะ-มัด) from Pali & Sanskrit

สมัช (สะ-มัด) from Pali

สราญ (สะ-ราน)

สโรช (สะ-โรด) from Sanskrit

When explaining the last one, bear in mind

อเนก (อะ-เหฺนก) from Pali & Sanskrit.

[kriswillems]

The general rule seems to be that the phenomenon only applies to Indic loanwords if Thai has introduced a vowel, but this is complicated by the Khmer tendency to drop the vowel if it was already present. An Indic loan starting with ส needs three syllables for the rule to be safely applicable to the first two syllables.

But if I understand correctly, there's another reason.

สร low-low

Here ร is a resonant, so the second syllable inherits the tone from the consonant of the first syllable.

But then explain:

สมรรถ (สะ-มัด) from Pali & Sanskrit

สมัช (สะ-มัด) from Pali

สราญ (สะ-ราน)

สโรช (สะ-โรด) from Sanskrit

When explaining the last one, bear in mind

อเนก (อะ-เหฺนก) from Pali & Sanskrit.

ok, understand now.

[kokesaat]

For Richard W: I can live with four exceptions......."For ประ it seems to be that the application of the phenomenon is the exception, so one has to remember the 4 non-rare words (ประมาท, ประโยค, ประโยชน์ and ประวัติ) in which the phenomenon occurs. "

Thanks for the tip