The Opposite Of เกรงใจ

[ElZorro]

In another post, I asked about the opposite of เกรงใจ. This is a very difficult word to translate to English, because there isn't a single word that captures all that's expressed in it. I looked in thai2english for inconsiderate and I found these thai words:

พลั้งเผลอ pláng-plĕr be careless ; be negligent ; be incautious ; be inconsiderate ; be thoughtless

ใจจืด jai jèut be indifferent ; be inconsiderate ; be insensate ; be unfeeling ; be unsympathetic; indifferent ; callous ; unfeeling ; unsympathetic ; heartless ; unkind ; harsh ; inconsiderate ; insensate

ใจจืดใจดำ jai jèut jai dam be unsympathetic ; be callous ; be unfeeling ; be indifferent ; be inconsiderate ; be insensate; unsympathetic ; callous ; unfeeling ; heartless ; unkind ; harsh ; inconsiderate ; insensate

ไม่ไว้หน้าใคร mâi wái nâa krai have no respect ; be inconsiderate

แล้งน้ำใจ láeng nám jai be without kindness ; treat someone ungenerously/unkindly ; not be helpful or considerate

I wasn't familiar with any of them; what I would have used to express the opposite of เกรงใจ would have been something like ไม่มีน้ำใจ, ใจดำ or ไม่เกรงใจ. There seems to be a big number of connotations to all of these new words, so maybe some of the experts can explain the different meanings and uses of them.

[DavidHouston]

แล้งน้ำใจ láeng nám jai be without kindness ; treat someone ungenerously/unkindly ; not be helpful or considerate

I am certainly no expert, but here is an observation. Lexitron has the following entry:

แล้งน้ำใจ [V] be without kindness; treat someone ungenerously/unkindly; not be helpful or considerate

Def. ไม่มีน้ำใจ.

Sample:การช่วยเหลือผู้ประสบภัยน้ำท่วมแสดงให้เห็นว่าคนไทยยังไม่แล้งน้ำใจ

Note one of the words for "kindness", "น้ำใจ [N] kindness; spirit; heart; thoughtfulness" and the use of the common word "น้ำ". Its opposite, to be cruel or unkind uses the word "แล้ง [N] drought", carrying through the metaphor associated with "water". I wonder if the human impulse here is the same as that which produced "the milk of human kindness" in English. Or, how about the metaphor, "desiccated soul".

Finally, look at the sample sentence: "การช่วยเหลือผู้ประสบภัยน้ำท่วมแสดงให้เห็นว่าคนไทยยังไม่แล้งน้ำใจ"

"The assistance provided to the victims of the flood disaster shows that Thaip people are not without kindness and compassion." Isn't it interesting that the drafter of the Lexitron example chose to use a concrete example using water in the context of flooding to illustrate the concepts of "น้ำใจ" and its opposite, "แล้ง" drought or the absence of water.

Great post; thanks.

Edited March 21, 2008 by DavidHouston

[ElZorro]

Note one of the words for "kindness", "น้ำใจ [N] kindness; spirit; heart; thoughtfulness" and the use of the common word "น้ำ". Its opposite, to be cruel or unkind uses the word "แล้ง [N] drought", carrying through the metaphor associated with "water". I wonder if the human impulse here is the same as that which produced "the milk of human kindness" in English. Or, how about the metaphor, "desiccated soul".

Excellent analysis David. I just want to add that in English the image is usually more about the hard/soft opposition, as in "a heart of stone", "tender love", but the similarity with wet/dry is easy to see.

[mangkorn]

In everyday speech, perhaps ไม่มีมารยาท gets that point across pretty directly.

Also, not to pick too many nits - that Lexitron play on words was clever - but I think that the น้ำ in น้ำใจ doesn't necessarily mean "water/liquid" in a literal sense. It is a prefix used sometimes to emphasize the essential idea of what is being referred to (and in that sense, water is as essential as it gets; hence the probable origin.) But I have been told that น้ำใจ is one of several examples of concept words wherein the two elements are not meant to be regarded separately.

Hmm, that may be nitpicky, after all. I apologize if it is.

[kriswillems]

In everyday speech, perhaps ไม่มีมารยาท gets that point across pretty directly.

Also, not to pick too many nits - that Lexitron play on words was clever - but I think that the น้ำ in น้ำใจ doesn't necessarily mean "water/liquid" in a literal sense. It is a prefix used sometimes to emphasize the essential idea of what is being referred to (and in that sense, water is as essential as it gets; hence the probable origin.) But I have been told that น้ำใจ is one of several examples of concept words wherein the two elements are not meant to be regarded separately.

Hmm, that may be nitpicky, after all. I apologize if it is.

ไม่มีน้ำใจ and ไม่มีมารยาท are not the same.

มารยาท is about good manners, etiquette

น้ำใจ is about being considerate or generous, thoughtfulness

Somebody that doesn't have good manners, for instance because he never got a good education, can still be generous or thoughtful.

Edited March 22, 2008 by kriswillems

[meadish_sweetball]

There's another simple way of saying it:

ไม่รู้จักเกรงใจ which in my experience does not quite mean what it says literally; it is more like 'doesn't understand the meaning of the word เกรงใจ' i.e. doesnt have the sense (or doesnt care about) to be considerate towards others', 'doesn't have the sense (doesn't care about) not to bother others with unreasonable requests' and similar...

[ElZorro]

What about พลั้งเผลอ? is anyone familiar with it? It's the first time I come across this word. From the Lexitron definition, it doesn't seem to have the same sense of ไม่รู้จักเกรงใจ. I'm not sure I've understood the sample sentence:

แค่เธอพลั้งเผลอไปครั้งเดียวก็อาจติดโรคได้

She's just so careless; she can go just once and catch a disease.

[DavidHouston]

The word "เกรงใจ" as we know is one of the most culturally-linked terms in all of the Thai langauge. We struggle to understand and to use the word properly, as well as acting in a way which reflects the principle. Some of us reject the social notion of เกรงใจ as undemocratic or socially obsolete. On the other hand, เกรงใจ is still a powerful notion of social interaction whether at a family level; in business environments; or even at levels of national politics.

Here, at random, are some excerpts from contemporary writing which employ the term "เกรงใจ". Please provide any thoughts you have on the correct rendering of "เกรงใจ" in these contexts, as well as any corrections of the rest of the translation. Thank you for your assistance:

. . . ยังไม่นับรวมแม่ทัพ นายกอง ทั้งฝ่ายทหาร ตำรวจ ที่ขนกำลังลงไปเป็นกองทัพ เพื่อสืบข่าว ไล่ล่าหาตัวคนร้าย กลเม็ดเด็ดพรายถูกงัดขึ้นมาใช้แบบไม่มีใครเกรงใจใคร ต่างฝ่ายต่างทำ ที่สำคัญคือต่างคนต่างคิดว่าตัวเองเดินมาถูกทาง

. . . this does not even consider the various commanders of both the military and the police who can bring their forces to bear to determine what occurred, to pursue the terrorists. (They can employ) various strategies and techniques in a manner that defers to no one and each faction can employ their own methods. What is important is that each (commander) believes that he alone is following the correct path.

. . . ไม่เกรงใจหน้าอินทร์หน้าพรหม . . .

. . . I will not bow to the powers that be . . .

นายกฯ คนใหม่จึงจะต้องเป็นคนที่แข็ง ซึ่งคณะปฏิรูปฯ เกรงใจ เพราะเป็นรุ่นพี่ และเป็นอดีตผู้บังคับบัญชา

The new prime minister must be a strong person whom the Council for Administrative Reform holds in high regard due to the fact that (the prime minister) is a senior (in military rank) and because his is a former (military) commander.

ถ้าไม่รู้ความจริงกันอย่างนี้อาจจะถึงต้องเด็ดหัวกัน บางทีบ้านเรายังมีความเกรงใจรักษาน้ำใจกันมากเกินไปแล้วก็ช่วยปกป้องกัน จนไม่รู้ว่าความจริงเป็นอย่างไรแล้ว

If the two do not know the truth about each other, they will end up killing each other. Sometimes (on the other hand) in our environment we are too careful not to hurt each other's feelings and we try to protect one another. We do this to such an extent that we never know what is really true.

Edited March 23, 2008 by DavidHouston

[DavidHouston]

What about พลั้งเผลอ? is anyone familiar with it? It's the first time I come across this word. From the Lexitron definition, it doesn't seem to have the same sense of ไม่รู้จักเกรงใจ. I'm not sure I've understood the sample sentence:

แค่เธอพลั้งเผลอไปครั้งเดียวก็อาจติดโรคได้

She's just so careless; she can go just once and catch a disease.

Perhaps the definition of พลั้งเผลอ in the RID is instructive: พลั้งเผลอ [เผฺลอ] ว. ผิดพลาดเพราะหลงลืมไปชั่วขณะ. "commiting an error due to momentary forgetfulness, omission or neglect". It is the last element "ชั่วขณะ" which Lexitron has as " ชั่วขณะ [ADV] for a moment; for a time; for a while; temporarily Syn. ชั่วครู่, ชั่วคราว, ชั่วประเดี๋ยว, ครู่เดียว Def. ช่วงเวลาสั้นๆ" which seems to give the subject term is particular character withing the larger context of "error".

Maybe the Lexitron example is discussing STD?

[meadish_sweetball]

Thank you for taking the time to post that David, I believe you must be right about STD.

แค่เธอพลั้งเผลอไปครั้งเดียวก็อาจติดโรคได้

Neglect it just once [i.e. using a condom] and you may catch a disease.

The ไป here does not have the literal meaning of 'go' that it takes when acting as the main verb.

In this case it modifies พลั้งเผลอ and I think it can be interpreted in two ways... please feel free to correct or disagree, as my reasoning is based on feeling rather than authority or fact.

1. as 'too', i.e. 'be too careless'. Cf. แพงไป

2. Closer to the core meaning of ไป, showing direction, suggesting 'stepping out of what is normal' or 'letting oneself go'. Cf. ปล่อยไป

As I wrote the second example I started to doubt whether this is a valid analysis or not. What do those of you who feel shades of meaning better than I think about it? Is only 1. correct and 2. is just some vague false notion I have?

[mangkorn]

In everyday speech, perhaps ไม่มีมารยาท gets that point across pretty directly.

Also, not to pick too many nits - that Lexitron play on words was clever - but I think that the น้ำ in น้ำใจ doesn't necessarily mean "water/liquid" in a literal sense. It is a prefix used sometimes to emphasize the essential idea of what is being referred to (and in that sense, water is as essential as it gets; hence the probable origin.) But I have been told that น้ำใจ is one of several examples of concept words wherein the two elements are not meant to be regarded separately.

Hmm, that may be nitpicky, after all. I apologize if it is.

ไม่มีน้ำใจ and ไม่มีมารยาท are not the same.

มารยาท is about good manners, etiquette

น้ำใจ is about being considerate or generous, thoughtfulness

Somebody that doesn't have good manners, for instance because he never got a good education, can still be generous or thoughtful.

Sorry Kris, but it seems that you and I were talking about two different things - which was probably my fault for not specifying the first part of my initial post: I meant ไม่มีมารยาท could be a way to express the "opposite of" เกรงใจ (as per the OP), not ไม่มีน้ำใจ

[bannork]

. . . ยังไม่นับรวมแม่ทัพ นายกอง ทั้งฝ่ายทหาร ตำรวจ ที่ขนกำลังลงไปเป็นกองทัพ เพื่อสืบข่าว ไล่ล่าหาตัวคนร้าย กลเม็ดเด็ดพรายถูกงัดขึ้นมาใช้แบบไม่มีใครเกรงใจใคร ต่างฝ่ายต่างทำ ที่สำคัญคือต่างคนต่างคิดว่าตัวเองเดินมาถูกทาง[/size]

. . . this does not even consider the various commanders of both the military and the police who can bring their forces to bear to determine what occurred, to pursue the terrorists. (They can employ) various strategies and techniques in a manner that defers to no one and each faction can employ their own methods. What is important is that each (commander) believes that he alone is following the correct path.

Perhaps ' who can deploy their forces in investigation and pursuit of criminals' would run a little smoother.

[bannork]

Thank you for taking the time to post that David, I believe you must be right about STD.

แค่เธอพลั้งเผลอไปครั้งเดียวก็อาจติดโรคได้

Neglect it just once [i.e. using a condom] and you may catch a disease.

The ไป here does not have the literal meaning of 'go' that it takes when acting as the main verb.

In this case it modifies พลั้งเผลอ and I think it can be interpreted in two ways... please feel free to correct or disagree, as my reasoning is based on feeling rather than authority or fact.

1. as 'too', i.e. 'be too careless'. Cf. แพงไป

2. Closer to the core meaning of ไป, showing direction, suggesting 'stepping out of what is normal' or 'letting oneself go'. Cf. ปล่อยไป

As I wrote the second example I started to doubt whether this is a valid analysis or not. What do those of you who feel shades of meaning better than I think about it? Is only 1. correct and 2. is just some vague false notion I have?

Wouldn't พลั้งเผลอ be an adjective here so 'too careless\ negligent would be more correct than the sense of direction ปล่อยไป ( verb)?

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes. Not sure where I got that other notion from.

[DavidHouston]

Yes. Not sure where I got that other notion from.

Meadish,

I like your analysis. Certainly ไป is used in many phrases as an extension of "go". Just a couple: ขยับไปหน่อย ดังต่อไปนี้ ทำไปทำมา เป็นต้นไป

เป็นต้นไป วนไปเวียนมา แล้วไปแล้ว etc. I agree that the current case under discussion more likely incorporates the notion of "excessive" but you presented the two alternatives and selected what in my opinion is the correct one.

[5tash]

แล้งน้ำใจ láeng nám jai be without kindness ; treat someone ungenerously/unkindly ; not be helpful or considerate

I am certainly no expert, but here is an observation. Lexitron has the following entry:

แล้งน้ำใจ [V] be without kindness; treat someone ungenerously/unkindly; not be helpful or considerate

Def. ไม่มีน้ำใจ.

Sample:การช่วยเหลือผู้ประสบภัยน้ำท่วมแสดงให้เห็นว่าคนไทยยังไม่แล้งน้ำใจ

Note one of the words for "kindness", "น้ำใจ [N] kindness; spirit; heart; thoughtfulness" and the use of the common word "น้ำ". Its opposite, to be cruel or unkind uses the word "แล้ง [N] drought", carrying through the metaphor associated with "water". I wonder if the human impulse here is the same as that which produced "the milk of human kindness" in English. Or, how about the metaphor, "desiccated soul".

Finally, look at the sample sentence: "การช่วยเหลือผู้ประสบภัยน้ำท่วมแสดงให้เห็นว่าคนไทยยังไม่แล้งน้ำใจ"

"The assistance provided to the victims of the flood disaster shows that Thaip people are not without kindness and compassion." Isn't it interesting that the drafter of the Lexitron example chose to use a concrete example using water in the context of flooding to illustrate the concepts of "น้ำใจ" and its opposite, "แล้ง" drought or the absence of water.

Great post; thanks.

Here's a few examples of น้ำใจ from Benjawan Poomsan Becker's 'Speak Like A Thai Volume 4, Heart Words.'

Kindness and thoughtfulness. น้ำใจ

Lit:water+heart

Kanjana is a kind and thoughtful person. กาญจนาเป็นคนมีน้ำใจ

Without kindness, treat someone ungenerously. แล้งน้ำใจ

Lit:drought+water+heart

He treats people ungenerously. เขาเป็นคนแล้งน้ำใจ

Disheartened, discouraged. เสียน้ำใจ

Lit:lose+water+heart

You made him feel bad and disheartened. คุณทำให้เขาเสียน้ำใจ

Show one's spirit or offer to help others. แสดงน้ำใจ

Lit:show+water+heart

We humans should know how to show compassion. คนเราต้องรู้จักแสดงน้ำใจ

Edited April 14, 2008 by 5tash

[5tash]

Could เสียน้ำใจ be considered the opposite of เกรงใจ ?

[mangkorn]

Could เสียน้ำใจ be considered the opposite of เกรงใจ?

It's not really the same thing: if you fail to เกรงใจ someone who is deserving of it, he/she is not likely to feel disheartened/discouraged; perhaps insulted, or angry.

As yoot explained, เกรงใจ connotes a certain feeling of fear (or should): of not being appreciated or respected by elders/superiors; the fear of disappointing or insulting persons who merit your obeisance.

You'd be more likely to เสียน้ำใจ someone whom you wouldn't necessarily เกรงใจ.

ไม่รู้เกรงใจ may be a pretty direct opposite of ู้เกรงใจ.

(But ไม่มีมารยาท also expresses the idea clearly, in a เกรงใจ context.)

As David said, เกรงใจ may be a nebulous concept for farangs sometimes, but the opposite of it is really an "insult" - whether intended or not.

[DavidHouston]

Please allow me to offer a set of suggestions for one of the opposites of the meaning of เกรงใจ:

กำเริบเสิบสาน – to be impudent, insolent, presumptuous (Domnern Sathienpong)

กำเริบเสิบสาน [V] mutiny; be insolent; be intense; run wild (Lexitron)

กำเริบ [V] to mutiny; be insolent; be intense (Lexitron)

เหิมเกริม [V] become bold; gain courage; be overconfident (Lexitron)

กำเริบเสิบสาน ก. ได้ใจ, เหิมใจ. (Royal Institute Dictionary)

ได้ใจ [V] become conceited; be encouraged; be overbold; be conceited; be overconfident; become haughty

Syn. ลำพองใจ, เหิมใจ, ย่ามใจ, ชะล่าใจ (Lexitron)

ชะล่าใจ [V] be careless; be complacent; be overconfident

Syn. ประมาท

A question for For 5Tash:

How does the Becker define some of the above "ใจ" words, for example, "ชะล่าใจ" and "ได้ใจ"? Thanks.

[mangkorn]

Good ones, David. Certainly, Thai language has innumerable words/phases for the ideas of impudent, insolent, conceited, etc. I just wonder if some of these might refer more to one's own behaviour, regardless of others - rather than in direct relation to others?

Maybe it all depends on the context. As you said before, it's a pretty fine line. So I'm just asking.

(Edit: two favourites among the many "conceited" phrases: หยิ่งยะโส and จองหอง - be careful of mistakenly saying that last one when trying to reserve a hotel room...)

Edited April 14, 2008 by mangkorn

[DavidHouston]

Good ones, David. Certainly, Thai language has innumerable words/phases for the ideas of impudent, insolent, conceited, etc. I just wonder if some of these might refer more to one's own behaviour, regardless of others - rather than in direct relation to others?

Maybe it all depends on the context. As you said before, it's a pretty fine line. So I'm just asking.

Let’s take one example from Lexitron:

“ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ”

In driving (around the city), if one is complacent or overconfident or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

What if one were to say, on the other hand:

“ในการขับรถหากใครไม่เกรงใจคนอื่นหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ”

In driving (around the city), if one is not respectful to other drivers [i.e. does not drive defensively] or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

Does this work? Thanks.

[mangkorn]

Good ones, David. Certainly, Thai language has innumerable words/phases for the ideas of impudent, insolent, conceited, etc. I just wonder if some of these might refer more to one's own behaviour, regardless of others - rather than in direct relation to others?

Maybe it all depends on the context. As you said before, it's a pretty fine line. So I'm just asking.

Let's take one example from Lexitron:

"ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ"

In driving (around the city), if one is complacent or overconfident or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

What if one were to say, on the other hand:

"ในการขับรถหากใครไม่เกรงใจคนอื่นหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ"

In driving (around the city), if one is not respectful to other drivers [i.e. does not drive defensively] or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

Does this work? Thanks.

One of our native speakers may correct me, but I don't think that you would ever เกรงใจ another motorist (unless you knew he were a real bigshot, or perhaps were afraid that he might ram you, or pull a gun...). Automobile drivers as a collective, anonymous population cannot really be deserving of เกรงใจ, can they?

In my experience, เกรงใจ is not used in the general context of basic respect for others, or common courtesy (at least not out on the streets or in common areas). What I hear in that sense, as in "to respect women" for example, is ให้เกียรติ

Okay, I'm ready to be corrected...

(Edit: well, if an anonymous collective constitutes the heavy bigshots (i.e., the powers that be) the phrase can be apt. But I don't think that applies to motorists.)

Edited April 14, 2008 by mangkorn

[meadish_sweetball]

Sorry to branch out on yet another tangent, but am I the only one who thinks the Lexitron sentence looks strange?

ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ

When an accident is involved, would not ถูก (or in more casual, spoken Thai, โดน) be more apt than ได้รับ ?

I would appreciate if a native speaker could comment on this.

[5tash]

Please allow me to offer a set of suggestions for one of the opposites of the meaning of เกรงใจ:

กำเริบเสิบสาน – to be impudent, insolent, presumptuous (Domnern Sathienpong)

กำเริบเสิบสาน [V] mutiny; be insolent; be intense; run wild (Lexitron)

กำเริบ [V] to mutiny; be insolent; be intense (Lexitron)

เหิมเกริม [V] become bold; gain courage; be overconfident (Lexitron)

กำเริบเสิบสาน ก. ได้ใจ, เหิมใจ. (Royal Institute Dictionary)

ได้ใจ [V] become conceited; be encouraged; be overbold; be conceited; be overconfident; become haughty

Syn. ลำพองใจ, เหิมใจ, ย่ามใจ, ชะล่าใจ (Lexitron)

ชะล่าใจ [V] be careless; be complacent; be overconfident

Syn. ประมาท

A question for For 5Tash:

How does the Becker define some of the above "ใจ" words, for example, "ชะล่าใจ" and "ได้ใจ"? Thanks.

Here's some more examples from B.P.B's 'Heart Words' as you requested David.

To be conceited, to give someone an inch and they take a foot. ได้ใจ

Lit.get, aquire+heart

The more they give, the more they want. ยิ่งให้ ยิ่งได้ใจ

To take advantage of someone's kindness. ย่ามใจ

Lit.bag, sack+heart

Watch out. He may take advantage of your kindess. ระวังจะย่ามใจ

Careless, overconfident. ชะล่าใจ

Lit.negligent+heart

Don't be careless. อย่าชะล่าใจ

Arrogant, haughty. เหิมใจ/ลำพองใจ

Lit.become bold+heart, impetuous+heart

He smiled with arrogance. เขายิ้มด้วยความลำพองใจ

[yoot]

Good ones, David. Certainly, Thai language has innumerable words/phases for the ideas of impudent, insolent, conceited, etc. I just wonder if some of these might refer more to one's own behaviour, regardless of others - rather than in direct relation to others?

Maybe it all depends on the context. As you said before, it's a pretty fine line. So I'm just asking.

Let's take one example from Lexitron:

"ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ"

In driving (around the city), if one is complacent or overconfident or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

What if one were to say, on the other hand:

"ในการขับรถหากใครไม่เกรงใจคนอื่นหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ"

In driving (around the city), if one is not respectful to other drivers [i.e. does not drive defensively] or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

Does this work? Thanks.

One of our native speakers may correct me, but I don't think that you would ever เกรงใจ another motorist (unless you knew he were a real bigshot, or perhaps were afraid that he might ram you, or pull a gun...). Automobile drivers as a collective, anonymous population cannot really be deserving of เกรงใจ, can they?

In my experience, เกรงใจ is not used in the general context of basic respect for others, or common courtesy (at least not out on the streets or in common areas). What I hear in that sense, as in "to respect women" for example, is ให้เกียรติ

Okay, I'm ready to be corrected...

(Edit: well, if an anonymous collective constitutes the heavy bigshots (i.e., the powers that be) the phrase can be apt. But I don't think that applies to motorists.)

The word 'เกรงใจ' can be used in so many situations. As in the example quoted by David, ในการขับรถหากใครไม่เกรงใจคนอื่นหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ, it's correct to say that. Or you can say ในการขับรถหากไม่รู้จักมารยาท (or ไม่มีมารยาท)หรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ.

If you feel 'เกรงใจ' (feeling fear of bothering others) that means you have 'มารยาท' (manners) too. No matter who you have to deal with, you can feel 'เกรงใจ' to everyone.

Sometimes you might hear some Thai people say someting like 'ถ้าไม่เกรงใจตำรวจนะ ผมแซงไปแล้ว'. In this context it means 'If I don't feel fear of getting caught I would overtake already'.

[yoot]

Sorry to branch out on yet another tangent, but am I the only one who thinks the Lexitron sentence looks strange?

ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ

When an accident is involved, would not ถูก (or in more casual, spoken Thai, โดน) be more apt than ได้รับ ?

I would appreciate if a native speaker could comment on this.

No, it's not strange.

What you understand is if it has negative meaning ถูก should be used which is correct. But as for the word ได้รับ which mean 'to get' it can be used in the sentence which might have positive or negative meaning.

[mangkorn]

Sorry to branch out on yet another tangent, but am I the only one who thinks the Lexitron sentence looks strange?

ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ

When an accident is involved, would not ถูก (or in more casual, spoken Thai, โดน) be more apt than ได้รับ ?

I would appreciate if a native speaker could comment on this.

No, it's not strange.

What you understand is if it has negative meaning ถูก should be used which is correct. But as for the word ได้รับ which mean 'to get' it can be used in the sentence which might have positive or negative meaning.

Khun yoot: could you please clarify "negative meaning" in that sense?

ถูก seems to be used in many cases I wouldn't consider negative, but perhaps our understanding of "negative" are different? For example: ถูกจับ - that doesn't seem negative, in a grammatical way (although if it happened to me, I surely would not think of it as a very positive thing...).

Thanks.

[riga]

ถูกต้องนะครับ

I was just thinking the same

[CSS]

Sorry to branch out on yet another tangent, but am I the only one who thinks the Lexitron sentence looks strange?

ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ

When an accident is involved, would not ถูก (or in more casual, spoken Thai, โดน) be more apt than ได้รับ ?

I would appreciate if a native speaker could comment on this.

No, it's not strange.

What you understand is if it has negative meaning ถูก should be used which is correct. But as for the word ได้รับ which mean 'to get' it can be used in the sentence which might have positive or negative meaning.

Khun yoot: could you please clarify "negative meaning" in that sense?

ถูก seems to be used in many cases I wouldn't consider negative, but perhaps our understanding of "negative" are different? For example: ถูกจับ - that doesn't seem negative, in a grammatical way (although if it happened to me, I surely would not think of it as a very positive thing...).

Thanks.

I believe he means negative in the sense that it is not something that the subject would want to have happen to him/her and not negative in the mathematical sense or that of negation.

[CSS]

Good ones, David. Certainly, Thai language has innumerable words/phases for the ideas of impudent, insolent, conceited, etc. I just wonder if some of these might refer more to one's own behaviour, regardless of others - rather than in direct relation to others?

Maybe it all depends on the context. As you said before, it's a pretty fine line. So I'm just asking.

Let's take one example from Lexitron:

"ในการขับรถหากใครชะล่าใจหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ"

In driving (around the city), if one is complacent or overconfident or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

What if one were to say, on the other hand:

"ในการขับรถหากใครไม่เกรงใจคนอื่นหรือประมาทก็อาจจะได้รับอุบัติเหตุ"

In driving (around the city), if one is not respectful to other drivers [i.e. does not drive defensively] or violates the rules, he or she might end up having an accident.

Does this work? Thanks.

One of our native speakers may correct me, but I don't think that you would ever เกรงใจ another motorist (unless you knew he were a real bigshot, or perhaps were afraid that he might ram you, or pull a gun...). Automobile drivers as a collective, anonymous population cannot really be deserving of เกรงใจ, can they?

In my experience, เกรงใจ is not used in the general context of basic respect for others, or common courtesy (at least not out on the streets or in common areas). What I hear in that sense, as in "to respect women" for example, is ให้เกียรติ

Okay, I'm ready to be corrected...

(Edit: well, if an anonymous collective constitutes the heavy bigshots (i.e., the powers that be) the phrase can be apt. But I don't think that applies to motorists.)

From my experience I'd have to say that เกรงใจ is used in contexts of courtesy for others and that it certainly isn't restricted to situations of fear or obeisance. I find that you can เกรงใจ those of lesser status just as well as those of greater, though เกรงใจ is broad enough to encompass the many of the deferential actions done both out of fear or obeisance.