Two Tier / Double Pricing For Farang

[shepsel]

I know that two tier/double pricing topic has been discussed many times before on Thai Visa forums, but, I would like to know if any actions, such as a class action lawsuit could be brought upon establishments who are doing this. I feel that the two tier/double pricing policy is racist by those who are initiating it. This does not include having reduced prices for children or seniors. It is the policy of charging more just because you are not Thai.

Would it be possible for an Expats Club, for instance, to make a case of this on behalf of non-Thai resisidents of the Kingdom to make a point?

On a recent holiday I noticed a number of places charging much more for farang, than for Thais. Included are Chiang Mai Night Siffari--250 baht for a Thai, and 500 for the Farang partner. Tiffany's Cabaret (Pattaya) 250+baht for the Thai and 500+baht for the Farang. They even have the nerver to put the Thai price in Thai script so the Farang won't know. We all know the national parks more than double the prices for Farang. It even went as far as hotel reservations and a membership card at the Royal Twins Palace in Pattaya. A loyalty (discount) card for a Thai is 300 baht, and 350 if in the Farangs name. When my Thai partner called for a room rate with the loyalty card, the quote was 1290 baht. When I called with the loyalty card number, the quote for the same room type was 1790 baht.

My whole arguement is not just the money differential--it is the principle of the way Thai businesses and institutions discriminate and charge Farang more because we lack "colour".

If a class action suit is not a possibility against the establishments and institutions who do this, I was wondering if we could establish a list of every place in every City and Town that has this policy, and as residents, we could decide beforehand if we wish to patronize places that do have this practice of two tier double pricing.

I realize that many of us foreigners are alot wealthier than most Thais, but their are many Thais that are wealthy, too--and why are they not penalized as well with higher prices, so I would appreciate posts be left out stressing that we have more money than they do--so we should be expected to pay more--be more directed to the topic that it is "unfair" and "racist" to charge more to people of different colour.

[Bananaman]

I know that two tier/double pricing topic has been discussed many times before on Thai Visa forums, but, I would like to know if any actions, such as a class action lawsuit could be brought upon establishments who are doing this. I feel that the two tier/double pricing policy is racist by those who are initiating it. This does not include having reduced prices for children or seniors. It is the policy of charging more just because you are not Thai.

Would it be possible for an Expats Club, for instance, to make a case of this on behalf of non-Thai resisidents of the Kingdom to make a point?

On a recent holiday I noticed a number of places charging much more for farang, than for Thais. Included are Chiang Mai Night Siffari--250 baht for a Thai, and 500 for the Farang partner. Tiffany's Cabaret (Pattaya) 250+baht for the Thai and 500+baht for the Farang. They even have the nerver to put the Thai price in Thai script so the Farang won't know. We all know the national parks more than double the prices for Farang. It even went as far as hotel reservations and a membership card at the Royal Twins Palace in Pattaya. A loyalty (discount) card for a Thai is 300 baht, and 350 if in the Farangs name. When my Thai partner called for a room rate with the loyalty card, the quote was 1290 baht. When I called with the loyalty card number, the quote for the same room type was 1790 baht.

My whole arguement is not just the money differential--it is the principle of the way Thai businesses and institutions discriminate and charge Farang more because we lack "colour".

If a class action suit is not a possibility against the establishments and institutions who do this, I was wondering if we could establish a list of every place in every City and Town that has this policy, and as residents, we could decide beforehand if we wish to patronize places that do have this practice of two tier double pricing.

I realize that many of us foreigners are alot wealthier than most Thais, but their are many Thais that are wealthy, too--and why are they not penalized as well with higher prices, so I would appreciate posts be left out stressing that we have more money than they do--so we should be expected to pay more--be more directed to the topic that it is "unfair" and "racist" to charge more to people of different colour.

None of us like the double pricing system and your sentiment is a valid one but a class action lawsuit against government-owned ventures like the Night Safari and the National Parks is likely to get you either a one way ticket out of here or an encounter with someone nasty on a dark road after which you're never to be seen again.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Bananaman

[Bluelotus]

As far as "unfair " I suppose that depends on your point of view. Relative economies are perhaps the crux. The policy is more "nationalistic" than "racist ". What would you offer as a solution , ? lower the farang prices ? Raise the Thai prices ?

This practice is by no means restricted to The Kingdom , it never bothered me . But a Thai drivers license can help.

[PhilHarries]

I applaud your intentions but the last guy who tried a stunt like this went by the name Canute and got his feet wet.

The Thai administration truly don't care about the well being or happiness of us farangs. All they want is for us to arrive in Thailand, empty our wallets asap and then <deleted> off back to farangland to earn more so as to repeat the process.

Our only avenue of redress is to boycot establishments that indulge in this practice but as for every one that is prepared to go down this route there are ten who just pay up on the basis that it is only peanuts compared with the cost of a two week holiday. Also many who visit such places are on tours where everything is paid for up front so they have no idea what they are paying. Of course it get tough when you have visitors from the homeland who want to do all the touristy things but then you either swallow your pride or stand your ground explaining your position.

As Bluelotus says the production of a Thai driving license worked for me at the Million Year Stone Park and again at Nong Nooch. Never been to the Night Safari (wasn't there when I was up that way) and would never go to a Thai zoo due to the appalling conditions often found within. Never been to Tiffany's but the idea of wasting cash and time out of my life watching katoeys lip synching is abhorrent.

The bottom line is that we are not wanted, we have no rights, and no Thai is interested in our griping over two tier pricing. As for getting a Thai lawyer involved that would be like getting a UK lawyer involved in a malpractice action agaist another lawyer.

[girlx]

didn't Guesthouse have a website where people could post about their experiences with this?

[mrtoad]

I think that Phil has summed it up quite nicely. It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I will not go into an establishment if they try and charge me a higher price than a Thai. It is especially annoying, when they try it on if I am with my wife and daughter . Dusit Zoo is one place, where they will try it, but I have managed to pay the proper price after a little debate.

Get a driving licence if you can, as it has some benefits.

A noble idea from the OP, but TIT not the US or UK.

[steveromagnino]

A noble idea from the OP, but TIT not the US or UK.

USA has local vs. non local pricing as well. I know...encounter it every year when I go snowboarding.

Can't remember about the UK.

No legal reason for a class action suit; you can only speak with your feet.

[soundman]

I realize that many of us foreigners are alot wealthier than most Thais, but their are many Thais that are wealthy, too--and why are they not penalized as well with higher prices, so I would appreciate posts be left out stressing that we have more money than they do--so we should be expected to pay more--be more directed to the topic that it is "unfair" and "racist" to charge more to people of different colour.

This here is an important point.

There are approximately 6 mil Thais who are probably better off than a high percentage of visitors to the Kingdom. And it is from this pool of Thais where the users of nice hotels / resorts etc receive "special" Thai price, not from the other 60 mil citizens of the country who the double tier pricing system is supposed to benefit.

Soundman.

[mrtoad]

A noble idea from the OP, but TIT not the US or UK.

USA has local vs. non local pricing as well. I know...encounter it every year when I go snowboarding.

Can't remember about the UK.

No legal reason for a class action suit; you can only speak with your feet.

UK doesn't to the best of my knowledge, and I'm originally from one of the main tourism areas. Local/Non Local pricing has often been mooted but never implemented.

I think it is something that we have to put up with. As you say, vote with your feet, thats what I do.

[wolfmanjack]

A noble idea from the OP, but TIT not the US or UK.

USA has local vs. non local pricing as well. I know...encounter it every year when I go snowboarding.

Can't remember about the UK.

No legal reason for a class action suit; you can only speak with your feet.

The only double pricing that i have seen in the USA is state resident vs non state resident and producing an instate driving license gets you the resident price. I know we all have non resident visas but in reality we are residents. In my home state you get the resident price for University costs if you lived in state for 6 months before enrolling. Many of the rich out of staters knew this and did just that.

[junkofdavid2]

I know that two tier/double pricing topic has been discussed many times before on Thai Visa forums, but, I would like to know if any actions, such as a class action lawsuit could be brought upon establishments who are doing this. I feel that the two tier/double pricing policy is racist by those who are initiating it. This does not include having reduced prices for children or seniors. It is the policy of charging more just because you are not Thai.

Would it be possible for an Expats Club, for instance, to make a case of this on behalf of non-Thai resisidents of the Kingdom to make a point?

On a recent holiday I noticed a number of places charging much more for farang, than for Thais. Included are Chiang Mai Night Siffari--250 baht for a Thai, and 500 for the Farang partner. Tiffany's Cabaret (Pattaya) 250+baht for the Thai and 500+baht for the Farang. They even have the nerver to put the Thai price in Thai script so the Farang won't know. We all know the national parks more than double the prices for Farang. It even went as far as hotel reservations and a membership card at the Royal Twins Palace in Pattaya. A loyalty (discount) card for a Thai is 300 baht, and 350 if in the Farangs name. When my Thai partner called for a room rate with the loyalty card, the quote was 1290 baht. When I called with the loyalty card number, the quote for the same room type was 1790 baht.

My whole arguement is not just the money differential--it is the principle of the way Thai businesses and institutions discriminate and charge Farang more because we lack "colour".

If a class action suit is not a possibility against the establishments and institutions who do this, I was wondering if we could establish a list of every place in every City and Town that has this policy, and as residents, we could decide beforehand if we wish to patronize places that do have this practice of two tier double pricing.

I realize that many of us foreigners are alot wealthier than most Thais, but their are many Thais that are wealthy, too--and why are they not penalized as well with higher prices, so I would appreciate posts be left out stressing that we have more money than they do--so we should be expected to pay more--be more directed to the topic that it is "unfair" and "racist" to charge more to people of different colour.

Sure. And while you're at it, also file lawsuits against every country with protectionist policies, allowing local items to "unfairly" be sold "normally", but putting the "unfair" tax on items being imported from foreigners in foreign countries.

[wilko]

I’m sure these discrepancies do happen but I doubt if they are based on skin color – maybe on foreigners irrespective of color. However outside the hurly-burly of the tourist hot-spots I doubt if the practice is that common. Seems to me that there are several aspects to the “apparent” two tier pricing by Thais to “Farang”.

Not least is farang paranoia and the various conspiracy theories that are held to be gospel amongst the expat community. – is it really happening in every case? People swear blind they have been charged extra for being a farang but where is the evidence – hearsay mostly, or observation; often inaccurate. They also may have been charged more for other reasons…..e.g. they can’t bargain, miss heard or miss-paid. …..Or were taken advantage of not because they were “Farang” but because they were just plain stupid.

Then when it actually does happen, what is the real difference? In some cases – i.e. National Parks it is quantifiable, but in others one just assumes that the price is higher, but by how much. When I lived in UK some private tourist institutions offered up to 100% discount for locals. I guess if you are going to visit a place regularly paying the full price is out of the question.

At the end of the day, market forces will overcome. Take house rental…..many assume that farang pay higher rents for the same properties….but – bottom line - any business is simply looking for the best possible return for its money, so eventually it will have to stop renting to Thais altogether unless they are willing to pay the premium rental…so in the end Thais will have to drop out of the market – no housing for Thais would be a shot in the foot if you ask me. And so on in other businesses, eventually Thais will be excluded from deal after deal in their own country…I doubt if they will stand for this.

What hotel is going to regularly rent out a room at a loss? If they offer a lower price to Thais, if it is profitable, it must be available to farang…..you can’t run a business subsidizing a section of customers indefinitely. I would suggest that if you suspect you are not getting the best price for something the answer is to haggle or bargain…..just the same as every market from your local Wat to Wall street…if they’re going to turn a buck, they’ll rent you a room.

[Beardog]

The only options to avoid the double pricing is to move to a neutral non racist country. California in USA offers LOCALS ski passes cheaper - This is NOT a US wide acceptance & the companies would be in court so quick for Racism there heads would spin. Thailand would be a lot more PC & aligned with the rest of the world if they did offer local prices only to the locals. But we are farang & we get to pick up the slack! No boby likes the way it works, but in 4 years here suing the govn. for anything would & winning be a first. No Whining .......Bite The Bullet

[bob4you]

Sometimes a Thai drivers license or work permit to show you live here and/or pay taxes here will work. Also if you live here and do work for government i.e. Foreign Tourist Police Assistant and show your ID they will grant you local rates.

I live 20 years in Hawaii and many venues had resident and non resident prices. We didn't have another alphabet to hide the fact in the pricing signs but they used words like "Kamaaina" for the different pricing.

[onzestan]

Racism is in this nowadays very politically correct world a word that is constantly being misused.

I'm a belgian elderly citizen (over 65). I have a card that allows my FREE public transport i.e. trams and buses, in Belgium, amongst other benefits of having paid my dues.

Is this racism?

If the Thai government decides that they favor there citizens over foreigners, have I got news for you, there's nothing anyone can do about it, and so it should be. Oh, and I don't for one minute believe that the Thai government is only letting us in to empty our pockets. They allow us to spent our money here to obtain levels of comfort, service, adventure and living conditions at prices far below what we would have to pay in our home countries.

Be grateful.

My 2 cents

onzestan

[ozzydom]

Most of the enterprises mentioned are State owned and as such are owned by the citizens, just set it in your mind that the price you pay is the correct price and Thai price is discounted because they own it,after all ,there have to be some benefit for being a Thai in your own country.

[wilko]

Hotels, houses, ..... state owned?????

[onzestan]

Most of the enterprises mentioned are State owned and as such are owned by the citizens, just set it in your mind that the price you pay is the correct price and Thai price is discounted because they own it,after all ,there have to be some benefit for being a Thai in your own country.

Exactly

onzestan

[a2396]

A distinction should be made here between government owned or sponsored enterprises & private business operations. Back home in my country USA, it is common for parks and other such attractions, to charge a higher fee for non-residents, ie of that state or locale. I would suppose foreigners in Thailand would be construed as non-residents, even though they may have visas to stay here. Very few have permanent resident status.

Private business is another matter and I don't think the mentality that Farangs are rich, will ever go away here, particularly when they spend like "drunken sailors" for some things or people. In my own experience, I have rarely been overcharged for minor purchases, such as food, etc. When it comes to a matter of greater price, such as repair of a household item or construction, I stay out of sight & let my Thai friends do the negotiation.

[way2muchcoffee]

I pay more money in taxes to the Thai government every month than the combined taxes paid by the 30-odd members of my wife's extended family. I find the practice of two-tier pricing racist and abhorrent.

[barky]

I pay more money in taxes to the Thai government every month than the combined taxes paid by the 30-odd members of my wife's extended family. I find the practice of two-tier pricing racist and abhorrent.

I totally agree here and also with Philharries above. Why? simple.I earn my income in Thailand , pay my taxes like any Thai, Have stayed here for 7 years with only one trip abroad in that time, Spend 99% of my income here, Have bought property (2 condos) pay 2 mortgages to Thai banks, Got married to a Thai (which offers me basically zero concessions) I obey the law, mind my own business, I mean what else do they want?

I agree with the majority of posts here. I hate it, and yes I vote with my feet. There have been many places that I would like to go to but I don't because of the discrimination.

And no it's not only the money (even though I'm just a working guy) I's the principle!

[wilko]

A distinction should be made here between government owned or sponsored enterprises & private business operations. Back home in my country USA, it is common for parks and other such attractions, to charge a higher fee for non-residents, ie of that state or locale. I would suppose foreigners in Thailand would be construed as non-residents, even though they may have visas to stay here. Very few have permanent resident status.

Private business is another matter and I don't think the mentality that Farangs are rich, will ever go away here, particularly when they spend like "drunken sailors" for some things or people. In my own experience, I have rarely been overcharged for minor purchases, such as food, etc. When it comes to a matter of greater price, such as repair of a household item or construction, I stay out of sight & let my Thai friends do the negotiation.

To me that would seem to sum up the situation pretty well - I think cries of racism are well out of order and tend to indicate an ignorance of what racism actually means in practice.

I find that negotiation..whether by oneself or through and mediator seems to even things up. It also helps to speak some Thai.

I really don't think that there is a culture in THailand tghat is hel_l-bent on charging "Farang" more though....I think it really stems from the Farang themselves.

Edited April 4, 2008 by wilko

[CarlBkk]

I pay more money in taxes to the Thai government every month than the combined taxes paid by the 30-odd members of my wife's extended family. I find the practice of two-tier pricing racist and abhorrent.

Here's a very real example of double-pricing in the UK: Thai Square chain of restaurants. They have nightclubs below where foreigners (non-Thais) are charged £15 and Thais go in quietly for free. This has been going on relentlessley since it opened 10 years ago. The owner is an Arab with a Thai wife.

[barky]

I pay more money in taxes to the Thai government every month than the combined taxes paid by the 30-odd members of my wife's extended family. I find the practice of two-tier pricing racist and abhorrent.

Here's a very real example of double-pricing in the UK: Thai Square chain of restaurants. They have nightclubs below where foreigners (non-Thais) are charged £15 and Thais go in quietly for free. This has been going on relentlessley since it opened 10 years ago. The owner is an Arab with a Thai wife.

I am very surprised that something like this is allowed to go on for 10 years under the noses of the government and police. If it could/can be proved then they should be out of business, shouldn't they?

[dave111223]

As far as "unfair " I suppose that depends on your point of view. Relative economies are perhaps the crux. The policy is more "nationalistic" than "racist ". What would you offer as a solution , ? lower the farang prices ? Raise the Thai prices ?

This practice is by no means restricted to The Kingdom , it never bothered me . But a Thai drivers license can help.

I disagree, if it was "nationalistic" then all Asians would have to pay the foreigner price....but i have some Asian/American fiends who never pay the foreigner price when entering parks etc... they just don't say anything and only get charged the Thai price.

To make it non-racist whenever there is a Thai citizen discount then ID card should be required....not just brown skin tone.

[barky]

As far as "unfair " I suppose that depends on your point of view. Relative economies are perhaps the crux. The policy is more "nationalistic" than "racist ". What would you offer as a solution , ? lower the farang prices ? Raise the Thai prices ?

This practice is by no means restricted to The Kingdom , it never bothered me . But a Thai drivers license can help.

I disagree, if it was "nationalistic" then all Asians would have to pay the foreigner price....but i have some Asian/American fiends who never pay the foreigner price when entering parks etc... they just don't say anything and only get charged the Thai price.

To make it non-racist whenever there is a Thai citizen discount then ID card should be required....not just brown skin tone.

Spot On!!

[CarlBkk]

I pay more money in taxes to the Thai government every month than the combined taxes paid by the 30-odd members of my wife's extended family. I find the practice of two-tier pricing racist and abhorrent.

Here's a very real example of double-pricing in the UK: Thai Square chain of restaurants. They have nightclubs below where foreigners (non-Thais) are charged £15 and Thais go in quietly for free. This has been going on relentlessley since it opened 10 years ago. The owner is an Arab with a Thai wife.

I am very surprised that something like this is allowed to go on for 10 years under the noses of the government and police. If it could/can be proved then they should be out of business, shouldn't they?

I would have thought so. It would only take a white policeman to go in with a Thai and it was undoubtedly be proved. I guess no-one has taken it to the level of complaining to the police.

[xbusman]

My experience stems from our golf group where the average tenure in Thailand is probably close to 20 years and everyone (with myself the only exception) being fluent in Thai to the extreme.

First, I believe these policies to be racist, as a general rule I believe the Chinese and Japanese get the Thai price, almost assuredly if they speak any Thai.

The old timers I am fortunate to associate with abhor the double pricing policy, much more so than I. Perhaps its because they are so much a part of the community. Fluency promotes that as I am learning.

At various golf courses we have raging arguments about foreigner versus thai pricing. These are private businesses and I would estimate around 30 to 50% of them practice discriminatory pricing. We have often left the course in opposition to paying the farang price. As this is an avid golf group, sometimes going out five or six days a week with 5 to 10 players, it seems like every slow season we start getting calls from course managers that have not seen us in months, assuring us that "we" can get the local pricing. For one or two rounds it works fine and then suddenly Asian amnesia kicks in and no one every heard of any farang ever getting local pricing and we walk again.

I guess the answer is that if you object in principal, when then do what we do and go home to have a lovely day watching thai television instead of paying the extra 1000 baht. The beauty of freedom is that you dont have to support someone ripping you off if you dont choose to do so.

Its a fact of life here. You might as well hope to change alchohol consumption, issues of face, or change the diet of rice for all the good it will do us. Over time, things change. Already the closing hours, drinking rules, double pricing, and on and on are having effects on tourism here. When it starts biting in the pocketbook, then people involved begin to notice but not before then.

[colino]

I don't know why but i have never really had a problem with duel pricing (tiger zoo, dream world , sea life center,) to name a few

when we have gone to pay for the tickets i have been asked if i have a Thai bank card so i just show them my ATM card and pay Thai price's

Baht bus's being the only exception ,, but then i just get the wife to pay as i walk away ,

Edited April 4, 2008 by colino

[GuestHouse]

didn't Guesthouse have a website where people could post about their experiences with this?

Yes he I did (FairpriceThailand), I ran the website for three years until I found work/home commitments left me with no time time to maintain the site - and answer queries.

A point of note, my website reported both double pricing and fair single pricing - and reported exclusion of people, for example the exclusion of Thais from businesses in Thailand.

The site did have some successes, a number of the international hotels in Bangkok removed racist pricing policies from their advertising

(What's a racist pricing policy? - One that discriminates on the basis of race/nationality and immigration status - If you don't agree with that you are not in agreement with the corporate offices of the hotels we approached).

I also had some interesting emails from people who used the site, a bag full of guys writing to tell me that they are willing to kiss @ss in Thailand and accept whatever treatment is dished out to them - and hence so should everyone else.

But also a lot of emails from people who expressed concern over this issue and thanks for being able to express their views.

---

One of the most compelling arguments I came across against official two tier pricing in these responses was from a foreign father who reported the following experience .

Living in Thailand with his Thai wife and son by their marriage, he worked in Thailand on a Thai wage, he and his wife both teachers. Their son was 9 years old, an age when boys idolize their fathers and and age too when they are perhaps their most impressionable.

The father was increasingly aware of the fact that their son was picking up on the fact that when buying goods and services, dad would wait outside, or around the corner while mum got the 'Thai price'. He decided this 'hiding' was not a good example to his son and so decided to no longer do so.

After making this decision and on entering a national park a conversation ensued with the staff of the park ticket office - His wife should pay the Bht 20 price because she was Thai, the father should pay Bht200 because he was a foreigner and the son should pay Bht100 because he was a half Thai and half foreign.

The father told how totally devastated he felt to witness his child being discriminated against in what is his own country, and how the treatment was so totally against his and his wife's efforts to raise their child as a Thai citizen in Thailand.

As the father noted this is a treatment indicative of attitudes towards mixed race children in Thailand and one that speaks of exclusion.

This is a compelling argument, and while the reported treatment may be unusual or extreme (or is it just one of many such discriminatory instances against mixed race children), it is nevertheless indicative of a problem that arises through official (Government sponsored) two tier pricing - That precise point of exclusion.

Foreigners are living in Thailand, they are raising their mixed race families in Thailand - This government sponsored policy (copied in wider society) is a statement of exclusion.

It may not matter to a visitor spending two weeks, two months or two years in Thailand, it may not matter to a single guy who can afford to pay the extra charge and who may or may not care how he is personally treated. But it does have an impact on mixed race families in Thailand and many of them do care about the policy and exactly how it effects the integration of their family into Thai society.

Edited April 4, 2008 by GuestHouse