40 Up And Testotorone Injections! Do They Work?

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks John, I have looked into cream and gel, but it is very pricy if you compare to injections. Here in LOS, a shot only costs 500 baht, I want some feedback on injection which I guess many readers here also are interested, even this topic was started 2 years ago, but men facing low testosterone are continuing, so I guess we sould continue this topic on injections.

[tim armstrong]

I think testosterone REDUCTION is a far better idea - especially for many farlang in Pattaya, Phuket and other places. One of the best insights I've had in recent years was to receive 'hormone treatment' for prostate cancer. Which meant lowering the testosterone to shrink the prostate. After one injection and about 2 weeks of medication, I lost all libido,was totally impotent, AND lost all arousal.

The best looking naked woman in the world would have done nothing for me! It was one of the best lessons in my life, because for the first time ever, I knew what women were on about - regarding mens preoccupation with sex. We are consumed by it. Bring on mid life ageing normally I say, let the testosterone decline, you may discover there are other things in life to think about.

[Shurup]

There is a lot of useful but a lot of wrong info here too.

First of all ANY form of exogenous testosterone will suppress your natural testosterone production, and that includes the Andriol. Secondly ANY form of testosterone (again including Andriol) will aromatize to the estrogen and potentially may cause some unwanted side effects such as gynocomastia. However it more depends on the dosage and should not occur at the doses recommended for the HRT. In case you didn't know, even your natural testosterone goes through the aromatization process, which is required for the proper hormone level production by your testes, but the amount of estrogen produced is not nearly enough to cause any side effects.

Actually I would like to correct myself. By any form of testosterone I mean to say any form of testosterone preparation, because the testosterone is just a testosterone, there is only one form of it, but there are many different forms of carrying medias that deliver and release it inside your body.

In Andriol, testosterone is suspended in the oil and get absorbed by the lymphatic system. There is one condition for this type to get proper absorption, one must take it with some fatty food otherwise not much of it will get absorbed and released into the bloodstream. In the long run it will get too expensive as it has to be taken daily. I would only recommend it to the needle-phobic individuals.

All of the injectable forms of testosterone is very cost effective as they need to be injected once every 2 to 4 weeks. There are different esters that have different time release.

Most common for the HRT is a Testosterone Enanthate (Testoviron Depot), which half life is about 2 weeks. From what I know, the recommended dosage is 250mg (1 ml) every 2 to 4 weeks. Bodybuilders take an average of 500mg every week, but higher dosages are not uncommon.

Sustanon was designed for HRT with injection intervals not more often than once a month but due to the negative aura surrounding the steroids, it's not prescribed for HRT nor for anything else as far as I am aware. Sustanon is a testosterone preparation made of 4 different time release esters which supposed to keep the test blood level more or less constant for about one month. The shortest acting Ester is a Propionate whith a half-life about 2 days and the logiest acting ester is an Isocaproate with a half-life of more than 3 weeks. The other 2 esters in Sustanon are somewhere in the middle. The myth that it needs to be injected every 2 days comes from the gym and is based on the shortest acting ester Propionate (which half-life of about 2 days) so to keep the test blood level uniform, it needs to be injected that often. To me it's just stupid, if someone wants to do injections every 2 days, they can just use the Testosterone Propionate by itself which is cheaper than the Sustanon, so in my opinion the best use for this preparation is a HRT.

Just on the descriptions of the Testosterone Enanthate (Test E) and Sustanone (Sust), which have different half-lifes, I would like to show that the 250 mg of Test E every 4 weeks will not give you the same results as 250 mg Sust every 4 weeks. While Sust will give you more or less constant test blood level for the whole 4 weeks, with Test E, you will get a bigger initial spike and later on the test blood level will drop and by the end of 4 weeks will be very low comparing to Sust. 250 mg (or 1 ml) of Test E every 2 weeks would be more comparable to 500 mg (or 2 ml) of Sust every 4 weeks. In both cases you would use 500 mg of test every month but with Sust twice less injections are required.

Now to all the opponents and haters of Testosterone Users (bodybuilders or people on HRT) - Before you cry out that testosterone will <deleted> you up, you should know the facts. The fact is, the teenage boys naturally produce more testosterone than some bodybuilders use (not all users are abuse steroids). The fact is even the higher doses that some bodybuilders use (1 mg of test per week or more for the duration of their cycles), will do less harm to your body than smoking and drinking every day (even if you aren't falling off the bar chair - you still causing harm), and I mean short term and a long term harm. If you like to be skinny/fat with a beer gut, or as tim armstrong pointed out, if you like feeling old, that is your choice - do not criticize people who think and do otherwise and who like to look and be big (not fat) and strong. Yes, in a sense testosterone can <deleted> you up, because men are known to make some decisions with their small head!

With all the health benefits Testosterone injections / pills will give you, there are some side-effects that are easily predictable, controllable, avoidable and are dose dependent. At the HRT there isn't any really to worry about. As the dose goes up, the gynocomastia may develop (different man have different tolerance to this), acne, hair-loss in men who has a predisposition, body hair growth, deepening of the voice, aggression (which may be a problem in some individuals). There are other medications to counter / control most of the side effects but as I already mentioned, however none of these will happen if you stay within the HRT recommended dose. Oh, yeah, forgot the indigenous testosterone production. Your testicles will stop producing the natural testosterone and in time WILL shrink because of inactivity. If you are taking the testosterone for the HRT purpose - your natural testosterone should be the least of your worries - you are already not producing enough and that is the whole purpose of HRT but if you still plan on having kids in the future, you need to keep your family jewels operational and there are other medications that would do the job, I won't discuss it in this topic.

And yeah, someone earlier mentioned the development of female characteristics when testosterone aromatize to estrogen... I would like to know what were they talking about... I don't know of any except of gynocomastia (which is preventable, controllable and reversable at the early stages) and maybe gaining some bodyfat as the estrogen is the only reason why the average female has higher percent bodyfat than the average male. Anyone else wants to tell me other characteristics I didn't know about? I really want to know. No? I love when people like to make up scarry stories with no evidence at all.

End of my rant. Sorry if it's too long and boring for some. :jap:

[moe666]

I wouldn't trust any of these injections with a barge pole.

You should try natural methods first and foremost.

Lose weight, get fit, do weight bearing exercises, eat well and take supplements.

Tribulus is a good supplement to take as others have mentioned. Garlic also works , saw palmetto has positive effects do some research into other natural substances.

If you are over a certain age your testosterone drops off anyway.

Even into my mid to late forties i could and did shag a few times a day after 50 my testosterone dropped down. I still enjoy shagging but am not interested in shagging mulitple times a day. That is part of the aging process that you may need to resgn yourself to this fact. There is a male menopause. We do slow down as we get older. I would only think about sythenthic solutions after investigating all other avenues and even then probably not go down that route.

Just because it is part of the aging process doesn't mean you cannot do something about it. Young people also can have low testosterone levels, the baby face is usually a sign of low testosterone during puberty for males. Safe and responsible HRT is a viable treatment for many aligments that afflect us in old age and even in younger people.

Edited January 29, 2011 by moe666

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Aromatization issues and response

Clinical studies using testosterone injections, creams, or patches have often failed to provide a long-lasting, libido-enhancing effect in aging men. This is because testosterone can be converted to estrogen. The estrogen is then taken up by testosterone receptor sites in cells throughout the body. When an estrogen molecule occupies a testosterone receptor site on a cell membrane, it blocks the ability of serum testosterone to induce a healthy hormonal signal. It does not matter how much serum free testosterone is available if excess estrogen is competing for the same cellular receptor sites.

Aromatization is the process of converting testosterone to estrogens. This process increases with age. Aromatase blockers such as DIM (diindolylmethane) and Chrysin can reduce estrogen levels and enhance testosterone levels. If these fail to increase free testosterone and lower excess estradiol, then ask your doctor to prescribe the potent aromatase inhibiting drug Arimidex (anastrozole) in the very low dose of 0.5mg, twice per week. Arimidex reduced estradiol by approximately 70% within 24 hours and by approximately 80% after 14 days of daily use.

The usual dose range of DIM (diindolylmethane) for men is 200 - 400mg per day taken with food. For men involved in a plan of muscular development or fat loss, the dose of bioavailable diindolylmethane should be increased to 400 to 500mg per day.

Can also eats lots of Broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts etc to get natural sources of DIM

[Tolley]

I wouldn't trust any of these injections with a barge pole.

You should try natural methods first and foremost.

Lose weight, get fit, do weight bearing exercises, eat well and take supplements.

Tribulus is a good supplement to take as others have mentioned. Garlic also works , saw palmetto has positive effects do some research into other natural substances.

If you are over a certain age your testosterone drops off anyway.

Even into my mid to late forties i could and did shag a few times a day after 50 my testosterone dropped down. I still enjoy shagging but am not interested in shagging mulitple times a day. That is part of the aging process that you may need to resgn yourself to this fact. There is a male menopause. We do slow down as we get older. I would only think about sythenthic solutions after investigating all other avenues and even then probably not go down that route.

Just because it is part of the aging process doesn't mean you cannot do something about it. Young people also can have low testosterone levels, the baby face is usually a sign of low testosterone during puberty for males. Safe and responsible HRT is a viable treatment for many aligments that afflect us in old age and even in younger people.

Don't worry I am fighting the ageing process the best way i know.

I still maintain that you should try natural methods including diet,execise and vitamin supplementation.

The risk factors of the synthetic route are too high.

If you are prepared to make lifestyle changes you will be shocked at what you can achieve.

If you want to take the lazy way out you risk the consequences which may be very unpleasant.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I wouldn't trust any of these injections with a barge pole.

You should try natural methods first and foremost.

Lose weight, get fit, do weight bearing exercises, eat well and take supplements.

Tribulus is a good supplement to take as others have mentioned. Garlic also works , saw palmetto has positive effects do some research into other natural substances.

If you are over a certain age your testosterone drops off anyway.

Even into my mid to late forties i could and did shag a few times a day after 50 my testosterone dropped down. I still enjoy shagging but am not interested in shagging mulitple times a day. That is part of the aging process that you may need to resgn yourself to this fact. There is a male menopause. We do slow down as we get older. I would only think about sythenthic solutions after investigating all other avenues and even then probably not go down that route.

Just because it is part of the aging process doesn't mean you cannot do something about it. Young people also can have low testosterone levels, the baby face is usually a sign of low testosterone during puberty for males. Safe and responsible HRT is a viable treatment for many aligments that afflect us in old age and even in younger people.

Don't worry I am fighting the ageing process the best way i know.

I still maintain that you should try natural methods including diet,execise and vitamin supplementation.

The risk factors of the synthetic route are too high.

If you are prepared to make lifestyle changes you will be shocked at what you can achieve.

If you want to take the lazy way out you risk the consequences which may be very unpleasant.

There are a lot of risks of not addressing low testosterone and really if blood monitoring is done the risks of T replacement is not high at all.

High estrogen is related to a lot of diseases.

There are other strategies that can be used before T supplementation but often those don't work for various reasons.

Bottom line is get your T to E ratio and free testosterone levels to the proper ranges.

Using T replacement and blood testing is mostly a cost issue but ignoring inbalance is foolish.

Edited January 29, 2011 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[Tolley]

Aromatization issues and response

Clinical studies using testosterone injections, creams, or patches have often failed to provide a long-lasting, libido-enhancing effect in aging men. This is because testosterone can be converted to estrogen. The estrogen is then taken up by testosterone receptor sites in cells throughout the body. When an estrogen molecule occupies a testosterone receptor site on a cell membrane, it blocks the ability of serum testosterone to induce a healthy hormonal signal. It does not matter how much serum free testosterone is available if excess estrogen is competing for the same cellular receptor sites.

Aromatization is the process of converting testosterone to estrogens. This process increases with age. Aromatase blockers such as DIM (diindolylmethane) and Chrysin can reduce estrogen levels and enhance testosterone levels. If these fail to increase free testosterone and lower excess estradiol, then ask your doctor to prescribe the potent aromatase inhibiting drug Arimidex (anastrozole) in the very low dose of 0.5mg, twice per week. Arimidex reduced estradiol by approximately 70% within 24 hours and by approximately 80% after 14 days of daily use.

The usual dose range of DIM (diindolylmethane) for men is 200 - 400mg per day taken with food. For men involved in a plan of muscular development or fat loss, the dose of bioavailable diindolylmethane should be increased to 400 to 500mg per day.

Can also eats lots of Broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts etc to get natural sources of DIM

I am taking Tribulus Forte by Mediherb which has really done wonders for me.

I know that there is research out there that says it doesn't increase testosterone but it certainly worked for me. Most of the tribulus research is done on young athletes whose testosterone is already maxed out anyway so i wouldn't expect that it would boost their levels.

Additionally i have taken other tribulus products and they did nothing. Mediherb Tribulus Forte is the only good one on the market. It uses the flower and only Bulgarian tribulus.

Additionally I have just started taking Indole 3 Carbinol which is supposed to get rid of excess estrogen.

With the Tribulus i noticed almost immediate enhanced mood. After a few days I also noticed increased sexual desire. And over time I also managed to lose a few kilos around the difficult to move areas of the body which I attribute to the Tribulus as my regime stayed the same.

I play squash twice a week and lift weights twice a week and am doing it all a little better.

I have no idea what my testosterone levels are but next week i will get them checked out and post them here.

I do eat well. Lots of raw foods, nuts, seeds, veggies and fruit and high quality protein.

[Shurup]

Testosterone and estrogen do not bind to the same receptors within the body. Testosteron does it's job and estrogen does other job, they do not interfere with each other. However the use of aromatize inhibitors such us Arimidex can be beneficial.

[Shurup]

There are a lot of risks of not addressing low testosterone and really if blood monitoring is done the risks of T replacement is not high at all.

High estrogen is related to a lot of diseases.

There are other strategies that can be used before T supplementation but often those don't work for various reasons.

Bottom line is get your T to E ratio and free testosterone levels to the proper ranges.

Using T replacement and blood testing is mostly a cost issue but ignoring inbalance is foolish.

I will list it for you.

Effects of low testosterone in men may include: (not all are present in any single individual)

• Poor libido (Low sexual desire)
• Fatigue (medical) always tired
• Muscle loss/atrophy
• Erectile Dysfunction
• Increasing abdominal fat
• Glucose intolerance (early diabetes)
• High Cholesterol/Lipid
• Poor sleep
• Difficulty concentrating
• Memory Loss-difficulty in choosing words in language
• Shyness
• Depression
• Anxiety
• Psychological and relationship problems
• Gynecomastia
• Hot flashes
• Decrease in growth of, or loss of, beard and body hair
• Loss of bone mass (osteoporosis)
• Irritability
• Infertility
• Shrinking of the testicles
• Decrease in firmness of testicles
• Frequent urination (polyuria) without infection/waking at night to urinate
• Achy muscles
• Liquid stools
• Night sweats
• Dry skin and/or cracking nails

[Shurup]

I am taking Tribulus Forte by Mediherb which has really done wonders for me.

I know that there is research out there that says it doesn't increase testosterone but it certainly worked for me. Most of the tribulus research is done on young athletes whose testosterone is already maxed out anyway so i wouldn't expect that it would boost their levels.

Additionally i have taken other tribulus products and they did nothing. Mediherb Tribulus Forte is the only good one on the market. It uses the flower and only Bulgarian tribulus.

Additionally I have just started taking Indole 3 Carbinol which is supposed to get rid of excess estrogen.

With the Tribulus i noticed almost immediate enhanced mood. After a few days I also noticed increased sexual desire. And over time I also managed to lose a few kilos around the difficult to move areas of the body which I attribute to the Tribulus as my regime stayed the same.

I play squash twice a week and lift weights twice a week and am doing it all a little better.

I have no idea what my testosterone levels are but next week i will get them checked out and post them here.

I do eat well. Lots of raw foods, nuts, seeds, veggies and fruit and high quality protein.

Did you hear of this word - placebo?

There is not a single study that proved Tribulus increasing blood testosterone level. I am sure it has some health benefits but it won't do anything in regards to the testosterone blood level.

I am glad it works for you.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I am taking Tribulus Forte by Mediherb which has really done wonders for me.

I know that there is research out there that says it doesn't increase testosterone but it certainly worked for me. Most of the tribulus research is done on young athletes whose testosterone is already maxed out anyway so i wouldn't expect that it would boost their levels.

Additionally i have taken other tribulus products and they did nothing. Mediherb Tribulus Forte is the only good one on the market. It uses the flower and only Bulgarian tribulus.

Additionally I have just started taking Indole 3 Carbinol which is supposed to get rid of excess estrogen.

With the Tribulus i noticed almost immediate enhanced mood. After a few days I also noticed increased sexual desire. And over time I also managed to lose a few kilos around the difficult to move areas of the body which I attribute to the Tribulus as my regime stayed the same.

I play squash twice a week and lift weights twice a week and am doing it all a little better.

I have no idea what my testosterone levels are but next week i will get them checked out and post them here.

I do eat well. Lots of raw foods, nuts, seeds, veggies and fruit and high quality protein.

Did you hear of this word - placebo?

There is not a single study that proved Tribulus increasing blood testosterone level. I am sure it has some health benefits but it won't do anything in regards to the testosterone blood level.

I am glad it works for you.

There is supposed to be a lot of fake and low quality Tribulus out there. Definitely athletes have used it successfully. It's supposed to help the free T levels which are the key metric.

Any case histories of Total and Free T levels? The T and Estriadol tests are about 400 baht but unfortunately the Free T test is about 2000 baht. Not so cheap.

There are other tricks like Ice baths or very cold showers. A trick is to use a ice pack on the upper back for 30 minutes. This can really stimulate some growth factors. Other tricks are supplementing with Pregnenalone, DHEA and ALA. Cod liver oil and a small amount of butter at bedtime can boost levels also. All the steroidal hormones are cleaved from Cholesterol so giving yourself some quality cholesterol before sleep makes it a lot easier for the body to mfg hormones.

What does this Mediherb Tribulus cost? I am up in Chiang Mai if anyone knows a sales outlet. I would be interested to experiment with it and track it's effect on me with blood tests.

[Tolley]

I am taking Tribulus Forte by Mediherb which has really done wonders for me.

I know that there is research out there that says it doesn't increase testosterone but it certainly worked for me. Most of the tribulus research is done on young athletes whose testosterone is already maxed out anyway so i wouldn't expect that it would boost their levels.

Additionally i have taken other tribulus products and they did nothing. Mediherb Tribulus Forte is the only good one on the market. It uses the flower and only Bulgarian tribulus.

Additionally I have just started taking Indole 3 Carbinol which is supposed to get rid of excess estrogen.

With the Tribulus i noticed almost immediate enhanced mood. After a few days I also noticed increased sexual desire. And over time I also managed to lose a few kilos around the difficult to move areas of the body which I attribute to the Tribulus as my regime stayed the same.

I play squash twice a week and lift weights twice a week and am doing it all a little better.

I have no idea what my testosterone levels are but next week i will get them checked out and post them here.

I do eat well. Lots of raw foods, nuts, seeds, veggies and fruit and high quality protein.

Did you hear of this word - placebo?

There is not a single study that proved Tribulus increasing blood testosterone level. I am sure it has some health benefits but it won't do anything in regards to the testosterone blood level.

I am glad it works for you.

There is supposed to be a lot of fake and low quality Tribulus out there. Definitely athletes have used it successfully. It's supposed to help the free T levels which are the key metric.

Any case histories of Total and Free T levels? The T and Estriadol tests are about 400 baht but unfortunately the Free T test is about 2000 baht. Not so cheap.

There are other tricks like Ice baths or very cold showers. A trick is to use a ice pack on the upper back for 30 minutes. This can really stimulate some growth factors. Other tricks are supplementing with Pregnenalone, DHEA and ALA. Cod liver oil and a small amount of butter at bedtime can boost levels also. All the steroidal hormones are cleaved from Cholesterol so giving yourself some quality cholesterol before sleep makes it a lot easier for the body to mfg hormones.

What does this Mediherb Tribulus cost? I am up in Chiang Mai if anyone knows a sales outlet. I would be interested to experiment with it and track it's effect on me with blood tests.

You will have to buy it online.

In Australian i get 60 tablets for forty four dollars.

You are supposed to take two a day which i did for a while but one a day works fine for me.

[Tolley]

I am taking Tribulus Forte by Mediherb which has really done wonders for me.

I know that there is research out there that says it doesn't increase testosterone but it certainly worked for me. Most of the tribulus research is done on young athletes whose testosterone is already maxed out anyway so i wouldn't expect that it would boost their levels.

Additionally i have taken other tribulus products and they did nothing. Mediherb Tribulus Forte is the only good one on the market. It uses the flower and only Bulgarian tribulus.

Additionally I have just started taking Indole 3 Carbinol which is supposed to get rid of excess estrogen.

With the Tribulus i noticed almost immediate enhanced mood. After a few days I also noticed increased sexual desire. And over time I also managed to lose a few kilos around the difficult to move areas of the body which I attribute to the Tribulus as my regime stayed the same.

I play squash twice a week and lift weights twice a week and am doing it all a little better.

I have no idea what my testosterone levels are but next week i will get them checked out and post them here.

I do eat well. Lots of raw foods, nuts, seeds, veggies and fruit and high quality protein.

Did you hear of this word - placebo?

There is not a single study that proved Tribulus increasing blood testosterone level. I am sure it has some health benefits but it won't do anything in regards to the testosterone blood level.

I am glad it works for you.

As I mentioned in my post before most of the studies that have been done were performed on young athletes whose testosterone is already maxed out.

Secondly the majority of the tribulis on the market is rubbish. I have no idea what tribulus was being used in the studies.

I guess the only way to truly test it is to try it yourself by getting your levels measured before taking it and after. However even with the tests the levels change dependent on the time of day and various other factors so it is not an easy thing to judge.

[plahgat]

Hi!

Being over 50 myself and experiencing less libido and sexdrive for the last 2-3 years I decided to take some bloodtest at a small clinic in Nah-Kleua.

I choosed PSA and Testosterone, they only had one test for the latter one so I guess it is total T, costs 800 baht and 600 baht.

Had the blood sampled on Tuesday morning and Wednesday evening I received the results by E-mail, tests were sent and made at the Chonburi Hospital.

PSA was at 1,37 ng/mL which I suppose is normal for a guy my age and good as long it is under < 4,0 ng/mL

I expected the Testosterone level to be very low though, so I was very surprised when I saw the results!

Testosterone was at 1014 ng/dL, normal range 241-827 ng/dL

or 29,4 nmol/L, normal range 6,9-27,8 nmol/L

Over the normal range!?

I'm not sure how to interpret these results, is this normal levels?

Could it be that I'm not suffering from any hormone defeciency after all or

should I go for more tests including SHBG (sexhormone-binding globulin) and Estradiol?

Maybe most of my Testosterone has been bound to SHBG and hence is not bioavailable?

Are there any other cheaper clinics in Pattaya where I can take second hand tests for comparison?

Thanks in advance!

Plahgat

Edited February 2, 2011 by plahgat

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Hi!

Being over 50 myself and experiencing less libido and sexdrive for the last 2-3 years I decided to take some bloodtest at a small clinic in Nah-Kleua.

I choosed PSA and Testosterone, they only had one test for the latter one so I guess it is total T, costs 800 baht and 600 baht.

Had the blood sampled on Tuesday morning and Wednesday evening I received the results by E-mail, tests were sent and made at the Chonburi Hospital.

PSA was at 1,37 ng/mL which I suppose is normal for a guy my age and good as long it is under < 4,0 ng/mL

I expected the Testosterone level to be very low though, so I was very surprised when I saw the results!

Testosterone was at 1014 ng/dL, normal range 241-827 ng/dL

or 29,4 nmol/L, normal range 6,9-27,8 nmol/L

Over the normal range!?

I'm not sure how to interpret these results, is this normal levels?

Could it be that I'm not suffering from any hormone defeciency after all or

should I go for more tests including SHBG (sexhormone-binding globulin) and Estradiol?

Maybe most of my Testosterone has been bound to SHBG and hence is not bioavailable?

Are there any other cheaper clinics in Pattaya where I can take second hand tests for comparison?

Thanks in advance!

Plahgat

Those are good numbers.

It's possible the T number is a fluke so get it tested down the road... Now you have a baseline number to compare.

You could get SHBG test but unless you really have issues I am not sure I would bother.

Eat lots broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, Kale etc which contain Dindolylmethanes and prevent SHBG from binding up your Free T.

Are there any health issues your concerned about? increase in body fat? lack of energy or muscle tone? water gain? man boobs? male pattern balding

The only concern I could see is if your T is converting to estrogen or DHT.

[Cobrabiker]

There is a lot of useful but a lot of wrong info here too.

First of all ANY form of exogenous testosterone will suppress your natural testosterone production, and that includes the Andriol. Secondly ANY form of testosterone (again including Andriol) will aromatize to the estrogen and potentially may cause some unwanted side effects such as gynocomastia. However it more depends on the dosage and should not occur at the doses recommended for the HRT. In case you didn't know, even your natural testosterone goes through the aromatization process, which is required for the proper hormone level production by your testes, but the amount of estrogen produced is not nearly enough to cause any side effects.

Actually I would like to correct myself. By any form of testosterone I mean to say any form of testosterone preparation, because the testosterone is just a testosterone, there is only one form of it, but there are many different forms of carrying medias that deliver and release it inside your body.

In Andriol, testosterone is suspended in the oil and get absorbed by the lymphatic system. There is one condition for this type to get proper absorption, one must take it with some fatty food otherwise not much of it will get absorbed and released into the bloodstream. In the long run it will get too expensive as it has to be taken daily. I would only recommend it to the needle-phobic individuals.

All of the injectable forms of testosterone is very cost effective as they need to be injected once every 2 to 4 weeks. There are different esters that have different time release.

Most common for the HRT is a Testosterone Enanthate (Testoviron Depot), which half life is about 2 weeks. From what I know, the recommended dosage is 250mg (1 ml) every 2 to 4 weeks. Bodybuilders take an average of 500mg every week, but higher dosages are not uncommon.

Sustanon was designed for HRT with injection intervals not more often than once a month but due to the negative aura surrounding the steroids, it's not prescribed for HRT nor for anything else as far as I am aware. Sustanon is a testosterone preparation made of 4 different time release esters which supposed to keep the test blood level more or less constant for about one month. The shortest acting Ester is a Propionate whith a half-life about 2 days and the logiest acting ester is an Isocaproate with a half-life of more than 3 weeks. The other 2 esters in Sustanon are somewhere in the middle. The myth that it needs to be injected every 2 days comes from the gym and is based on the shortest acting ester Propionate (which half-life of about 2 days) so to keep the test blood level uniform, it needs to be injected that often. To me it's just stupid, if someone wants to do injections every 2 days, they can just use the Testosterone Propionate by itself which is cheaper than the Sustanon, so in my opinion the best use for this preparation is a HRT.

Just on the descriptions of the Testosterone Enanthate (Test E) and Sustanone (Sust), which have different half-lifes, I would like to show that the 250 mg of Test E every 4 weeks will not give you the same results as 250 mg Sust every 4 weeks. While Sust will give you more or less constant test blood level for the whole 4 weeks, with Test E, you will get a bigger initial spike and later on the test blood level will drop and by the end of 4 weeks will be very low comparing to Sust. 250 mg (or 1 ml) of Test E every 2 weeks would be more comparable to 500 mg (or 2 ml) of Sust every 4 weeks. In both cases you would use 500 mg of test every month but with Sust twice less injections are required.

Now to all the opponents and haters of Testosterone Users (bodybuilders or people on HRT) - Before you cry out that testosterone will &lt;deleted&gt; you up, you should know the facts. The fact is, the teenage boys naturally produce more testosterone than some bodybuilders use (not all users are abuse steroids). The fact is even the higher doses that some bodybuilders use (1 mg of test per week or more for the duration of their cycles), will do less harm to your body than smoking and drinking every day (even if you aren't falling off the bar chair - you still causing harm), and I mean short term and a long term harm. If you like to be skinny/fat with a beer gut, or as tim armstrong pointed out, if you like feeling old, that is your choice - do not criticize people who think and do otherwise and who like to look and be big (not fat) and strong. Yes, in a sense testosterone can &lt;deleted&gt; you up, because men are known to make some decisions with their small head!

With all the health benefits Testosterone injections / pills will give you, there are some side-effects that are easily predictable, controllable, avoidable and are dose dependent. At the HRT there isn't any really to worry about. As the dose goes up, the gynocomastia may develop (different man have different tolerance to this), acne, hair-loss in men who has a predisposition, body hair growth, deepening of the voice, aggression (which may be a problem in some individuals). There are other medications to counter / control most of the side effects but as I already mentioned, however none of these will happen if you stay within the HRT recommended dose. Oh, yeah, forgot the indigenous testosterone production. Your testicles will stop producing the natural testosterone and in time WILL shrink because of inactivity. If you are taking the testosterone for the HRT purpose - your natural testosterone should be the least of your worries - you are already not producing enough and that is the whole purpose of HRT but if you still plan on having kids in the future, you need to keep your family jewels operational and there are other medications that would do the job, I won't discuss it in this topic.

And yeah, someone earlier mentioned the development of female characteristics when testosterone aromatize to estrogen... I would like to know what were they talking about... I don't know of any except of gynocomastia (which is preventable, controllable and reversable at the early stages) and maybe gaining some bodyfat as the estrogen is the only reason why the average female has higher percent bodyfat than the average male. Anyone else wants to tell me other characteristics I didn't know about? I really want to know. No? I love when people like to make up scarry stories with no evidence at all.

End of my rant. Sorry if it's too long and boring for some.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

After much research and finally I have decided to give it a shot, for a 250mg Testoviron Depot, for 500 baht, since the clinic I went to only have this, and another type that would last for 3 months but costs 9000 baht. I would like to know what other type of injectable testosterone that are available in clinics in Thailand? And has anyone try Sustanon, and how does the effect in libido and energy level compare to Testoviron 250mg?

The clinic I went to told me that it would last for a month, but from what I have read, it is 2 to 3 weeks only, so which is a better choice for TRT?

And also, I need a good Aromatise Inhibitor, to stop too much androgen to be converted to estrogen, and does this Proviron work? How much to take, and which is a better brand found in Thailand, Mesviron 25 or Provironum? How many tablets per day?(each tablet is 25mg) Do I need to take it more often and scale down when testosterone effect starts to diminish after the 2nd or 3rd week?

[tropo]

And also, I need a good Aromatise Inhibitor, to stop too much androgen to be converted to estrogen, and does this Proviron work? How much to take, and which is a better brand found in Thailand, Mesviron 25 or Provironum? How many tablets per day?(each tablet is 25mg) Do I need to take it more often and scale down when testosterone effect starts to diminish after the 2nd or 3rd week?

No one can tell you how much or even if you need Proviron. What you need to do is fork out for blood tests. Check your testosterone and estradiol levels before you make your decision. Each person would be different, so don't listen to what Joe blog has to say - test for yourself.

Here's a good idea. Get a testosterone and estradiol blood test before you start. After you have your first 250mg injection of Testoviron Depot (don't bother with Sustanon) test your testosterone and estradiol levels every 3 days (everyday would be even better - but it is quite expensive to test - the cheapest I can find is 600 baht each). This will tell you how long your levels will stay within normal range and how much estrogen you are producing. This will also tell you how often you need to inject and if you need proviron to combat high levels of estrogen. The object of TRT is to keep these hormones within the healthy normal range, and you'll never know without a lot of testing. You won't necessarily get symptoms if your estrogen goes above the healthy range, hence the importance of testing.

This is the proper way but because it involves a lot of extra expense it is seldom done. The doctors won't suggest it because they know you'd resist so much testing.

Edited May 5, 2012 by tropo

[Cobrabiker]

Get a testosterone and estradiol blood test before you start. After you have your first 250mg injection of Testoviron Depot

Ok, so it is this estradiol blood test, I will take note about it, but is proviron good enough to fight the conversion? I am not juicing it like those bodybuilders, so I guess no need Arimidex right?

Have already done a total testosterone test, 580 is it low? Have any idea how this Testoviron Depot work? How many days are require for it to take effect? I am guessing that this thing is releasing testosterone slowly and may peak around 5 days after injection, as what the doc said, right? So for AI, should I also increase the dosage as as it peak?

Why did you say don't bother with Sustanon? It lasts for a month and releases testosterone quite evenly, and maybe does not shock your system to shut down own production, isn't it better? I am just guessing, please explain, thanks.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Cobrabiker

[tropo]

Get a testosterone and estradiol blood test before you start. After you have your first 250mg injection of Testoviron Depot

Ok, so it is this estradiol blood test, I will take note about it, but is proviron good enough to fight the conversion? I am not juicing it like those bodybuilders, so I guess no need Arimidex right?

Have already done a total testosterone test, 580 is it low? Have any idea how this Testoviron Depot work? How many days are require for it to take effect? I am guessing that this thing is releasing testosterone slowly and may peak around 5 days after injection, as what the doc said, right? So for AI, should I also increase the dosage as as it peak?

Why did you say don't bother with Sustanon? It lasts for a month and releases testosterone quite evenly, and maybe does not shock your system to shut down own production, isn't it better? I am just guessing, please explain, thanks.

I say don't bother with Sustanon because it is garbage. The concept of mixing the 4 esters doesn't make sense and it was explained quite well in the above post you quoted from Shurup. Apart from that, the only Sustanon you can buy in Thailand will be black market. Do some research - there's plenty of info online.

The normal values for testosterone (total) are listed as 260 -1080 ng/dl by many labs. You're right in the middle, so we shouldn't even be having this conversation. YOU ARE NORMAL!

You would not be able to get a script for testosterone in first world countries with a normal level - period. For example, in Australia you would be lucky to score 125mg of testosterone per week even if you were below normal - because TRT is about bringing your levels into the normal range - not up to the high end. At normal HRT levels of supplementation anti-estrogens are NOT required. If you start using it at bodybuilding levels, you may require anti-estrogens depending on your dose. Proviron doesn't take care of estrogen - it prevents the conversion.

One you start TRT (which you don't need) there is no going back. Your balls will atrophy (shrink) and your own production will stop. If you've been using it for any length of time you will never get back to producing it yourself in any normal quantity.

If I was in your shoes I'd be looking for natural ways to optimize my testosterone levels. Save the TRT for when you really need it.

Edited May 6, 2012 by tropo

[Cobrabiker]

Thanks for the advice, by the way, is this depot the only testosterone available in clinics and hospitals in Thailand.

[KeyserSoze01]

To all the non-believers in TRT, here is a bit more anecdotal experience. TRT has changed my life for the better, no doubts. I have been injecting T for the last three years, along with B12 as prescribed by my physician. Prior to beginning treatment, I suffered all the common maladies associated with low-T. Once on the treatment, all of these maladies miraculously went away, including tendinitis in my elbows and bursitis in my shoulders. It does not work overnight, but you should notice significant improvements within 7 - 14 days. That is if you have low-T in the first place.

[tropo]

Thanks for the advice, by the way, is this depot the only testosterone available in clinics and hospitals in Thailand.

I'm not sure about that, but what else would you need. The only long life esters in normal use are cypionate and enanthate which are for all intents and purposes identical in their function. It's kind of like - do you prefer Pepsi or Coke.

There's a Thailand brand which is cheaper and one made in Germany (Schering). I'm not sure which the hospitals and clinic sell - I would imagine the Thailand made version.

Edited May 9, 2012 by tropo

[Cobrabiker]

Hi Keyser, do you use testoviron or other type & how many mg? And how often you inject?

I do notice that I do not get tired so much and better sleep, and more energy, so tropo, what do you think that if I reduce the dosage to 100mg, isn't that safer than the 250mg?

[tropo]

Hi Keyser, do you use testoviron or other type & how many mg? And how often you inject?

I do notice that I do not get tired so much and better sleep, and more energy, so tropo, what do you think that if I reduce the dosage to 100mg, isn't that safer than the 250mg?

Do you mean per week?

I don't think anyone needs more than 100mg per week for TRT. All you need to do is try the dose and test your levels. Usually the doctors are only giving 250mg once every 3 weeks anyway, so that's less than 100mg per week. I'm talking about doctors in developed countries where testosterone is only available by doctor's prescription.

[KeyserSoze01]

Hi Keyser, do you use testoviron or other type & how many mg? And how often you inject?

I inject .7ml per week, split between 2 doses, along with 1ml B-12 with each injection.

I am using Depo - Testosterone cypionate.

[starrdog]

I do the monthly sustanon injections along with Pure progesterone cream from Karuma (docsprefer.com) for my HRT. From what I've read, the best way to do test enanthate would be to inject 100mg weekly. I went with sust for the convenience as getting to a clinic is a pain. If the places that sold test enanthate also sold the syringes and needles to inject at home, I might reconsider switching from sust.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[moe666]

You really need to get the blood work done as Tropo says. Without the blood work you donot have a clue whats going on. One thing to consider taking is Liquid Zinc. Zinc blocks the amrotese conversion of T to estrogen. I am on HRT I use testosterone gel daily but for some reason I didn't seem to get the max. benefit. I made an appointment with a natural path that my son had visited, he had lazy sperm, well she prescribed the liquid Zinc. Within a few days I could tell the difference my libido was out the roof and I felt really good. I am trying to find the liquid zinc here in CM but so far no sucess. The reason for using the liquid zinc is the old standby not absorbing the zinc from pills.

[moe666]

Hi Keyser, do you use testoviron or other type & how many mg? And how often you inject?

I inject .7ml per week, split between 2 doses, along with 1ml B-12 with each injection.

I am using Depo - Testosterone cypionate.

What is the B-12 for in conjuction with the Testosterone.

[Tolley]

You really need to get the blood work done as Tropo says. Without the blood work you donot have a clue whats going on. One thing to consider taking is Liquid Zinc. Zinc blocks the amrotese conversion of T to estrogen. I am on HRT I use testosterone gel daily but for some reason I didn't seem to get the max. benefit. I made an appointment with a natural path that my son had visited, he had lazy sperm, well she prescribed the liquid Zinc. Within a few days I could tell the difference my libido was out the roof and I felt really good. I am trying to find the liquid zinc here in CM but so far no sucess. The reason for using the liquid zinc is the old standby not absorbing the zinc from pills.

Lots of men are zinc deficient and zinc is the number one important mineral for the prostate gland and sexual health for men.

The best brand of liquid zinc is the metagenics one which of course you cant get in Thailand but is available in Oz and online.

It is really easy to do a zinc test just drink a diluted amount of liquid zinc and if you taste very little then you are zinc deficient