Discrimination And The Military

[geriatrickid]

This ties into another item that really ticks me off - The job offer ads that specifically set out height, weight, age and sex requirements. The job discrimination allowances that even mention one's complexion, just boggle me at times. When will this change? Explains how people get marginalized into dead end jobs with no hope.

Don't know how many of you folks read the various newsfeeds but I found this one from the recent Pattaya News;

Transvestites registering for the military draft have been advised by the armed forces that they must revert to being men within 30 days of applying or they would be rejected on the grounds of being mentally unsuited to becoming trained killers.

Members of the third gender, who can face discrimination in their later careers if they are rejected for the draft on mental grounds, have protested that they can play an important role in the military, for example by working as nurses in the medical corps.

This year there were also 11 transvestites who met the age requirement. They too attended the selection process, adding a colorful atmosphere to the proceedings.

Some had already had sexual reassignment surgery, which eliminated them from the selection, despite a suggestion that they could become nursing officers and thereby avoid the stigma of being rejected on mental health grounds. Some who had not had surgery tried to hide their sexual orientation in the hope that the selection committee would not notice.

Another transvestite student, Piyapan Sakorn, said that the rules stated that a person who believed themselves to be transgendered had to "cure" themselves within 30 days, when they had to represent at the draft board. They had the opportunity to face the committee three times for assessment. Those who did not pass the masculinity test were rejected, and their record marked as being mentally unfit.

Aside from the chuckle factor over how someone is expected to "cure" himself, I found the article to be a bit of a reality check. This is how the Thai military thinks and the Thai military is without doubt one of the movers and shapers of all things in Thailand. Some people go on about how open Thailand is , and yet I think what we see here is a real piece of the reality.

Don't know why these people have to only consider being "nurses" which is even more idiotic if one considers that's all they think women are good for. Aside from it shining light onto a bit of reality some people don't want to hear about, it does also expose the perceptions about women. Aside from that, it crushed my adolescent fantasies about getting a sponge bath from a hot young nurse. .

This nonsense about hiding sexual orientation would seem to be more of a security risk than anything else. After all, how better to blackmail someone than to threaten to expose the "secret"?

Have to admit though it provides a lot of ideas for a few comedy movies involving transgendered "trained killers" to borrow the Pattaya news phrase.

Ahhh Thailand is always amazing aint it?

[PeaceBlondie]

Okay, geriatrickid, here comes my rant, which is basically anti-military. That is, nearly all military units are brainwashed by centuries of machismo bullshit that real men are not gay; gay men are not real men, they are only sissies. I think the general Thai population is far more accepting or tolerant of gay men, transvestites, and transgendered Thai men, than the Thai military is.

My favorite student, who died, was a 16-year old cadet, and openly gay but not a transvestite. At his funeral, he was given full military honors as a valued cadet. Two of his classmates were gay but not cadets. By being cadets, they could become exempt from conscription.

One of my friends here and on ThaiVisa is retired military, who had to stay in the closet his entire twenty years, or face a court martial just for being gay (even if he never had sex).

Other countries, however, allow openly gay men to enlist or to be conscripted.

But, the Thai military system still considers same-sex behavior to be a mental illness. How backward, how ignorant. The Thai military attitude does not reflect the attitude among civilians. In my arrogant, gay opinion.

[Neeranam]

Do you really expect a country's army to accept transvestites?

[mrtoad]

Do you really expect a country's army to accept transvestites?

I think it's more the issue on how they deal with them, and stigmatise them. The Thai Military need to get into a bit more of a modern way of thinking and realise that branding transvesties, gays etc mentally ill is not acceptable in this day and age and shows a realy ignorant and uninformed mind set.

[Neeranam]

Do you really expect a country's army to accept transvestites?

I think it's more the issue on how they deal with them, and stigmatise them. The Thai Military need to get into a bit more of a modern way of thinking and realise that branding transvesties, gays etc mentally ill is not acceptable in this day and age and shows a realy ignorant and uninformed mind set.

I agree. There are also disease, like drug addiction, that the government doesn't recognise. Like many things in Thailand, they are 40 years behind the West. They will eventually believe as we do, when we will have changed our minds again.

[PeaceBlondie]

We need to consider the effect of mandatory national conscription upon military policy. In an all-volunteer framework, as many nations have, they can be as homophobic as they wish about whom they wish to accept. But when they can force you to show up for conscription, and then brand you for life as mentally defective, the generals prove themselves to be mentally defective. Unless, of course, the generals are just obeying immoral orders forced upon them by the insane legislators.

[taxexile]

Transvestites registering for the military draft have been advised by the armed forces that they must revert to being men within 30 days of applying or they would be rejected on the grounds of being mentally unsuited to becoming trained killers.

recruit a few from pattaya and they wont need any training at all to become killers , it seems to come naturally to them.

[steveromagnino]

We need to consider the effect of mandatory national conscription upon military policy. In an all-volunteer framework, as many nations have, they can be as homophobic as they wish about whom they wish to accept. But when they can force you to show up for conscription, and then brand you for life as mentally defective, the generals prove themselves to be mentally defective. Unless, of course, the generals are just obeying immoral orders forced upon them by the insane legislators.

any one who wants to serve is tougher than I am.

Gay, straight or somewhere in between.

[RY12]

The job discrimination allowances that even mention one's complexion, just boggle me at times.

This happens in Thailand? They expressely ask for certain skin complexions?

[way2muchcoffee]

Indeed they do.

A few yeas ago I had a friend translate a sign on the door of Ekamai Major Cineplex. The advertisement was for a ticket-taker/cashier/concessions worker.

Wanted:

Thai Woman

Age: 18-30

Education: M3

Height: Between X cm and Y cm

Weight: Between A kg and B kg

Other: Must be attractive, personable, and have light-skin tone

[mrtoad]

The job discrimination allowances that even mention one's complexion, just boggle me at times.

This happens in Thailand? They expressely ask for certain skin complexions?

Yes, and as geriatrickid has said, there are certainly some interesting job adverts floating around. I'd have a field day in the UK filling out all those compo claims for discrimination, in fact it would become my full time job.

[RY12]

Indeed they do.

Height: Between X cm and Y cm

Weight: Between A kg and B kg

Other: Must be attractive, personable, and have light-skin tone

That's depressing. Well, I guess that's not as bad as racial discrimination, since I think skin tone is just viewed as something like hair color in Thailand (something not necessarily related to race, i.e. if you're darker it doesn't necessarily mean you're more aboriginal Austronesian, though I guess thais might see it as being more khmer). It's such an artificial characteristic to differentiate people by... correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we in the West have more 'sophisticated' and varied ideals of beauty than that... we don't automtically think a girl's beautiful based on one single characteristic.... in thailand it seems like a girl can be really ugly, but if she's white, everyone thinks she's beautiful... I know if you took a dark-skinned thai and plopped her in the West, most westerners would think she's more attractive than those boring looking white poster girls. right?

Edited April 22, 2008 by RY12

[PeaceBlondie]

When your personal tax return gets audited in the USA, you don't get to pick and choose your auditor. One day, with a splitting headache and acting as group manger, I received a call from an audited taxpayer (a real nut case, who could not even remember the year of his vintage Corvette that got damaged). He requested that his audit be reassigned to an older White man. He didn't know I was the only such animal in the office, and very unsympathetic. After telling him that his request was a violation of federal law, I said he would only be happy if he were audited by an attractive, young, Asian bimbo, and then I hung up on him and went home to bed.

Here, you don't have to be securing bimbo services to require attractive young Asian females for workers.

[Ijustwannateach]

There is some risk of moral hazard if there is no serious consequence associated with being rejected from the army: if there were no stigma, other potential cadets might pretend to be transvestites in an effort to escape conscription- it's not popular.

However, the lengths they go to are really unfair- a friend's Thai boyfriend was rejected on the basis of his being a ladyboy and his conscription card, which is a public record that he must produce to get many types of jobs, calls him "mentally unsound." This is for life!

Perhaps they need to do something more thorough along the lines of documenting their lifestyle- interview with a psychologist, photos of life at home, etc.- something that would take more effort than most fakers would go through, but something that would stand up to scrutiny; then they could be excused on the basis of being a ladyboy- which is a fact, and not an incorrect psychological profile.

"S"

[soundman]

I'm not going to enter the "gays wouldn't make good soldiers" debate because I think that is a load of crap. I've seen some gays who could kick Mike Tyson's arse to the other side of Sunday.

However,

I am a firm believer that any entity such as a business or a public institution should be able to accurately specify the type of personal it wants without some group or organisation pulling the discrimination card.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[onzestan]

I'm not going to enter the "gays wouldn't make good soldiers" debate because I think that is a load of crap. I've seen some gays who could kick Mike Tyson's arse to the other side of Sunday.

However,

I am a firm believer that any entity such as a business or a public institution should be able to accurately specify the type of personal it wants without some group or organisation pulling the discrimination card.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Exactly The racist card and insult is pulled out way too much and way too quickly. Pretty soon it will be racism to prefer a brunette over a blonde.

cheers also

onzestan

onzestan

[Huey]

I'm not going to enter the "gays wouldn't make good soldiers" debate because I think that is a load of crap. I've seen some gays who could kick Mike Tyson's arse to the other side of Sunday.

However,

I am a firm believer that any entity such as a business or a public institution should be able to accurately specify the type of personal it wants without some group or organisation pulling the discrimination card.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Exactly The racist card and insult is pulled out way too much and way too quickly. Pretty soon it will be racism to prefer a brunette over a blonde.

cheers also

onzestan

onzestan

Its not about "Transvestites don't make good soldiers, because men are men" Its not about the soldier it's about the UNIT. If I where a general in charge of these sort of things, I would have to ask myself, do I try and change the natural tendencies of 99% of my troops that for what ever irrelevant reason, to find trannies to be less of man then them, and there for untrustworthy and distracting? Or do I just drop that one percent and keep cohesiveness in the unit.

Open gayness in the military has never been a good thing, The Ottoman empire found that out the hard way when mid scale infighting broke out between officers over a who could screw some bath house boy who was good at pleasuring men.

This from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammam

"At times the relationship between a tellak and his client became intensely personal. It is recorded that in the mid-18th century, a janissary — an elite soldier in the Ottoman army, also often of European descent — had a tellak for a lover. When the latter was kidnapped by the men of another regiment and given over to the use of their commander, a days-long battle between the two janissary regiments ensued, which was brought to an end only when the Sultan ordered the tellak hanged."

I think the Thai military is probably right, they know the over all education level of their soldiers and they choose effectiveness over sensitivity. Good on them.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Huey

[suegha]

I'm not going to enter the "gays wouldn't make good soldiers" debate because I think that is a load of crap. I've seen some gays who could kick Mike Tyson's arse to the other side of Sunday.

However,

I am a firm believer that any entity such as a business or a public institution should be able to accurately specify the type of personal it wants without some group or organisation pulling the discrimination card.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Interesting post soundman. However, we have to be cautious. If, for example, I say I want only women for a particular role when men can do it equally, it's negative discrimination. In the UK there are very few GOQ's (Genuine Occupational Qualifications) and yet daily poeple are discriminated against because of race, creed, colour, etc, and not on their ability to do the job. This is wrong!

An example of a GOQ would be a womans rape crisis centre requesting female consellors. Or if I needed a tranlation into Thai, I could request that the applicants would have Thai as their first language - so 'most likely' a Thai person.

Rearding the op, sexual orientation in the military cannot be a GOQ!

[Gary A]

Since much prefer Thai women to pasty skinned Caucasian women, does that make me racist?

[astral]

Do you really expect a country's army to accept transvestites?

Why ever not?

Many countries accept women in the military and send them out to the front areas like Iraq.

It is interesting that the military do not discriminate against fat youngsters

who may also be "unsuitable as soldiers". After all if they cannot run and march long distances

they may hold back the whole platoon.

My nephew told me how these fat ones struggle on the basic training.

(He was lucky as he was comparatively fit.)

If these guys can be knocked into shape, why not the transvestites??

I should like to point out that the discrimination is not just on mental grounds.

A young man that I knew had had a motorcycle accident and required trepanning,

opening the skull, to relieve the pressure.

When he applied for military service he was rejected as a result of his previous injuries.

He told me that the military rejection slip would affect his future chances of employment.

[the highlander]

Since much prefer Thai women to pasty skinned Caucasian women, does that make me racist?

To many, the fact that you even think about females in that way would be enough to have you hung!!!

[astral]

Enough about women and skin colour.

This thread is about Transvestites and the Thai Military.

Astral

Moderator

[TheDon]

Well IMO females should never be in the front line, Trannies shouldnt be either as there not man enough to be on the frontline.

[steveromagnino]

my mother worked as an employment consultant/head hunter for a while.

Became really clear that whether you put it in the ad or not, a sexist or racist is not going to employ that 'darkie/coon/slag' etc (insert suitable slur) no matter what their experience or knowledge and no matter what the laws are.

All the laws in the world...and the company I worked for back in NZ basically managed out every executive woman from senior management because the CEO clearly was by deed (not by word) sexist.

Here it is overt, at least for sexism Thai women have way more chances in senior mgt than back home I would have thought.

As for the military, the reality is clear; if they want to serve, they should be given the chance (since it is conscription) and the flaming break a nail/mentally disturbed ladyboys plus the idiotic sensless blokes and moronic sons of politician type men should be given a 'not fit to serve' designation if they are indeed not fit to serve.

But if fit to serve...then they should have to.

Any same gender sex in the barracks is punished; any mixed gender sex in the barracks is similarly punished.

[soundman]

I'm not going to enter the "gays wouldn't make good soldiers" debate because I think that is a load of crap. I've seen some gays who could kick Mike Tyson's arse to the other side of Sunday.

However,

I am a firm believer that any entity such as a business or a public institution should be able to accurately specify the type of personal it wants without some group or organisation pulling the discrimination card.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Interesting post soundman. However, we have to be cautious. If, for example, I say I want only women for a particular role when men can do it equally, it's negative discrimination. In the UK there are very few GOQ's (Genuine Occupational Qualifications) and yet daily poeple are discriminated against because of race, creed, colour, etc, and not on their ability to do the job. This is wrong!

An example of a GOQ would be a womans rape crisis centre requesting female consellors. Or if I needed a tranlation into Thai, I could request that the applicants would have Thai as their first language - so 'most likely' a Thai person.

Rearding the op, sexual orientation in the military cannot be a GOQ!

I know where you are coming from suegha, however (at the risk of deviating slightly from topic ), from my point of view as a small business owner, I might want a person of a certain gender, age group, physical quality etc. to fill the job of, lets say, cabinet assembler.

Plenty of people outside that description would be suitable for that job, however, I would not feel comfortable working with them for a variety of reasons.

Therefore, as the business owner (MY BUSINESS ), should I be under constant threat of discrimination lawsuit? Of course not - however, this is the way things are heading in many western countries.

This is where all these frivalous discrimination lawsuits you see filed in the courts really start to get on my nerves.

Companies spending so much money on making sure they don't become un-PC or in any position to be accused of discriminatory hiring process, and therefore not getting the people they really want, it all adds up & substancially affects the bottom line and nett result is more expensive prices for everyone who uses their goods or services.

Getting back to topic at hand - I think the militaries argument may not necessarily be that gay people wouldn't make satisfactory soldiers, administrators, medical personal or other support personal within the army, but that the bulk of army personal may have a problem with a minority segment of the army having different sexual orientations.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[toptuan]

You oughta take a look at the forum threads evaluating airlines based on the physical attributes of their flight attendants--an then reevaluate who's racist and sexist!

[ozzydom]

Well IMO females should never be in the front line, Trannies shouldnt be either as there not man enough to be on the frontline.

A couple of rounds with famous Katoey fighter Nong Tum may give you a different perspective.

[cophen]

I'm not going to enter the "gays wouldn't make good soldiers" debate because I think that is a load of crap. I've seen some gays who could kick Mike Tyson's arse to the other side of Sunday.

However,

I am a firm believer that any entity such as a business or a public institution should be able to accurately specify the type of personal it wants without some group or organisation pulling the discrimination card.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Exactly The racist card and insult is pulled out way too much and way too quickly. Pretty soon it will be racism to prefer a brunette over a blonde.

cheers also

onzestan

onzestan

Its not about "Transvestites don't make good soldiers, because men are men" Its not about the soldier it's about the UNIT. If I where a general in charge of these sort of things, I would have to ask myself, do I try and change the natural tendencies of 99% of my troops that for what ever irrelevant reason, to find trannies to be less of man then them, and there for untrustworthy and distracting? Or do I just drop that one percent and keep cohesiveness in the unit.

Open gayness in the military has never been a good thing, The Ottoman empire found that out the hard way when mid scale infighting broke out between officers over a who could screw some bath house boy who was good at pleasuring men.

Open gayness doesn't seem to be doing British or Israeli forces much harm.

[astral]

But the old maxim of "No Sex Please, We Are British" still applies.

[Johpa]

Indeed they do.

Height: Between X cm and Y cm

Weight: Between A kg and B kg

Other: Must be attractive, personable, and have light-skin tone

That's depressing. Well, I guess that's not as bad as racial discrimination, since I think skin tone is just viewed as something like hair color in Thailand (something not necessarily related to race, i.e. if you're darker it doesn't necessarily mean you're more aboriginal Austronesian, though I guess thais might see it as being more khmer). It's such an artificial characteristic to differentiate people by... correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we in the West have more 'sophisticated' and varied ideals of beauty than that... we don't automtically think a girl's beautiful based on one single characteristic.... in thailand it seems like a girl can be really ugly, but if she's white, everyone thinks she's beautiful... I know if you took a dark-skinned thai and plopped her in the West, most westerners would think she's more attractive than those boring looking white poster girls. right?

Wrong. It is a hiring code that infers that Isaan folks and other ethnic Tai people need not apply and that there is a strong preference for Thai-Chinese hires. It is a code understood by most Thai people when reading the want-ads.