Vipassana Meditation

[BFD]

Hi folks, I'd like some anecdotes here. I'm not sure what forum to put this in, but I know that it does NOT belong in the Buddhist forum.

I've recently applied (and been accepted) for a 10-day meditation retreat in Kanchanaburi with Vipissana instruction being the goal. Here's the website, if you're unfamiliar with it (Buddha knows, I am!):

dhamma.org/

Anyway, I'd like to hear from some people who have gone through the course. I've searched through the forums and come up with the usual 'It will change' your life-style cheerleading, but I'd really like to hear even a vague description of exactly what has been changed. Also, what initially drew you to the course in the first place? What did you hope to get out of it? What was it actually like when it was going on?

For myself, I stumbled upon it by accident and just decided to read the section entitled 'What is Vipissana?' I was pleasantly surprised when I was told that religion and worship plays no part in the retreat. Being a devout atheist, this pleased me greatly. I am planning on doing this to learn ways to manage stress in daily life, but I have to admit that I am completely new to this. Meditation is something I am completely ignorant about. Additionally, I am about as un-spiritual and skeptical a person as you will ever meet.

So, bottom line; can anyone relate their experiences (before, during, and after) with Vipassana Meditation?

Thanks kindly,

BFD!

EDIT: spelling and additional questions.

Edited May 1, 2008 by BFD

[RueFang]

Hi BFD. I did a 10 day Vipassana meditation at Suan Mok, Surat Thani a couple of years ago that sounds pretty much the same as this one, although we did yoga for an hour every morning also.

It is really hard work. The first 3 days or so are fine but by days 5-6 you (I) really found it very difficult to maintain the meditations as my mind was going into overdrive, having nothing else to do. We observed silence for the 10 days and on day 6 I needed to speak with one of the teachers who really knew all the right things to say and calmed me down. The rest was still challenging, but I went there with a purpose to learn to quiet my mind, etc and the rewards at the completion of the 10 days are amazing. I felt really cleansed physically (from eating only twice a day vegetarian and daily yoga) and mentally and did learn to meditate on a deeper level then I previously had.

The first few months after the course I was good with keeping up meditations but it faded with time in my case! I did learn a lifelong technique though to quiet my mind, so even if I don't meditate that often now, I still know how to reach that peace and practice what I learned there. One of the hardest things on the course is sitting for so long in the meditation postures...sore back and knees from hours of sitting. The walking meditations are good!! We also got up at 4am every day and in the free time sessions after lunch I would always have a nap. They ring bells to change activities so you can't sleep through! As you have no experience with meditation I think you will find it particularly challenging, but take advantage of going to talk to a teacher if you are finding it all too much. In the silence your mind plays tricks on you, thoughts go around and around unceasingly - the trick and challenge is to push it all out and be silent! Hardest thing you'll ever do but definitely worth it.

Best of luck.

[Kerry]

I did the one in Prachinburi, but it will be the same. It was really tough at first, doing the same thing at the same time every day was difficult in the beginning, but as the days went by, started really getting into it and focussed.

Goenka is really good, and when you watch his discourses it's like he's read your mind. Be prepared to take it seriously, its 10 hours of meditation per day, starting at 4:30am. Noble silence is observed, but this is actually a blessing - when you're not meditating you'll be in a very reflective frame of mind, and the last thing you will want to do is make small talk.

You will feel some very intense sensations. Well, I did, but remember its a very personal journey, so don't compare to others. I got very emotional as well after some of the sessions, but I guess that's what 'healing your mind' is all about.

I felt more balanced and focused after the course, which is great because I'm at a crossroads in my life, and I think the meditation helped me to make the right decisions.

Good luck! During the course you might feel like you just wanna go home, but stick it out, stay focused, it's worth it in the end.

[Neeranam]

It is really hard work. The first 3 days or so are fine but by days 5-6 you (I) really found it very difficult to maintain the meditations as my mind was going into overdrive, having nothing else to do. We observed silence for the 10 days and on day 6 I needed to speak with one of the teachers who really knew all the right things to say and calmed me down. The rest was still challenging, but I went there with a purpose to learn to quiet my mind, etc and the rewards at the completion of the 10 days are amazing. I felt really cleansed physically (from eating only twice a day vegetarian and daily yoga) and mentally and did learn to meditate on a deeper level then I previously had.

I did the same course 10 years ago. It drove me crazy and the first thing I did after the 10 days was get wasted. However after I stopped using these places as a cheap detox, I got some benefits from Vipassana.

OP, be careful - you might have a spiritual experience.

[sabaijai]

Don't expect too much. But expect it to be tough. At the beginning you'll sit before a mountain and fear the impossibility of lifting it. Then when you've lifted it and are holding it over your heard, you'll fear not being able to put it down. Then when the mountain is back sitting before you, your fear will be gone. Till next time that is.

[BFD]

Don't expect too much. But expect it to be tough. At the beginning you'll sit before a mountain and fear the impossibility of lifting it. Then when you've lifted it and are holding it over your heard, you'll fear not being able to put it down. Then when the mountain is back sitting before you, your fear will be gone. Till next time that is.

Whew! That sounds pretty daunting, and I appreciate the forewarning. Thanks to everyone who has posted.

I don't foresee this being a cakewalk, that's for sure. While I consider myself to be a pretty introspective person, I know that I've never been faced with the reality of ten days of thinking. I'm pretty sure there are some dark places in my head that I have rationalized into near-oblivion, and they will come out to feed on me in my vulnerable state. I'm cool with that, I think.

Again, thanks to everyone for their words of encouragement. I am doing the retreat from July 16-27, so I'll let you know how it goes after that.

BFD!

[chatette]

BFD, It's not 10 days of thinking. It's 10 days of 'letting go' of thoughts, sensations, feelings. You don't follow the thought, feeling, sensation at all. You acknowledge it then move your mind back to your breathing or walking or eating or whatever technique you happen to be focusing on. The purpose is to clear your mind, which you'll find one of the toughest things to do. It's amazing how much goes on in there. Although I don't practise often now, I still use the technique to quieten down when I'm feeling stressed about something. It's great.

[BFD]

Again, thank you guys for the clarifications; this is exactly why I posted here.

The only thing I find scarier than 10 days of thinking is 10 days of NOT thinking, so this should be an interesting experience.

Actually, from that last sentence, it seems like I'm a pretty good candidate for the retreat, as I really don't think I've shut off my brain since I gained consciousness in the 80s.

BFD!

[Austhaied]

Don't expect too much. But expect it to be tough. At the beginning you'll sit before a mountain and fear the impossibility of lifting it. Then when you've lifted it and are holding it over your heard, you'll fear not being able to put it down. Then when the mountain is back sitting before you, your fear will be gone. Till next time that is.

Whew! That sounds pretty daunting, and I appreciate the forewarning. Thanks to everyone who has posted.

Not as daunting as remaining in the realm of ignorance due to desire.

Vippassana is not something worth doing, it's the only thing worth doing.

Looking within is the only way out.

Good luck.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Austhaied

[cmsally]

It is really hard work. The first 3 days or so are fine but by days 5-6 you (I) really found it very difficult to maintain the meditations as my mind was going into overdrive, having nothing else to do. We observed silence for the 10 days and on day 6 I needed to speak with one of the teachers who really knew all the right things to say and calmed me down. The rest was still challenging, but I went there with a purpose to learn to quiet my mind, etc and the rewards at the completion of the 10 days are amazing. I felt really cleansed physically (from eating only twice a day vegetarian and daily yoga) and mentally and did learn to meditate on a deeper level then I previously had.

I did the same course 10 years ago. It drove me crazy and the first thing I did after the 10 days was get wasted. However after I stopped using these places as a cheap detox, I got some benefits from Vipassana.

OP, be careful - you might have a spiritual experience.

I did the same course at Suan Mokh and seem to remember it started off with at least 50 + plus people and ended up with about 6 of us.

I then did another course which was 30 days, interestingly a much lower drop out rate but then far fewer people who all had meditation experience.

It is basically not thinking and it becomes glaringly obvious about the constant narration that continuously goes on in your head. If you are a person that naturally likes to observe and listen as well as not mind spending long periods alone, then it will definitely be easier.

[plachon]

I did the Goenka meditation course at a centre in Pitsanuloke about 4 years ago. A deep and intense experience, but unfortunately it didn't turn me into a life-long practitioner. I'm quite introspective anyway, so there were elements of meditation in my everyday life anyway, but I do sometimes wish I could switch off the internal voice (monkey!) at will.

One thing about the course is that it gave me some of the most intense dreams I've experienced since I was a kid. And really graphic dreams too, a lot of them about sexual fantasies but some nightmares too, which was a bit disconcerting at the time. Think it kind of exorcises some of your demons a bit and refreshes you, when you return to "normal" society.

It was interesting too, trying to dodge the people that just couldn't resist trying to communicate with their fellow learners. I became quite adept at avoiding these dudes who use their eyes to try and catch you out and have a quick chat on the sly!

[BFD]

Once again, some very informative posts. For the most part, you guys have been able to avoid the vague "It'll change you" kind of posts, and for that I thank you.

Also, about dreams/nightmares: I'm one of those strange folks that almost never remembers his dreams. Honestly, I would say it's about once every 2 or three months that I'll be able to recall what I was dreaming about. I wonder, exactly, if this same intense dreaming will also occur to me. Perhaps my brain doesn't want me to see my dreams for a reason. If that's the case, I wanna know why!

I am also a fairly introspective fella, so I think I'll be somewhat equipped to avoid the people that want to distract me.

As I said before, I was drawn to this particular retreat because of the non-religious, non-profit claims made on their website. Can you tell me if they back this up with real action? I mean, are there any cultish or "Give us all your money" aspects to the retreat. Believe me, I ask this with no preconceptions; I simply want to have as much information as possible.

Thanks again,

BFD!

[clausewitz]

Once again, some very informative posts. For the most part, you guys have been able to I mean, are there any cultish or "Give us all your money" aspects to the retreat. Believe me, I ask this with no preconceptions; I simply want to have as much information as possible. Thanks again, BFD!

There used to be the vipassana.cult.co.uk website about them - closed down now.

[joyfarmer]

Friends, seekers, fellow meditators,

Yes, vipassana, vipassana, vipassana. It truly is Good.

And yet it gives me great joy to share with you, something, perhaps even better, for those of you who are ready.

For many Tibetan monks, vipassana is a preliminary practice for other, more advanced practices.

Vipassana is undoubtedly an incredible, tried and tested technique, that has brought profound benefit to countless people, including myself. I've done 9 ten day retreats and served 6. I love vipassana meditation, and believe I always will. It does give profoundly positive results.

But there is more.

Sensations are subtle, true. And even Goenka says to focus on that which is most subtle.

So what is subtler than the sensations themselves?

Well, how about the awareness that is aware of the sensations? How subtle is that? Is there anything more subtle? Or anything less tangible?

There is a teacher living - ironically - in Bangkok (I think he is still living there... was there a year ago anyway) that teaches this method of the Awareness of Awareness. He used to have a site with a phone number on it... I'll post it later if I can find it.

This method brought me to whole new place in my practice. Or, at least, it brought me to a place where I know that the essential Self (or non-self if you're a Buddhist) is infinite, blissful in it's effulgent essenslessness, and totally beyond the realm of thought-mind at the same time. And it has always been there.

Basically this teaching openned me up completely.

And it was so simple.

And painless!!!!!!

Painless because the ultimate truth is neither pleasure nor pain.

But to get there, one needs the awareness to turn in on itself - so see itself.

The awareness of awareness.

So how does that work? Well, there are a few different methods, but usually one must have the karma (or luck if you like) to be in the presence of an accomplished guru who has attained the ultimate Truth, using that method, to truly understand and internalize them.

In short, to realize the ultimate Truth, one must focus on the awareness itself, which is subtler than the subtlest sensation.

What you focus on, grows.

This is why it is very powerful to focus on the awareness itself - if you can.

Perhaps not everyone is ready for this method. But for those of you who are, I do recommend checking to see if this teacher is still kicking around. Here's his site:

www.peacefulnessmeditation.blogspot.com

[joyfarmer]

By the way, here's an excerpt from Wikipedia's article on Dzogchen which I found particularly helpful towards my own practice; perhaps it may be of benefit to yours also...

"Our ultimate nature is said to be pure, all-encompassing, primordial awareness. This "intrinsic awareness" has no form of its own and yet is capable of perceiving, experiencing, reflecting, or expressing all form. It does so without being affected by those forms in any ultimate, permanent way. The analogy given by Dzogchen masters is that one's nature is like a mirror which reflects with complete openness but is not affected by the reflections, or like a clear, transparent crystal ball that takes on the colour of the material on which it is placed without itself being changed. Other evocative phrases used by masters describe it as an "effulgence", an "all-pervading fullness" or as "space that is aware". When an individual is able to maintain the dzogchen state continually, he or she no longer experiences dukkha, or feelings of discontent, tension and anxiety in everyday life. (Compare with nirvana)."

[CaptHaddock]

I am also a fairly introspective fella, so I think I'll be somewhat equipped to avoid the people that want to distract me.

When meditation people talk about "introspection" it has nothing to do with the kind of thinking-about-myself that we call "introspection" in everyday speech. The meditation kind of introspection is observing the mind and takes intense effort.

[markwhite]

'It will change' your life-style cheerleading, but I'd really like to hear even a vague description of exactly what has been changed.

I've attended the 10 day meditation retreat at Suan Mokkh 6 times now, and done 21 days at Wat Phra That Doi Suthep in Chiang Mai. I'd easily recommend Suan Mokkh over Doi Suthep.

For me, the first time I went I had the experience of holding up a mirror to myself. I was quite paranoid (not freakishly so, more that I didn't like to be the focus of attention and felt uncomfortable when I thought I was) and for a few days I thought that people were watching what I was doing. About day 4 I had the experienced realisation (*not* logically deduced - it was experienced) that everyone else seemed to be concentrating one what they were doing and didn't seem to be paying any attention to me. So it must all be in my head. I stopped worrying about it from that moment on.

I was also dealing with a of of anger, and things happened on the retreat that gave me a lot of opportunity to experience it in an environment that was somehow safe or more isolated than in everyday life. It's the mirror thing again: things can be seen for what they are, not what they appear to be. Anyway, I had a snorer next door - either that or he was trying to tunnel out at night with a pneumatic drill. I lay awake in bed full of weird fantasies about flicking lighted matches at his mosquito net and burning him to death, or ambushing him in the morning and cutting his throat. Very weird at the time, but there was a quality to thinking like this that made it irrelevant. They were thoughts, and the thoughts were unpleasant and socially unacceptable, certainly unacceptable to act them out anyway, but they did go away and I did get back to sleep. Snorers just do not bother me now.

During the Doi Suthep retreat, there was a family of dogs with a load of new puppies sleeping under the house. Well, howling all night as I tried to get by on 3 or 4 hours sleep. I wished them dead at times, and was woken up one morning by terrible screaming that I found out later was one of them being killed by another dog. Going through that experience left me with the ability to not care about howling dogs, and to be careful about wishing harm on others. There was just nothing else to do but learn how to accept what was going on and understand the nature of the feelings that these situations caused to arise.

Some very simple examples, but it can be problematic discussing the deep stuff in public.

Anyway. Ultimately, that's the main thing for me. There is nothing to do but sit and learn (through observation) about the true nature of thoughts, feelings and emotions and what they really are. Insights can occur, maybe minor ones such as those that I have described, or major ones that really can shake the foundations of your world. They give you an undeniable and unforgettable experience of the nature of your existence and in that process can cause aspects of your life to have their perceived level of importance instantly negated. Some things just cease to matter. Other things become seriously significant.

What was it actually like when it was going on?

It's going on anyway, now, as you read this. A retreat just takes away all of the distractions so...it's like being given a powerful magnifying glass that allows you to look at your life very closely, and very clearly. I found these were the effects of early retreats and practice anyway. After the initial life problems have been looked at and start to make sense, the results can all get quite bizarre.

It's tough, if you really get on with it. I've been there when people were spinning cushions on their fingers because they were bored, sniggering together in groups, or even doing somersaults over the dining room railings. Which is great stuff for generating a bit of anger, if that's one of your fundamental problems. Which it is for most people. And people drop out, with an average of 70% completing the retreat. One person I met left on day 9 because they couldn't stick with the regime. People don't like to have to look at themselves, and this is why drink, drugs, TV, the Internet and any other form of distraction are so popular. They prevent people from having to do the Real Work. Go on a retreat, and you can distract yourself if you want to, but it rather misses the point.

I was pleasantly surprised when I was told that religion and worship plays no part in the retreat. Being a devout atheist, this pleased me greatly.

If you're interested, try to find a copy of No Religion by Buddhadasa Bhikku, the founder of the Suan Mokkh retreats. It will give you an idea of the approach taken there. There isn't even a single buddha image in the place. The chanting is optional as it is accepted it can conflict with others beliefs, and it is suggested that you show your respects at various times by doing the forehead-to-the-ground bow, but most people don't.

Meditation is something I am completely ignorant about. Additionally, I am about as un-spiritual and skeptical a person as you will ever meet.

All completely unimportant really. The Buddha did something and said to other people: this is what I did and this is the result I had - try it and see for yourself. Believing nothing at face value and questioning (not just "doubting") everything is encouraged. Buddhadasa (and the Dalai Lama from memory) both compare it to modern scientific method giving an experiment that produces definite, verifiable results and asking for peer review. And Buddhism as a religion seems very different from the teachings of the Buddha, just as the Church appears to be an organisation operating in a way somewhat distanced from Christ's original teachings.

And as someone else warned - accept where this takes you. If you are an un-spiritual and skeptical type and attach strongly to those labels, you might have a difficult time if you have a spiritual experience that you cannot accept, or that leads you to a level of belief that belies your skeptical character. If this is likely to be a problem for you, it might be better for you not to go.

A quote I like is something like "If you have not started on the spiritual path, it is best not to start. But if you have already started, it's best to finish".

It can lead you to a life filled with terrible suffering and incredible delight. It's not easy, but very rewarding. Stay ignorant if you want to. It can be a lot simpler that way. I found I only appreciated this once I started on the path. It was a lot easier when I spent most of my life living in a bottle. But hey, I get incredible benefits that I never thought possible, so I'm not complaining :-)

I've gone on a bit. Last one (if this is allowed mods, if not - sorry and please delete the link) is a link to a website with lots of information about the retreat at Suan Mokkh - http://suanmokkh.everythinginnakhon.info

Oh, and if you want a (possibly) definitive guide of what happens long-term as progression along the path is achieved, this link gives far too much detail and can be a bit scary or unbelievable to most people: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml

[tjansen]

If anyone is still reading this thread, my input:

I attended the 10-day retreat at Suan Mokkh the first opportunity I had after someone told me about it, February 2009. I was very captured by the Dhamma as an explanation of reality that clicked with me. Yes, the sitting was very demanding. I came home and meditated off and on, which is a lot more than I have been able to accomplish in my 60+ years. On the train home to Ratchaburi Province, a fellow retreatant mentioned Goenka. Once home, I read some emotional reviews on the Goenka retreats, some in favor and some vehemently opposed. This I had to look into.

So in September, this year, I went to the Kanchanaburi Goenka center for a 10-day retreat. The Goenka version is what I definitely recommend. The sitting, toward the middle and end, was more intense, called sittings of strong determination, but not a killer. One very positive thing for me about this retreat was that all of the Discourses were given by Goenka via DVD. I know we got the direct message. And in contrast, looking back at Suan Mokkh, all of the Dhamma talks were given by individuals, subject to their personal experience.

As a side note, there are Goenka centers around the world, making it convenient to get to. Both Suan Mokkh and Goenka are free, relying on contributions from people who have finished a course.

Some people in their forums complained about the impersonal approach of a DVD. For the benefit for my time invested, I was very grateful it was done that way. At the end of the course, Goenka requested us to meditate for two hours per day, for one year, to give his method a fair trial. So far, I have adhered rather closely to that schedule, which is remarkable for me. I have wanted to meditate since 1981 when I joined AA, but have never gotten it together.

I am glad I retired to Thailand to find meditation, glad I was introduced to Suan Mokkh and glad that I went on to Goenka.