Weird Back-formation

[Xangsamhua]

I know this isn't "Thai language", but it's related and I don't know where else to put it.

Just saw this on another TV sub-forum:

"He has to go to Lao to get his B (teachers) visa." Then a question followed about "the Thai Embassy in Lao".

It now seems common practice for foreigners here to say "Lao" when they are referring, not to the language or the people, but to the country. I assume it comes from "Lao PDR", though this would normally have a definite article. It seems ugly to me and really odd. I don't hear people saying they have to go to "Thai", nor that they need a visa for "Indian" or that they're returning to live in "English".

I now hear Lao people saying "si pai Lao" etc, and I assume they've adopted it as a back-formation from the incorrect but increasingly common usage by foreigners. I don't recollect when I lived in Laos (30 years ago), or when I spoke with people from the Lao diaspora up until fairly recently, any Lao people using the adjective "Lao" without a preceding subject (mueang, khon, phasaa, etc.), but in the last couple of years I have.

Should I be annoyed when I hear foreigners misuse the adjective "Lao" as a noun or am I just being pedantic and fussy?

[DavidHouston]

From Wikipedia:

"Etymology In the Lao language, the country's name is "Meuang Lao". The Imperial French, who made the country part of French Indochina in 1893, spelled it with a final silent "s", i.e. "Laos" (The Lao language itself has no final 's' sound, so Lao people do not pronounce the word Laos). The usual adjectival form is "Lao", e.g. "the Lao economy", not the "Laotian" economy--although "Laotian" is used to describe the people of Laos to avoid confusion with the Lao ethnic group. "

Therefore, is seems to me, if a foreigner is going to refer to the country in common parliance, saying "Lao" is more reflective of the native original pronunciation. Besides, it is difficult to see the French as any sort of colonial heros.

[CSS]

I know this isn't "Thai language", but it's related and I don't know where else to put it.

Just saw this on another TV sub-forum:

"He has to go to Lao to get his B (teachers) visa." Then a question followed about "the Thai Embassy in Lao".

It now seems common practice for foreigners here to say "Lao" when they are referring, not to the language or the people, but to the country. I assume it comes from "Lao PDR", though this would normally have a definite article. It seems ugly to me and really odd. I don't hear people saying they have to go to "Thai", nor that they need a visa for "Indian" or that they're returning to live in "English".

I now hear Lao people saying "si pai Lao" etc, and I assume they've adopted it as a back-formation from the incorrect but increasingly common usage by foreigners. I don't recollect when I lived in Laos (30 years ago), or when I spoke with people from the Lao diaspora up until fairly recently, any Lao people using the adjective "Lao" without a preceding subject (mueang, khon, phasaa, etc.), but in the last couple of years I have.

Should I be annoyed when I hear foreigners misuse the adjective "Lao" as a noun or am I just being pedantic and fussy?

I wouldn't be upset by it or consider it a back translation. As you know from living in both Laos (Lao country) and interaction with Lao (or should we write laoitian?)people, the language has never pronounced their country name with an "s." In fact there isn't a final consonant "s" sound in the language. The "s" came along through foreigners during the French Colonial period I would imagine. The way I see it the "s" was just part of an initial improper pronunciation so by means of correction I say Lao in most situations. For ease I will go back to saying Laos when speaking with friends from back in the US as they would only know of the country (if at all unfortunately) when spoken with the 's.' The same goes for saying Lao vs Laoitian. I just really don't like the sound of Laoitian.

In relation to Lao(itian) people dropping the Mueang, or pathet before saying Lao, I don't know. I doubt it is a back translation but it may just be a lazy abbreviated sentence construction, though I can't recall hearing it myself during my travels there.

edit: superseded by David's post while I was writing mine. He covers what I was attempting to say better anyway.

Edited May 1, 2008 by CSS

[Xangsamhua]

I know this isn't "Thai language", but it's related and I don't know where else to put it.

Just saw this on another TV sub-forum:

"He has to go to Lao to get his B (teachers) visa." Then a question followed about "the Thai Embassy in Lao".

It now seems common practice for foreigners here to say "Lao" when they are referring, not to the language or the people, but to the country. I assume it comes from "Lao PDR", though this would normally have a definite article. It seems ugly to me and really odd. I don't hear people saying they have to go to "Thai", nor that they need a visa for "Indian" or that they're returning to live in "English".

I now hear Lao people saying "si pai Lao" etc, and I assume they've adopted it as a back-formation from the incorrect but increasingly common usage by foreigners. I don't recollect when I lived in Laos (30 years ago), or when I spoke with people from the Lao diaspora up until fairly recently, any Lao people using the adjective "Lao" without a preceding subject (mueang, khon, phasaa, etc.), but in the last couple of years I have.

Should I be annoyed when I hear foreigners misuse the adjective "Lao" as a noun or am I just being pedantic and fussy?

I wouldn't be upset by it or consider it a back translation. As you know from living in both Laos (Lao country) and interaction with Lao (or should we write laoitian?)people, the language has never pronounced their country name with an "s." In fact there isn't a final consonant "s" sound in the language. The "s" came along through foreigners during the French Colonial period I would imagine. The way I see it the "s" was just part of an initial improper pronunciation so by means of correction I say Lao in most situations. For ease I will go back to saying Laos when speaking with friends from back in the US as they would only know of the country (if at all unfortunately) when spoken with the 's.' The same goes for saying Lao vs Laoitian. I just really don't like the sound of Laoitian.

In relation to Lao(itian) people dropping the Mueang, or pathet before saying Lao, I don't know. I doubt it is a back translation but it may just be a lazy abbreviated sentence construction, though I can't recall hearing it myself during my travels there.

edit: superseded by David's post while I was writing mine. He covers what I was attempting to say better anyway.

Thank you, David and CSS, for your responses. I agree that the term "Laotian" is contrived and have hardly ever used it or heard it used by Lao people, except when referring specifically to nationality, as distinct from ethnicity (about 35% of people in Laos are not ethnic Lao). In Lao (language), people of non-Lao ethnicity who are Lao nationals would be "khon Lao" or "sanxart Lao" when referring to their nationality, but "Maew" (Hmong), Tai Dam, Kha, Viet or whatever when noting their ethnicity.

I know the term "Laos" comes from the French and therefore could be regarded as inauthentic, but it is still useful in order to avoid using the adjective "Lao" without a preceding noun (in Lao) or following noun (in English). To use an adjective without the noun it describes still seems weird to me.

[withnail]

When I hear the final s pronounced in Laos it reminds me of Vietnam war films, I'm pretty sure I've only generally heard Americans pronounce it this way although I can't honestly remember how someone in the UK would say it.

I think referring to people as Lao rather than Laotian is often a sign of having heard the term being used in this region, well Thailand for me as I've never been to Laos.

Edited May 1, 2008 by withnail

[Rikker]

It seems it's a reflection of hearing the native usage, which doesn't require a distinction between noun and adjective forms. Native using is definitely not mimicking some corrupt foreign usage, or anything like that. For example, "Thai" as a noun meaning "Thailand" is extremely common in both the spoken Thai language and in news reporting, and same is true for Lao meaning "Laos", as well as Chiin meaning "China", etc., without Mueang in front.

To hear foreigners do this with Laos does go against the Western convention, but that convention is based on the letter-for-letter (mis)pronunciation of French spelling.

Similarly, Cambodia (pronounced cam-bo-dee-ya) is also a relic of misinterpreted orthography (the 'di' would have been pronounced by the French as 'j', approximating the native pronunciation 'Kampuchea'). And though it's dying off, you still hear Vietnam pronounced as if it rhymes with 'ham'.

None of these conventional mispronunciations are a big deal in my mind, because, well, that's the convention. But it's probably not worth getting bothered about if they're broken in favor of more native-like usage. It seems to me rather like complaining if people don't pronounce the 's' in Illinois (since, after all, the natives don't).

[Xangsamhua]

For example, "Thai" as a noun meaning "Thailand" is extremely common in both the spoken Thai language and in news reporting, and same is true for Lao meaning "Laos", as well as Chiin meaning "China", etc., without Mueang in front.

Thanks Rikker. We all seem to have a bit of a different take on this question. However, I shall pay more attention to Thai speakers now, as I don't recollect hearing them use the term "Thai" without proceeding it by "mueang", "prathet", "khon", "phasaa" or whatever except where it's understood, as in (oh dear!) "Thai Rak Thai", "kin Thai" (i.e. food, - do people actually say that?). It may occur in songs, though (e.g. the hymn "Rak phrachao rao pen thai", but in this case "thai" has the general meaning of "free person"). To go on, there's also a street in Vientiane called "Sam Sen Thai", meaning 300,000 freemen and the name of a prominent king).

I'm sure you're right, and others agree with you, that if someone - farang or native - says, "well, I'm off to Lao tomorrow" it shouldn't cause one's toes to curl, but I just happen to like the old way (add the "s" when speaking English and the preceding noun when speaking Lao or Thai) and wondered if there was an issue of "correctness" or otherwise.

Incidentally, Grant Evans has a little sermonette on the matter at the beginning of his Short History of Laos.

[sabaijai]

The reason the French spelt the name 'Laos' originally was because when they arrived on the scene, what we call Laos today was three kingdoms: Luang Prabang, Vientiane and Champasak. At least that's what a French scholar once told me.

I've heard plenty of Brits and Aussies say 'Laos' with the /s/, doesn't appear to me to be an American usage in particular.

[Rikker]

Particularly in the news you'll see constructions like, say, จีน did this, but ไทย did this in response, probably referring to their governments, as representative of the whole nation. You might see a news story in the near future like ไทยคว้าเหรียญทอง "Thailand takes the gold" (maybe). There's a tourism slogan เที่ยวทั่วไทย. A friend might ask เคยไปเที่ยวลาวหรือยัง.

Etc. It's limited to certain contexts, but it's common enough.

Edited May 3, 2008 by Rikker

[toptuan]

Well, at least I haven't heard anyone here in SE Asia use the pronunciation common back in my home country: "Lay-os" (stress on first syllable, then short o).

[Rikker]

Reminds me of an exchange I saw on King of the Hill the better part of a decade ago. Lao neighbor moves in next door. This is my recollection of the scene:

Hank: So are you Chinese or Japanese?

Neighbor: Laotian! Laotian!

Other redneck character: What ocean?

[pause]

Hank: So... are you Chinese or Japanese?

I'm sure there was more to it than that, but it still amuses me...

Edited May 6, 2008 by Rikker