Question For Europeans

[samran]

They said because I will be living in Amsterdam, I am not taxed (other than social security) on the amount up to $87k because of the foreign earned income credit. Above and beyond that, I will be taxed as an American only (maybe 30%), as they are saying there is a tax treaty between the US/Netherlands.

It's hard to understand that you won't be taxed for earnings of up to 87K - sounds like tax free Dubai.

the yanks will tax your overseas income if you are a US citizen regardless of if you are already paying tax on it. They won't tax the first 87K - sort of an overseas tax free threshiold - but they'll tax stuff on top of that at 30% or whatever the rate is. As I understand, if you have already paid tax on anything above the 87K (ie in the Netherlands), they'll calculate the difference, and if you haven't paid the difference, the US will take the rest...

if that makes sense!

[MJo]

Ok I have asked about the tax situation. They said because I will be living in Amsterdam, I am not taxed (other than social security) on the amount up to $87k because of the foreign earned income credit. Above and beyond that, I will be taxed as an American only (maybe 30%), as they are saying there is a tax treaty between the US/Netherlands. They pay all relocation and travel expenses, as well as my accom in Amsterdam. They have a good global health care package that covers me in any country. They don't offer paid vacation as they are a US company (argh).

So overall, it looks like a good deal except the salary is a bit low, and the no vacation thing irks me. I am going to push for a higher salary and at least two weeks' vacation in the heart of winter so I can come back to visit Thailand.

What do you think? Tips on negotiating the salary? I have never done that before.

Don't push it too much, in europe "locals" do these jobs for USD 55k to 75k. You mention Finland and i know some guys up there who do this less than 55k and pay 30 - 40% tax + pay their own accommodation that will cost anything between USD 750 (30m2 studio) to USD 2,000 and up (2br) per month in good location...

As an american supposed to work for american company your are propably being offered a premium already based on salary levels back in US. Get a feeling if there is room for more but i would not expect getting that much more unless you have some special skills that are highly sough after and not available in local market. More likely is that you could get some extra's like paid vacation (based on local system, not US system) etc...

[wongamat20]

what do you mean? can i live comfortably in europe on that and even save some cash? assuming i go out on weekends and the occasional weeknight, and maybe a bi-weekly shopping splurge. the dollar is pretty low so i am not sure...

Many EU workers survive on 12000 euros per year - fact

[girlx]

one more thing, does anyone have a good online map of amsterdam, or can someone tell me where in the city this is?: Abbey Bus. Center Busitel, Orlypien

[bendix]

Personally, I think you should take the job. I suspect half the posters on this thread would love that kind of income but are muddying the waters for you with the whole 'I wouldnt touch it with a bargepole' type attitude, while they nurse their daily singer and bemoan their 30,000 a month teacher salary to their mates.

And, let's face it. You're hardly happy in Thailand, are you?

[samran]

don't forget as well that when you are travelling you will likely get per diems.

For relatively junior positions, this is likely to be $100 per day extra pocket money for when you are travelling for work business away from Amsterdam (in addition to flights, hotels, telephone, taxis, car hire which the company should pay seperately).

If you eat cheaply, then the per diems can be a nice little side earner.

[think_too_mut]

don't forget as well that when you are travelling you will likely get per diems.

For relatively junior positions, this is likely to be $100 per day extra pocket money for when you are travelling for work business away from Amsterdam (in addition to flights, hotels, telephone, taxis, car hire which the company should pay seperately).

If you eat cheaply, then the per diems can be a nice little side earner.

That kind of perdiems is taxed as extra earning, at the highest possible rate, could be 50% or more.

Many companies have switched (it's easier for accounting and does not make people eat chips while travelling trying to save) to "actuals" - bills for everything "up to" certain amount. 40,50,60$ (Tokyo is 60$) for food and incidentals.

[samran]

don't forget as well that when you are travelling you will likely get per diems.

For relatively junior positions, this is likely to be $100 per day extra pocket money for when you are travelling for work business away from Amsterdam (in addition to flights, hotels, telephone, taxis, car hire which the company should pay seperately).

If you eat cheaply, then the per diems can be a nice little side earner.

That kind of perdiems is taxed as extra earning, at the highest possible rate, could be 50% or more.

Many companies have switched (it's easier for accounting and does not make people eat chips while travelling trying to save) to "actuals" - bills for everything "up to" certain amount. 40,50,60$ (Tokyo is 60$) for food and incidentals.

true. I guess the point is to check to see what their policy is.

It defiently has been swings and round abouts. I used to work for Accenture, and they changed from a 'show a receipt for everything to a limit' back in 2001 to here is a tonne of cash for every day you are away, take care of everything yourself except flights and taxis.....I saved a pile just on per deums alone. In OZ, back in 2001 we were told they weren't taxable, but we had to return to our home base at least once every three weeks, otherwise they would incur FBT (Fringe Benefits Tax). But that was a few years ago and I haven't worked for them for a while.

Before I went freelance, my (former) company, where I worked out of a regional HQ had a policy of per diem of up to $100 per day (eg EU, Japan), but that didn't include hotels, flights or any other form of transport, nor telephones which were covered. They still use it AFAIK, and they weren't taxed here in Thailand, but there would have been limits to that.

[Andiamo]

I think it sounds like a good package. Plus a great opportunity to work in Europe, meet different people and enjoy the weekends gadding about there! Who knows who you will meet and what other employment opportunities will come your way for the future!!! As they say, jobs do not have to be forever!

Best of luck with whatever you decide!

[Peterpan]

thanks for all the tips- it isn't sounding like a great offer when you figure the taxes in etc. !

you need to ask for a tax equalization package.

can anyone give more details on that?

Tax is 50% of what you earn for the first 181 days in that Tax year, after that you will become a residence of that European country. All Taxes will be paid once you pass the 181 days in any one Tax year, on all and any earning paid inside or outside of that country.

The Apartment you rent once past 181 days, will be your known main residence for tax purposes as the lease agreement will be in your name, if the company pay the rent and the utility bills taxes have to be paid on that as well. As it is part of your income.

I am a Brit who worked in Milan same deal for everyone, in my contract the company paid all taxes. (Lucky Us)

Your Tax Equalisation means you wont pay twice, just a percentage in holland and a percentage in your home country which will = to the persentage of total tax due in Holland. 50% of everything.

It has to be clear in the contract of all salary, accomadation, daily living allowance, travel to and from your home country. Get them to pay the taxes.

Yours Sincerley

None Tax Memeber of the EEC

[KM_FUBAR]

If you say you would make arround the same money in Asia, Why would you move to Europe?

Working for an US company in Europe is not the right moment now the $ is to week 90K$ used to be a top salary with todays conversion of 1.5 to the Euro this makes your salery just above average.

If you are working for them as an employee it is just ok but if you work as a consultant then it is not enough as you have more tax obligations.

Don't forget it is an election year in the US this means that in 12months from now the $ rate can be a lot worse or better this is a gamble.

If you are hired as an employee then the company needs to pay your travel expenses this an european law, as a consultant it is not applicable. Also you need to declare your residence in a European country this makes you applicable to many taxes bound to the country, The Netherlands are not always the most favourable. However you will be able to travel to most country's without pasport control. If you stay more then three months out side of the country of your resindence (amsterdam) they need to pay a perdiem ontop of the expenses.

In europe from your gross salary you will have a lot of taxes taken of in the netherlands it is about 47%, Belgium has close to 60% so it is not the worse. But also they will have you to pay for health insurance most will be paid by the company but for the private part they will deduct somethin. and most company's do a pension plan each month you put some money a side for later but if you not planning to stay until your pension, 65y, in Europe and work for this pension then this money is going to be havely taxed when you redraw it before the age of retirement.

Try to get 90K€ istead of $

hope it helps......

[girlx]

thanks for the info but like i said the HR lady has told me there is a tax treaty between the US and the Netherlands which prevents my being double taxed?! can anyone refute that? i agree with you about the fact that the exchange rate could get much worse, but really, i don't have that much to lose since if i don't like it i can quit at any time and come right back to the same position i am in now in thailand.

[AFKAFSinLOS]

... I suspect half the posters on this thread would love that kind of income but are muddying the waters for you with the whole 'I wouldnt touch it with a bargepole' type attitude, while they nurse their daily singer and bemoan their 30,000 a month teacher salary to their mates.

And, let's face it. You're hardly happy in Thailand, are you?

Agree with Bendix that I'm surprised the number of people on here knocking the salary, though I'm slightly less cynical as to their motives

To put in perspective I read a couple of articles recently that said the average salary in banking in the City of London had fallen 2% to GBP 48k, and it was getting harder to find jobs there too. One was in the Times newspaper - original source was Morgan McKinley.

Based on what I've read of your posts elsewhere, you're not that old. So to be hitting the average salary of a London banker - expensive location (more so than most other European cities) + you're comparable to the well paid banking sector there - seems a reasonable deal to me.

Also sounds like interesting experience, and does you good sometimes to leave Thailand for your career perspectives + perspectives on Thailand / life. Could also be a route into something better in Thailand later.

Bendix also put it rather abruptly, and perhaps knows you/your profile, but you don't seem to be going anywhere here in Thailand.

So...Reasonable package. Somewhere new. Interesting opportunity...Thailand will always be here and doesn't change "that" much

Edited May 19, 2008 by AFKAFSinLOS

[LaoPo]

one more thing, does anyone have a good online map of amsterdam, or can someone tell me where in the city this is?: Abbey Bus. Center Busitel, Orlypien

Did you ever try Google Maps ?

Very handy, easy and comfortable. In maps and in Satellite.

http://maps.google.com/

Note: don't tell the company who offered you a job you never used/heard of Google Maps, being an IT specialist..."Information Architect (user experience design for websites)"

You probably mean 'Orlyplein' instead 'Orlypien':

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=nl&...&iwloc=addr

Apart from that I think you're talking:

Abbey Business Center

Gebouw Busitel 1,

Orlyplein 85,

1043 DS Amsterdam

and NOT: Abbey Bus. Center Busitel, Orlypien

LaoPo

[girlx]

yes i have heard of google maps, but i can never get it to show foreign addresses! not that i really have taken much time to do so, that's what you're for. thanks for the info.

[LaoPo]

yes i have heard of google maps, but i can never get it to show foreign addresses! not that i really have taken much time to do so, that's what you're for. thanks for the info.

That's rubbish girlx and you know it. You asked "does anyone have a good online map of amsterdam" and now you tell us you heard about google maps....

If you know a proper address, just paste it (or type properly....) and you'll find it on Google maps.

If I can find it (with a mere 5 years computer experience)....you can find it, being an IT specialist...... I think you're over offered with that job.... better not tell that company...

LaoPo

[twschw]

Honestly, I have no computer skills at all and I found this: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=e...97&z=15>

Hope it helps a little.

[PCA]

yes i have heard of google maps, but i can never get it to show foreign addresses! not that i really have taken much time to do so, that's what you're for. thanks for the info.

That's rubbish girlx and you know it. You asked "does anyone have a good online map of amsterdam" and now you tell us you heard about google maps....

If you know a proper address, just paste it (or type properly....) and you'll find it on Google maps.

If I can find it (with a mere 5 years computer experience)....you can find it, being an IT specialist...... I think you're over offered with that job.... better not tell that company...

LaoPo

[girlx]

hey people always assume because i am an information architect for websites that i know everything about computers and the internet. that's their problem, not mine. when i have typed thai addresses in before it kept reverting back to the US site (asking for a US address) and i gave up.

[twschw]

Were you able to use the link I provided? Was it helpful?

[LaoPo]

hey people always assume because i am an information architect for websites that i know everything about computers and the internet. that's their problem, not mine. when i have typed thai addresses in before it kept reverting back to the US site (asking for a US address) and i gave up.

That's because you've set your language as 'English' with google......I assume; if so, of course it doesn't recognize Thai...

If I'm incorrect, please, someone correct me.

twschw

your link is the same as I used in #44; it's, as you mention, indeed very simple.

LaoPo

[Khun Jean]

I would ask what your allowance is for accomodation.

I would guestimate around 1500-2000 euro would be a reasonable amount.

There is not to much available in Amsterdam. (At least the decent ones).

There are a few areas you would like to avoid.

If you need some pointers shoot me a pm. ( l lived in Amsterdam from age 4-41 )

[Cuban]

Do you know what you spend money on now, and how much?

I assume you work at home - so you will need to consider transportation costs and the balance between living close to work and living in a nice area.

There is a time cost to travel and on public transport it can be less than fun time.

Food at work may be expensive and wrapped for a day in plastic - not the fresh (?) BBQ chicken and salad in Thailand for 35 Baht.

After all the detail about cost of living here vs Europe - factor in the cost of lifestyle.

Outside of work is the stress factor better here or in Europe.

The grass is always greener on the otherside. Ask any European if they would up root and move to Thailand?

I hope you find somewhere that you like.

[girlx]

I would ask what your allowance is for accomodation.

1350 euros - would love suggestions on areas to stay in, i will have to commute to orlyplein

The grass is always greener on the otherside. Ask any European if they would up root and move to Thailand?

i would rather stay in asia but like i said before i am not one to let a challenge pass me by

Edited May 20, 2008 by girlx

[NotYetArahan]

I did not have time to look through all the posts, so maybe what I will say has been said already.

Well, I am Dutch and have been working abroad quite a lot as expat.

American companies in the past paid double of the Dutch companies for working abroad

The Company I work for, when working abroad we get approx 70,000 Euro/year plus around 2000 Euro netto per month for working abroad. This is working 2 months, have 1 month of. Of course accomodation, food, car, all expenses paid.

This is much more than you are getting. American companies should pay more than above.

Expat accomodation in NL is Euro 1,500 plus/month if you want something furnised. Maybe quite a bit more in Amsterdam. If you only want carpets and curtains it could go down to around Euro 1,000/month. If you like somebody to look for accomodation I can give you a contact.

Good luck. I hope it is helpful.

Arjen

Taxes in NL are high. You will have to pay taxes I should say, but that should be easy to find out.

[NotYetArahan]

Another thing: better get paid in Euro.

regards,

Arjen

[Khun Jean]

1350 euro will not give you much choice, unless you go look outside Amsterdam.

Orlyplein is right next to a trainstation, transportation would not be difficult.

The area around Orlyplein is not really a living area. It is in a commercial area.

Closest to it is 'Slotermeer'. Few nice houses, but you would not feel that you are in the Netherlands as most people are from Arab decent or eastern Europe.

The area is 'Amsterdam West'.

If you like city live i would definately choose somewhere closer to the center. If you like a more quiter area i would suggest a little north of amsterdam. Places like 'Ilpendam', 'Purmerend', 'Wormer' etc are nice and quiet and close enough for an easy commute.

Prices outside Amsterdam will also be better.

You might want to look at www.rotsvast.nl (also in English) to get an idea of what is available.

If you see something you like i can offer some info about the area.

Being paid in Euros doesn't have to be a plus. The dollar is extreemly low at the moment and changes are it is getting stronger.

Use your own judgement. You can fix the dollar to Euro rate for the time you are employed to take out the exchange rate.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Khun Jean

[Jack Jones]

Tip on negotiating the salary, you should ask for a cost of living adjustment if you want a higher salary. This is standard practice in our company although the salary you are being quoted is a fair price for European IT at your level.

You might want to also push for an incidental allowance, this covers any other costs that are incurred during the relocation. Again the company I work for just deposits the money in your bank account and you don't have to provide expense receipts for this. A nice perk if you can get it.

Sounds like a good opportunity to me, I'm actually heading the other way to HK so am gouing through the same process at the moment.

[Felt 35]

If its any hold in the estimate below you should be okay with US 90,000

GDP - per capita (ppp) following the World Fact book, 2007 estimate

Netherlands: US 38,600

Finland: US 35,500

Poland: US 16,200

Denmark: US 37,400

Norway: US 55,600

Sweden: US 36,900

Germany: US 34,400

Belgium: US 36,500

USA: US 46,000

England: US 35,300

Thailand: US 8,000

[LaoPo]

Tip on negotiating the salary, you should ask for a cost of living adjustment if you want a higher salary. This is standard practice in our company although the salary you are being quoted is a fair price for European IT at your level.

I wonder why they offered the job in the first place....In Holland there are many high qualified IT specialists and the pre's they have is that they already live there AND have multi language skills like English and German or even French and Spanish; German is important to Eastern European countries, so, if I were girlx I would grab the opportunity. Not much to lose.

LaoPo