Fluent In Thai?

[DP25]

Not really sure where I stand based on the 1-10 scale posted. I'd guess between 5-6. I definitely can't fully understand the news yet, but can read children's stories and hold conversations fairly well. Am reading the first Harry Potter book in Thai right now, it's more difficult than I expected it to be, there's a lot of words I don't know and have to look up. I can not always explain the word I want to say in Thai, sometimes I just have to look it up first. I can read fairly well however, just don't always know what all the words mean yet.

[simon43]

There are also those of us who, due to the presence of Thai/English-speaking persons in our everyday lives, end up speaking at least 3 languages: Thai, English and a third (artificial) language which is composed of both Thai and English (not Tinglish).

For example my hotel cook will speak to me and her sentence will contain a mixture of Thai and English words...

'I BPAI market SEU MOO and chicken...'

Since she knows enough English to speak the whole sentence in English, and I know Thai for her to speak the whole sentence in Thai, I'm not sure why my hotel staff have evolved this third language:) Maybe we don't get out enough to meet other people....

Simon

[wilko]

There are also those of us who, due to the presence of Thai/English-speaking persons in our everyday lives, end up speaking at least 3 languages: Thai, English and a third (artificial) language which is composed of both Thai and English (not Tinglish).

For example my hotel cook will speak to me and her sentence will contain a mixture of Thai and English words...

'I BPAI market SEU MOO and chicken...'

Since she knows enough English to speak the whole sentence in English, and I know Thai for her to speak the whole sentence in Thai, I'm not sure why my hotel staff have evolved this third language:) Maybe we don't get out enough to meet other people....

Simon

that's usually referred to as pidgin or in some places creole.

i certainly would like to be fluent for more than purely practical reasons....i would never set out to "just get by" - even if that was the result.

the biggest single help for me has been in starting to learn to write......I have friends who manage to speak quite adequately in Thai but quite literally can't even read a road sign on a sign to the toilet...they seem to learn by ear alone...I cannot, I personally need a visual reference and a grammar....getting vowel sounds and tones is so much easier when you can follow the script.

Edited May 18, 2008 by wilko

[Jimmy2004]

I'll tell you my personal story about languages.

I studied French for 4 years and failed miserably, (I think I can count to about 13 and say 'bonjour') so I thought I wasn't good at languages.

In my first year in Thailand I learnt almost 0 Thai and couldn't hold a two-way conversation at all. Then I moved up country for 5 months where I didn't hear a single word of English and by the time I came back I was dreaming and thinking in Thai. I considered myself fluent at the time but was far from it.

Anyway, now it's 7 years and I'm a translator now!!

[Ave]

Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

I'm pretty fluent when I ask a question in Thai.

The touble is I never understand the answer.

Same here! They think that clear pronunciation means fluency so they tend to speak very fast. Now I understand more then before but my speaking is definitely better than my comprehension. I'm probably between level 6 and 7, though I'm still learning to read..

[abrise]

This is quite an interesting matter,

I don't see many people pretending to be above level 7!

I would put myself at level 6 or 6.5

I have PO 6 certificate (four years ago) but that would probably correspond to level 4 or 5 only.

However I pretend to be fluent because i speak fast and i undestand everything in everyday's life

[Ave]

A curious thing I find is when speaking one of my other languages, which I may not have used for a while, I bring up Thai words and phrases in the middle of sentences where I'm struggling to recall this third language.

Same with me. I believe that when you learn a foreign language its "boxed" in a particular area of your brain and that when your struggling to recall words they mingle for want of a better phrase. Example, Swedish is one of my now rarely used foreign languages, when I'm searching for a word in Thai its the Swedish equivalent more likely to pop up rather than the English equivalent. Strange.

I do the same thing. I have always viewed it as having a default secondary language. The first secondary language I learned was Spanish. When I was just starting in Thai I would sometimes throw in Spanish words when I was speaking Thai and the Thai word didn't come to mind immediately. Now that I use Thai far more than Spanish my brain spits out some Thai words when I speak Spanish, but not Spanish when I am speaking Thai. Thus Thai has become the default language when I am not speaking English. I rarely mix the secondary language words with English or vise versa. My only trouble between my primary and secondary languages is that I sometimes don't know which language I use. I automatically use whichever language is spoken to me and have no idea afterwards what language was used. BTW, I am far from fluent in either of my secondary languages so I am fairly surprised that I don't know what language I speak.

Yes, it must be quite natural. In thirteen years spent in the UK I put my Italian aside and nearly forgot it. Now that I have lived in Thailand for a few years I need to worry about my English.. When I started learning Thai I could relate to Italian better, maybe because sentences are constructed in a more similar way than in English. Same things for Spanish perhaps?

[nungnatee]

Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

sorry i cant help u there but im fluent in cuniligis

[Mobi]

That's a pretty good scale VoIP, and I can recognise the levels very well.

I am definitely a scale 6, but cannot read Thai at all. Although my vocabulary increases all the time, I don't think I will ever reach level 7 - IMHO that is a big jump. (for me anyway).

I learnt my Thai by being exposed to the language for many years and then, more recently, living with 2 ladies (not at the same time ) who spoke absolutely no Englsih.

At this point I moved from probably a level 3 to a level 6 in only a few months. And I'm no youngster, but 'immersion' works wonders with the brain, as you have no choice but to speak Thai without the option of reverting to English.

Although my wife now speaks fairly good Englsih, I still speak in Thai to her, her family (who speak no English) my domestic staff, and just abut all Thais I meet and/or interact with. I find that living out of town very few, if any, Thais speak English so I really have little choice.

Interestingly, I have found that even well educated Thais, who speak quite good Englsih, usually prefer to talk with me in Thai as soon as they find out I can speak it. This sometimes causes problems, when for example I am talking to a doctor about medical matters, and I don't understand many of the technical words being used.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

The U.S. State Department's Foreign Service Institute long ago developed a scale for relative fluency is spoken and writted languages, it's copied below, along with my Q&D (that's "Quick & Dirty") redifinition of it below it.

FYI, I did test at S-2+ at one time lo these many years ago in Lao and same in Thai about 1979.

Mac

FSI Language Scale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_or_Foreig...bility_measures

ILR Level 1 - Elementary proficiency

Elementary proficiency is the first level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-1 or Level 1. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to satisfy routine travel needs and minimum courtesy requirements

can ask and answer questions on very familiar topics; within the scope of very limited language experience

can understand simple questions and statements, allowing for slowed speech, repetition or paraphrase

has a speaking vocabulary which is inadequate to express anything but the most elementary needs; makes frequent errors in pronunciation and grammar, but can be understood by a native speaker used to dealing with foreigners attempting to speak the language

while topics which are "very familiar" and elementary needs vary considerably from individual to individual, any person at the S-1 level should be able to order a simple meal, ask for shelter or lodging, ask and give simple directions, make purchases, and tell time.

[edit]

ILR Level 2 - Limited working proficiency

Limited working proficiency is the second level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-2 or level 2. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to satisfy routine social demands and limited work requirements

can handle with confidence, but not with facility, most social situations including introductions and casual conversations about current events, as well as work, family, and autobiographical information

can handle limited work requirements, needing help in handling any complications or difficulties; can get the gist of most conversations on non-technical subjects (i.e. topics which require no specialized knowledge), and has a speaking vocabulary sufficient to respond simply with some circumlocutions

has an accent which, though often quite faulty, is intelligible

can usually handle elementary constructions quite accurately but does not have thorough or confident control of the grammar.

[edit]

ILR Level 3 - Professional working proficiency

Professional working proficiency is the third level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-3 or Level 3. S-3 is what is usually used to measure how many people in the world know a given language. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to speak the language with sufficient structural accuracy and vocabulary to participate effectively in most formal and informal conversations on practical, social, and professional topics

can discuss particular interests and special fields of competence with reasonable ease

has comprehension which is quite complete for a normal rate of speech

has a general vocabulary which is broad enough that he or she rarely has to grope for a word

has an accent which may be obviously foreign; has a good control of grammar; and whose errors virtually never interfere with understanding and rarely disturb the native speaker.

[edit]

ILR Level 4 - Full professional proficiency

Full professional proficiency is the fourth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-4 or level 4. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to use the language fluently and accurately on all levels normally pertinent to professional needs

can understand and participate in any conversations within the range of own personal and professional experience with a high degree of fluency and precision of vocabulary

would rarely be taken for a native speaker, but can respond appropriately even in unfamiliar situations

makes only quite rare and unpatterned errors of pronunciation and grammar

can handle informal interpreting from and into the language.

[edit]

ILR Level 5 - Native or bilingual proficiency

Native or bilingual proficiency is the fifth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-5 or level 5. A person at this level is described as follows:

has a speaking proficiency equivalent to that of an educated native speaker

has complete fluency in the language, such that speech on all levels is fully accepted by educated native speakers in all of its features, including breadth of vocabulary and idiom, colloquialisms, and pertinent cultural references.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Level 1, Able to get into trouble

Level 2, Able to get out of trouble

Level 3, Would not have gotten into trouble in the first place

Levels 4 & 5, Unatainable for us normal beings

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[ilyushin]

Well this is tough. I have never been tested nor in a competition, but I would say that I am almost fluent. To be fluent is to communicate not only in a language, but also have high level of understanding of the thinking process and cultural aspects.

I speak Thai more than I do English and have done for many years. Some days I don't even speak in English at all.

[kato]

Right now, I am right at the bottom, a 1.5 at a push!!

I would love for this to be reposted in 12 months to see how far up I can move in a year!!

[Chang_paarp]

I put myself some where between 2 & 3. I keep telling people that the best I will get is like the olf Greek who speaks accented English, he knows the words but has trouble getting them understood. I'll kep on trying to learn and improve, I might even resort to a language school.

I realized early in the peace that it is important to learn to read the words as the transliterations are affected by the accent of the person doing them, where as Thai is a phonetic language. Some of the worst transliterations I have encountered were by my Thai teacher in Oz. She was very good in some ways but her transliteration was terrible. To add insult to injury she refused to teach us to read and write because it made things too difficult.

[midasthailand]

Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

The U.S. State Department's Foreign Service Institute long ago developed a scale for relative fluency is spoken and writted languages, it's copied below, along with my Q&D (that's "Quick & Dirty") redifinition of it below it.

FYI, I did test at S-2+ at one time lo these many years ago in Lao and same in Thai about 1979.

Mac

FSI Language Scale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_or_Foreig...bility_measures

ILR Level 1 - Elementary proficiency

Elementary proficiency is the first level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-1 or Level 1. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to satisfy routine travel needs and minimum courtesy requirements

can ask and answer questions on very familiar topics; within the scope of very limited language experience

can understand simple questions and statements, allowing for slowed speech, repetition or paraphrase

has a speaking vocabulary which is inadequate to express anything but the most elementary needs; makes frequent errors in pronunciation and grammar, but can be understood by a native speaker used to dealing with foreigners attempting to speak the language

while topics which are "very familiar" and elementary needs vary considerably from individual to individual, any person at the S-1 level should be able to order a simple meal, ask for shelter or lodging, ask and give simple directions, make purchases, and tell time.

[edit]

ILR Level 2 - Limited working proficiency

Limited working proficiency is the second level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-2 or level 2. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to satisfy routine social demands and limited work requirements

can handle with confidence, but not with facility, most social situations including introductions and casual conversations about current events, as well as work, family, and autobiographical information

can handle limited work requirements, needing help in handling any complications or difficulties; can get the gist of most conversations on non-technical subjects (i.e. topics which require no specialized knowledge), and has a speaking vocabulary sufficient to respond simply with some circumlocutions

has an accent which, though often quite faulty, is intelligible

can usually handle elementary constructions quite accurately but does not have thorough or confident control of the grammar.

[edit]

ILR Level 3 - Professional working proficiency

Professional working proficiency is the third level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-3 or Level 3. S-3 is what is usually used to measure how many people in the world know a given language. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to speak the language with sufficient structural accuracy and vocabulary to participate effectively in most formal and informal conversations on practical, social, and professional topics

can discuss particular interests and special fields of competence with reasonable ease

has comprehension which is quite complete for a normal rate of speech

has a general vocabulary which is broad enough that he or she rarely has to grope for a word

has an accent which may be obviously foreign; has a good control of grammar; and whose errors virtually never interfere with understanding and rarely disturb the native speaker.

[edit]

ILR Level 4 - Full professional proficiency

Full professional proficiency is the fourth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-4 or level 4. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to use the language fluently and accurately on all levels normally pertinent to professional needs

can understand and participate in any conversations within the range of own personal and professional experience with a high degree of fluency and precision of vocabulary

would rarely be taken for a native speaker, but can respond appropriately even in unfamiliar situations

makes only quite rare and unpatterned errors of pronunciation and grammar

can handle informal interpreting from and into the language.

[edit]

ILR Level 5 - Native or bilingual proficiency

Native or bilingual proficiency is the fifth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-5 or level 5. A person at this level is described as follows:

has a speaking proficiency equivalent to that of an educated native speaker

has complete fluency in the language, such that speech on all levels is fully accepted by educated native speakers in all of its features, including breadth of vocabulary and idiom, colloquialisms, and pertinent cultural references.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Level 1, Able to get into trouble

Level 2, Able to get out of trouble

Level 3, Would not have gotten into trouble in the first place

Levels 4 & 5, Unatainable for us normal beings

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Based on this scale I would fall somewhere between 4 and 5, but there is a vast difference between the two levels.

Edited May 18, 2008 by midasthailand

[Ulysses G.]

Between level 5 and 6, more towards 6, after 2 years in Thailand.

Took private lessons about 3 times a week for 2 months in the beginning and that was very important for me to get started. I had tried for a month without teacher before starting lessons, just by being around Thai people, reading dictionaries and phrase books and could not really get anywhere.

I just can't reach the level 7, understanding TV, I would probably have to continue really studying vocabulary to reach that.

I have been stuck at level 6 for the last 18 years, but I have only met two farangs that are much above that; Joe Cummings )of Lonely Planet and the rock group Tonic Rays fame) and Raymond the German in Chiang Mai who has studied Thai every day for 20 years and already speaks 6 languages fluently. I have heard of a few others.

Most farangs who claim to fluently understand Thai TV by listening are lying from what I have seen.

[wilko]

Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

The U.S. State Department's Foreign Service Institute long ago developed a scale for relative fluency is spoken and writted languages, it's copied below, along with my Q&D (that's "Quick & Dirty") redifinition of it below it.

FYI, I did test at S-2+ at one time lo these many years ago in Lao and same in Thai about 1979.

Mac

FSI Language Scale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_or_Foreig...bility_measures

ILR Level 1 - Elementary proficiency

Elementary proficiency is the first level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-1 or Level 1. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to satisfy routine travel needs and minimum courtesy requirements

can ask and answer questions on very familiar topics; within the scope of very limited language experience

can understand simple questions and statements, allowing for slowed speech, repetition or paraphrase

has a speaking vocabulary which is inadequate to express anything but the most elementary needs; makes frequent errors in pronunciation and grammar, but can be understood by a native speaker used to dealing with foreigners attempting to speak the language

while topics which are "very familiar" and elementary needs vary considerably from individual to individual, any person at the S-1 level should be able to order a simple meal, ask for shelter or lodging, ask and give simple directions, make purchases, and tell time.

[edit]

ILR Level 2 - Limited working proficiency

Limited working proficiency is the second level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-2 or level 2. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to satisfy routine social demands and limited work requirements

can handle with confidence, but not with facility, most social situations including introductions and casual conversations about current events, as well as work, family, and autobiographical information

can handle limited work requirements, needing help in handling any complications or difficulties; can get the gist of most conversations on non-technical subjects (i.e. topics which require no specialized knowledge), and has a speaking vocabulary sufficient to respond simply with some circumlocutions

has an accent which, though often quite faulty, is intelligible

can usually handle elementary constructions quite accurately but does not have thorough or confident control of the grammar.

[edit]

ILR Level 3 - Professional working proficiency

Professional working proficiency is the third level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-3 or Level 3. S-3 is what is usually used to measure how many people in the world know a given language. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to speak the language with sufficient structural accuracy and vocabulary to participate effectively in most formal and informal conversations on practical, social, and professional topics

can discuss particular interests and special fields of competence with reasonable ease

has comprehension which is quite complete for a normal rate of speech

has a general vocabulary which is broad enough that he or she rarely has to grope for a word

has an accent which may be obviously foreign; has a good control of grammar; and whose errors virtually never interfere with understanding and rarely disturb the native speaker.

[edit]

ILR Level 4 - Full professional proficiency

Full professional proficiency is the fourth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-4 or level 4. A person at this level is described as follows:

able to use the language fluently and accurately on all levels normally pertinent to professional needs

can understand and participate in any conversations within the range of own personal and professional experience with a high degree of fluency and precision of vocabulary

would rarely be taken for a native speaker, but can respond appropriately even in unfamiliar situations

makes only quite rare and unpatterned errors of pronunciation and grammar

can handle informal interpreting from and into the language.

[edit]

ILR Level 5 - Native or bilingual proficiency

Native or bilingual proficiency is the fifth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-5 or level 5. A person at this level is described as follows:

has a speaking proficiency equivalent to that of an educated native speaker

has complete fluency in the language, such that speech on all levels is fully accepted by educated native speakers in all of its features, including breadth of vocabulary and idiom, colloquialisms, and pertinent cultural references.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Level 1, Able to get into trouble

Level 2, Able to get out of trouble

Level 3, Would not have gotten into trouble in the first place

Levels 4 & 5, Unatainable for us normal beings

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

whereas one can obviously be fuent in a language without literacy, I would interpret the US scale as requiring that by scale to, as it says something about performing office work etc....can't see anyone getting by in Thai there without a good standard of writing.

I guess they didn't figure on a different writing system.

[Neeranam]

QUOTE (VoIP @ 2008-05-17 12:49:16)

level 0: (Nono level) does not speak a word

level 1: (Sawasdee level) can greet, yes/no, goodbye

level 2: (Counting level) can count, ask prices, order food -let's say the most basic practical communications

level 3: (Taxi-Thai level) the level where you can ask directions, have a basic 'taxi' conversation stating what country you are from and what brings you to Thailand, yes its going to rain, its traffic jam etc...

level 4: (Girlfriend-Thai level): at this level extra vocabulary is acquired for a range of household, monetary and other subjects. includes relation related voc.

level 5: (Chit-chat Thai level): small talk about the weather, family, home country etc. One can understand and respond to basic day to day questions

level 6: (Basic Thai level): one can hold conversations as long as the topic is general. When not knowing a certain word, the speaker can explain the word in a different way. When listening, non understood words meaning is made up from the context.

level 7: (TVnewsThai level): the level where you can actually understand 80% of the Thai tv news. a major benchmark

level 8: (More advance Thai level): here you can also discuss specific topics (politics, although maybe not a good idea), you can explain the doctor how your allergy affects your sleep pattern etc, and the dentist you need root canal treatment of your molar tooth

level 9: (Even more advanced Thai level): here you can almost say everything, hard to think of topics you have difficulty expressing yourself in Thai

level 10: you speak as good as a native. can express yourself 100% in Thai. you think in Thai

Level 3

Edited May 18, 2008 by Neeranam

[wilko]

It is a problem with any rating system is that it is conceived to serve the purposes of its composer....in these cases the military, who ar e reknown for a non-academic black and white approach to the problem.

[klikster]

One farang who is a high level of competency in Thai is that the greatest difficulty in reading (besides the lack of spaces, caps and punctuation) is reading handwriting.

While he could read a Thai newspaper pretty much as fast as I could read english language, he struggled with handwriting.

[wilko]

itseemstometheatmostthaishavedifficultyinreadinglargelybecauseofthelackofpunctua

tionetc

or rather......

It seems to me the at most thais have difficulty in reading....largely because of the lack of punctuation etc

Edited May 19, 2008 by wilko

[grtaylor]

itseemstometheatmostthaishavedifficultyinreadinglargelybecauseofthelackofpunctua

tionetc

or rather......

It seems to me the at most thais have difficulty in reading....largely because of the lack of punctuation etc

I really don't believe that, sorry. What evidence do you have that Thais have difficulty in reading?

When I learnt to read that was actually one of the least difficult aspects of it.

Graham

[kmart]

I am reasonable adept in the spoken language, but pretty dyslexic at the written version. (No gaps between words always throws me). The written language actually doesn't seem to stimulate much of a culture of Thai literature beyond text or comic books either, btw.

I can also follow the plots of Thai soap operas and the footie commentary with relative ease. "Maaaaeeeeeeeeee!" "O-hoh!" "Supa-save" etc.

I am also able to differentiate the various meanings and tones of the almost separate language "Uuurrrrr". "err", Urrgh", "Ah" "Eh", etc. So put me down as "fluent".

Edited May 19, 2008 by kmart

[wilko]

itseemstometheatmostthaishavedifficultyinreadinglargelybecauseofthelackofpunctua

tionetc

or rather......

It seems to me the at most thais have difficulty in reading....largely because of the lack of punctuation etc

I really don't believe that, sorry. What evidence do you have that Thais have difficulty in reading?

When I learnt to read that was actually one of the least difficult aspects of it.

Graham

I'm not talking about learning to read...I find that very enlightenig as I pointed out earier, but I'm taslking about natural speakers ability to read/comprehend....

Try watching Thai people reading or ask a comprehension question on a short piece.......I haven't done any scientific tests but my experience is that most tend to take longer than people reading western alphabetic script.

There re a few simple quirks about th western alphabet......such as the way we recognise words...the most obvious is that we recognise the word primarily by it's first and last letter and then shape....not the letters......Thai script would seem to require that you first cut the line up into words and then sentences etc.

Also without the same punctuation it would seem that the nuances contained in such structures as subordinate clauses get hidden in the continuous text.

the result...it takes longer to read and then unravel the meaning.

which of the above sentences did you find easier to read?

Edited May 19, 2008 by wilko

[grtaylor]

itseemstometheatmostthaishavedifficultyinreadinglargelybecauseofthelackofpunctua

tionetc

or rather......

It seems to me the at most thais have difficulty in reading....largely because of the lack of punctuation etc

I really don't believe that, sorry. What evidence do you have that Thais have difficulty in reading?

When I learnt to read that was actually one of the least difficult aspects of it.

Graham

I'm not talking about learning to read...I find that very enlightenig as I pointed out earier, but I'm taslking about natural speakers ability to read/comprehend....

Try watching Thai people reading or ask a comprehension question on a short piece.......I haven't done any scientific tests but my experience is that most tend to take longer than people reading western alphabetic script.

There re a few simple quirks about th western alphabet......such as the way we recognise words...the most obvious is that we recognise the word primarily by it's first and last letter and then shape....not the letters......Thai script would seem to require that you first cut the line up into words and then sentences etc.

Also without the same punctuation it would seem that the nuances contained in such structures as subordinate clauses get hidden in the continuous text.

the result...it takes longer to read and then unravel the meaning.

which of the above sentences did you find easier to read?

Which of your sentences I found easier is irrelevant, as English is not, and never has been, written that way. Its a false comparison.

If we're talking about native speakers, then which ones? Every society has people who are less able at reading and comprehension. I really don't believe you can blame that on their system of writing.

I learnt how to spot the beginning and end of words very easily, and therefore the native speakers must be able to do that a lot more instinctively than I can. They will have the same sort of "tricks" that we do for extracting meaning

However, I'm not really taking issue with your argument about writing systems. I have a real problem with your initial premise, which is that Thais are worse than westerners at comprehension. I have seen no more evidence of this among native speakers, than I would among the average native-speaking population "back home".

G

[Groongthep]

level 6: (Basic Thai level): one can hold conversations as long as the topic is general. When not knowing a certain word, the speaker can explain the word in a different way. When listening, non understood words meaning is made up from the context.

level 7: (TVnewsThai level): the level where you can actually understand 80% of the Thai tv news. a major benchmark

level 8: (More advance Thai level): here you can also discuss specific topics (politics, although maybe not a good idea), you can explain the doctor how your allergy affects your sleep pattern etc, and the dentist you need root canal treatment of your molar tooth

I think this scale gets rather out of whack in the 6 to 8 range. For one thing I think there is a huge jump in fluency in going from 6 to 7. The ability to understand 80% of a Thai News broadcast takes far more comprehension than that needed to simply hold a conversation on a general topic. And why would conversing on a general topic (such as the weather for example) be any more difficult than talking on a specific topic (such as politics) as long as one knows the necessary vocabulary for either subject? Besides, I couldn't imagine myself going in and telling my dentist I needed a root canal. The dentist is the one who should be telling ME that. But I digress. I first came to Thailand in 1988 and I have been trying to learn Thai on my own ever since using only courses intended for self study and by practicing with Thai people in everyday life. I am a merchant seaman and have had the good fortune to be able to travel to Thailand 2 or 3 times a year for the last 20 years. I eventually got to where I can speak well on most any subject (providing I know anything about it of course ) and can read and write on an elementary level. I can read things such as public notices, advertisements, and children's books, but am lucky to understand anything more than the general subject of newspaper articles. I routinely use the Thai text messaging function on my mobile phone for both sending and receiving messages in Thai. Still, I wouldn't consider myself to be on much more than an intermediate level in Thai particularly because I have a hard time comprehending rapidly spoken idiomatic Thai. Two years ago I started going to AUA on Rachadmri Rd. in Bangkok. When I went into the office the first time I only spoke thai with them so they could get an idea of what level I should start out in. They put me in AT5 which is the highest level. If you are at all familiar with AUA you will know that they use what they call the "natural" method. It has been praised by few and maligned by many, but I have found it helpful. I wouldn't recommend it to someone starting out from scratch though. Basically each class is simply two native speaking Thais (the teachers) talking or roll playing on a particular subject and all the students do is sit there and absorb as much as they can. Asking questions is discouraged but once in a while the teachers will ask questions of the students. I'm not sure if this is to try to determine how much the student is comprehending or if it's just to keep them awake. Anyway, I usually understand the big majority of what is being discussed in class and often become quite encouraged that I am improving in comprehension only to turn on the television later that night and get really depressed because I have no f#*k#*g idea what they're saying. So where this puts me on the above scale I don't know but I do know that without formal study in a reputable school or with a good tutor the road to becoming truly "fluent" is a long one. I may never fully get there but have have thoroughly enjoyed trying.

[wilko]

itseemstometheatmostthaishavedifficultyinreadinglargelybecauseofthelackofpunctua

tionetc

or rather......

It seems to me the at most thais have difficulty in reading....largely because of the lack of punctuation etc

I really don't believe that, sorry. What evidence do you have that Thais have difficulty in reading?

When I learnt to read that was actually one of the least difficult aspects of it.

Graham

I'm not talking about learning to read...I find that very enlightenig as I pointed out earier, but I'm taslking about natural speakers ability to read/comprehend....

Try watching Thai people reading or ask a comprehension question on a short piece.......I haven't done any scientific tests but my experience is that most tend to take longer than people reading western alphabetic script.

There re a few simple quirks about th western alphabet......such as the way we recognise words...the most obvious is that we recognise the word primarily by it's first and last letter and then shape....not the letters......Thai script would seem to require that you first cut the line up into words and then sentences etc.

Also without the same punctuation it would seem that the nuances contained in such structures as subordinate clauses get hidden in the continuous text.

the result...it takes longer to read and then unravel the meaning.

which of the above sentences did you find easier to read?

Which of your sentences I found easier is irrelevant, as English is not, and never has been, written that way. Its a false comparison.

If we're talking about native speakers, then which ones? Every society has people who are less able at reading and comprehension. I really don't believe you can blame that on their system of writing.

I certainly would!

I learnt how to spot the beginning and end of words very easily, and therefore the native speakers must be able to do that a lot more instinctively than I can. They will have the same sort of "tricks" that we do for extracting meaning.

I think you might have overlooked the way ALL human brains cope with information..especially visual and I reckon the Thai writing system is not a very efficient vehicle for this.

However, I'm not really taking issue with your argument about writing systems. I have a real problem with your initial premise, which is that Thais are worse than westerners at comprehension. I have seen no more evidence of this among native speakers, than I would among the average native-speaking population "back home".

I make no such premise...

G

Edited May 19, 2008 by wilko

[fishman]

Sometimes there is no point to learn any Thai. The locals don't or will not understand you at all. Keep it to the pigeon English, this has kept me going for a long time here now in bangkok.

[Neeranam]

Sometimes there is no point to learn any Thai. The locals don't or will not understand you at all. Keep it to the pigeon English, this has kept me going for a long time here now in bangkok.

The locals here understand my Thai. Maybe your locals are Vietnamese or Mongolian. If you live in a tourist area - fine - not much of a life though.

[wilko]

I think "no point" is rather sad.....I also think that communication is a 2-way thing, and if they don't understand the speaker might want to look at the way he communicates.....there is an inconsistancy here though...if there's no point in learning, I take it though you have as they don't understand you...or you didn't learn in which case they wouldn't understand you any how????

[garro]

Thai people are very happy to hear westerners speak their language in my experience. The only exception to this is when they believe that you are going to be difficult to understand and they don't want the headache of trying to decipher your words. Not everyone has the time and patience to act as a language coach. Unfortunately the fact that the majority of westerners speak the language badly means that Thais tend to expect you to speak it badly. This expectation often means that they will refuse to listen to your attempts at Thai. If you can convince a Thai stranger in the first couple of sentences that you can indeed speak a bit, and that it won't be too much of a struggle for them, then they usually they will be very happy to listen and speak in Thai.

Edited May 19, 2008 by garro