What The Heck Is The Superstructure On Sukhumvit?

[jonniebkk]

What is the new elevated roadway they are building on Sukhumvit between North and Central roads? Where will it cut-in from and is it at all related to the new roads paralleling the railroad tracks?

[Mobi]

It's nothing to do with the "local roads" by the railway tracks - that's a different project.

As I understand it, it is a flyover to avoid the right turning traffic going to Pattya Nua and ease congestion along Sukhumvit.

I read somewhere recently that it was scheduled for completion in August , but this has now been delayed indefinitely - surprise surprise!!

IMHO, many of these projects are only commissioned to bring cash to politicians.

To me the beneft will be very marginal. So it may ease congestion at Pattau Nua, but what about all the red lights from Nua, through Klang and onwards to Tai and Jomtien? And the red lights going north through Na Klua? It's just going to transplant the jams to another area of Sukhumvit.

To say nothing of all the extra congestion/ fuel costs/ lost time during the construction phase, which will at last for at least a year - if not longer.

It's all total garbage and corruption

[jonniebkk]

As I understand it, it is a flyover to avoid the right turning traffic going to Pattya Nua and ease congestion along Sukhumvit.

Not sure I understand...a flyover/bypass to avoid right turning traffic going to Nua? The far left lane is basically a no stop lane for that isn't it? So somewhere before Nua (heading south) one would drive up on the fly-over and then back down to Sukhumvit to entirely avoid the Nua/Sukhumvit intersection?

IMHO, many of these projects are only commissioned to bring cash to politicians.

Agree...just like in the West...but there it's to line the pockets of the construction trades unions and their political sponsors!

To me the beneft will be very marginal.

Most likely true but sometimes new roads do actually produce a better driving experience. Like the entire Sukhumvit road widening project of the past couple years has really eased congestion and the expansion of the highway to Bangkok is also wonderful IMO.

[CGW]

Most likely true but sometimes new roads do actually produce a better driving experience. Like the entire Sukhumvit road widening project of the past couple years has really eased congestion and the expansion of the highway to Bangkok is also wonderful IMO.[/color]

But, all the road works have not kept up with expansion, ten years ago there was no problem with Sukhumvit, the highway has never been good after Chonburi, but used to be ok till there.

The new highway, after how many years? & how many deaths? & how many billion baht? is now drivable, what a disgraceful episode, just what does the transportation ministry take responsibility for?

[monty]

Sorry guys, all wrong!

That flyover is where the extension of highway nr. 7 will attach to Sukhumvit!

Road nr.7 is now being extended, with several large portions nearing completion, basically only some roads have to be crossed.

The bridge currently being built on Soi Chayapornviti (the road coming from Lake mabprachan going towards Sukhumvit where the True Internet building is on the corner) is where the Highway nr. 7 will go under. From there the road will remain between Soi Siam Country club and Soi Cahayapornviti until it hits Sukhumvit at where they are currently building that flyover/junction...

When it will be finished is another question as they are hitting some serious delays!

Source: http://www.pattayatoday.net/index.php?acti...ews&id=3026

[PattayaParent]

Most likely true but sometimes new roads do actually produce a better driving experience. Like the entire Sukhumvit road widening project of the past couple years has really eased congestion and the expansion of the highway to Bangkok is also wonderful IMO

How so? Everyone still only drives in the outer 2 lanes and the expanded lanes are empty.

Traffic congestion would be eased at the Nua Klang and Tai intersections if the police enforced the right turn from Sukhumvit to only 1 lane. It's the traffic stopped in the outer second (and even third!) straight on lanes to turn right that causes the problems by causing the majority traffic going straight through to funnel into only the inner 1 lane.

[CGW]

How so? Everyone still only drives in the outer 2 lanes and the expanded lanes are empty.

So much work and money spent on Sukhumvit, yet the inner 2 lanes road surface is still too bad to drive on!

[patsfangr]

Most likely true but sometimes new roads do actually produce a better driving experience. Like the entire Sukhumvit road widening project of the past couple years has really eased congestion and the expansion of the highway to Bangkok is also wonderful IMO

How so? Everyone still only drives in the outer 2 lanes and the expanded lanes are empty.

Traffic congestion would be eased at the Nua Klang and Tai intersections if the police enforced the right turn from Sukhumvit to only 1 lane. It's the traffic stopped in the outer second (and even third!) straight on lanes to turn right that causes the problems by causing the majority traffic going straight through to funnel into only the inner 1 lane.

Please educate me. Exactly which traffic laws DO the Pattaya Police "enforce"? I have yet to see consistent enforcement of ANY laws. Very infrequent "roadblocks" and "helmet checkpoints" are the only relatively consistent thing they do; and those are far too infrequent to be of any significant value in improving traffic flow or safety.

[monty]

This monstrosity will seriously add to the traffic problems, wait until it's finished and the 4 lane, nr.7 highway will release all the Bangkok originating weekend traffic at that one single place on Sukhumvit, Friday evenings and Saturday mornings.

And Sunday afternoons half the cars in Pattaya will want to exit the city at that one single junction. Ouch...

[patsfangr]

I once heard (perhaps as long as 25-30 years ago) that most, if not all, of the major new road construction, as well as the traffic control mapping, was designed by foreign (European) engineers. Does anyone know if that was true once, and if it is still true now?

[eljeque]

If Europeans were designing the roads, we would be driving on the other side. :-)

[CHdiver]

If Europeans were designing the roads, we would be driving on the other side. :-)

Then they are probably British? At least that would explain the quality of the roadwork around here.

[lemel]

If Europeans were designing the roads, we would be driving on the other side. :-)

Then they are probably British? At least that would explain the quality of the roadwork around here.

Why? explain and provide proof of your statement

[monty]

I once heard (perhaps as long as 25-30 years ago) that most, if not all, of the major new road construction, as well as the traffic control mapping, was designed by foreign (European) engineers. Does anyone know if that was true once, and if it is still true now?

Probably a result of the fact that most major highway/motorway/elevated road system has been built by Ital-Thai.

Ital-Thai has been founded in '67 by a Thai family and an Italian gentleman called Georgio Berlingieri and initially was involved in LPG trading.

They quickly expanded into engineering.

Since the death of Mr. Georgio Berlingieri (in '81 I think), Ital Thai is a 100% Thai company, so their name is a tad misleading!

[patsfangr]

I once heard (perhaps as long as 25-30 years ago) that most, if not all, of the major new road construction, as well as the traffic control mapping, was designed by foreign (European) engineers. Does anyone know if that was true once, and if it is still true now?

Probably a result of the fact that most major highway/motorway/elevated road system has been built by Ital-Thai.

Ital-Thai has been founded in '67 by a Thai family and an Italian gentleman called Georgio Berlingieri and initially was involved in LPG trading.

They quickly expanded into engineering.

Since the death of Mr. Georgio Berlingieri (in '81 I think), Ital Thai is a 100% Thai company, so their name is a tad misleading!

Thanks, Monty! I think that's the answer that explains what I had heard. I clearly recall seeing the "Ital-Thai" name on various roadworks in BKK way back in the 70's. The information that "foreigners" were designing the roads and routes may have been in response to a question I asked about that. I could have sworn that there was some sort of "consulting" done by foreigners on routing traffic via the use of traffic lights (timing, etc.), "detours", one-way streets, etc.

So, since that's not true, we can, in fact, blame the Thais for the mess that is the road and traffic system here. Seriously, they really do some incredibly stupid things with traffic lights, intersection blocking, and, of course, lack of enforcement of the rules and road markings that do exist. It's so dam_n frustrating for people who come from countries where traffic rules are followed by nearly everyone as a normal way of life.

[Mobi]

Yes, there's Italthai, and a few other companies - some with Japanese connections, who tend get the lion's share of all major construction contracts. They are well in with the "powers that be" and are well placed to clean up and pass huge backhanders to the politicians who approve the projects.

Although you could never say that the infrastructure of Bangkok is comparable to a western capital, there is a world of difference between how road projects in Bangkok are handled, compared to those in the rest of the country.

When they decide a new road or an new overpass is needed in Bangkok, the first thing they do is inform the public, and there is a consultation process in which the public is involved. Often as a result of public objections, projects are shelved, or modified.

Once the go ahead is given on a project, the public are told, and just before the construction gets under way, police often hand out flyers to drivers in the area, warning them of forthcoming road works, and put signs up, advising of alternative routes.

Then, when the construction commences, police are on hand to redirect traffic and to assist in expediting the traffic through the congested areas.

Projects which cause major congestion are scheduled to be completed in double quick time - and usually are - often ahead of schedule. There are heavy fines for every day a project is late in completion, and this concentrates the minds of the contractor.

Unfortunately, once you get out of the Bangkok environs, it is a totally different story. Projects are usually only dreamed up with corruption in mind, and it is not at all unusual for them to be abandoned in mid construction when the contractor runs away with the money and claims he has gone bankrupt.

Nobody cares how long it takes or how much disruption is caused, and there is never any public consultation.

Sometimes communities, or villages or shops are cut of for weeks or months at a time, with no consideration to the people to live there or who are trying to earn a living. They just couldn't give a sweet f...ck

[onzestan]

It's so dam_n frustrating for people who come from countries where traffic rules are followed by nearly everyone as a normal way of life.

Yes but let's not forget that's only because there are some very hefty fines in place, plus losing drivers licence etc.

I remember the times before speed limit's were introduced in Europe, and even after introduction very few people took notice, until said fines came in place, and the introduction of speed cameras.

People all over the world will disobey the law if they think they can get away with it.

Other than that I do agree that the Thai's (population and government) are taking it to the extreme but that's probably where the Teamoney comes in.

cheers

onzestan

[patsfangr]

Yes, there's Italthai, and a few other companies - some with Japanese connections, who tend get the lion's share of all major construction contracts. They are well in with the "powers that be" and are well placed to clean up and pass huge backhanders to the politicians who approve the projects.

Although you could never say that the infrastructure of Bangkok is comparable to a western capital, there is a world of difference between how road projects in Bangkok are handled, compared to those in the rest of the country.

When they decide a new road or an new overpass is needed in Bangkok, the first thing they do is inform the public, and there is a consultation process in which the public is involved. Often as a result of public objections, projects are shelved, or modified.

Once the go ahead is given on a project, the public are told, and just before the construction gets under way, police often hand out flyers to drivers in the area, warning them of forthcoming road works, and put signs up, advising of alternative routes.

Then, when the construction commences, police are on hand to redirect traffic and to assist in expediting the traffic through the congested areas.

Projects which cause major congestion are scheduled to be completed in double quick time - and usually are - often ahead of schedule. There are heavy fines for every day a project is late in completion, and this concentrates the minds of the contractor.

Unfortunately, once you get out of the Bangkok environs, it is a totally different story. Projects are usually only dreamed up with corruption in mind, and it is not at all unusual for them to be abandoned in mid construction when the contractor runs away with the money and claims he has gone bankrupt.

Nobody cares how long it takes or how much disruption is caused, and there is never any public consultation.

Sometimes communities, or villages or shops are cut of for weeks or months at a time, with no consideration to the people to live there or who are trying to earn a living. They just couldn't give a sweet f...ck

Thanks for the info, Mobi. Having lived in this hel_l hole (Pattaya) for over two years now, I was well aware of the situation "out of the Bangkok environs", as you explained it. But I was not aware of the relatively sound and effective way in which road projects are handled in BKK.

The involvement and input from the public is especially interesting. That isn't even done in the USA. Other than people directly affected by construction, there's no open public review unless somebody raises an uproar over a particular project. Likewise, there's rarely much, if any, advance notice of roadwork. Once it begins, however, there are always formal detours, with signs. And they DON'T detour you onto ANOTHER road that's under construction, or is virtually impassable, as I've seen all too often here in Pattaya.

Then, of course, there's the time factor. Road repairs are nearly always completed within a week or less, versus the MONTHS it takes to repave a 1/2 km of road here! Major new roads are completed in about 1/4 the time it takes here, if not less.

Finally, there's the materials issue. Road repairs here are nearly always done with inferior materials; no doubt with the difference it price of the proper materials and the crap they use going into the pockets of the contractors and the "authoriities". A road that's repaired today will almost certainly be chewed up again as soon as we have a couple of good rains!

[PattayaParent]

If Europeans were designing the roads, we would be driving on the other side. :-)

Then they are probably British? At least that would explain the quality of the roadwork around here.

Why? explain and provide proof of your statement

M6, M62, M1 need I go on???

[jonniebkk]

I was just curious about what and where the new roadworks on Sukhumvit was coming from and leading to...not the state of the motorways in GB

I still don't think we have the answer...there seems to be a couple of opinions on it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

And all the post comparing the highways and roadworks in LOS to UK, Europe, or USA seems beside the point. How about a more useful comparison to other middle Second World nations like Brazil, Mexico, or maybe Phils or Indo (though these are much less developed countries). I think LOS comes out pretty good in comparison...at least in terms of amount of decent road network, signage, and surface quality. Maybe the best part...very lackadaisical policing

Edited May 26, 2008 by jonniebkk

[monty]

I still don't think we have the answer...there seems to be a couple of opinions on it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

What is there to doubt on what the construction is for? I'll illustrate with a screenshot taken from google earth:

You can clearly see the big intersection at the right top corner, where the highway nr.7 comes together with highway nr. 36, with the unfinished part in the direction of Pattaya.

I put red balls at all the sections under construction towards Pattaya, and you'll clearly see where the road will end up, at Sukhumvit where they are now doing the construction!

Do note that this satellite picture is over a year old, and that currently almost all those little patches of road are joined!

There are 3 things still to be done, the bridge at soi Chayapornviti, the construction on Sukhumvit (both underway) and the crossing of the railway of which I haven't seen any activity yet...

[Tammi]

I once heard (perhaps as long as 25-30 years ago) that most, if not all, of the major new road construction, as well as the traffic control mapping, was designed by foreign (European) engineers. Does anyone know if that was true once, and if it is still true now?

Yes, into the 70s and perhaps 80s foreign firms did road and highway feasability, design, and construction supervision. Since then Thailand has done and, I think, done a very good job of it.

Edited May 26, 2008 by Tammi

[basjke]

I tought the plans were about a year ago that the highway would exit on 3rd road?I remember reading in the papers that it would go over soi siam country club then make a turn and go over sukhumvit near the index furniture shop and have it's exit and entrance on 3rd road.So those plans must have changed?

[patsfangr]

I once heard (perhaps as long as 25-30 years ago) that most, if not all, of the major new road construction, as well as the traffic control mapping, was designed by foreign (European) engineers. Does anyone know if that was true once, and if it is still true now?

Yes, into the 70s and perhaps 80s foreign firms did road and highway feasability, design, and construction supervision. Since then Thailand has done and, I think, done a very good job of it.

[patsfangr]

What am I missing here? They are going to dump all of the traffic coming south from BKK (and probably whatever is coming north from Rayong) right into the middle of (OK, north end) of the city traffic? What the h*ll is wrong with them?

Why wouldn't you build such a junction to drop the traffic into the relatively LIGHT traffic 10-15 kms north of the city? There's then time for drivers to get their bearings, and prepare for their next turn, WITHOUT causing a massive traffic jam at the intersection of Pattaya Nua and Suk. Even the construction would be MUCH less disruptive during its' snail's pace "progress".

And why not simultaneous construction of an option for an exit for people going to Jomtien, or South Pattaya, that would dump NR 7 traffic onto Soi Nongkraborg, north of Chaknork Reservoir. Of course, significant road repair would be required on Soi Nongkraborg to make that work. Still, a combination of those 2 exits - one just north of Pattaya City, and one just south of Pattaya City - would it seems to me minimize the impact upon traffic within the city.

This current plan makes no sense whatsoever to me, unless there are, at least, going to be a few exits between NR 7 and Suk to provide some options for the huge inflow of traffic from BKK on weekends, holidays, etc..

[monty]

Yep Pats,

Fridays and Saturdays will be mayhem with all the incoming cars, and Sunday even worse when they will all want to leave at the same time, through the one virtually single exit out of Pattaya

There is indeed another part planned, however this is the next phase and will probably not finish until a few years more.

On the satellite picture I posted, just above Lake mabprachan, they will split of a road going straight South through that plot of vacant land you see along the dam of the lake, and then turn towards Jomtien.

If I recall correctly that part should end up somewhere just past Jomtien on Sukhumit (Na Jomtien), but not 100% sure...

[jonniebkk]

You can clearly see the big intersection at the right top corner, where the highway nr.7 comes together with highway nr. 36, with the unfinished part in the direction of Pattaya.

I put red balls at all the sections under construction towards Pattaya, and you'll clearly see where the road will end up, at Sukhumvit where they are now doing the construction!

Thanks...that explains it nicely. That all I was interested to know.

So what's the purpose of this new road (other than to line the pockets of the landowners along the route, the politicians, and the construction companies)? I mean, the current set-up with people just coming down to Sukhumvit past the international school and then making a right onto Sukhumvit to enter town or head on down to Satahip is easy enough.

I thought initially the talk was to put the extension of 7 and its re-entry point back onto Sukhumvit somewhere south of Jomtien - basically outside Pattaya proper. This way, trucks, buses, cars, in a word traffic, that was coming down highways 3 or 7 that was heading south of Pattaya and the Sattahip areas could bypass Pattaya altogether and therefore reduce congestion in town. But this road would just dump them in the middle of town!

It's still called a "bypass" road isn't it...but what is it bypassing?

Edited May 26, 2008 by jonniebkk

[monty]

I thought initially the talk was to put the extension of 7 and its re-entry point back onto Sukhumvit somewhere south of Jomtien -

Indeed correct, as per my post above.

IMHO they should have done phase 2 (to Jomtien) before phase 1 (into central Pattaya).

[jonniebkk]

I thought initially the talk was to put the extension of 7 and its re-entry point back onto Sukhumvit somewhere south of Jomtien -

Indeed correct, as per my post above.

IMHO they should have done phase 2 (to Jomtien) before phase 1 (into central Pattaya).

Yes, I saw your post after mine posted

Seems to me the only one they need is the one entering south of Pattaya...that way you take some of the traffic that doesn't need to pass through Pattaya off Sukhumvit completely.

[farangtingtong]

You can clearly see the big intersection at the right top corner, where the highway nr.7 comes together with highway nr. 36, with the unfinished part in the direction of Pattaya.

I put red balls at all the sections under construction towards Pattaya, and you'll clearly see where the road will end up, at Sukhumvit where they are now doing the construction!

Thanks...that explains it nicely. That all I was interested to know.

So what's the purpose of this new road (other than to line the pockets of the landowners along the route, the politicians, and the construction companies)? I mean, the current set-up with people just coming down to Sukhumvit past the international school and then making a right onto Sukhumvit to enter town or head on down to Satahip is easy enough.

I thought initially the talk was to put the extension of 7 and its re-entry point back onto Sukhumvit somewhere south of Jomtien - basically outside Pattaya proper. This way, trucks, buses, cars, in a word traffic, that was coming down highways 3 or 7 that was heading south of Pattaya and the Sattahip areas could bypass Pattaya altogether and therefore reduce congestion in town. But this road would just dump them in the middle of town!

It's still called a "bypass" road isn't it...but what is it bypassing?

It's bypassing nothing........the new Pattaya Bypass is the road along both sides of the railway from North to South v.v.. Now, this 'by-pass' could have a function, coming from nr 36, just before the railway track (s), turn left and follow the bypass until let's say Neun Pleb Waan.

In the future, the entrance from nr 36 will still be there of course, but unfortunately, there will be almost zero traffic using the 36, unless it has to go to Laem Chabang (from Rayong). Voices are stating, that this so called by-pass should take care of most traffic problems on Sukhumvit.