Good Technique In Wiring

[petercsea]

I wonder if someone could comment on good wiring practice and describe or illustrate the best techniques for

Splicing cables (of the same wire width and different). Pros and cons of what is commonly seen, best place to make the join etc.

Variations in technique for using cables of various widths. Wrestling with 6mm and mortal combat with 10 mm cables

Wiring in things like light fittings and sockets (With the variations of the available connections commonly used).

Using junction boxes. When and where

Placing the joined cables in junction boxes. Fixing the junction boxes to surfaces

And of course other really important stuff that I don't know

[Crossy]

What a bloody good idea, now why didn't I think of that

Actually, I don't really have time to put it together, so as an alternative why not hunt out good DIY wiring sites and post links here, I'll include links to the best on my wiring page so they don't get mislaid.

I'll add a few words on 'local' variations and we should be in business.

I humbly suggest that we stick with UK and Aussie/Kiwi sites and avoid the US ones like the plague, not that there's anything inherently wrong with the US, it's just that their electrical system is so alien compared with the civilised world that it's seriously going to cause confusion to the mortals Additionally, the local regs (such as they are) are closely linked with the Aussie (and hence UK) regulations, if we wire to them then we're good to go

A major point of note is the use of wiring colour codes, see the notes here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/colour%20codes.html

I'll start the ball rolling with this one. http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/index.html

and this one http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/ELECTRICAL_CENTRE.htm the rest of this site is pretty good too

Edited May 26, 2008 by Crossy

[petercsea]

What a bloody good idea, now why didn't I think of that

Actually, I don't really have time to put it together, so as an alternative why not hunt out good DIY wiring sites and post links here, I'll include links to the best on my wiring page so they don't get mislaid.

I'll add a few words on 'local' variations and we should be in business.

I humbly suggest that we stick with UK and Aussie/Kiwi sites and avoid the US ones like the plague, not that there's anything inherently wrong with the US, it's just that their electrical system is so alien compared with the civilised world that it's seriously going to cause confusion to the mortals Additionally, the local regs (such as they are) are closely linked with the Aussie (and hence UK) regulations, if we wire to them then we're good to go

A major point of note is the use of wiring colour codes, see the notes here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/colour%20codes.html

I'll start the ball rolling with this one. http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/index.html

and this one http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/ELECTRICAL_CENTRE.htm the rest of this site is pretty good too

Thanks Crossy. We're off!

Just like to add a caveat: As a (naive) electrical DIY'er the chance as based on UK data is that you have a 72% chance of getting an electric shock. Turn off. Check, check and re-check before starting anything.

[petercsea]

Cutting and stripping cable:

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/ELEC_CUT_STRIP.htm

I haven't seen "bare" earth wire in "two core and earth cable" here in Thailand. So ignore the reference to bare earth wire.

[petercsea]

Selecting the right cable for the job:

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/domestic_cable.htm

[Crossy]

A quick-and-dirty page http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/DIY.html any and all information to add is more than welcome.

Post your useful links in this thread

[longball53098]

Great stuff------>>thanks Crossy and petercsea

I am from the USA and just a novice around home wiring practices and your comment Crossy about the US electrical leads me to ask for a further explanation about the US standards versus the remainder of the known world? I am not familiar with other wiring but am willing to learn.

it's just that their electrical system is so alien compared with the civilised world that it's seriously going to cause confusion to the mortals

Edited May 26, 2008 by longball53098

[petercsea]

Plugs seen and used around Thailand

Plugs_seen_around_Thailand_and_their_purpose_designed_sockets.doc

[petercsea]

Great stuff------>>thanks Crossy and petercsea

I am from the USA and just a novice around home wiring practices and your comment Crossy about the US electrical leads me to ask for a further explanation about the US standards versus the remainder of the known world? I am not familiar with other wiring but am willing to learn.

it's just that their electrical system is so alien compared with the civilised world that it's seriously going to cause confusion to the mortals

Hi Longball,

I think the confusion all began with Tessler and Edison. Tessler wanted a 240 V AC system and Edison wanted a 100 V DC system. Edison thought that the AC system was too dangerous and he used to promote this thought by publicly electrocuting stray dogs to illustrate the danger.

Tesslers argument was that to transmit the electricity you needed to do it at his specification. Edison won originally but then agreed that DC wasn't suitable for long distance transmission. The compromise came as 60 Hz 110V AC.

The British elected 240 V 60 Hz, the most efficient supply for transmission over intermediate distances. The Europeans didn't think that 60 Hz was a good frequency as it didn't fit into the decimal definition, so they elected to supply at 50 hz. I think they regret the increase in cost though. I wonder why they didn't go for 250Volts?

So now we have confusion. Yes. 110V is a safer power supply and is recognised as such by the British but the cost of supplying this over the local grid is very expensive because of energy loss, plus the energy requirements today are much higher. In the US there is a lot of multiphase equipment installed in the homes. In the 220-240 V world not very much for domestic use. Increase the phase numbers supplied and the argument is that you increase the risk.

Then it comes down to fitting the systems for 110v and 220-240V. Thats the real differnce as affecting domestic application and the techniques and safety aspects are quite different let alone the evolved cultural differences with the various authorities.

[longball53098]

Great stuff------>>thanks Crossy and petercsea

I am from the USA and just a novice around home wiring practices and your comment Crossy about the US electrical leads me to ask for a further explanation about the US standards versus the remainder of the known world? I am not familiar with other wiring but am willing to learn.

it's just that their electrical system is so alien compared with the civilised world that it's seriously going to cause confusion to the mortals

Hi Longball,

I think the confusion all began with Tessler and Edison. Tessler wanted a 240 V AC system and Edison wanted a 100 V DC system. Edison thought that the AC system was too dangerous and he used to promote this thought by publicly electrocuting stray dogs to illustrate the danger.

Tesslers argument was that to transmit the electricity you needed to do it at his specification. Edison won originally but then agreed that DC wasn't suitable for long distance transmission. The compromise came as 60 Hz 110V AC.

The British elected 240 V 60 Hz, the most efficient supply for transmission over intermediate distances. The Europeans didn't think that 60 Hz was a good frequency as it didn't fit into the decimal definition, so they elected to supply at 50 hz. I think they regret the increase in cost though. I wonder why they didn't go for 250Volts?

So now we have confusion. Yes. 110V is a safer power supply and is recognised as such by the British but the cost of supplying this over the local grid is very expensive because of energy loss, plus the energy requirements today are much higher. In the US there is a lot of multiphase equipment installed in the homes. In the 220-240 V world not very much for domestic use. Increase the phase numbers supplied and the argument is that you increase the risk.

Then it comes down to fitting the systems for 110v and 220-240V. Thats the real differnce as affecting domestic application and the techniques and safety aspects are quite different let alone the evolved cultural differences with the various authorities.

petercsea,

Thanks for the education and the info. Now that I am a little more knowledgeable I can ask the next question.

You mention the cost of supply for the 110(120) system in the US as being more expensive to outfit on the grid? Local? So the high voltage transmission to the local area that is transformed down to a lower supply for a area that is further transformed down to the local neighborhood voltage of lets say 4400 volts is further transformed down to the home owner voltage of 240 volts. This is what most consumers receive in the US at their meter hence their consumer panel. The only difference I can see is that the transformer that supplies the homeowner meter is built to feed to legs of 120 volts of a single phase of the high voltage supply.

So where is the big cost difference in the local grid supply? I am assuming the main high voltage supplies put out the same volttages and phases that any supply does? The US has to supply 3 phase for some commercial needs Im sure even the local homeowner may use it if he runs a small business. Probably cost him to bring it in to that level as all the transformers are geared to the single phase system.

The company I worked for used a lot of 3 phase blower motors for pneumatic tube systems at banks and it became cost prohiitive to install at the banks as the power companies charged a lot for bringing in 3 phase to a building if the only need was for a few small motors. The demand for 240 volt 3 phase was non existant back in the 80's.

So where am I wrong?

Thanks

[Crossy]

Firstly, longball, there was no intention to cause offence with my 'alien' comment, it's just so different that we really ought to avoid it to minimise confusion.

The major difference between US and Euro/Auzzie/Restoftheworld is the supply of dual voltage (110/220V) to homes as a bi-phase (single phase, centre tap) 3 wire system. This seriously complicates your domestic wiring since you can have 110v outlets off either live and neutral and 220v between lives (for high power appliances). You've only got to read some of the US DIY sites to realise how confusing this can be, add the archaic (and thankfully gradually vanishing) knob-and-tube wiring and we have fun

HV distribution is the same all over the world, no issues there, however the use of lower voltages for domestic use means higher currents for the same power, the higher currents require thicker wire (more copper) and leads to greater I²R losses in those cables (note the square law, doubling the current multiplies the losses by four ). The overall effect is that you need more transformers closer to homes to keep the losses under control. Compare this with the UK, where an entire housing estate of hundreds of homes is fed by a single (large) transformer.

Thailand uses a three-phase 4-wire system. The great beauty of this system is that there is no difference in the supply transformer for single or three-phase. Single phase simply uses one of the three lives and the neutral. So for example, a small factory (large home) can pull its three-phase supply off the same aerials as a small hut with a single phase 5Amp supply. Saving considerably on copper and spaghetti

Edited May 26, 2008 by Crossy

[Crossy]

Plugs seen and used around Thailand

We can now add what I believe to be an Israeli plug to the list, as that is what is attached to my new washing machine (see the domestic wiring thread).

[petercsea]

Hi longball,

I don't think that you're wrong at all.

I believe that the system was different originally. The realisation of increased cost of this type of transmission came around maybe before the war. The plan was then to change the supply. Then a a little bill hit the world. Japan and Germany. The plan was put on hold. I don't know when that was changed.

I think that to change over completely to 220V single phase would have cost a big amount and after the war more and more households had connected plus the advent of electrical consumerism meant that many items were in the homes suitable for 110V. I guess that there would have been a political backlash to such an expensive change

petercsea,

Thanks for the education and the info. Now that I am a little more knowledgeable I can ask the next question.

You mention the cost of supply for the 110(120) system in the US as being more expensive to outfit on the grid? Local? So the high voltage transmission to the local area that is transformed down to a lower supply for a area that is further transformed down to the local neighborhood voltage of lets say 4400 volts is further transformed down to the home owner voltage of 240 volts. This is what most consumers receive in the US at their meter hence their consumer panel. The only difference I can see is that the transformer that supplies the homeowner meter is built to feed to legs of 120 volts of a single phase of the high voltage supply.

So where is the big cost difference in the local grid supply? I am assuming the main high voltage supplies put out the same volttages and phases that any supply does? The US has to supply 3 phase for some commercial needs Im sure even the local homeowner may use it if he runs a small business. Probably cost him to bring it in to that level as all the transformers are geared to the single phase system.

The company I worked for used a lot of 3 phase blower motors for pneumatic tube systems at banks and it became cost prohiitive to install at the banks as the power companies charged a lot for bringing in 3 phase to a building if the only need was for a few small motors. The demand for 240 volt 3 phase was non existant back in the 80's.

So where am I wrong?

Thanks

[Cuban]

We can now add what I believe to be an Israeli plug to the list,

It is really one of these?

Image = Type H ?

What make is the washing machine?

Made in ???

Edited May 26, 2008 by Cuban

[Crossy]

We can now add what I believe to be an Israeli plug to the list,

It is really one of these?

Image = Type H ?

What make is the washing machine?

Made in ???

It looks awfully like the newer version (on the right of the picture). I've not found anything remotely similar.

It's a Whirlpool, not sure where it's made and I don't relish peering round the back to find the plate, pictures of plug here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1995345

Edited May 26, 2008 by Crossy

[longball53098]

If you compare the photos of Crossy's plug and the Israeli one on the right in a bigger view it appears the ground pin on the Whirlpool is bigger in dia. than the L and N. The Israeli looks like all 3 pins are the same?

Just an observation from my PC and my view

ooops! Sorry I was looking at the black one as the new washer and now I see you said the upper white is the machine----------------..never mind on my reply now.

Edited May 26, 2008 by longball53098

[Cuban]

It's a Whirlpool, not sure where it's made and I don't relish peering round the back to find the plate, pictures of....

Just my observations, the use of part shielded Live and Neutral pin suggests it is designed for a country that has some form or electrical safety standards in place. Although there appears to be something (?) stamped in the moldling between the two pins there is otherwise a lack of "this plug conforms to XZY standards" logos that you would normally find on this face of a plug. The L and N suggest an English speaking country? These are new plugs - a poster on the other thread suggested old stock - I doubt this is the case. If it were for the german market as it I would expect some form or DIN (is that the old standard) or EU safety logo on the plug somewhere.

[Crossy]

It's a Whirlpool, not sure where it's made and I don't relish peering round the back to find the plate, pictures of....

Just my observations, the use of part shielded Live and Neutral pin suggests it is designed for a country that has some form or electrical safety standards in place. Although there appears to be something (?) stamped in the moldling between the two pins there is otherwise a lack of "this plug conforms to XZY standards" logos that you would normally find on this face of a plug. The L and N suggest an English speaking country? These are new plugs - a poster on the other thread suggested old stock - I doubt this is the case. If it were for the german market as it I would expect some form or DIN (is that the old standard) or EU safety logo on the plug somewhere.

Yup, agree.

The data between the pins on the plug reads (top to bottom):-

TWF

WP-207

10A 250V

Apart from the L, N and ground designations, that's it.

[Cuban]

This link was brought to you today by the Google search for TWF and WP-207.

Could this be the start of domestic appliance 'Thai' safety testing ??

( I notice the English link on their website is dead.)

[Crossy]

This link was brought to you today by the Google search for TWF and WP-207.

Could this be the start of domestic appliance 'Thai' safety testing ??

( I notice the English link on their website is dead.)

Well done that man

So my (joking) reference to

a strange hybrid dreamed up by the Thais to confuse everyone even more

could be correct. Many a true word and all that

It seems odd that this unusual plug actually has a Thai standard, particularly as it only fits in one of the 'universal' outlets with the facility for round L&N pins, it won't fit in the regular 'US' style (flat pin only) grounded outlets, or are we to see a matching outlet becoming the local standard (fat chance I reckon).

TiT

Edited May 26, 2008 by Crossy

[lopburi3]

http://www.thaiwonderful.com/poroduct_pc.htm

[david96]

Great stuff------>>thanks Crossy and petercsea

I am from the USA and just a novice around home wiring practices and your comment Crossy about the US electrical leads me to ask for a further explanation about the US standards versus the remainder of the known world? I am not familiar with other wiring but am willing to learn.

it's just that their electrical system is so alien compared with the civilised world that it's seriously going to cause confusion to the mortals

Hi Longball,

I think the confusion all began with Tessler and Edison. Tessler wanted a 240 V AC system and Edison wanted a 100 V DC system. Edison thought that the AC system was too dangerous and he used to promote this thought by publicly electrocuting stray dogs to illustrate the danger.

Tesslers argument was that to transmit the electricity you needed to do it at his specification. Edison won originally but then agreed that DC wasn't suitable for long distance transmission. The compromise came as 60 Hz 110V AC.

The British elected 240 V 60 Hz, the most efficient supply for transmission over intermediate distances. The Europeans didn't think that 60 Hz was a good frequency as it didn't fit into the decimal definition, so they elected to supply at 50 hz. I think they regret the increase in cost though. I wonder why they didn't go for 250Volts?

So now we have confusion. Yes. 110V is a safer power supply and is recognised as such by the British but the cost of supplying this over the local grid is very expensive because of energy loss, plus the energy requirements today are much higher. In the US there is a lot of multiphase equipment installed in the homes. In the 220-240 V world not very much for domestic use. Increase the phase numbers supplied and the argument is that you increase the risk.

Then it comes down to fitting the systems for 110v and 220-240V. Thats the real differnce as affecting domestic application and the techniques and safety aspects are quite different let alone the evolved cultural differences with the various authorities.

A 110/130 volt system is no safer than a 220/240 (nominal 230) volt one.

Most of the world use the 230/400/4 wire/50Hz system or a variant of it. The advantages are a reduction in copper for distribution over a 110/130 volt system. Single phase and three phase with neutral is available as required with a single transformer 50 to 500KVA to supply the LV distribution system. One standard system throughout a country.

Economically it is the best system.

[lopburi3]

That could probably be debated as transmission of voltage is not at 230 or 120 so there is no copper advantage until after stap-down transformer. With the split-phase US system that is located outside the house the cost of wire in mostly inside the home - with the large 3 phase 230v systems it may be in the next village and there is much longer lines getting into homes. Japan is a country that uses an even lower 100v system and they are not exactly electrically/electronically challenged.

I also do not subscribe to the feeling 230v is not less safe. Although these days insulation materials are of a much higher quality that in early years the higher to voltage the more likely it is to pass through insulation and use you for a ground path (as those of use who have crossed paths with capacitors know all too well).

[david96]

That could probably be debated as transmission of voltage is not at 230 or 120 so there is no copper advantage until after stap-down transformer. With the split-phase US system that is located outside the house the cost of wire in mostly inside the home - with the large 3 phase 230v systems it may be in the next village and there is much longer lines getting into homes. Japan is a country that uses an even lower 100v system and they are not exactly electrically/electronically challenged.

I also do not subscribe to the feeling 230v is not less safe. Although these days insulation materials are of a much higher quality that in early years the higher to voltage the more likely it is to pass through insulation and use you for a ground path (as those of use who have crossed paths with capacitors know all too well).

Where we the British went and colonised along with other Western European countries we took our political,administrative and electrical systems with us. Thus one will find the 230/400/50Hz/4 wire system in use in many countries. Countries under the influence of the US, eg. Latin America and the Phillipines used the 110/130/60Hz system.

With the IEC system you can have 230 single phase which is 1 phase and neutral or 3 phase and neutral to the main swichboard of an installation. With 3 phase one can operate 400 volt motors connected generally in a delta winding configuration, other single phase loads are balanced over each phase A, B and C to N. One transformer dependant on its size in KVA can supply a number of consumers with in its area.

230 volts phase to neutral and phase to earth, 400 volts between phases, neutral is earthed at the transformer and along the supply network. Consumers earthing may be the TT (direct) or the MEN system.

Question. If you have a load eg 18KW and a route length of 100 meters and you had a choice of voltages to use which would you use? 1 phase 110v, 1 phase 230, 3 phase 400 or 3 phase and neutral 230/400? Your cables are copper. The load does not require a neutral to function. Voltage drop max 5%.

[david96]

The answer to the above is 3 phase 3 wire for a balanced load and 3 phase and neutral for an unbalanced one.

This method uses less copper by weight for distribution.

[Crossy]

As always with these threads we've whizzed off at a tangent, at least it's a friendly tangent

Anyway to get us back on track, and as a response to someone commenting that I've got no calculator for long cable lengths. I've modified the TLC-Direct cable calculator, it now allows one to to set the allowable voltage drop (%) and the load in Amps. Hopefully someone will find it handy for sizing the cable to that remote water pump. Find it here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/VoltageDrop.htm

NOTE. Since it's intended to check volt drop this calculator does not factor any form of temperature de-rating.

When I get a min (or twenty) I'll modify for larger cables and Aluminium (Aluminum) as well as Copper cores

Edited May 28, 2008 by Crossy

[david96]

As always with these threads we've whizzed off at a tangent, at least it's a friendly tangent

Anyway to get us back on track, and as a response to someone commenting that I've got no calculator for long cable lengths. I've modified the TLC-Direct cable calculator, it now allows one to to set the allowable voltage drop (%) and the load in Amps. Hopefully someone will find it handy for sizing the cable to that remote water pump. Find it here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/VoltageDrop.htm

NOTE. Since it's intended to check volt drop this calculator does not factor any form of temperature de-rating.

When I get a min (or twenty) I'll modify for larger cables and Aluminium (Aluminum) as well as Copper cores

A good calculator, checked it out against AS3000, and is ideal for calculating mains, sub mains and final subcircuits in sq mm copper. Single and Three phase. (After calculating the max demand first.)

Excellent for all practical purposes in Thailand.

[Crossy]

The Electricians Guide to the 16th Edition IEE Regulations http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm

[petercsea]

Connecting cable to switches and sockets:

http://www.diyfixit.co.uk/diy/electrics/ca...le_connect.html

[petercsea]

Adding a socket outlet:

http://www.diyfixit.co.uk/diy/electrics/so...y_junction.html