American, B.s. M.ed, Experienced, Seeking Teaching Position In Thailand

[Ijustwannateach]

I openly discourage persons from coming to Thailand to teach, and the reason isn't rocket science: it's unprofessional, poorly-paid, and in 99% of the positions not worth the trouble of the move, the linguistic/cultural learning curve, or the paperwork (even assuming that the paperwork is possible). I'm speaking from a vast spectrum of the experience of persons I have known, know now, and have read online for a number of years now, as well as a certain modest amount of personal experience.

The overall picture- teaching at all levels, in all subjects, at all kinds of institutions- is highly unsatisfactory. The individual exceptions to this picture (myself luckily and finally included) are the exceptions to a widely and consistently-reported rule, which is that the situation of the average foreign teacher in Thailand is messy, confusing, poorly-supported, and tenuous.

One of the few seeming exceptions (supported by posts on this thread as well as some persons I know) is the position of the retired or semi-retired professor at a university; at the very least the paperwork seems to be handled properly. However, I have heard very mixed reports in terms of salaries, and most of those I know admit to me they don't need the money and do the job for the sake of the experience of living in Thailand. I have no complaint about such persons but their needs are simply not comparable to those of younger persons who are seeking working experience, money, and/or careers.

If I were some kind of paid promoter of TEFL in Thailand, no doubt I would enthusiastically welcome teachers to Thailand. However, my main goal here (other than as moderator) is to tell the truth about teaching in Thailand as clearly as I can. At the moment, based on what I know to be the truth in a broad way across all subjects, institutions, and areas of Thailand, I strongly recommend against people (in general) coming to Thailand to teach. I'm not saying it's impossible- I'm not saying it can't be rewarding, or fun, or successful (it has been for me)- but I'm saying that the odds are against it for most individuals, and if you can avoid doing it, you probably should avoid doing it.

"S"

[paully]

^ Excellent advice, Steven and I wholeheartedly concur.

There are some decent teaching positions in Thailand (better ones if you are qualified enough for a 'proper' international school job) offering reasonable salaries and reasonable conditions of service at schools/colleges that are reasonably well-run. But, they're a minority of posts that you find your way into after a few years of learning the ropes in Thailand and making contacts, etc. Even then, there's no career progression to speak of. Don't come to Thailand expecting to further your teaching career unless you are really well-qualified.

Edited June 3, 2008 by paully

[PeaceBlondie]

If we had to generalize, we might say that many positions in many of the better universities, many true international schools, and some EP programs, are fairly professional. Few if any offer more than a single promotion in the next 30 years.

Only a select few will save more than 15K per month, year upon year, teaching in Thailand, even in a specialty niche. If you are under 45, you need to save at least twice that much (after paying for trips home, children's tuition, etc.). I am 'comfortably retired' now because I, my employer, and my govt. were making contributions that totaled 23% of my gross pay into retirement savings. At current salaries (if I had never gotten another promotion), that came to roughly 50,000 baht per month into my retirement fund...and less than half my retirement income derives from those contributions.

Which is one big reason I do not recommend teaching careers in Thailand for folks under 60. For the reasons listed above in this thread, I do not recommend teaching positions in any of the mediocre universities for those over 60. So, what are we talking about - 54 decent positions in the entire Kingdom, of which 8 might earn you a good retirement?

[garro]

I agree that life is probably harder for those of us under forty, but I think that the benefit of teaching at this age is that it gives you plenty of time to find a means of supplementing your income before retiring. Having a full-time teaching position can slowly allow you to build up a small business to fall back on.

I am happy that I am where I am, but my expectations aren't that high in life. I enjoy the students and perhaps being of benefit to them. I will need to worry about my finances for retirement when/if that happens. Plenty of people invest in fantastic pension plans and lose it all or die before they can collect it.

Despite the fact that I don't regret my choice to come and work in Thailand I still wouldn't advise anybody else to come and teach here, because it is so insecure. People will do what they want anyway.

[mopenyang]

I openly discourage persons from coming to Thailand to teach, and the reason isn't rocket science: it's unprofessional, poorly-paid, and in 99% of the positions not worth the trouble of the move, the linguistic/cultural learning curve, or the paperwork (even assuming that the paperwork is possible). I'm speaking from a vast spectrum of the experience of persons I have known, know now, and have read online for a number of years now, as well as a certain modest amount of personal experience.

The overall picture- teaching at all levels, in all subjects, at all kinds of institutions- is highly unsatisfactory. The individual exceptions to this picture (myself luckily and finally included) are the exceptions to a widely and consistently-reported rule, which is that the situation of the average foreign teacher in Thailand is messy, confusing, poorly-supported, and tenuous.

One of the few seeming exceptions (supported by posts on this thread as well as some persons I know) is the position of the retired or semi-retired professor at a university; at the very least the paperwork seems to be handled properly. However, I have heard very mixed reports in terms of salaries, and most of those I know admit to me they don't need the money and do the job for the sake of the experience of living in Thailand. I have no complaint about such persons but their needs are simply not comparable to those of younger persons who are seeking working experience, money, and/or careers.

If I were some kind of paid promoter of TEFL in Thailand, no doubt I would enthusiastically welcome teachers to Thailand. However, my main goal here (other than as moderator) is to tell the truth about teaching in Thailand as clearly as I can. At the moment, based on what I know to be the truth in a broad way across all subjects, institutions, and areas of Thailand, I strongly recommend against people (in general) coming to Thailand to teach. I'm not saying it's impossible- I'm not saying it can't be rewarding, or fun, or successful (it has been for me)- but I'm saying that the odds are against it for most individuals, and if you can avoid doing it, you probably should avoid doing it.

"S"

While I agree with some of what you have written, much of what you have written is really not pertinent to the OP of this thread where we have a member who is retired, well qualified and specifically asking for information regarding his situation.

My responses have been to the OP's situation and questions and not in terms of a general discussion about teaching in Thailand. In this instance, IMHO, some members have gone off topic to state their grievances or often repeated agendas regarding teaching in Thailand. I see no reason to do this as the OP deserved a correct and unbiased answer to his specific situation and not one shrouded in general complaints about teaching in Thailand.

Those who wrote he couldn't get a legal job because of his age were just plain wrong and it would have been unfair to this well qualified and experienced teacher to have been left with such an erroneous impression. More importantly, it would have been unfair to the Thai students.

My hope is that the OP can see through all the "agenda" and off topic writing found on this thread and make the best personal decision in his situation recognizing that much of what has been written on the thread does not relate to him.

[garro]

Looking back at the posts I count 28/35 that deal directly with the OP's request for information about teaching in Thailand, which is good for this forum. There are issues related to age when it comes to teaching here and while it might be your choice to ignore them, I think the OP has a right to hear about them. Everybody has different experiences in Thailand so it is only natural that different advice is given. As I said in my first reply age 'could be a problem'. I think this was a fair comment. I never said that he 'couldn't get a legal job' in Thailand. Your talk about hidden 'agendas' that the OP needs to see through seems a bit paranoid to me, but good luck to you anyway. I do hope the OP gets the job of his dreams and makes a great life in Thailand.

[mopenyang]

Looking back at the posts I count 28/35 that deal directly with the OP's request for information about teaching in Thailand, which is good for this forum. There are issues related to age when it comes to teaching here and while it might be your choice to ignore them, I think the OP has a right to hear about them. Everybody has different experiences in Thailand so it is only natural that different advice is given. As I said in my first reply age 'could be a problem'. I think this was a fair comment. I never said that he 'couldn't get a legal job' in Thailand. Your talk about hidden 'agendas' that the OP needs to see through seems a bit paranoid to me, but good luck to you anyway. I do hope the OP gets the job of his dreams and makes a great life in Thailand.

"Agenda" being the boilerplate mantra that is repeated here over and over again by the same people saying don't come to Thailand to teach.

Enough already. We've gotten the message. We know where you stand and what you recommend.

[garro]

Looking back at the posts I count 28/35 that deal directly with the OP's request for information about teaching in Thailand, which is good for this forum. There are issues related to age when it comes to teaching here and while it might be your choice to ignore them, I think the OP has a right to hear about them. Everybody has different experiences in Thailand so it is only natural that different advice is given. As I said in my first reply age 'could be a problem'. I think this was a fair comment. I never said that he 'couldn't get a legal job' in Thailand. Your talk about hidden 'agendas' that the OP needs to see through seems a bit paranoid to me, but good luck to you anyway. I do hope the OP gets the job of his dreams and makes a great life in Thailand.

"Agenda" being the boilerplate mantra that is repeated here over and over again by the same people saying don't come to Thailand to teach.

Enough already. We've gotten the message. We know where you stand and what you recommend.

Who is 'we'?

Have you been elected the spokesperson of something?

[mopenyang]

Looking back at the posts I count 28/35 that deal directly with the OP's request for information about teaching in Thailand, which is good for this forum. There are issues related to age when it comes to teaching here and while it might be your choice to ignore them, I think the OP has a right to hear about them. Everybody has different experiences in Thailand so it is only natural that different advice is given. As I said in my first reply age 'could be a problem'. I think this was a fair comment. I never said that he 'couldn't get a legal job' in Thailand. Your talk about hidden 'agendas' that the OP needs to see through seems a bit paranoid to me, but good luck to you anyway. I do hope the OP gets the job of his dreams and makes a great life in Thailand.

"Agenda" being the boilerplate mantra that is repeated here over and over again by the same people saying don't come to Thailand to teach.

Enough already. We've gotten the message. We know where you stand and what you recommend.

Who is 'we'?

Have you been elected the spokesperson of something?

I seriously doubt that I am the only member here who is aware of this oft repeated message.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think we really ARE getting off-topic now. Feel free to start a conspiracy theory thread if you like, but please keep it off this one.

"S"

[aussiestyle1983]

Given that Thai's take into account nationality, country of birth, shade of skin, eye colour, neatness of appearance, marital status, ability to kiss ass, and a few other things that promote inequality, I wonder when the usefullness of a farangs penis or sperm count will be consideered when going for a job? If one can't get the female principal knocked up so she will have a farang to bankroll her, maybe that is another reason for not hiring someone who is more than qualified and wants to teach in Thailand. Will the day come when farang wannabee teachers need to submit sperm count results in order to land a teaching job in LOS?

I really miss working there and would consider doing it again, but just like IJWT mentioned, I do not encourage people to go there to teach for the same reasons most people on here tend to agree to, there is very little if anything at all to gain from it except for a headache. If I go to teach there again one day, it will be because I enjoyed teaching the Thai students and the Thai culture; it won't be for anything else other than the satisfaction I get from teaching a good group of people, because lets face it, everything else having to do with working there legally is a headache.

[Briggsy]

You are wrong when you write that "...the Labour Department will only accept work permit applications for applicants over 60 in categories other than teaching."

Uni lecturers are hired and issued work permits over age 60. This is an indisputable fact.

If a particular school doesn't want to move its butt to get a well qualified older teacher complete with a work permit, then kiss that one good-bye and move to one that will. They are not scarce.

Thank you for your comments.

Perhaps you misunderstood my comments. My key point refers to the category of employment under which the work permit is issued.

I too am aware of many foreign teachers over 60 working legally in Thailand. My impression was they held work permits in other categories. One of these categories is 'consultant'. This category has no age restrictions.

Are you saying that "lecturer" does not fall within the "teaching" category?

The important thing is not what the job is or the job title given to the job by the employer but I am talking about opening up the work permit (it's a blue passport-sized book) and looking in the job description box written on page 4. It will be written in Thai. When you have done this, come back and report what it says. If you cannot read and type Thai, get somebody to help you or scan the page and post it here. Remember we are referring to people aged 60 and over.

[mopenyang]

You are wrong when you write that "...the Labour Department will only accept work permit applications for applicants over 60 in categories other than teaching."

Uni lecturers are hired and issued work permits over age 60. This is an indisputable fact.

If a particular school doesn't want to move its butt to get a well qualified older teacher complete with a work permit, then kiss that one good-bye and move to one that will. They are not scarce.

Thank you for your comments.

Perhaps you misunderstood my comments. My key point refers to the category of employment under which the work permit is issued.

I too am aware of many foreign teachers over 60 working legally in Thailand. My impression was they held work permits in other categories. One of these categories is 'consultant'. This category has no age restrictions.

Are you saying that "lecturer" does not fall within the "teaching" category?

The important thing is not what the job is or the job title given to the job by the employer but I am talking about opening up the work permit (it's a blue passport-sized book) and looking in the job description box written on page 4. It will be written in Thai. When you have done this, come back and report what it says. If you cannot read and type Thai, get somebody to help you or scan the page and post it here. Remember we are referring to people aged 60 and over.

Yes, my Work Permit position title in Thai is "Foreign Professor." Yes, I remember we are talking about people aged 60 or over.

I previously mentioned it here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=192274

Are you saying "Professor" does not fall within the "teaching" category that you previously wrote is not available to people aged 60 and over?

Edited June 7, 2008 by mopenyang

[Briggsy]

mopenyang

Thank you for your reply

I assume you are 60 or over. Am I right?

How is "Foreign Professor" written in Thai? Is it อาจารย์ต่างชาติ?

Does this Work Permit come with a teacher's licence? Or is the category of "Foreign Professor" exempt from the need to have a teacher's licence?

We are making progress here.

[mopenyang]

mopenyang

Thank you for your reply

I assume you are 60 or over. Am I right?

How is "Foreign Professor" written in Thai? Is it อาจารย์ต่างชาติ?

Does this Work Permit come with a teacher's licence? Or is the category of "Foreign Professor" exempt from the need to have a teacher's licence?

We are making progress here.

ํำ

Yes, I am over 60.

The title and some of the description is shown below. The full description indicates "Foreign Professor."

A TL is not required for my position.

We are not discussing TLs, though. We are discussing your statement that ".... the Labour Department will only accept work permit applications for applicants over 60 in categories other than teaching."

Work Permits are issued by the Labour Ministry to those over 60 within the category of "teaching" as clearly evidenced by what is written in my Work Permit. I seriously doubt I am the only foreigner in this situation in the Kingdom.

Really, it happens.

อาจารย์สอนภาษาอังกฤษ(สอนภาษาอังกฤษ ให้คำแนะนำปรึกษาเกี่ยวกับการใช้ภาษาอังกฤษแก่นิสิตนักศึกษา)

[KhaoNiaw]

Out of interest, what is the title in Thai? The description here can't really be translated as 'foreign professor'. More like 'English language professor', as it doesn't actually identify you as a foreigner in the description (but obviously, as it's a work permit, you're a foreigner).

[mopenyang]

Out of interest, what is the title in Thai? The description here can't really be translated as 'foreign professor'. More like 'English language professor', as it doesn't actually identify you as a foreigner in the description (but obviously, as it's a work permit, you're a foreigner).

Yes, the Work Permit title above is "English Language Professor" with the indication in the full description obviously being that I am a "foreign" professor. Interestingly enough, my university identification card does read "Foreign Professor" very clearly in Thai.

Edited June 8, 2008 by mopenyang

[Ijustwannateach]

I will back Mopenyang up on this- I do know university lecturers 60+ with work permits.

I have deleted a very off-topic post. Please do try to keep vaguely to the topic if you want your posts to remain on the thread.

[Briggsy]

mopenyang

Thank you for your reply.

As I thought you are employed as an English language teacher or professor (in a consulting role). The key thing is the consulting role bit. This is a separate category to teacher. This may well negate the need for a teaching licence which I suspect you can't get as you over 60. So by tweaking the category, your employer can get you a work permit even though you are over 60.

Please compare with the description from my work permit. Note the omission of the word ปรึกษา = to consult from my profession.

อาจารย์สอนวิชาภาษาอังกฤษ สอนวิชาสนทนาภาษาอังกฤษ สอนวิชาภาษาอังกฤษธุรกิจ ดูแลและปรับปรุงการเรียนการสอน

[mopenyang]

mopenyang

Thank you for your reply.

As I thought you are employed as an English language teacher or professor (in a consulting role). The key thing is the consulting role bit. This is a separate category to teacher. This may well negate the need for a teaching licence which I suspect you can't get as you over 60. So by tweaking the category, your employer can get you a work permit even though you are over 60.

Please compare with the description from my work permit. Note the omission of the word ปรึกษา = to consult from my profession.

อาจารย์สอนวิชาภาษาอังกฤษ สอนวิชาสนทนาภาษาอังกฤษ สอนวิชาภาษาอังกฤษธุรกิจ ดูแลและปรับปรุงการเรียนการสอน

No uni full-time government lecturers or professors are required to have TLs regrdless of age.

You are now attempting to turn the discussion into one about the need for a TL. This is not what we have been discussing. Also, up to your most recent posting, we have not been discussing the "teacher" category. We have been discussing by your own words, the "teaching" category.

When you wrote ".... the Labour Department will only accept work permit applications for applicants over 60 in categories other than teaching" you provided an erroneous impression regarding the situation for over age 60 uni lecturers and professors at government universities in Thailand.

It is clear from my Work Permit alone that I am over 60, teaching and hold a position title that clearly falls within the "teaching" category. Since my position does not require a TL regardless of age, your comment in this respect is simply disingeuous.

Bottom line here is that contrary to what you believe and wrote, over age 60 lecturers and professors are hired at government universities in Thailand to teach and hold work permit titles that clearly fall within the "teaching" category.

That's a fact regardless of how one chooses to parcel it.

Edited June 9, 2008 by mopenyang

[Briggsy]

mopenyang

Thank you for your reply

It would be interesting to see the profession and job description wordings on work permits for teachers from a variety of institutions. You might well find that the wordings omitting the word "consulting" are only on the work permits for the under 60's.

[mopenyang]

Regarding what you wrote below in the Work Permit Title thread, then I would have to say this only further evidences the fact that over age 60 full-time government uni teachers do exist and even within the Work Permit category and title of "Teacher" and not just with another title (professor, lecturer, etc.) within the "teaching" category.

Interesting.

Thanks.

"Hello mopenyang

I have copied your work permit job title/description in Thai from the other thread.

อาจารย์สอนภาษาอังกฤษ(สอนภาษาอังกฤษ ให้คำแนะนำปรึกษาเกี่ยวกับการใช้ภาษาอังกฤษแก่นิสิตนักศึกษา)

Your translation is erroneous. A better translation would be "English language teacher (Teaching English language. Advising and being a consultant on the use of English for university students)

The phrase "Foreign Professor" would translate as "ศาสตราจารย์ต่างชาติ" "Satrajarn Tangchart".

I appreciate that the title "Foreign Professor" appears on your university ID but it is not a translation of your job description in your work permit.

I hope this is of assistance.

Briggsy."

[richard10365]

One of my teachers who teaches accounting at Payap University is over 60. Check out the international college website for more info on Payap University International College.

http://ic.payap.ac.th/

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd be interested, though, in any transitions- is there anyone out there who was working at a job before 60, kept it at 60, and remained on the same contract terms? It seems that in some universities there's a nasty little clause that sends you back in time to being a "new employee," basically, and you lose any pay rises or other seniority benefits. I believe this may also be related to whether the institution is public or private.

[mopenyang]

I'm aware of one other inconsistency involving national medical insurance. Some over age 60 government uni profs, lecturers, teachers, whatever, get it at their unis while other government unis do not make it available. Makes no sense to me.

Edited June 11, 2008 by mopenyang

[PeaceBlondie]

Another question, if I may ask: if an over-60 teacher decides to switch unis, is it likely he will lose status in the process?

[mopenyang]

I honestly don't know how to answer your question, PB.

To the extent that any "status" exists, I guess it go up or down depending upon the situation.

Then again, perhaps I am not interpreting "status" as you intended it?

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, mo. I hardly know what I am asking. When an older instructor or lecturer wishes to change employment from one uni to the next, would he risk the chance of losing whatever status he had at the old school, such as his work permit, his insurance, his academic rank, seniority or tenure, etc.? I think most of the discussion on this has been a newbie with an Master or Doctor degree who arrives here and gets a position at a uni where he stays many years. Or, he has already been working at that uni until he passes a critical age like 60.

[mopenyang]

Speaking only for myself and from what I've experienced over the years at my present uni and another, it all very much depends on the uni and the individual program within the uni. I doubt that there is any guarantee of transfer of rights, level and benefits, etc., from one uni to another. My impression is that this all stuff that would have to be negotiated.

The "status" part for me very much comes down to a personal thing. The title does not seem as important as how you are treated by your Thai faculty colleagues and students. I happen to teach only in the graduate school and this clearly has elevated my position and standing within the uni and among the students. They seem to know the reasons for this while I just accept it and go about my business.

A new work permit would definitely have to be gained when you move from one uni to another along with verifying you will have health insurance coverage at your new uni. The latter issue can be problematic for an over age 60 farang uni instructor at some places. There is no real "tenure" that I am aware of as everything seems to be temporal based on annual renewals of your Work Permit. Again, this may be different for people in situations unlike mine.

That's about the best I can do at this point recognizing that individual unis work in individual ways and so I would not rule out anything when it comes to what is possible or impossible.

[Scalawag]

Don't let age stop you if you want to teach here and are well qualified. I have taught in three government

universities in Thailand since I turned 65. I am currently teaching at two Thai universities and am an old fart at 71! I have never had a problem getting hired nor have I had a problem getting a work permit. I do have a doctorate in education and years of experience and have only missed one day of class in the last four years.

I have found here that often rules, policies and contracts can be negotiated unlike many other places. If you have a track record, are motivated and are healthy, you shouldn't have a problem............