Thai pm verses farangs

[sevinnow]

Bangkokpost  1st August 2003:

Now Thailand has paid off the IMF debt 2 years ahead of schedule, the Thai Prime Minister Mr Thaksin quoted this:

"The land law,the condomininum and land leasing laws will be ammended with changes to provisions on land and condo ownership for foreigners"

"Mr Thaksin wants to rid Thailand of capitalision and give the country back to the Thai people who should be proud of their country"

Could I be reading into this that changes will not be our favour and a immediate halt to all to farang enterprize is next?

Anybody have some serious comments to make?

Regards

Sev

???

[Boo]

Hi Sev, Been thinking the same myself, will be interesting to see what his follow up statement will be taking into account all the other stuff thats been posted about the increase in visas & how much we are wanted here in LOS etc.

Mr Thaksin, We are farang, we await our fate.  

[mrentoul]

"Mr Thaksin wants to rid Thailand of capitalism and give the country back to the Thai people who should be proud of their country"

Could I be reading into this that changes will not be our favour and a immediate halt to all to farang enterprize is next?

I think you might be right, but I hope it's not true. Thaksin is good at beating the nationalistic drum.

He also seems to have forgotten just how he made his money (he's a billionaire): it wasn't under communism, that's for sure, though it should probably be caled 'cronyism' rather than capitalism as the West knows it.

[sevinnow]

Agree with both posts.

Seems a little coincidental that the annoucement of the visa increase coincided with the IMF loan payment, as part of the IMF loan agreement was to allow less restrictions for farangs.

Certainly want to think he is on his soap box again but still get a little nervious of his intentions.

Regards

Sev

[singa-traz]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/010803_News/01Aug2003_news07.html

[Bob Chittie]

As I just wrote in another post, the richest (or second richest) man of a country shouldn't be the political leader of that country. Does he really think that farangs owning condos and spending their money here does not benefit the thai economy in any meaningful way? He's living in billionare fantasy land. I hope his plans come back to haunt him.

[JT65]

Has anyone answered the obvious question regarding Mr Big!

Why does he and his Government dislike Foreigners so much. I for the life of me am baffled by this. My country is host to a lot more Thai people than they have foreigners here. So why the animosity?  Any enlightenment on this question would be greatly appreciated.

???

[Bob Chittie]

I think it comes down to the fact that they are a very nationalistic people. They have much pride in their heritage. And rightly so seeing as all their neighbours were taken over by invaders and they were not. At the same time, they obviously want to be a part of the interantional community so I can only predict that they will find themselves in a situation at some point where they regret this current stance.

[sevinnow]

Anyone have an idea how long the PM has in office before he is replaced?

The way things are going Thailand will end up a very poor neighbour to Cambodia.

Regards

Sev

???

[TRIPxCORE]

I have been saying for a while now that the Thai government just keeps pushing away foreign capital that we, as foreigners, keep trying to bring into the country for living, investment, etc, etc.  It is a wrong move and is not limited to the current Thaksin administration but he does seem to be more extreme that previous others.  I can understand having a nationalistic attitude and having pride but the government has to understand that they are still a third world country and if they want to catch up with modern times and try to be on par with major industialised nations that they will need foreign capital and foreign people to advise them and bring in fresh ideas.  Almost every major project is accomplished inside LOS with the help of foreigners one way or another.

Examples:

1. Skytrain---(Siemens)

2. Underground subway was worked on by some of my British friends that I know inside BKK.

3. Almost every modern 5 star hotel in-country is owned and managed by foreign companies.

These are just a few.........

[mrentoul]

Almost every major project is accomplished inside LOS with the help of foreigners one way or another.

The PM says some things for his domestic audience that are not always in keeping with the messages he wants his international audience to hear. It is the same way for all politicians, particularly national leaders.

Thaksin has come under pressure from NGOs and nationalistic, left-leaning types to change economic laws introduced at the IMF's urging under the last government, and which opened the country to foreigners.

He says some of those laws will indeed be changed, presumably to keep more of Thailand for Thais. But Thaksin is no fool. He knows foreign investment money is a good thing and on other occasions has strongly supported it.

Even if he does change the 11 so-called economic laws, the changes may not amount to much: all show and no substance.

Before the IMF debt issue came along his government reviewed the laws and found there was little there that needed changing.

Maybe he's changed his mind now that he's free of the IMF...

but I doubt it. The country is still heavily indebted to overseas creditors and he knows it.

Here's something from a recent piece in the Bangkok Post:

The previous channelling of budgets into reviving banks and financial institutions had done little to spur the economy, Mr Thaksin said.

The government was also working toward removing hurdles hindering development in the manufacturing sector, which he said was the economy's engine-room.

In addition, he said steady progress was being made on amendments to 11 laws that were introduced to attract foreign investment during the economic downturn.

However, he rejected calls to repeal the laws, which opponents claimed threatened the country's sovereignty.

Mr Thaksin insisted he would not bow to pressure from businessmen who had sponsored demonstrations against the legislation.

Incidentally, some of the best (and nastiest) economics/business coverage of Thailand I've found in the Economist newspaper of London. It's worth a look.

[sevinnow]

On reflection I don't believe he will make any financial penelities against the farangs immediately (he's already achieved that with the new visa charges) but will make it more frustrating with the documentation required for small investors.

Further I believe he only wants to encourage BOI investers ie: 40 million baht plus, but if the sqeeze becomes not worth the pain, then watch neighbouring countries open up, anyone speak Loas?

Regards

Sev

???

[JT65]

If he is only interested in the BOI Investors as you mentioned, ie 40 million plus , what are his plans for the small exporters like myself.  I make purchases in Thailand of around $150k a year consisting of mainly handicrafts, furniture , silks & ceramics etc. We average a container every 8 weeks.  I have a wide range of people I purchase from totalling over 60 small producers around Thailand.  I currently am issued with a Non Immigrant Multiple Entry B Visa which is great for me as I travel to my own country within any 3 months period, although I do spent the majority of my time in Thailand as I have no choice due to the volume of different stock we deal in.  Does Mr Big plan to stop people like me doing business here after we have established several retail outlets and a courntry wide wholesale business in our own country dealing in only Thai produced products?  After reading this board for the last week and talking to local Expats I am starting to get concerned about my last 3 years work.  Im sure the Thai producers who I purchase these goods from will not be too happy to see me go due to the fact that several of them have purchased new cars, houses etc from this type of business with Foreigners.

In addition most of my income which comes from my own country is spent during my stay in Thailand.  I didnt notice exactly when it was that Thailand progressed from a developing nation to a country who just isnt interested in deals unless they are over the US$1million.  

Another expat recently made the comment to me " Thailand is a developing country with very under developed thinking". At them time I personally thought it was a bit harsh but now I am tending to agree.

[sevinnow]

JT,

Your concern is very understandable and alot of very intelligent farang with a similar commitment like yours so although the small investor (not BOI Approved) will be able to continue as they are for a couple of years at least, my personal believe is "Plan B" is worth taking into consideration.

When I originally planned my investment into Thailand I was convinviced that one needed a "Plan B" as a security against what could happen, although I did not think it would come for at least another 10 years.

This may be hind-sight but to not to be aware is not to be in control in my veiw, let us all have this subjuct of conversation in 5 years time not 5 months time.

Regards

Sev

[Bob Chittie]

 I make purchases in Thailand of around $150k a year consisting of mainly handicrafts, furniture , silks & ceramics etc. We average a container every 8 weeks.  I have a wide range of people I purchase from totalling over 60 small producers around Thailand.  I currently am issued with a Non Immigrant Multiple Entry B Visa which is great for me as I travel to my own country within any 3 months period,

Hi JT,

I don't know if you followed the debate, but there are a number of people here who would insist that what you are doing is illegal. They say a non-im b only allows you to come and apply for a work permit, NOT to work. Only once you receive a work permit (for which you must either own a company here with registered capital of 2 million baht or be sponsored by a thai company) can you particiapte in exporting. What is your expoerience and opinion? Also, do you have an export license? If not, shipping a container every eight weeks, have you ever run into any problems? Finally, how do you get the non-im B visa? (What documentation do you have to supply the consulate?) Thanks!

[easymoney]

Ladies and Gentlemen

This is my two cents on the matters at hand.

I have lived here in Thailand since late 60's, have been a consultant to several different goverments (mostly bad) I speak both fluent Thai and Mandrian. I have to this day never let anyone know I speak either,to include my wife and children. This has given me an insight to the enter workings and thoughts of the Thai goverment.

For one thing remember this, that the goverment is mainly run by farang Chinese who have Thai citizenship. They don't want any other farangs to gain entry  into their private domain.

The gentleman running the country has been anti farang almost all his life and it was enhanced when he studied at Eastern Kentucky  which is a coal mining backward part of the US especially in early 70's. He then went to Sam Houston State in Texas which is WASP as they get good old boy town. He was a very small and meek person then and that was exploited by his peers. I don't think he ever recovered from that.

The general feeling around the cabinet and the office is that tourist are stupid and can be exploited for much more dollars than can expats who have already blown the majority of their wealth here and only the pension checks are still coming. I certainly don't agree with this but that is their thinking.

Their thinking is shallow and is laced with great emotion. I once asked a couple years ago at a social gathering that included my high ranking advisors that were educated (Phd's) and lived in US Eastern seaboard for decades before returning to advise the present goverment ,how many book s or novels had they read this year and in the entire group not one had. They were all anti American but that is the flavor of choice at this time.

The only advice I have is to prepare for the worse as I think he will close the noose until the roof caves in. But, remember when it does the Farang(Chinese Farang) will be the villian

[dr_Pat_Pong]

There are a few pedants hereabouts, and alas, I have to become one of them. A ferang is a white person of European extraction, to talk of Chinese farangs is a conflict in term.

[samuisam]

Post from daveyo in having babies topic:

Posted: Aug. 01 2003,20:12

  Breaking News Gang, guess what was in the paper today on Bangkok Post.  Thailand paid off their debt to the IMF, but the real scoop was in a paragraph, outlying their grandiose plans concerning the foreigners that are in Thailand.  They are going to do away with foreigners owning Condos and also apartments, and they are going to forbid any of us owning anything here in Thailand.  The businesses are now being threatened.  All of us foreigners here in Thailand are now in danger of losing our investments.  They are going to ban us from owning businesses of over 49% and this same business that has property we will not own the property that the business is sitting on.  Bottom line is Thailand is going to strip just about everything to foreigners here and they now have the ability to do so because the IMF agreement is no longer being enforced since the debt is paid off.

The only reason we got such ability to own a condo or an apartment here is because the IMF forced the Thailand government to make such gesture in exchange for that huge loan.

If you not believe me, buy the Bangkok Post dated August 1st, 2003.  Read it.

Please pass this warning to all Expiates in this forum.  If you got a business here, BEWARE  and get ready to sell out or you will lose whatever you have in Thailand once they get finished drafting the new rules and laws within this month or next.  It is expected that the new rules and laws will take effect on January 1st 2004.  Especially those owning any Condos and or Apartments.   All of us will lose this ownership shortly. And also any leases so done by foreigners will also be changed to reflect the new rules thus preventing us from even obtaining any leases of any kind. 

George and Dr. Pat Pong, and Boo, and my dear friends, we EXPIATES  are now in deep trouble.   Thailand is closing the doors on us PERMANENTLY.

Last word  I received is the Non-Immigrant B Visas will be abolished and become not existent within the near future.  It is also understood that the method of having a Thai National support us is also going to be phased out and also not exist.  Bottom line it will not matter if we are married to a Thai National or not, they are going to doom us and kill the golden eggs.

THEY DON'T WANT US LIVING IN THEIR LAND, SO GANG THEY ARE TRULY NOW SINGING TO US THE ADIOS AMINGOS SONG.

I also got word today that they are going to phase out the 1 year visas and the 6 month visas.  They are only going to allow just the 90 day visas and this will be good for only 4 renewals.    After that we cannot get another visa for 1 year.  Currently they are starting the 6 month wait before re-entry, but now they are going to add another 6 months to it to make it a year.  This will also apply to the Retired individuals too.  

Just like I made the prediction 3 months ago of this happening, and now it is actually truly beginning to take shape and become a reality.

So my question to all of you.   What are we going to do now?

[MaiChai]

From the mumerings that I am starting to hear, it seems that it may become very difficult for foreigners with family ties in Thailand to maintain those ties within Thailand. If the situation becomes very difficult for foreigners, then I will have to uproot my family from Thailand and move them to my home country. It will have a major impact on foreign exchange and poor families upcountry supported by benefactors from abroad.

[singa-traz]

Last word  I received is the Non-Immigrant B Visas will be abolished and become not existent within the near future.  It is also understood that the method of having a Thai National support us is also going to be phased out and also not exist.  Bottom line it will not matter if we are married to a Thai National or not, they are going to doom us and kill the golden eggs.

THEY DON'T WANT US LIVING IN THEIR LAND, SO GANG THEY ARE TRULY NOW SINGING TO US THE ADIOS AMINGOS SONG.

I also got word today that they are going to phase out the 1 year visas and the 6 month visas.  They are only going to allow just the 90 day visas and this will be good for only 4 renewals.    After that we cannot get another visa for 1 year.  Currently they are starting the 6 month wait before re-entry, but now they are going to add another 6 months to it to make it a year.  This will also apply to the Retired individuals too.

Let's wait and see ... if MR Doom's predictions become a reality ...

Last word  I received is the Non-Immigrant B Visas will be abolished and become not existent within the near future ...

Can you ask your source of information to define near future ... 3, 6, 12 months ... or when pigs fly ? ...

Nonsense ...

[JT65]

Hi All

Is there any real facts behind what Samui Sam has written.  There is quite a lot of information in there and I cant for the life of me see where it is written in the Bangkok Post. Are these just suspicians from paranoid foreigners or is this the new reality which will soon be thrust upon us?

Any further info on where these restrictions have been publicized would be appreciated. My wife is having a heart attack at present over all this and soon so will some of my suppliers once they now the foreign purchasers are no more.

I find it all a bit ludicrous to say the least but then again I could say that about many things in this country so it is all certainly in the realm of possibility. Logical thinking and a forward big picture view do not seem to be part of the Thai decision makeing process.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I am with you Singa...politicians are stupid, but not totally mad. Perchance does this information come late at night after the knowledge seeker has had more than the convivial glass, from someone who has had more. The birth of urban myths is clearly evident.

[mrentoul]

have to this day never let anyone know I speak either,to include my wife and children.

Sure. A ready-made language just jumped into your head one night while you were sleeping?

They are going to do away with foreigners owning Condos and also apartments, and they are going to forbid any of us owning anything here in Thailand. If you not believe me, buy the Bangkok Post dated August 1st, 2003.  Read it.

Rubbish. I have read it; I even subbed it before it went in the paper (I work for the Post). It said no such thing.

Your ''information'' must be based on conversations, real or imagined, with the many powerful government figures who live in Samui. None of that detail has appeared in the Post.

[easymoney]

Dr.Pat-Pong I did not want to use the Thai word "Jiak" for the Chinese.

[ovenman]

The laws regarding the ownership of condos were amended somewhat post-IMF, but foreigners were able to own condos prior to the crash in 1997.  The ability of a foreigner to own a condo was not something that was suggested/brought about  by the IMF.

[TRIPxCORE]

Please pass this warning to all Expiates in this forum.  If you got a business here, BEWARE  and get ready to sell out or you will lose whatever you have in Thailand once they get finished drafting the new rules and laws within this month or next.  It is expected that the new rules and laws will take effect on January 1st 2004.  Especially those owning any Condos and or Apartments.   All of us will lose this ownership shortly. And also any leases so done by foreigners will also be changed to reflect the new rules thus preventing us from even obtaining any leases of any kind.

George and Dr. Pat Pong, and Boo, and my dear friends, we EXPIATES  are now in deep trouble.   Thailand is closing the doors on us PERMANENTLY.

Last word  I received is the Non-Immigrant B Visas will be abolished and become not existent within the near future.  It is also understood that the method of having a Thai National support us is also going to be phased out and also not exist.  Bottom line it will not matter if we are married to a Thai National or not, they are going to doom us and kill the golden eggs.

THEY DON'T WANT US LIVING IN THEIR LAND, SO GANG THEY ARE TRULY NOW SINGING TO US THE ADIOS AMINGOS SONG.

I also got word today that they are going to phase out the 1 year visas and the 6 month visas.  They are only going to allow just the 90 day visas and this will be good for only 4 renewals.    After that we cannot get another visa for 1 year.  Currently they are starting the 6 month wait before re-entry, but now they are going to add another 6 months to it to make it a year.  This will also apply to the Retired individuals too.

Ok this guy has got me sweating bullets now.  If any of this is true, can you please post a link or be kind enough to tell us all where you received this info?  I know the Thai government is somewhat anti-farang, but this is going to extremes.  It's a little hard to believe.

    Now for my reasoning disputing your post.  First of all, the IMF have only come into Thailand's life starting in 1997.  We all know that farang were living and working in Thailand long before that-even some of our members on this board.  So to say that the Thai PM wants to revert back to Thailand's old ways of no farang having anything to do with the country is misleading because Thailand's doors have never been completely shut to us.  Also, as foolish as we know the government can be, I dont think they are totally mad to completely turn away all that foreign capital.  Perhaps they want to make it a little more difficult for us in hopes that we wont even bother trying to stay there but I cant foresee a complete and utter ban!  I dont know of any country like that.  

    If what you are saying is true, then we'll all together have to pack up and go to Vietnam or the Philippines eh???????

[sevinnow]

Mr Thaksin has the believe that all the 3000 tourists aday that arrive in Thailand on average who spend approx 35,000 baht each during their 2 week stay, and the BOI approved investors are sufficient to sustain the income of the "Tourist" related exspected income.

The threat of educated small business men of minor investments are unneccessory to his long term plans of total power over his country, not forgetting he is a billionare in western terms, imagine that in Thai related terms!

Regards

Sev

:cool:

[MaiChai]

May I add that I thought allowing foreigners to buy condos was a way of helping all those property developers who could not sell their developments when the property market collapsed. I don't remember it being an IMF instigated thing.

[sevinnow]

Mai Chai,  the IMF made reccomendations to the Ministry on what conditions within it's financial structure would gain reputable regonition within the IMF Board of Advisors.

In other "words" let farangs invest in property and invest in small business's and the IMF loan would have certain restrictions lifted in the Thai Goverment's favour.

So the Thai Goverment at the time (being anti-farang) met the proposals/reccommendations half-way and implemented laws of only condo's purchases and land leases, even then they were optismistic that they would be able to pay off the loan advance of the term, hence agreeing to the certain conditions if they did.

Five years later and the powers want to remind the country just how self efficent they are now, and do not need to rely upon minimal income from farangs, just how wrong are they going to be!

Regards

Sev

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Sevin

reread Ovenman's posting of 06 August above. He is correct, that is how it was, and there were post crisis variations made, mostly on economic grounds to attempt to prime the pump. The urban myths are alive and well.