Why Is Thailand So Far Behind The West?

[daveh]

Yesterday, I was having an interesting discussion with my girlfriend. It started out by her asking a question, something along the lines of "Why is the sky blue?" And I gave her an answer. Then she asked, "Why are farang smarter than Thais?" Comparing the American and other economies in the west to Thailand's, she was wondering if there was a genetic reason. I told her I didn't think there was anything genitic about it. So then she wanted to know why the American economy was so much more advanced than that in Thailand.

This is quite a difficult question. The reasons I came up with are "Bad government, which leads to bad education, religion and supersitions, and corruption" I'm sure everything I mention leads to a poor economy, but I still don't see how that can explain the vast difference.

Singapore is not that far away, why are they so much more economically advanced than Thailand?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Yesterday, I was having an interesting discussion with my girlfriend. It started out by her asking a question, something along the lines of "Why is the sky blue?" And I gave her an answer. Then she asked, "Why are farang smarter than Thais?" Comparing the American and other economies in the west to Thailand's, she was wondering if there was a genetic reason. I told her I didn't think there was anything genitic about it. So then she wanted to know why the American economy was so much more advanced than that in Thailand.

This is quite a difficult question. The reasons I came up with are "Bad government, which leads to bad education, religion and supersitions, and corruption" I'm sure everything I mention leads to a poor economy, but I still don't see how that can explain the vast difference.

Singapore is not that far away, why are they so much more economically advanced than Thailand?

and so very much smaller.

[Richard W]

Mai pen rai?

[Chutney]

It may well have something to do with genetics. The USA, Britain, Europe, Australia etc. are very 'mixed' races... Mixing the genes may well increase something in the brain such as 'inventiveness' for example... or 'logic'... or some other aspect that would give a nation an advantage over the pure, or more pure races.

I'm no expert but surely Thailand has a considerable Chinese mix not to mention Laos, Cambodian, Burmese etc?

Personally I reckon Richards take is more likely. However, when it comes to swings and roundabouts the Thai attitude might be considerd the 'smart' approach.

[Richard W]

It may well have something to do with genetics. The USA, Britain, Europe, Australia etc. are very 'mixed' races... Mixing the genes may well increase something in the brain such as 'inventiveness' for example... or 'logic'... or some other aspect that would give a nation an advantage over the pure, or more pure races.

I'm no expert but surely Thailand has a considerable Chinese mix not to mention Laos, Cambodian, Burmese etc?

And don't forget the Mons either. I get the strong impression that the Mons were the main inhabitants of Central Thailand before the Thai-speakers arrived from the North. Isaan has a rich mixture of Austro-Asiatic peoples, though most of their languages seem to be on their last legs.

The mixture of Western Europe is not so great - one could claim it's just churning of a mix of Celtic and Germanic peoples, though others would point to mixtures of Paleolithic, late Mesolithic (retreat of the ice after the last significant glacial maximum) and Neolithic expansions.

However, Japan and Korea haven't done too badly, and they are each very homogeneous.

[guran]

It's merelely a matter of education.

An educated people will succeed.

The Thai educational system appears to be exceedingly mediocre.

[axl]

I wouldn't say Thailand is too far "behind"; it rather seems that it was overrun by a rapid evolution and left behind in keeping up with it.

[jackr]

However, Japan and Korea haven't done too badly, and they are each very homogeneous.

...also very westerized.

Ravisher has hit the nail on the head for you, Dave. The Thais are a tad lacking in the brain/inventiveness department and broad-mindedness. Typical corruption throughout all society ain't going to help growth much either.

As Richard says, though, mai pen rai.

I'd rather live among these great people and their lack of economic prowess rather than be stuck in the west with the rabble.

[Flummoxed]

Depends what you call advanced. I'm no hippy but the Inca's, before they capitulated to the Portugese/Spanish... and the Native American Indians before they capitulated to the pioneers... and the Aborigines before they capitulated to a bunch of convicts........ all lived tranquil lives and were quite happy without all this 'advancement' of war, religious and social unrest and a knackered environment.

Advancement my a.s.s.

[jackr]

Depends what you call advanced. I'm no hippy but the Inca's, before they capitulated to the Portugese/Spanish... and the Native American Indians before they capitulated to the pioneers... and the Aborigines before they capitulated to a bunch of convicts........ all lived tranquil lives and were quite happy without all this 'advancement' of war, religious and social unrest and a knackered environment.

Advancement my a.s.s.

Nice avatar Flummoxed...I take it she's not snoring?

[Flummoxed]

Is it possible to be in love with a cartoon charactar? I think I love her

Seriously though, I've got a much more racey one but I don't think the mods would let me get away with it

[Richard W]

Is it possible to be in love with a cartoon charactar? I think I love her

Seriously though, I've got a much more racey one but I don't think the mods would let me get away with it

I'm none too happy about having Flummoxed's heaving half-woman on display in the living room for my young daughter to ask me about.

[Richard W]

It may well have something to do with genetics. The USA, Britain, Europe, Australia etc. are very 'mixed' races... Mixing the genes may well increase something in the brain such as 'inventiveness' for example... or 'logic'... or some other aspect that would give a nation an advantage over the pure, or more pure races.

This perspective may get shot down in flames though in the next 20 years... when the Chinese inherit the earth. But I somehow doubt that the USA will allow that to happen.

The Chinese are not so pure.

If you look at Cavalli-Sforza's genetic trees, you'll see non-African umanitiy divided into three branches, which for convenience I will dub 'Caucasoid', 'North Mongoloid' and 'South Mongoloid'. In the edition I have to hand, the Caucasoid and North Mongoloid branches are actually more closely related to one another than to the South Mongoloid branches, but that may simply be because the South Mongoloid branch includes the Australian Aborigines. The Thais, Mon-Khmer and South Chinese are in the South Mongoloid branch. The Koreans, Japanese, Tibetans and Mongols are in the North Mongoloid branch. The North Chinese are not listed explicitly.

From this I conclude that the Chinese are a mix of North and South Mongoloid, in whcih case they are at least as mixed as the Western Europeans.

[pop3]

If we're so clever why do so many doctor's lawyer's bank manager's ect, ect, come over here and put their life saving's in somebody elses name ?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If we're so clever why do so many doctor's lawyer's bank manager's ect, ect, come over here and put their life saving's in somebody elses name ?

They are having their life decisions made by their second head.

[Stocky]

If we're so clever why do so many doctor's lawyer's bank manager's ect, ect, come over here and put their life saving's in somebody elses name ?

Good one Pops!

[katyusha]

'North Mongoloid' and 'South Mongoloid'

The older generation of sociocultural anthropologists and geneticists like Cavalli-Sforza are linguistic dinosaurs.

"Mongoloid" has been the medical term used to describe Down Syndrome sufferers for more than a century, and as such it has become almost politically incorrect to use the word to describe natives of Mongolia.

I know you meant no offense, but we are "Mongols" or "Mongolian", never "Mongoloid".

[Abandon]

I think the industrial revolution began with the west, in particular England and Germany, muchly because of the climate. Where there are long hard winters, and short growing seasons people need to use their brains to organize and be inventive, in order to survive. Also, the large difference in seasons means that you need to find alternatives to farming during winter months. Modern America, you will note, all began in the north east where there is a large difference in climate through the seasons. And the pioneers also had to use ingenuity and inventiveness in order to tame the land and carve out a community. Only very recently has the population exploded in the south, but again, with the pioneering spirit.

Thailand, and many other hot places, has an abundance of food, of animals, of fruit. It is simply not so hard to get by here (historically) as things grow almost as soon as you put them in the ground.

Rome and Greece probably grew due to being coastal giving better communications, and because they were the first large centres of organized population. Organization being the key there.

There are colder, more hostile places than northern europe. But northern europe has the balance of a fertile land with water, and the long hard winters requiring better clothes, houses (compare to Thai country houses), food storage... Hence the agricultral, and then the industrial revolutions. These are the people that populated America, and were forced to rely on their know how and practicality to civilize the land. Also could explain why Westerners are more industrial/stressed and Asians less industrial/peaceful.

So I guess the climate was just to bountiful for Asia to host the industrial revolution, and so lags somewhat. Singapore was westernised by the colonial powers to a much higher degree than other places in Asia due to it's vital location as a port. I have no doubt that America will be left behind more quickly than people imagine. I have a 75 year old American grandfather, who says that when he was young, England was considered the main superpower.

[Limbo]

The mixture of Western Europe is not so great

- one could claim it's just churning of a mix of Celtic and Germanic peoples, though others would point to mixtures of Paleolithic, late Mesolithic (retreat of the ice after the last significant glacial maximum) and Neolithic expansions.

No Professor, historically seen 'the mixture of Western Europe' is called America, the melting pot.

And 'the mixture of Western Europe' is certainly not related to ancient kinds of ice-cream.

For our Thai members:

When representatives of the different old Europeans cultures emigrated to America, they had to submit to the greatest common denominator.

It was not 'the total' which became more than the sum of its parts, it regretfully became 'a total' less than the sum of its parts.

And I apologize to you for my fellow members of this forum who think that, 'representing the western world' (whatever that might be) they are more intelligent than Thai people.

Only the idea shows us, that the opposite can be true.

[Limbo]

Dear Pandit35,

I hope it is clear that my epistle is not a reaction on your writing.

I am sure that you are looking in the right direction.

There are many aspects of intelligence. 'Social organization' is one of them.

The interesting thing is indeed that climate seems to play an important role for the development of the organization of society.

The most wealthy and well-organized countries, with average ages of their inhabitants of nearly eighty years, are without exception 'cold' countries as Canada, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Is it the need for co-operation which explains social development? Why do the Netherlands and Denmark belong to the toppers as well? Their necessarely collective fights against the water, threatening their countries?

All European countries have a free healthcare system for all their citizens.

As one of the few Asian countries, also Thailand has a free healthcare system for all its citizens.

Nor in Europe, nor in Thailand this system always works perfect, but it exists and gets better and better.

If you look at less civilized countries like the US, Mexico, the Latin American and African countries, you see that access to healthcare is not seen as a normal situation.

There is no moral right to exist. You pay or you die.

Since the bigger international humanitarian help-organizations recently more and more concentrate on mega-projects the situation for the poor in America will become worse. The official number of American poor people is 35,8 million and 45 million Americans don't have health insurance.

And who has to help them if their own people don't do?

[daveh]

I remember taking a class in university. It was economics of underdeveloped nations. Basically, the question was, what should a country do to become more developed. It was during the time when Hillary Clinton was making a big stink about socialized medicine and one nonthinking student suggested "free healthcare" would help make a country more developed. The professor laughed, as did I. In our lifetimes we have seen examples of countries where econmic development was stiffled even though they free healthcare. The professor mentioned those countries in eastern Europe. He posed a question to the student, "If you are working 14 hours a day to have enough food for your family, is healthcare going to be the top thing on your mind?"

Throughout the semester, arguments were made that suggested the three most important things were property rights, madatory free basic education, and infrastructure.

Without property rights, physical or intellectual, there is no incentive for private investment. Why build a factory when someone can come and claim it for themselves? Why spend so much money to innovate and create a new process for making steel if someone else can simply use your idea after you invested so much coming up with it? Without property rights, the economy stagnates.

Without mandatory free basic education, many families would be better off simply having their children help harvest the fields. This means, the their entire childhood, children only learn how to do one thing, that is to grow wheat, potatoes, or rice. And worse, they only know how to do it the same way their parents did. By providing mandatory education, children can see a different way of life than that of their parents. So while it may hurt the families to who will lose someone when it comes time to plant or harvest, society as a whole benefits.

And the last is infrastructure. Roads, schools, hospitals, electricity, phones, and clean drinking water. These things are essential in order to allow a society to grow beyond how far they can walk. No one would be willing to build a factory if there was no way to support that factory or transport the final products to market.

In all three case, I think Thailand is somewhat lacking. But then the question is why? Why do people settle for this?

I don't think there is anything genetic about it all. I think it is 100% cultural. We are products of our environment. I think if you take any Thai person and raise them in a different country, they will not be less likely to be logical, innovative, or intelligent. But those qualities do not seem to be rewarded here. There is defiinitely a class system that hinders their advancement.

[bollox]

Curiosity killed the cat !

[Limbo]

There is definitely a class system that hinders their advancement.

Dear professor Daveh,

You might have misunderstood my lines about free healthcare.

Free healthcare (so called free, it is financed by public means, thereby showing solidarity between healthy and sick people) does not directly stimulate the economy as such (unless the part of the health-industry).

So it doesn't develop a country in an economical sense. But it certainly contributes to an image of civilisation.

I gratulate Thailand on this!

But as I have to join your way of thinking I just as well can say that a good functioning free healthcare system raises the average health-level in a country. People live healthier, happier and longer and are therefore more productive.

And I know that, sad enough, the poverty in the US forces many people to have more than one job. They have less time to see (let be educate) their children, with all misery that follows.

So you (I understand you are a US-citizen) had more opportunity to speak to somebody who works 14 hours a day to make ends meet and actually asked him or her about the vision on free healthcare.

Maslov, my dear Professor Daveh, Maslov! How could you forget?

When free healthcare is so shocking to you, you might not even manage to listen to the expression 'minimum income'. Does Professor Daveh know, that Europeans have choosen for minimum income as a human right? Nobody has to work for more than 36 hours a week. If the wages are not high enough the government (read the community) will ad to your income what you need to have a decent life. And to a decent life belongs that you have time for your kids. Civilisation!

Look at Sweden, one of the best organized countries in the world. Almost all public services are free and the people can be considered as the richest in the world (compare their living standard with elsewhere).

And then, Professor Daveh (now I am getting a little bit angry at you), you should know better, I come to your 'class system' in Thailand. Did you finish your studies professor, or are you just keeping up images?

Professor Daveh heard bells ring but didn't know where the clapper was hanging (?). He comes with a Marxist explanation of the structure of Thai society!!!

Good night Professor Daveh, sleep well!

[penelope]

she was wondering if there was a genetic reason.

my thai wife has a MBA from a western university. a bit of nature, a bit of nurture, a bit of good luck in being exposed to good education, a lot of hard work. no different to me really, a westerner.

[Abandon]

Free healthcare. I read that the point was not free health care or not, free = better or worse, but it was an example of the collective spirit and organization in countries that have fertile land, but harsh winters.

Look at Sweden, one of the best organized countries in the world. Almost all public services are free and the people can be considered as the richest in the world (compare their living standard with elsewhere).

Sweden also has the world's highest suicide rete if I'm not mistaken. (but also one of the lowest homicide rates - so take your pick)

[sas_cars]

Lot of high knowledge posts here.This post is getting some sort of an educational stuff

[SK1972]

QUOTE (pop3 @ Mon 2004-10-25, 08:32:27)

If we're so clever why do so many doctor's lawyer's bank manager's ect, ect, come over here and put their life saving's in somebody elses name ? 

They are having their life decisions made by their second head. 

Wow, well said Pat Pong!!!...............this is the FIRST time I have seen a Man post this!! Cheers!!

I do not think that all Thais are backward, it all depends on the upbringing, nuturing and education. Most of the overseas educated ones are all right.......although some tend to fall back to their old fashioned ways.

It also depends on the individuals' abilities and initiative. Some do nothing to improve and some try so hard to better themselves.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

QUOTE (pop3 @ Mon 2004-10-25, 08:32:27)

If we're so clever why do so many doctor's lawyer's bank manager's ect, ect, come over here and put their life saving's in somebody elses name ? 

They are having their life decisions made by their second head. 

Wow, well said Pat Pong!!!...............this is the FIRST time I have seen a Man post this!! Cheers!!

I do not think that all Thais are backward, it all depends on the upbringing, nuturing and education. Most of the overseas educated ones are all right.......although some tend to fall back to their old fashioned ways.

It also depends on the individuals' abilities and initiative. Some do nothing to improve and some try so hard to better themselves.

God gave man a dick and a brain ... but sadly he didn't give him enough blood to run 'em together.

[SK1972]

God gave man a dick and a brain ... but sadly he didn't give him enough blood to run 'em together. 

Hahahahaha.....................Errr.........Pat Pong............are you sure you are a bloke??

[Nat]

Curiosity killed the cat !

But at least it died satisfied