Volunteer Opportunity

[FarangCravings]

John you have already been invited to visit the station and see what the big boss has to say so unless you are going to take up the invite let sleeping dogs lie

[sriracha john]

And as such, until such time that something is provided in a formal manner and written documentation of the exemption or waiver or special permit or whatever they are calling it this week is produced, this thread is merely a solicitation on thaivisa to do illegal work.... for which the forum may not wish to put itself in the position of promoting.

Its for volunteers, to help kids that otherwise wouldn't get this help...... Why not come to this forum and say something like:

'I'm not going to work without a permit, however for you that do good luck to you and well done for giving your time to those that need it' rather than getting on your usual tracks of trying to put this down too... like the police volunteers.

< flame snipped >

Go home...............................

As a new member, perhaps you may wish to review the forum rules regarding flaming.

but other than saying I am home, I'll let it slide.

Don't confuse my comments with voicing negativity about the altruistic nature of volunteers. It is not about that.

I was a volunteer myself. For years. Until I learned how much jeopardy I was placing myself in by doing the exact same thing as this thread talks about.

Fair enough.... But like i said why do you have to turn this thread into a discussion about the laws and what can and cant be done?

It didn't start of that way, the title wasn't 'Can I volunteer here' it was advertising an opportunity.

SO as I said last I believe a reply along the lines of I'm not going to work without a permit, however for you that do good luck to you and well done for giving your time to those that need it' would of been more suited.

I think it's important that people realize what the archaic laws state and what the ramifications are for violating them. When I volunteered I was completely unaware of the illegal nature of the work I was doing.

Obviously through this thread and other similar threads there are many others who still are unaware of these important factors.

I've previously stated in other threads something akin to what you post above, but in hindsight, I realize that was wrong and it's something I won't do again as it's rather deceptive and condones the archaic law indirectly.

Those protesting my protestations should consider expending efforts efforts to rectify the law itself. Push the mayor or whomever is allegedly, albeit wrongly, authorizing this work to push for a work permit exemption letter or some other decree or ruling from the Labour Ministry.

Over time I'm sure many have tried and many have failed.... TIT

I do understand your point, In my opinion any volunteer work (without pay) should be exempt... Obviously any paid position should require. But again TIT

Precisely my point. It is the same opinion that I came here with and was my assumption that I would not require one as the thought that I as a volunteer would need a work permit was ludricrous.... and that if I was found out, I was subjecting myself to prosecution, fine, jail time, deportation, and blacklisting... that was until I found out that, indeed, it is the truth.... and it was at that time that, much to my chagrin, I stopped.

Edited June 6, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

John you have already been invited to visit the station and see what the big boss has to say so unless you are going to take up the invite let sleeping dogs lie

Not wishing to rile up old sleeping K-9 police dogs, I take it then that you are still unable to produce the documentation that meets the requirements of the Labour Ministry.

Edited June 6, 2008 by sriracha john

[sylviex]

In my opinion any volunteer work (without pay) should be exempt...

I see good arguments for that, too.

However, any government will presumably wish to monitor volunteer activities of foreign individuals and groups *in some way*.

In the case of teaching children, I cannot accept that the requirements should not be just as strict for volunteer teaching as for paid work. The requirements for the volunteer teachers of 11-12 y.o. children were given above as esl qualified or on the recommendation of the Chiang Mai Friends committee. I am wondering who exactly are the commitee members, what are their qualifications for making these assessments and how will they screen the volunteer teachers ?

Edited June 6, 2008 by sylviex

[FarangCravings]

John you have already been invited to visit the station and see what the big boss has to say so unless you are going to take up the invite let sleeping dogs lie

Not wishing to rile up old sleeping K-9 police dogs, I take it then that you are still unable to produce the documentation that meets the requirements of the Labour Ministry.

Were sorted john it has been raised and addressed please feel free to head down to TPD HQ see the big boss and I am sure after that you wont have an issue and can let the bone go. (i doubt it though LOL

[tipsy]

In my opinion any volunteer work (without pay) should be exempt...

I see good arguments for that, too.

However, any government will presumably wish to monitor volunteer activities of foreign individuals and groups *in some way*.

In the case of teaching children, I cannot accept that the requirements should not be just as strict for volunteer teaching as for paid work. The requirements for the volunteer teachers of 11-12 y.o. children were given above as esl qualified or on the recommendation of the Chiang Mai Friends committee. I am wondering who exactly are the commitee memebers, what are their qualifications for making these assessments and how will they screen the volunteer teachers ?

I do agree that the requirements for both paid and volunteer should be the same..... In regards to qualifications, experience, criminal history etc etc but this doesnt have anything to do with a work permit.

These 'volunteers' no matter what they are doing (police, teaching) are doing good.

They are giving their time, their knowledge and their experience for free to make something better, to improve what probaly couldn't happen otherwise without funding.

I understand the issue with the work permit however unless all our voices join together (which I doubt too as we all seem to just argue with each other) I very much doubt 1 person can make a difference, I just get angry at times that I never see a comment saying 'well done' to these guys and I think they deserve it.

[sriracha john]

John you have already been invited to visit the station and see what the big boss has to say so unless you are going to take up the invite let sleeping dogs lie

Not wishing to rile up old sleeping K-9 police dogs, I take it then that you are still unable to produce the documentation that meets the requirements of the Labour Ministry.

Were sorted john it has been raised and addressed please feel free to head down to TPD HQ see the big boss and I am sure after that you wont have an issue and can let the bone go. (i doubt it though LOL

With all due respect, you are absolutely not "sorted" until you have either a work permit or a work permit exemption letter.

If the police volunteers are ever provided with either, I look forward to their getting posted so as to resolve this issue.

Edited June 6, 2008 by sriracha john

[sylviex]

I do agree that the requirements for both paid and volunteer should be the same..... In regards to qualifications, experience, criminal history etc etc but this doesnt have anything to do with a work permit.

It does in practice, as you won't get a WP if you can't meet the requirements. The WP is one way to keep tabs on people.

These 'volunteers' no matter what they are doing (police, teaching) are doing good.

I'd like to think that is generally true. However, they have a whole array of motives, sometimes not entirely altruistic and and on some occasions, quite the opposite.

(Let me hasten to add that I am not implying the latter about the motives of people involved in this case. I don't know them at all; am simply suggesting certain aspects of the project may be ill-advised.)

Edited June 6, 2008 by sylviex

[FarangCravings]

With all due respect, you are absolutely not "sorted" until you have either a work permit or a work permit exemption letter.

If the police volunteers are ever provided with either, I look forward to their getting posted so as to resolve this issue.

LOL your hilarious John let go for gods sake

[sriracha john]

I just get angry at times that I never see a comment saying 'well done' to these guys and I think they deserve it.

I'll gladly post a well-deserved "well done" to any volunteer that provides a work permit or work permit exemption letter because they persevered where I wasn't able to.

[tipsy]

I do agree that the requirements for both paid and volunteer should be the same..... In regards to qualifications, experience, criminal history etc etc but this doesnt have anything to do with a work permit.

It does in practice, as you won't get a WP if you can't meet the requirements. The WP is one way to keep tabs on people.

These 'volunteers' no matter what they are doing (police, teaching) are doing good.

I'd like to think that is generally true. However, they have a whole array of motives, sometimes not entirely altruistic and and on some occasions, quite the opposite.

Surely this is a requirement of the 'job' and not of the work permit? Interview/Screening of all applicants I would say is the way to keep tabs on these guys/girls.

And your secong comment..... my glass is generaly half full

[sriracha john]

With all due respect, you are absolutely not "sorted" until you have either a work permit or a work permit exemption letter.

If the police volunteers are ever provided with either, I look forward to their getting posted so as to resolve this issue.

LOL your hilarious John let go for gods sake

uhmmm... it was you guys who brought it up? Can you let your rationalizations go?

[sylviex]

Surely this is a requirement of the 'job' and not of the work permit? Interview/Screening of all applicants I would say is the way to keep tabs on these guys/girls.

We're going in circles. I have stated I don't think the WP is necessarily the best way to monitor volunteers. It's fulfilling that function to some extent, though.

And your secong comment..... my glass is generaly half full

Where kids are involved, far, far better to err on the side of caution, surely ?

[tipsy]

Surely this is a requirement of the 'job' and not of the work permit? Interview/Screening of all applicants I would say is the way to keep tabs on these guys/girls.

We're going in circles. I have stated I don't think the WP is necessarily the best way to monitor volunteers. It's fulfilling that function to some extent, though.

And your secong comment..... my glass is generaly half full

Where kids are involved, far, far better to err on the side of caution, surely ?

I still disagree with the WP situation that you feel and I didnt think your 2nd comment was in regards to the kids. If it was I agree of course

[emh1969]

Hmmm..well I do appreciate this discussion. Gives me some insight into the ins and outs of volunteering in Thailand. I originally wasn't planning on doing any volunteering while I was here but my original plans fell through so now I'm giving it some thought. And heck, I just finished volunteering in Mexico which I also wasn't supposed to be doing...and I was volunteering for a government organization no less! I suppose the decision on whether or not to volunteer is at least based on one's risk tolerance. Seems like the chances of getting caught would be pretty slim. And I did some digging and came up with this thread which discusses teaching in Thailand without a work permit...seems like lots of people are doing that (including in Chiang Mai) and the government generally looks the other way. I have a hard time believing that they'd be tougher on volunteers than they'd be on English teachers, as long as you keep your nose out of trouble.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184694

[sriracha john]

and yet.... hundreds are caught somehow... someway...

Behaving well does not totally exclude one from being discovered.... as I'm sure these people mostly felt that they "would be ok if they kept their noses clean"....

The penalty for working without a valid work permit in Thailand is basically the same as for overstay:

Jail, fine, deportation and possibly blacklisted from entering the Kingdom again.

Read this info: http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

I repeat, there are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit.

About 200 western foreigners per year are deported for illegal work.

Edited June 6, 2008 by sriracha john

[ovenman]

I have a hard time believing that they'd be tougher on volunteers than they'd be on English teachers, as long as you keep your nose out of trouble.

You might want to take a look-see at this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26847

[sriracha john]

I have a hard time believing that they'd be tougher on volunteers than they'd be on English teachers, as long as you keep your nose out of trouble.

You might want to take a look-see at this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26847

Indeed, I can't think of a greater altruistic effort than those volunteers who sought to help out during the biggest calamity Thailand faced in a century or more... and were hounded like they were common criminals for wanting to do so.

[emh1969]

and yet.... hundreds are caught somehow... someway...

Behaving well does not totally exclude one from being discovered.... as I'm sure these people mostly felt that they "would be ok if they kept their noses clean"....

The penalty for working without a valid work permit in Thailand is basically the same as for overstay:

Jail, fine, deportation and possibly blacklisted from entering the Kingdom again.

Read this info: http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

I repeat, there are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit.

About 200 western foreigners per year are deported for illegal work.

1) Do you have actual evidence for the number of Westerners who are deported from Thailand each year for doing illegal work? Not sure who "george" is but I'd trust seeing something more official.

2) Even if the 200 is true, one wonders how many of them were engaged in the world's oldest profession.

3) Again, assuming the 200 figure is accurate it lacks any sort of context. If there are 1,000 Westerner's who work illegally in Thailand each year, then 200 deportations is a lot. If there are 100,000, then it looks a lot, lot smaller.

[sriracha john]

george is the Administrator of Thaivisa:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showuser=128

[emh1969]

george is the Administrator of Thaivisa:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showuser=128

That's nice. Doesn't mean he knows anything about how many Westerner's get deported from Thailand each year for working without a permit. Nor does it address any of the other issues I raised. And about the only evidence that I could find of a volunteer being deported was this guy:

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3777

[Maejo Man]

That's nice. Doesn't mean he knows anything about how many Westerner's get deported from Thailand each year for working without a permit. Nor does it address any of the other issues I raised. And about the only evidence that I could find of a volunteer being deported was this guy:

I would suggest a visit to Suan Plu on your next trip to Bangkok and ask all the inmates exactly what they are being deported for, it might give you some insight. Personally I have known many aliens over the years that have been deported for not having a valid work permit, with some being from Chiangmai. Names cannot be mentioned, but other long term members will recall them.

[ovenman]

I am sorry to ask..

Is this post about volunteers or about work permits?

It's about both. Go back to the original post. One paragraph was devoted to:

Here's the good thing...special permission is being given by the Chiang Mai Municipality to enable volunteer teachers to work without the usual requirements of a work permit.

[PeaceBlondie]

This topic is about both volunteers and work permits. Nobody in their right mind is saying it is immoral or evil to do volunteer work. We applaud the workers and their valuable contributions. We are arguing whether this kind of volunteer work puts their status as an alien at risk. All available evidence shows that doing such work without a WP violates the law of Thailand. I have lots of spare time to donate; I'm qualified, etc. But in a country where the government schools violate Thai law, I am not going to do illegal work for free. I worked for the government for 25K per month. I used to think it was worth 25K per month to stand at the gate in front of the entire community to be an English teacher. No more, if it is illegal.

Teachers teach illegally because they need the money. Why should they risk the heavy hand of the law for nothing?

[Loaded]

Getting back to some of the ops. It seems to me that the tessabahn office next to the US consulate has found a way to give its staff English lessons for free. Or maybe, the person organising the 'free' classes is receiving money from the office's budget to provide English classes and ... well old hands know the rest of the story. FYI the office used to pay for English classes for its staff.

[emh1969]

That's nice. Doesn't mean he knows anything about how many Westerner's get deported from Thailand each year for working without a permit. Nor does it address any of the other issues I raised. And about the only evidence that I could find of a volunteer being deported was this guy:

I would suggest a visit to Suan Plu on your next trip to Bangkok and ask all the inmates exactly what they are being deported for, it might give you some insight. Personally I have known many aliens over the years that have been deported for not having a valid work permit, with some being from Chiangmai. Names cannot be mentioned, but other long term members will recall them.

Not sure what your point is. I don't doubt that it happens. I'm only asking for accurate, verifiable numbers that provide some context. Which I guess you can't provide either. And if only long-term members will remember people from Chiang Mai being deported, that tells me that it hasn't happened in quite some time.

[sriracha john]

george is the Administrator of Thaivisa:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showuser=128

That's nice. Doesn't mean he knows anything about how many Westerner's get deported from Thailand each year for working without a permit. Nor does it address any of the other issues I raised. And about the only evidence that I could find of a volunteer being deported was this guy:

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3777

I won't speak for the Administrator of the Forum, so I would encourage you to PM him directly for the source details from his post.

Once you have been a member of the board for more than two weeks, you'll learn that he isn't one to make fictitious and mendacious statements in his postings.

Edited June 7, 2008 by sriracha john

[Maejo Man]

Not sure what your point is. I don't doubt that it happens. I'm only asking for accurate, verifiable numbers that provide some context. Which I guess you can't provide either. And if only long-term members will remember people from Chiang Mai being deported, that tells me that it hasn't happened in quite some time.

My point is that people do get deported for work permit imfringements, the last one that I knew of personally was an Italian gentleman that was arrested by immigration ploice and shipped down to Bangkok for deportation about nine months ago.

I very much doubt if you'll find any official figures anywhere, as like everything else that effects tourism......It's bad for the image, to say nothing of the pocket

[sriracha john]

This topic is about both volunteers and work permits. Nobody in their right mind is saying it is immoral or evil to do volunteer work. We applaud the workers and their valuable contributions. We are arguing whether this kind of volunteer work puts their status as an alien at risk. All available evidence shows that doing such work without a WP violates the law of Thailand. I have lots of spare time to donate; I'm qualified, etc. But in a country where the government schools violate Thai law, I am not going to do illegal work for free. I worked for the government for 25K per month. I used to think it was worth 25K per month to stand at the gate in front of the entire community to be an English teacher. No more, if it is illegal.

Teachers teach illegally because they need the money. Why should they risk the heavy hand of the law for nothing?

This was precisely the position I was in myself.

I found myself doing illegal work for no pay. Neither would I do illegal work for pay. When I thought that especially considering that I was jeopardizing my presence here for doing something which I very willingly gave completely freely of myself....the absurdity of the entire situation astounded me beyond belief.

I was richly rewarded for my volunteer efforts well beyond what any monetary return could provide.... and I am troubled that I am now deprived of those specific rewards... but it's the price one has to pay for wishing to be compliant with an agreeably arcane, enigmatic, mysterious, mystical, and puzzling law.

[emh1969]

george is the Administrator of Thaivisa:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showuser=128

That's nice. Doesn't mean he knows anything about how many Westerner's get deported from Thailand each year for working without a permit. Nor does it address any of the other issues I raised. And about the only evidence that I could find of a volunteer being deported was this guy:

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3777

I won't speak for the Administrator of the Forum, so I would encourage you to PM him directly for the source details from his post.

Once you have been a member of the board for more than two weeks, you'll learn that he isn't one to make fictitious and mendacious statements in his postings.

I don't doubt it. And I do want you to know that I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. One of my backgrounds is in data and research and I know full well how numbers can take on a life of their own and people start quoting numbers without really knowing what they mean, where they come from, or any of the context. And the next thing you know, that number becomes a "fact". So I'm a little leery when I see numbers without knowing what they represent, how they were collected, etc.

I also appreciate your thoughts on volunteering in Thailand and the potential dangers associated with it. You and others have definitely given me some things to think about.

But, here's a question. Does anyone actually know of a case in which someone was deported specifically because they were volunteering? I'm talking about maybe someone who was helping out at an orphanage or a conservation project. Yes, I realize they threatened the tsunami volunteers with deportation but it sounds like they gave them several months leeway first and in the end they didn't deport anyone (but I could be wrong about that). And the case, I linked to, it sounds like the guy volunteered for years and wasn't deported because of volunteering per se but because the government was starting to see him as a nuisance.