Volunteer Opportunity

[PeaceBlondie]

Harry, I do not think I will volunteer to work without a permit at this time. Maybe after I have lived in Chiang Mai twenty more years, and I can speak Thai fluently. Maybe after enough of us farang have explained our culture to the Thais in Thai language that they hear and understand. Maybe after the Thais change the laws of Thailand toward farang. Khun Boong did mention that formerly, farang could work in Thailand more freely. I encouraged her to try to get the laws changed to allow volunteer work without a work permit. I was careful not to tell her how Thailand should work, or what Thais should do. I tried to explain why so many farang are unwilling to do illegal volunteer work, regardless of how worthy the volunteer work is.

[sylviex]

I am pleased to hear that background checks are required.

"Flexibility" is always a worrisome word in a job description.

Sincere thanks to you, PeaceBlondie, for this good work performed on our behalf .

Edited June 13, 2008 by sylviex

[Steve2UK]

...........

We discussed blind eyes, as when the Thai officers turn a blind eye to illegal activities when they believe the illegal activities are good works. I am a one-eyed old man in this Kingdom, and I do not want to say too much about one-eyed old men here. But as lopburi3 said on the companion thread which is running in the “Thai Visas and work permits forum,:” “There are blind eyes, as with most laws, but when push comes to shove you do not want to be depending on that.”

So the answer is "no" - there is no work permit for this program, no written authorizations from Labour Ministry for waivers or exemptions. According to the nice Thai ladies, it simply does not matter, because it is for good works.

In the light of this information, it would be great if the "I told you so" posts could be kept to a minimum - let's not have crowing about revealing such a gaping hole in what most would regard as being generally a very worthwhile and praiseworthy scheme. That said, the soliciting of volunteers to "work" without work permit or waiver does plainly amount to promoting an act which is - at the very least - technically and demonstrably illegal. We all know where to find pirate DVD's, software etc - but it's illegal to buy them and consequently prohibited from discussion/promotion on this forum. Does anyone see a difference beyond the "good cause" factor here?

I have to say, the lady mayor by all reports I have seen does seem to be my kind of mayor - innovative, free-thinking and open. I can't pretend to understand all the political ins and outs of the mayoral election that she won - other than I know that there were concerted attempts by various pooyai to keep her from being included on the ballot until a few days before polling. The word was that the previous incumbent was due to be re-elected and her victory was quite an upset. Another poster here mentioned the Chiangmai Mail report that there were/are moves afoot to oust her - I think actually on the part of the previous administration's councillors rather than officials. I gather she previously stood ("ran" for US readers) for a national parliamentary seat on behalf of the Democratic Party. Whether or not that makes her current mayoral administration a Democratic entity per se, I can't help but feel that she's not the most obvious person to attract support from PPP ministers in Bangkok.

The point is this - even if you are happy to go with the "blind eye" notion [because it's a good cause etc], it doesn't take that much imagination to see someone politically opposed to her deciding to make trouble for her and throw a spotlight on this situation. "Nation's second-city mayor flouts national laws", "Thin end of the wedge" and so on........ From what we know of Thai politics, connections, wheels-within-wheels - does anyone doubt that this is possible and maybe even probable?

[HarryHacker]

Harry, I do not think I will volunteer to work without a permit at this time. Maybe after I have lived in Chiang Mai twenty more years, and I can speak Thai fluently. Maybe after enough of us farang have explained our culture to the Thais in Thai language that they hear and understand. Maybe after the Thais change the laws of Thailand toward farang. Khun Boong did mention that formerly, farang could work in Thailand more freely. I encouraged her to try to get the laws changed to allow volunteer work without a work permit. I was careful not to tell her how Thailand should work, or what Thais should do. I tried to explain why so many farang are unwilling to do illegal volunteer work, regardless of how worthy the volunteer work is.

A perfect answer as far as I'm concerned.

[sriracha john]

My main concern is the dissemination of accurate and factual information and, as such, no proof of legality has been provided...

It is still my main concern. Now that the "information booth" has been opened and I presume that anyone that has signed up AND reads the forum has been duly informed of their status and thus should not be under any illusion to the contrary.

My concern is for anyone that has signed on AND DOESN'T read the forum. Its a matter of informed consent. If people have been made fully aware of their status and still choose to work without proper permission, that's their perogative....those that haven't been made fully aware, should be and need to be.

Would the Thaivisa members who have applied be willing to make this information available to their fellow volunteers who don't read the board?

Edited June 13, 2008 by sriracha john

[sylviex]

The point is this - even if you are happy to go with the "blind eye" notion [because it's a good cause etc], it doesn't take that much imagination to see someone politically opposed to her deciding to make trouble for her and throw a spotlight on this situation. "Nation's second-city mayor flouts national laws", "Thin end of the wedge" and so on........ From what we know of Thai politics, connections, wheels-within-wheels - does anyone doubt that this is possible and maybe even probable?

Certainly not. That, specifically, is one of the greatest (and most obvious) risks of doing business Asian-style (building connections with influential people.)

If you are sharp, the profits from your time in the sunshine will get you through the winters of discontent ( mixed metaphors are such fun). Live by the sword, die by the sword.

In Asian countries, many people are tired of the constant power struggles and are seeking firmer ground. (Anybody counting ?) Asking for assurances of status under the law is emphatically not a case of telling another culture how to behave. Many Thais would support expats taking a stand on such issues.

If circumstances change, as they can and do, swiftly and inevitably here, an expat needs to be on the right side of the written law of the country.

[sylviex]

Forgot to add : foreigners are, almost without exception, not ever a part of any Asian in-groups.

When the power change shifts, an expat will be dropped even faster than an Asian suddenly non-gratis hot scone .

Let's keep working on establishing genuine legal rights for volunteers and other expat workers.

[slapout]

Now that that is sorted out?? My question and/or point is; How do the International schools get away with requireing students to do volunteer community service as a condition of graduation? The Thai students, ok, no problem, but the farang students I think, would fall under same arguments noted above.

[Mario2008]

I would say it's part of their study and therefore not considered work.

[Mapguy]

I would say it's part of their study and therefore not considered work.

Good answer.

[sylviex]

I would say it's part of their study and therefore not considered work.

Good answer.

Good question, all the same .

Why not ask it in the thread in the Visa subforum ?

[Loaded]

Good work PB.

Where's Richard to tell people they don't know what they're talking about. The problem with most farangs is that we (un)fortunately think toooooo much.

Edited June 14, 2008 by Loaded

[Rasseru]

Thank you, PB, for the trouble you took to look into this and to report what you learned.

[sriracha john]

My main concern is the dissemination of accurate and factual information and, as such, no proof of legality has been provided...

It is still my main concern. Now that the "information booth" has been opened and I presume that anyone that has signed up AND reads the forum has been duly informed of their status and thus should not be under any illusion to the contrary.

My concern is for anyone that has signed on AND DOESN'T read the forum. Its a matter of informed consent. If people have been made fully aware of their status and still choose to work without proper permission, that's their perogative....those that haven't been made fully aware, should be and need to be.

Would the Thaivisa members who have applied be willing to make this information available to their fellow volunteers who don't read the board?

In the absence of any positive responses, can we broaden the base and ask would any Thaivisa members who are members of the Chiang Mai Friends Group (sponsoring this project as per OP) to ensure that all the volunteers, who may not be TV members and thus have seen this thread, have been made fully aware of the news that has just now developed in this thread so that may make an informed decision on whether or not to continue participating?

Edited June 14, 2008 by sriracha john

[sylviex]

My main concern is the dissemination of accurate and factual information and, as such, no proof of legality has been provided...

It is still my main concern. Now that the "information booth" has been opened and I presume that anyone that has signed up AND reads the forum has been duly informed of their status and thus should not be under any illusion to the contrary.

My concern is for anyone that has signed on AND DOESN'T read the forum. Its a matter of informed consent. If people have been made fully aware of their status and still choose to work without proper permission, that's their perogative....those that haven't been made fully aware, should be and need to be.

Would the Thaivisa members who have applied be willing to make this information available to their fellow volunteers who don't read the board?

In the absence of any positive responses, can we broaden the base and ask would any Thaivisa members who are members of the Chiang Mai Friends Group (sponsoring this project as per OP) to ensure that all the volunteers, who may not be TV members and thus have seen this thread, have been made fully aware of the news that has just now developed in this thread so that may make an informed decision on whether or not to continue participating?

Problem is, sriracha john, the members of CM Friends who are also ThaiVisa members (a few are sponsors, too) are not commenting or taking responsibility.

You don't need to be a member of ThaiVisa to read the posts, either. I think it's a safe bet all the Friends are by now well aware there has been some questioning of their program.

The only answer has been "ask Khun Boong". I think it's quite a shame she has been put in this position. She may not be comfortable communicating via internet, but plenty of other Friends are.

[sriracha john]

My main concern is the dissemination of accurate and factual information and, as such, no proof of legality has been provided...

It is still my main concern. Now that the "information booth" has been opened and I presume that anyone that has signed up AND reads the forum has been duly informed of their status and thus should not be under any illusion to the contrary.

My concern is for anyone that has signed on AND DOESN'T read the forum. Its a matter of informed consent. If people have been made fully aware of their status and still choose to work without proper permission, that's their perogative....those that haven't been made fully aware, should be and need to be.

Would the Thaivisa members who have applied be willing to make this information available to their fellow volunteers who don't read the board?

In the absence of any positive responses, can we broaden the base and ask would any Thaivisa members who are members of the Chiang Mai Friends Group (sponsoring this project as per OP) to ensure that all the volunteers, who may not be TV members and thus have seen this thread, have been made fully aware of the news that has just now developed in this thread so that may make an informed decision on whether or not to continue participating?

Problem is, sriracha john, the members of CM Friends who are also ThaiVisa members (a few are sponsors, too) are not commenting or taking responsibility.

You don't need to be a member of ThaiVisa to read the posts, either. I think it's a safe bet all the Friends are by now well aware there has been some questioning of their program.

The only answer has been "ask Khun Boong". I think it's quite a shame she has been put in this position. She may not be comfortable communicating via internet, but plenty of other Friends are.

First, yes, I realize and agree that anyone can read Thaivisa without being a member, but to be pro-active, I would think that the Friends portion of the Chiang Mai Friends Group would want to ensure that ALL the volunteers definitively know what the recently revealed aspects of the project involve. A friend who someone who looks out for someone else.... this is kinda akin to not saying anything to someone who is stepping onto the roadway and apparently doesn't see the double-decker bus bearing down on them.

I'm presuming that not all the volunteers are members of this Group as well. True?

Edited June 14, 2008 by sriracha john

[sylviex]

Agree with you totally, sriracha john.

The Friends are choosing not to respond and deflecting all of the burden to Khun Boong. (Of course, that's also a good tactic for an assortment of reasons. But still, it is she who is bearing the "blame").

With Friends like that, who needs enemies ?

[sylviex]

I'm presuming that not all the volunteers are members of this Group as well. True?

I would think *none* of the volunteers are members of the Friends group.

The Friends are not silly enough to work illegally.

Edited June 14, 2008 by sylviex

[Tyke]

Saw an article in Tuesday's Chaing Mai Mail that might be of interest since I know the topic of volunteering comes up from time to time. This is a cross-cultural education project sponsored by the Chiang Mai Friends' group and supported by Chiang Mai municipality. Volunteers will spend a minimum of two hours a week with students 11-12 years old, assisting them with English conversation. Volunteers need either an ESL qualification or be recommended by the board of the Chiang Mai Friends' group.

Here's the good thing...special permission is being given by the Chiang Mai Municipality to enable volunteer teachers to work without the usual requirements of a work permit.

Contact person is Khun Boong

Hi,

I just wonder why anyone should volunteer to work for free for the Thai government, with people who are not necessarily 'needy' (I assume here that the kids to be taught are not in the 'needy' category except for the desire for free English lessons). Why aren't the ministry or parents involved willing to pay for the lessons?

[Jefferson]

Let's see if Sriracha John can make it to FOUR replies in succession to himself. Obviously, nobody else cares.

Fly to Chiang Mai, file a complaint with immigration police and see what happens. Please, anything but sustained forum-torture.

[sriracha john]

nobody cares.

Is that the Friend's Group slogan or just your personal philosophy?

Edited June 14, 2008 by sriracha john

[sylviex]

nobody cares.

Is that the Friend's Group slogan or just your personal philosophy?

Spot on !

Tyke : just wonder why anyone should volunteer to work for free for the Thai government, with people who are not necessarily 'needy' (I assume here that the kids to be taught are not in the 'needy' category except for the desire for free English lessons). Why aren't the ministry or parents involved willing to pay for the lessons?

I am not sure about the kids; we don't have much info on the schools involved.

The Municipal Officers, though, can surely not be classed as "needy". According to another poster, classes had previously been provided to them for a fee, presumably by professional teachers.

[richard10365]

Good work PB.

Where's Richard to tell people they don't know what they're talking about. The problem with most farangs is that we (un)fortunately think toooooo much.

Richard is thinking perhaps it is I who doesn't know what he is talking about.

I am also thinking unless Boong produces some hard evidence to support her claims of "taking care of things" then she might lose me as a supporter as well. I'm feeling a bit disappointed as well.

Life goes on.

[sylviex]

Sorry to hear you feel disappointed, Richard. You seem a sincere person.

This thread has made me think more about how we can best direct our desire to help others. I would say the example of Eek (Feed the Kitties thread) is a good one. She saw a need, and quietly went about helping the cats. Once she mentioned it here, others were glad to support her, but in many cases the help of just one person can make a difference.

I guess that's what "Charity begins at home" means.

I am slightly suspicious of organised "charity" at the best of times, but the Friends initiative looks mak mak Dodgy Brothers. (Australian slang.)

Did you see the posts from the person who arranged his own Work Permit to work as a teacher ? You might contact him for advice.

Good luck; thanks for your honesty and please report back .

[Loaded]

Good work PB.

Where's Richard to tell people they don't know what they're talking about. The problem with most farangs is that we (un)fortunately think toooooo much.

Richard is thinking perhaps it is I who doesn't know what he is talking about.

I am also thinking unless Boong produces some hard evidence to support her claims of "taking care of things" then she might lose me as a supporter as well. I'm feeling a bit disappointed as well.

Life goes on.

A mature response Richard to my slightly immature provocation.

[colonelsing]

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality noone is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permoits,visas,etc.

[PeaceBlondie]

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality no one is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permits,visas,etc.

Colonel Sing, what is common sense, Thai style? Are you Thai, have you been here 40 years, are you fluent? Thai common sense is markedly different from farang common sense. The law of Thailand forbids foreigners to do volunteer work without WP. Period, end of discussion. Common sense tells us that the country does not really, actually, truly, legally, want any help at all from foreigners. So let's not give up our concept of common sense. Regrettably, I suggest that we not volunteer until the Thais persuade the Thai national government to change Thai law. When perfectly good, nam jai people like the mayor and Khun Boong ask for our help, just say no. Say you are sorry, but farang common sense requires you to obey Thai law no matter how nonsensical it seems, no matter how much merit it brings us.

I take part in several Mexican forums, where non-Mexican aliens freely contribute their good hearts to charitable WORK without having to get a work permit. The idea that the nation would forbid aliens to do charitable work is unthinkable. But you see, what makes sense in Mexico, US, UK, etc., makes no sense at all to the Thais. It does not compute in their sensical thoughts.

[Mario2008]

Remember what happend after the tsunami. Volunteers were welcom, with a WP! That change to the assurence they wouldn't be checked and months later the announcement came that all volnteers should have a WP or would be prosecuted.

[Steve2UK]

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality noone is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permoits,visas,etc.

I'm not "emotionally involved" as you put it - unless you count my not wanting to see well-intentioned people making an unwitting mistake and thereby running foul of Thai law. I call it common decency to draw their attention to the facts and, come to that, common sense to do so. After they are aware of the facts........ entirely up to them what they do.

[sriracha john]

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality noone is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permoits,visas,etc.

Did you have some new development to contribute to the volunteer tourist police thread to support your premise?

There has been enough speculation on the status of the Tourist Police Volunteers on this thread.

I am closing this topic now, as further speculation is purely that... speculation.

Should a member of the TPV wish to have their opinions on the subject aired, or wish to either refute or substantiate any of the speculation on this topic, please send a PM to an online moderator who can re-open the thread for your contribution.

Until then, this thread will remain closed.

/Closed.

If so, I would urge you to contact the mods and have the thread re-opened. Otherwise, there's nothing to back that up.