I Am A Little Confused

[Radius]

I understand: Pohm Khao Chai

I do not understand: (Pohm) Mai Khao Chai

Do you understand?: Khao Chai Mai

My confusion is in the word 'Mai'

No = Mai

You = Pohm

So if I would say 'Do you understand?' I would make it: 'Pohm Khao Chai?'

Where do I go wrong?

[Zeid]

just for the sake this is a true post and not......

phom = I for the male

kun = you

mai or mei has many meaning there is actually a sentence that goes mei mei mei mei mei?

now when said correctly it goes loke new wood burns goos ? or something like that depending on the use of tone.

and if you want so say do you understand you would say kao jay mei?krap/ka or just kao jai mei

in the Arabic language the use of tones is in a different way where it expresses the intention, question, remark answer.

so asking a question or answering it will be said exactly the same but in a different manner, when i started to learn thai that was a problem for me where i would drop the mei? in the end and get everything wrong. at the same time when it come to say different words such as mother and dog i will also get the tones mixed up. triggering laughter in the room.

helpful? not sure

[Artamus]

I understand: Pohm Khao Chai

I do not understand: (Pohm) Mai Khao Chai

Do you understand?: Khao Chai Mai

My confusion is in the word 'Mai'

No = Mai

You = Pohm

So if I would say 'Do you understand?' I would make it: 'Pohm Khao Chai?'

Where do I go wrong?

The word Mai as used above is spelt "Mai" in Englsih, but is a transliteration of different Thai words (splet differently in Thai), but they differ in tone.

Thus Mai (falling time) means no, but Mai (rising tone) means something like "right?" or "correct?". So Khao Chai Mai means "understand right?" (the kun is implied).

Hope the above is correct, as I'm a beginner at this as well.

[rgs2001uk]

I understand: Pohm Khao Chai

I do not understand: (Pohm) Mai Khao Chai

Do you understand?: Khao Chai Mai

My confusion is in the word 'Mai'

No = Mai

You = Pohm

So if I would say 'Do you understand?' I would make it: 'Pohm Khao Chai?'

Where do I go wrong?

hope this helps,

as we all know thai is a tonal language, using the word mai as an example

mid mile

low new

falling no

high right

rising silk

thai has no direct yes or no, we simply repeat the main verb or adjective used in the question, eg

do you understand? kao jai mai?

understand kao jai

do not understand mai kao jai

be careful not to use chai for yes and mai, or mai chai for no all the time, use them mainly when the question ends in chai mai.

btw radius, you is khun, pohm is me or i for a male speaker, as oppossed to dichan or chan for a female.

hope this helps, i like you am a mere student of the language.

[Radius]

Ah, thank you all, this explains a lot.

And the switching of Khun and Pohm are indeed my mistake.

In principle Thai does not seem so difficult but when they start to use similar words in different tonage then I am in trouble, lol.

Evenso, I enjoy learning the language. It is something totally different then I am used to.

I did not expect they did not use the word 'you' in the question. That is where I went wrong.

It does make me wonder though if "Khun Khao Chai?" is actually correct? I am sure a Thai would understand, but is it correct?

Edited June 5, 2008 by Radius

[riga]

This thread seems a bit confused/confusing.

rgs2001uk posted:

hope this helps,

as we all know thai is a tonal language, using the word mai as an example

mid mile

low new

falling no

high right

rising silk

ไหม้..>..mai(F)...>...to burn

ไหม..>..mai®....>...1 particle added at the end of a statement to indicate a question

................o....>...2 silk

ไม่...>..mai(F)...>...No (the transcription is the same ไหม้, but the sound is not exactly the same. It's a

..........................limit of the trabscription system, I guess)

มั้ย...>..mai(H)...>...This is an informal way to spell ไหม (used in spoken language and in blog, chat, mails...)

ใหม่..>..mai(L)...>...New

ไมล์..>..mai[l](M)>... Is the thai transcription of the english loanword mile (not the "l" that is mute)

ไมค์..>..mai[k](M)>..Is the thai transcription of the english loanword mike (microphone) or the proper

...........................name Mike (note that here there's a mute k)

There are other words with a similar sound, for example:

ไม้ > maai(H) > wood

but as you can note from the transcription they sound different from the one above not only for the tone but for the lenght of the vowel A

I think this can give an idea of how sometimes transcriptions can be tricky and confusing.

Edited June 5, 2008 by riga

[Richard W]

It does make me wonder though if "Khun Khao Chai?" is actually correct? I am sure a Thai would understand, but is it correct?

Perhaps if his English (or Arabic) were good enough. Intonation without the extra word does not work in Thai.

[M]khun [F]khaao [M]jai [H]mai is the normal pronunciation of the correct sequence of words. (While [M]jai does not have a voiced consonant, it does not have an aspirated consonant either.)

Richard.

[riga]

Hi Richard. I notice that you used the colloquial form มั้ย [mai(H)].

Do you think that ไหม [mai®] it is practically only used in formal text but the high tone "version" is the correct one to use in all other circumstances?

[rgs2001uk]

Hi Richard. I notice that you used the colloquial form มั้ย [mai(H)].

Do you think that ไหม [mai®] it is practically only used in formal text but the high tone "version" is the correct one to use in all other circumstances?

riga,

the way i understand it is as follows, the tone pronounciation of some words has evolved and they are now pronounced differntly from they way they are written in thai script. this causes problems for someone not familiar with the word, because if we followed the normal thai tone rules we would pronounce the word they way it is written and not by the way it is normally spoken eg,

ไหม [mai®] the question particle is usually pronounced มั้ย [mai(H)].

there are other examples of thai script with irregular vowel lenght, naam (water) but sam (to repeat), its the same vowel.

i am sure there plenty more of these exceptions, but its a bit to early in the morning for me to remember them off the top of my head.

btw i thought your previous reply was spot on, i dont type much thai script, my eyesight isnt what it used to be, its only by the context words are used i can recognise tone marks, gaarands etc.

i still dont know what the original op was trying to say, to me , khun khao jai, is a statement not a question. again it all goes back to context of the conversation taking place coupled with the way certain words are ommitted from the conversation, eg, set (laew ruu) yang?

i also have thais ask me khao jai? after explaining something to me, just some of the many problems we non native thai speakers encounter, but thankfully with the help and guidance of fellow posters who are more knowledgeable we can all learn something useful.

[tutone]

I understand: Pohm Khao Chai

I do not understand: (Pohm) Mai Khao Chai

Do you understand?: Khao Chai Mai

My confusion is in the word 'Mai'

No = Mai

You = Pohm

So if I would say 'Do you understand?' I would make it: 'Pohm Khao Chai?'

Where do I go wrong?

[tutone]

I understand: Pohm Khao Chai

I do not understand: (Pohm) Mai Khao Chai

Do you understand?: Khao Chai Mai

My confusion is in the word 'Mai'

No = Mai

You = Pohm

So if I would say 'Do you understand?' I would make it: 'Pohm Khao Chai?'

Where do I go wrong?

Generally mai is added at the end of a sentence to make it a question that requires a "yes" or "no" response. So you would say "Kun kow chai mai" or politely "Kun kow chai mai, krap" to ask "Do you understand?" or literally "You understand, no?"

[Tod Daniels]

The language spoken in the glorious "Land 'O Thais" is a tonal language like many in S/E Asia.

In english rising the tone of the last word usually denotes a question. Thais do not have the luxury of changing a word's pronunciation like we do in english to ask a question. If they did this in thai it would change the entire word's meaning and you would go 'off script' quickly.

They developed a "verbal question mark" if you will and use ไหม (one of the many 'mai' words) at the end of sentences that are of interrogatory construct (that ask questions).

An example of both the 'mai' words you mentioned would be asking someone if they do not understand or do understand; ไม่เข้าใจหรือเข้าใจไหม (mai-khao-jai-rue-khao-jai-mai). This sentence uses mai words at the beginning and end of the sentence, the first word denotes 'not', and the last word is the "verbal question mark". NOTE: I have never heard a thai say this, but I have found it helpful in forcing thais to pick from one of the choices. They are for the most part compelled by the question to give a direct answer; thus cutting thru all the ambiguity and hypothetical answers they might give were you to couch the question more politely.

I have also seen thais ask if something is okay; โอเคไหม (okay-mai) again using the 'mai' word at the end to denote they are asking a question. In english we would just rise the tone of okay at the end and it would denote a question.

"Tutone" I believe you are incorrect: "Kun kow chai mai, krap" to ask "Do you understand?" or literally "You understand, no?" In that sentence the mai at the end is most definitely NOT the word no, but it is the thai "verbal question mark". It has no connotation to yes or no instead it is only indicating the sentence is in the form of a question.

[Radius]

Thank you all for your response. A further study into the Thai language has helped to understand the concept of the 'question particle'.

Very interesting language,

The tonal part is the hard part, the rest is fairly doable because I think the language itself is actually more simple then English for example.

The problem comes when (as with every language) native speakers leave out stuff because it is more easy (for them).

Different words with the same meaning and words that are the same but at a different tone meaning something else are the biggest challenge for me.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Radius

[meadish_sweetball]

The tones are phonemic features - they determine meaning.

It's a common misconception to think of two syllables that have different tones, as 'the same word but with different tones'.

One wouldn't say 'car' and 'bar' are the same word, only the initial sound is different. In the same way, mai[L] ใหม่, mai[F] ไม่ and mai[R] ไหม are equally different words.

If you look closely, this is reflected in Thai spelling, but requires using and understanding a decent transcription system when employing Roman characters.

[Radius]

I agree that they are different words.

But how else do I explain saying the same letters at a different tone?

Because even that is not correct. They aren't the same letters in Thai.

I am experiencing a lot of difficulty with this tonal stuff btw. I hardly hear it sometimes and speaking it seems to be even more difficult.

I found this test:

http://www.thai-language.com/id/798459

Tell me if the test is doable and correct please.

Because half of the time I just don't hear the tone.

I am hoping this comes with practise.

[meadish_sweetball]

That test looks very helpful, both for listening practice and for practicing the application of the tone rules.

[5tash]

Unfortunately it's not very helpful if you can read Thai. You know what the tone's going to be before you even here it!

[DavidHouston]

There's an old joke in the U.S. - A musician goes up to a policeman on New York's 59th Street and asks, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?" The policeman answers, "Practice, practice, practice."

The same is true with learning Thai. My suggestion? Get yourself a teacher, preferably someone you are close to. Buy a Thai children's alphabet and beginning reader. Have your teacher read each of the syllables in the book to you and you repeat them exactly as she says them. Don't try to add any intonation and don't try to make the words sound like English words. Have no preconceived notions of what the syllables and words should sound like, or, in fact, what a word is. Ask you teacher not to be satisfied with your pronunciation until you get the words exactly right. By the way, some Thai consonant and vowel sounds are very difficult for us English speakers to hear and reproduce but stick with it; you will get it. Your tongue may hurt for a while but it's like exercise - the more your practice, the better you will be.

After a short time, if you rigorously follow this practice regime, you should be able to learn the tone system. You can then learn to read what you are saying, syllable by syllable. I suggest that you do not learn any rules unless and until you can hear and pronounce the words correctly. Each Thai dialect has different tones and sounds; make sure that your teacher is teaching you standard Central Thai.

Get past these initial hurdles and you will be well on your way.

[Radius]

Wel, I can't read Thai so the test is pretty good for me. I am getting better at it btw.

Getting a teacher will be difficult at this time because I am not in Thailand at the moment.

But the website posted above has been very helpfull and I am sure I'll be able to get some basic skills from it.

After that the only thing that will make my Thai better will simply be to speak it often I guess.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Radius

[meadish_sweetball]

Unfortunately it's not very helpful if you can read Thai. You know what the tone's going to be before you even here it!

Good point - you're right it is possible to acquire the tone rules without being able to distinguish or produce the tones properly, I didn't think of that, as in my case I learned to hear the tones before mastering the tone rules.

So if the app in the website had the option to hide the Thai spelling, it would become even more useful.

[Richard W]

The tones are phonemic features - they determine meaning.

It's a common misconception to think of two syllables that have different tones, as 'the same word but with different tones'.

One wouldn't say 'car' and 'bar' are the same word, only the initial sound is different. In the same way, mai[L] ใหม่, mai[F] ไม่ and mai[R] ไหม are equally different words.

If you look closely, this is reflected in Thai spelling, but requires using and understanding a decent transcription system when employing Roman characters.

Sentence final particles seem to be an exception. There seem to be a lot of related particles differing only in tone, though I don't claim the morphology is easy to grasp.

[mangkorn]

Sentence final particles seem to be an exception. There seem to be a lot of related particles differing only in tone, though I don't claim the morphology is easy to grasp.

Amen! to that, Richard. Not easy at all...