Ex-premier Concerned With Deep Divisions Among Thais

[Plus]

Actually the compromise was reached when PPP was allowed to form a government. There was basically one condition - drop Thaksin's agenda. TRT supporters had their party in power and PAD supporters saw Thaksin out of the picture and everything was quiet.

Now Thaksin is going for broke - complete absolution of all charges and reinstatment as Thailand's Dear Leader.

What kind of concessions are his supporters going to make to even start talking about compromise?

PAD has a lot of ground to cede if - it can be easily persuaded to drop "Samak Auk Pai" agenda and stop their rallies, but what are they going to get in return? Nothing? They'd be satisfied if Thaksin was taken to court, at least for a moment. Is it too much to ask? I don't see anyone who thinks of anything less - not Anand, not Democrats, not Banharn, not "White people". It's a bare minimum.

But, as I said, Thaksin is going for broke, nothing can stop them. They'll come to Bangkok, they'll kill people, they'll spill blood, the country will be in shock, they disappear in countryside and they'll never see Thaksin again, but this is the sacrifice they are willing to make - they want blood, they want a feeling of supremacy over Bangkokian PAD upstarts, feeling of raw power, they'll walk away undefeated and they'll tell these stories to their children.

1976 all over again.

[ozzydom]

Make of it what you will, the son in law rang this morning to tell T/W that he is going with a group of 60 odd locals from their Bangkok building site to work in Yala.

The wife told him Yala is dangerous to which he replied that they are going because big trouble is coming to Bangkok.

[WISteve]

Make of it what you will, the son in law rang this morning to tell T/W that he is going with a group of 60 odd locals from their Bangkok building site to work in Yala.

The wife told him Yala is dangerous to which he replied that they are going because big trouble is coming to Bangkok.

I sincerely hope not for many reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was right.

It seems the two sides are becoming more entrenched as the days go by. Neither side have clean hands IMHO but they should have the right to express their views peacefully. It is always the poor, the vulnerable who suffer the most when things like this go pear shaped. Food and energy prices are making things more difficult in many countries, not just Thailand.

I think it would be good for the country if the court cases went forward and Taksin had his day to defend himself as fairly as possible. But it seems that neither side will be happy with the results or stop there, whatever the outcome happens to be.

~WISteve

[Old Man River]

Buying votes? What a bunch of BS! The voting booth is private and people vote the way they want. Even the up country locals are amused that a politician would attempt to buy their vote. They simply can't believe that politicians could be stupid enough to TRY to buy votes. Vote buying is a crutch for people who can't accept the fact that their candidate or party didn't get elected.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Vote buying is endemic in Thailand. It happened in the last election, the one before that etc. The question is whether vote buying made a difference in the last election. Personally, I don't think it did. I expect if there was an election tomorrow, the majority of Thai's upcountry would once again vote for Thaksin or anything that remotely looks like Thaksin (whether paid or not) and if that meant that they would get Samak again, they would still vote that way. However, this position among many in the cities is untenable, hence, the title of this thread.

[A_Traveller]

^ Let us also add that the very few independent monitors not only had serious concerns about vote buying {by all parties} but even more important the lack of correct procedures to ensure secrecy of an individual's ballot, e.g. polling booths open to external view.

Regards

[Old Man River]

^ Let us also add that the very few independent monitors not only had serious concerns about vote buying {by all parties} but even more important the lack of correct procedures to ensure secrecy of an individual's ballot, e.g. polling booths open to external view.

Regards

I will add to that (not that anything needs to be added concerning the existence of vote buying) countrywide the count was made at the poll sites. Hence, if by some reason everyone didn't already know how people voted, they knew how many voted contra to what they had been paid to do. Pressure was then put on to find out who these people were.

[Crushdepth]

There's a lot more to democracy than voting. It's partly a cultural issue and Thailand just doesn't have a culture of democracy.

[thaigene2]

Over 100 farm trucks from Northeast protest in Bangkok

BANGKOK: -- Over 100 farm trucks from northeastern province drove through Bangkok roads to join protesting farmers at the head office of the Bank of Thailand Tuesday, worsening traffic congestion in the capital.

They drove on the Vibhavadi Rangsit Road at noon, passing the Victory Monument heading to the central bank's head office at the Rama VIII Bridge.

-- The Nation 2008-06-10

Ya...gee that really sucks, huh? What would happen if they stopped outside the airforce or army HQ? And started shouting through bullhorns at those guys? I shudder to think. But of course, it's ok for the well-healed kids to have a party on Rajadamnern Nok isn't it?

[h90]

Buying votes? What a bunch of BS! The voting booth is private and people vote the way they want. Even the up country locals are amused that a politician would attempt to buy their vote. They simply can't believe that politicians could be stupid enough to TRY to buy votes. Vote buying is a crutch for people who can't accept the fact that their candidate or party didn't get elected.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Vote buying is endemic in Thailand. It happened in the last election, the one before that etc. The question is whether vote buying made a difference in the last election. Personally, I don't think it did. I expect if there was an election tomorrow, the majority of Thai's upcountry would once again vote for Thaksin or anything that remotely looks like Thaksin (whether paid or not) and if that meant that they would get Samak again, they would still vote that way. However, this position among many in the cities is untenable, hence, the title of this thread.

Yes vote buying is endemic in Thailand, but that is still not a reason to accept it. I am not sure if there would be an election without vote buying, if there wouldn't be 30 % in the north+north east who just wouldn't go to the election and that might be enough for a different government. There wasn't so much difference between the PPP and the democrats.

But I don't understand the junta. Fill up the country with observer, ask every country for observer. Allow partys to check the election, put all on southern army to check in the NE, and dissolve PPP 2 weeks before the election, there are 100 reasons to do that (nominee, paying money to headmen) and last but not least make a real constitution.

What is that red and yellow card?? Half a fraud is yellow? And 5 years banned. I would say 5 years in jail and banned for life would be better.

[Old Man River]

Buying votes? What a bunch of BS! The voting booth is private and people vote the way they want. Even the up country locals are amused that a politician would attempt to buy their vote. They simply can't believe that politicians could be stupid enough to TRY to buy votes. Vote buying is a crutch for people who can't accept the fact that their candidate or party didn't get elected.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Vote buying is endemic in Thailand. It happened in the last election, the one before that etc. The question is whether vote buying made a difference in the last election. Personally, I don't think it did. I expect if there was an election tomorrow, the majority of Thai's upcountry would once again vote for Thaksin or anything that remotely looks like Thaksin (whether paid or not) and if that meant that they would get Samak again, they would still vote that way. However, this position among many in the cities is untenable, hence, the title of this thread.

Yes vote buying is endemic in Thailand, but that is still not a reason to accept it. I am not sure if there would be an election without vote buying, if there wouldn't be 30 % in the north+north east who just wouldn't go to the election and that might be enough for a different government. There wasn't so much difference between the PPP and the democrats.

What difference vote buying made in the last election, if any, will never be known. I base my view that it made no difference on the fact that the north and northeast were strong supporters of the TRT, and the reasons given for the coup were corruption and lese majeste. Even now, corruption has yet to be proven and charges on lese majeste were dropped. Hence, right or wrong, the people of the north and northeast have yet to see why they are not correct in supporting the TRT and now its nominees.

[younghusband]

Buying votes? What a bunch of BS! The voting booth is private and people vote the way they want. Even the up country locals are amused that a politician would attempt to buy their vote. They simply can't believe that politicians could be stupid enough to TRY to buy votes. Vote buying is a crutch for people who can't accept the fact that their candidate or party didn't get elected.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Vote buying is endemic in Thailand. It happened in the last election, the one before that etc. The question is whether vote buying made a difference in the last election. Personally, I don't think it did. I expect if there was an election tomorrow, the majority of Thai's upcountry would once again vote for Thaksin or anything that remotely looks like Thaksin (whether paid or not) and if that meant that they would get Samak again, they would still vote that way. However, this position among many in the cities is untenable, hence, the title of this thread.

Yes vote buying is endemic in Thailand, but that is still not a reason to accept it. I am not sure if there would be an election without vote buying, if there wouldn't be 30 % in the north+north east who just wouldn't go to the election and that might be enough for a different government. There wasn't so much difference between the PPP and the democrats.

But I don't understand the junta. Fill up the country with observer, ask every country for observer. Allow partys to check the election, put all on southern army to check in the NE, and dissolve PPP 2 weeks before the election, there are 100 reasons to do that (nominee, paying money to headmen) and last but not least make a real constitution.

What is that red and yellow card?? Half a fraud is yellow? And 5 years banned. I would say 5 years in jail and banned for life would be better.

Interesting lessons on the democratic process.I particularly like the suggestion the army should be withdrawn from the South to "check" on the NE.The Zimbabwean approach of dissolving parties just before an election is also a corker.

[thaigene2]

The problem seems to be largely that the entire political system has been subverted by one man and his money. The PAD is making a lot of demands to justify staying in position but their only real issue is that the constitution and the AEC should be left alone long enough for Thaksin to stand trial on the serious corruption charges that are levelled against him. They hope that at least one of these cases will go badly enough for him that he flees the country and has to stay away for 10-20 years - anyway long enough for him to be no longer a political force. Then the process of national reconciliation could begin. Dissolution of government parties is probably a side issue that they may be indifferent about. The politicians would re-emerge in different parties anyway like PPP. Toppling the Samak government is probably not a real goal either, since he/ it were never intended to last long by their sponsor anyway.

If Thaksin gets what he wants and gets rid of all charges against him, he will be back again as PM within a few months and will ensure that he can never lose power again. Some may like his decisive style and his way of reaching out to the ordinary people and believe that this would be perfect for Thailand. Others may think that, in order to develop from this point Thailand needs to educate the ordinary people, not pander to their superficial wants, eliminate corruption and implement rule of law for the first time in its history. It's for you to decide.

Then why not just target the coalition allies? Without them the PPP's house of cards tumbles, right? But they don't want that Arkady - they want another coup. They should STOP targeting democracy - they lost, that's it. Now they (PAD) should 'get out'

[Bagwan]

What difference vote buying made in the last election, if any, will never be known. I base my view that it made no difference on the fact that the north and northeast were strong supporters of the TRT, and the reasons given for the coup were corruption and lese majeste. Even now, corruption has yet to be proven and charges on lese majeste were dropped. Hence, right or wrong, the people of the north and northeast have yet to see why they are not correct in supporting the TRT and now its nominees.

The factions of my Thai family in Buriram and Petchabun have both, without prompting, confided that they know Taksin and his cronies were corrupt. Their view was that they would vote for whoever offered them the most money. Predictably, only those representing one political party did. Their rationale seemed to be that whoever was elected would be a rip off merchant so it made little difference to them who won. They did not want to fall out with the Kamnam or village Headman either.

I have help them understand that they have been bribed with their own money. Governments do not have money, it belongs to the People. i.e. those from whom it has been collected. A very large portion of this money ends up in the pockets of 'influential people' and some of that is used to bribe the electorate. It is because of the corrupt pooyais that they don't have decent roads and railway system, decent hospitals and health care, an effective education system, etc etc. Their choices at election times should be whether they want one or two hundred baht or a new school, a hard surfaced road and all the other benefits that I enjoyed in my home country. Until this message is brought to the simple country folk, and acted upon, I see no great prospect of peace and prosperity for all. I feel that I have gone some way in getting them to see that their actions are very short sighted and merely contribute to their assured continued indigence.

What was particularly revealing to them was my response to the notion that Thaksin had the peoples welfare at heart and the he distributed significant sums of his own money. If the 73 billion baht he realised from the tax free sale of Shin Corp were to be invested then a return of 10% p.a. could be easily attained. This would give an annual income of 7.3 billion baht, or 20 million every day. Did they think that a thousand here and there to the needy, always in front of the cameras, would affect him in any way? Their minds couldn't grapple with the sums involved but they fully understood the tenor of my message.

Such sentiments go some way to understanding Thaksin's distaste for farangs. He views us as 'the fifth column', importing new ideas and fresh concepts, countering the naivete of the urban electorate. What happens in Thailand will affect us all and I feel that we all, in our own way, should join in such indirect action as outlined above. I view it as a helping hand on the road to democracy, whatever path they choose is, of course, up to them. Direct action is naturally a big no no.

[jfchandler]

Buying votes? What a bunch of BS! The voting booth is private and people vote the way they want. Even the up country locals are amused that a politician would attempt to buy their vote. They simply can't believe that politicians could be stupid enough to TRY to buy votes. Vote buying is a crutch for people who can't accept the fact that their candidate or party didn't get elected.]

The factions of my Thai family in Buriram and Petchabun have both, without prompting, confided that they know Taksin and his cronies were corrupt. Their view was that they would vote for whoever offered them the most money.

Based on personal experience, I would tend to believe the second view above is the accurate one, in far to many cases.... Did vote buying make a difference in the past election? Of course it did!!!!! Enough to give the Democrats an outright win... probably not... Enough to have materially changed the election outcome in terms of the votes/seats that ended up going to different parties... Certainly so.

It took the PPP some weeks and much wrangling to finally come up with a coalition government of five parties.... So, it seems clear the resulting government and its policies could have been materially different even if there had been a modest weakening of their "electoral mandate" because, for a change, more people were voting with their hearts rather than because someone greased their palms....

[Tony Clifton]

With vote buying the problem doesn't lie with the voters but with the party who spends the biggest amount, you end up with a party filled with criminals, incompetents and cronies who think afterwards they have every right to be in parliament and do whatever they like once elected.

This topic should be titled Ex-premier Concerned With cause of Deep Divisions Among Thais

[Plus]

Vote buying has become an integral part of election process, if PPP wasn't doing it, no one would believe they represent TRT and Thaksin.

[kmart]

Provincial vote-buying has been an integral part of any election that has ever been staged here. The middle class Bangkok-centric Thai media try to ignore this fact, but "democracy" in LoS is about being cynical and buying the votes, lives and futures of the great mass of upcountry population.

[BigSnake]

Yes, the Political and economic crisis is gripping the country, It might just be SHOW TIME for Gen Anupong. We will just have to wait and see, enough said.

[Bagwan]

A Thai friend tells me to discount any notion of Samak calling an election to put an end to PAD demonstrations any time soon. Is that because Samak would probably be given the boot, I asked. Partly was the reply, and because the PPP crowd don't have any money left after the last election and haven't had the opportunity to refill their coffers.

Makes sense to me.

[pop3]

Onward to glory... All for one and each man for himself.

[tamsin]

I think the situation is very simple.

Do you want Taksin back in full power or not.

I can not think that a reasonable man would like to have Taksin back so he can fill his and his friend’s pockets even more and make to poor people in Thailand even poorer.

Yes he started a lot of projects for the poor but almost none of then worked for a long time and died a silent dead.

Good for PR but poor for the country.

For the first time my wife is getting involved in politics as she always said that whichever man is in power they will steal from the country for their own benefit.

But now even she says enough is enough and went to Phuket and Bangkok to support the rally’s. ( good for her )

Exactly. And what was the first thing on the agenda as soon as he stepped off the plane? Legalize gambling in Thailand. So he could set up some nice profitable casinos, after the uk told him they didn't want him to set one up there. That tells you everything you need to know about him and his proxy. Stuff the lot of you I want more money.