Govt Faces No-confidence

[sriracha john]

During one of his more lucid moments...

========================================================================

Embattled Thai PM survives vote

The Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has survived a vote of no confidence in parliament. A motion introduced by the opposition Democrats was defeated by 280 votes out of 470. The result was expected, as the governing coalition holds a two-thirds parliamentary majority.

But the government's performance was harshly criticised by deputies in a debate lasting several days, and some ministers now risk losing their jobs. The result of this vote was hardly surprising, as the government’s coalition partners were unlikely to abandon it just four months into the new administration.

But the week-long proceedings leading up to this vote were publicly broadcast.

The party which did so well in last December’s elections is now looking battle-scarred and weary after a very public dressing-down in parliament by the main opposition. Samak defended himself with characteristic bravado - but he may yet have to sack some of his ministers, and his own political future is unclear.

He is vulnerable because his cabinet - many of them cronies and relatives of more powerful politicians who were banned from office - has performed poorly.

It has failed to address the challenges of rising food and fuel prices which are hitting all countries in the region.

And it underestimated the nationalist backlash when it agreed to support Cambodia’s bid to have a disputed temple on their border listed as a UN World Heritage Site.

Samak is also under constant pressure from the influential aristocratic elite here - they believe he is acting as a nominee for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, a still-powerful figure who lingers in the wings of Thailand’s political stage.

- BBC

[Meerkat]

Not at all. Facts can be twisted this way and that and argued until cows come home, especially in Thai or broader South Asian context. It's a show of will and strength and face and what not and facts are routinely ignored.

I have a PM in my inbox that argues the facts in the opposite way with buch of links and references, I'm not posting them only because facts don't really matter here.

Well whilst you quite fairly don't want to post your PM here, would you have the grace to forward them to me personally please? Whilst you believe facts mean nothing here, getting to the root of the issue is of interest to me, and if I have got any interpretations wrong it's important for me to correct them.

At that time it was "next year", as in "we promise.. really" - a perfect excuse for a delay, and they could have stalled it even further without any problem - just refuse to agree on a map or something else. It was Cambodia's rush, not Thailand's.

Had you followed the UNESCO link from last year I just provided, you'd see:

“The State Party of Cambodia and the State Party of Thailand are in full agreement

that the Sacred Site of the Temple of Preah Vihear has Outstanding Universal Value

and must be inscribed on the World Heritage List as soon as possible. Accordingly,

Cambodia and Thailand agree that Cambodia will propose the site for formal

inscription on the World Heritage List at the 32nd session of the World Heritage

Committee in 2008 with the active support of Thailand."

The 32nd session being next week, and the State Party of Thailand being the Junta. Not much room for manoeuvre there. Ah, but no doubt it was all just a ruse by the Junta to play for time I suppose, and the (same) negotiating team (which includes representatives of the Royal Thai Army, NSC, and Royal Thai Survey - at least two groups of which could hardly be said to be in the pockets of the PPP) were suddenly steamrolled over by their new boss. And all without leaking anything to the outside world to show their disgust at the PPP selling out.

Yes, sure - they just sent Cambodians to do some more homework to win time. There are millions of territorial disputes around the world, they usual MO is to stall and not budge an inch, no matter what.

There is no territorial dispute regarding the Temple's nomination according to the Junta, the NSC and the Royal Thai Survey. And the PPP of course. Regarding winning time, see above.

This is a perfect example of how one can defend his position even if all the facts are going against you. Something Thailand should have done with Phra Viharn. They don't need to be objective, it's not their goal. Their goal is to make Cambodian court victory as painful for them as possible, and keep Thailand in a pole barganing position.

You're not defending any position, just arguing for the sake of it. Something (thankfully) neither the Junta nor the PPP (nor indeed Cambodia's CPP) appeared to be prepared to do in spite of your belief that that's all diplomacy is. I just hope it's not too late to prevent a repeat of 2003 or even worse.

[Plus]

What's the value of that line from last year's Unesco paper? It's not obligatory. What else did you expect there - "in spite of active resistance" instead of "active support"?

The fact that Noppadon had to abruptly remove Thai chief negotiator cancels all his claims that he was simply following previous agreement.

You're not defending any position, just arguing for the sake of it

That's how I can stall and talk and talk and talk without conceeding any ground.

Thailand has its own interests to protect, not accomodate Cambodians by any means necessary like Noppadon did.

He might have thought he was very efficient, others think he lacked finesse and deep understanding and undermined Thailand's long standing position on the issue.

Re. PM - it was sent to me personally, I can't just forward it without sender's permission.

[Plus]

Now Thais have organised a Heritage Commitee to push for a joint Unesco listing. They are going to let Foreign Ministry to head the negotiations but I have no idea how it would fit with the already signed communique (which might be nullified by the court in a couple of days).

No matter how it plays out in the end, it shows that Noppadon's "deal" is against Thai interests, however reasonable or solid it sounds.

Democrat's point still stands - Noppadon argued as if he was Cambodian lawyer, not Thai Foreign Minister.

[Meerkat]

Now Thais have organised a Heritage Commitee to push for a joint Unesco listing. They are going to let Foreign Ministry to head the negotiations but I have no idea how it would fit with the already signed communique (which might be nullified by the court in a couple of days).

No matter how it plays out in the end, it shows that Noppadon's "deal" is against Thai interests, however reasonable or solid it sounds.

Democrat's point still stands - Noppadon argued as if he was Cambodian lawyer, not Thai Foreign Minister.

Where did you see that? I've got the Post reporting, "He [the chairman of the Thai WHC] added that the ministry had confirmed its position to the Thai world heritage committee yesterday, saying it supports Phnom Penh's bid to have the Preah Vihear temple registered on the World Heritage list as announced in the controversial joint communique.", and the Nation, "The Thai position expressed in the joint communique signed with Cambodia last week is still valid, he said." (Note: co-hosting Cambodia's bid for nomination is not the same as a joint nomination). These reports are in today's press; I haven't seen anything yet to imply a joint UNESCO listing from an official source.

Of course we've now got the injunction (although it looks like it will be appealed), so all bets are off anyway. If the Thais stall and Cambodia gets the nomination without Thai help (more difficult, but they've already got the support of more than two dozen countries I believe), then Thailand will IMO have lost a great deal more face than it perceives has been lost already. On top of that it will be an unwelcome diplomatic incident between the two, already edgy, states.

[younghusband]

Why am I reminded of Borges' comment on the Falklands War about two bald men fighting over a comb? It all seems such a Ruritanian piece of nonsense.

[Old Man River]

Now Thais have organised a Heritage Commitee to push for a joint Unesco listing. They are going to let Foreign Ministry to head the negotiations but I have no idea how it would fit with the already signed communique (which might be nullified by the court in a couple of days).

No matter how it plays out in the end, it shows that Noppadon's "deal" is against Thai interests, however reasonable or solid it sounds.

Democrat's point still stands - Noppadon argued as if he was Cambodian lawyer, not Thai Foreign Minister.

Where did you see that? I've got the Post reporting, "He [the chairman of the Thai WHC] added that the ministry had confirmed its position to the Thai world heritage committee yesterday, saying it supports Phnom Penh's bid to have the Preah Vihear temple registered on the World Heritage list as announced in the controversial joint communique.", and the Nation, "The Thai position expressed in the joint communique signed with Cambodia last week is still valid, he said." (Note: co-hosting Cambodia's bid for nomination is not the same as a joint nomination). These reports are in today's press; I haven't seen anything yet to imply a joint UNESCO listing from an official source.

Of course we've now got the injunction (although it looks like it will be appealed), so all bets are off anyway. If the Thais stall and Cambodia gets the nomination without Thai help (more difficult, but they've already got the support of more than two dozen countries I believe), then Thailand will IMO have lost a great deal more face than it perceives has been lost already. On top of that it will be an unwelcome diplomatic incident between the two, already edgy, states.

I have seen wars fought for less. I will never forget the soccer war of 1969. Forty years later in a different part of the world (different cultures) I am sure that won't happen here, but this is far from over. With nationalism, rational thinking goes out the window.

[plachon]

Why am I reminded of Borges' comment on the Falklands War about two bald men fighting over a comb? It all seems such a Ruritanian piece of nonsense.

Bald or not, that comb is now yielding up rich oil reserves, which suggest it was perhaps worth having a scrap over, irrespective of the wishes of the Falklanders themselves who all knew which country they would rather have to protect their interests or any moral considerations.

[Plus]

Where did you see that?

In the same Post article:

"The committee, chaired by newly-appointed chairman Pongpol Adireksarn, also agreed that the listing of the ancient Hindu temple should not cover only the temple, but also the area around the temple, which is on Thai soil."

This obvioulsy goes beyond Noppadon's "let Cambodians do what they want, we won't get in their way" deal. Thais want their own slice of pie - co-management of the site.

Again, the problem is not the deal itself, which is the size of a comb indeed, it's the Thai FM working for the other side. Actually for Thaksin's investment in Koh Kong but we can't prove that at the moment, can we? Still, does anyone here really believe two deals are unconnected? I don't think so.

The question is - what happens to Noppadon now? Nation and BP think he'll lose his position but parlament gave him a vote of confidence and there's not talk of reshuffle. I think it's possible that PPP will remove him on their own terms, not at Democrats request. It is also possible that he'd stay, if they think the can manage public backlash. A bit like Jakrapob's situation in his last days.

[sriracha john]

it's the Thai FM working for the other side. Actually for Thaksin's investment in Koh Kong but we can't prove that at the moment, can we? Still, does anyone here really believe two deals are unconnected? I don't think so.

Particularly in light of the new road that Thai taxpayers spent one Billion Baht on... that leads to the front door of

Thaksin's Golden Square-Head Casino and Resort... *available for bookings soon*

Noppadope was even the ribbon-cutter at the grand opening a month ago... oh, and look... even the brother-in-law was on hand...

He's STILL using the Thai taxpayer for his own personal financial gain.... :D

First.... build the road at taxpayer's expense...

Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama cuts a large ribbon to mark the opening of Road 48 in Koh Kong while Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, left, and Thailand Deputy Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat, right, look on. The road project was financed by the Thai government.

Then use that new road to facilitate....

Thaksin 'wants to open Koh Kong casino'

Thaksin Shinawatra is interested in developing another casino and entertainment complex in the Cambodian province of Koh Kong, Cambodian Defence Minister Teah Banh said yesterday. The Cambodian minister said in Koh Kong that talks about Mr Thaksin's plan were still unofficial. ''Prime Minister Hun Sen trusted and wanted Thaksin to advise on developing Koh Kong as a special economic zone,'' the general said. Koh Kong now has a casino complex operated by Koh Kong International, a firm owned by Pat Supapa, a senator representing the province and former governor. Gen Teah Banh was speaking as he joined Hun Sen and Cambodian Deputy PM Sok An in opening Road 48 and four new bridges. The road was built with one billion baht in financial assistance from Thailand. The Thai side was led by Deputy PM [and Thaksin brother-in-law] Somchai Wongsawat and Foreign Minister [and Thaksin lawyer/spokesman] Noppadon Pattama.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/15May2008_news05.php

Edited June 28, 2008 by sriracha john

[Tony Clifton]

Where did you see that?

In the same Post article:

"The committee, chaired by newly-appointed chairman Pongpol Adireksarn, also agreed that the listing of the ancient Hindu temple should not cover only the temple, but also the area around the temple, which is on Thai soil."

This obvioulsy goes beyond Noppadon's "let Cambodians do what they want, we won't get in their way" deal. Thais want their own slice of pie - co-management of the site.

Again, the problem is not the deal itself, which is the size of a comb indeed, it's the Thai FM working for the other side. Actually for Thaksin's investment in Koh Kong but we can't prove that at the moment, can we? Still, does anyone here really believe two deals are unconnected? I don't think so.

The question is - what happens to Noppadon now? Nation and BP think he'll lose his position but parlament gave him a vote of confidence and there's not talk of reshuffle. I think it's possible that PPP will remove him on their own terms, not at Democrats request. It is also possible that he'd stay, if they think the can manage public backlash. A bit like Jakrapob's situation in his last days.

Exactly like Jakrapob, Noppadol will soon find himself in the pile of discarded disposable fools Thaksin always inevitably leaves behind. May shame follow you all for the remainder of your lives.

It would be quite a treat someday if all these disposable fools and traitors revealed their conversations with and true character of Thaksin, how he baited, fooled and deceived them all.

[sriracha john]

Out to lunch???

Despite facing no-confidence debate in the Parliament, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej shows his skill at making a paper bird.

The Nation

It looks like a total waste of time. What can you do if the PM sits there and makes paper birds? What's the point of the whole exercise? Nothing, nada, zilch.

For a video on how the Leader of this Country spent his time in Parliament today....

VIDEO LINK:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/24...es_30076397.php

UNBELIEVABLE.................. And this guy is Prime Minister?????

Does he not have any shame?

The short answer is "no."

Samak defends paper crane folding during censure debate

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said he has been folding paper cranes while listening to House debates since he was young.

During his live talk programme on NBT channel, Samak said he would like to tell his critics that there was nothing wrong with the paper crane folding because he concentrated on hearing the debates while folding the papers.

- The Nation

Edited June 29, 2008 by sriracha john

[Meerkat]

Where did you see that?

In the same Post article:

"The committee, chaired by newly-appointed chairman Pongpol Adireksarn, also agreed that the listing of the ancient Hindu temple should not cover only the temple, but also the area around the temple, which is on Thai soil."

This obvioulsy goes beyond Noppadon's "let Cambodians do what they want, we won't get in their way" deal. Thais want their own slice of pie - co-management of the site.

No, the area he refers to is already mentioned in the communique as the buffer-zone, N3, which is due to go before the WHC in 2010 after the boundaries have been finalised. That area has always been designated for joint Thai/Cambodian management for preservation purposes. So as I originally stated, the head of the Thai WHC is planning on going ahead as planned with a co-hosting of Cambodia's sole listing, and not a joint UNESCO listing as you imply. What happens now that the PAD have (at least temporarily) put the stoppers on the idea is anyone's guess, although I doubt it'll do Thai-Cambodian relations much good.

Again, the problem is not the deal itself, which is the size of a comb indeed, it's the Thai FM working for the other side. Actually for Thaksin's investment in Koh Kong but we can't prove that at the moment, can we? Still, does anyone here really believe two deals are unconnected? I don't think so.

I've already said that there may well be a link between the two issues, and if it ever turns out to be true, Thaksin and his ilk be damned.

Regarding the road SRJ points out, it might be an idea to put it into perspective. Cambodia receives aid from many of its trading partners for infrastructure projects (the aid from Thailand in this instance was in the form of a 300m grant, and an 870m soft-loan). It was the then Thai Prime Minister Chatichai Choonhavan's idea in 1989 that a concerted effort be made between all the Indochinese nations to improve transport links for trade. Cambodia has already received infrastructure grants and soft-loans from amongst others Japan, Vietnam, South Korea and Australia, as well as the usual supranationals - link is here. It's also received aid from Thailand for other infrastructure projects.

No doubt there'll be a whole string of Japanese, Vietnamese et al casinos opening up all over Cambodia soon too...

[sriracha john]

Regarding the road SRJ points out, it might be an idea to put it into perspective. Cambodia receives aid from many of its trading partners for infrastructure projects

Merely coincidence that this particular infrastructure project from this particular trading partner benefitted a particular person.... at Thai taxpayer expense (as per this particular person's norm).

[Meerkat]

Regarding the road SRJ points out, it might be an idea to put it into perspective. Cambodia receives aid from many of its trading partners for infrastructure projects

Merely coincidence that this particular infrastructure project from this particular trading partner benefitted a particular person.... at Thai taxpayer expense (as per this particular person's norm).

I've got no idea. All I do know with a bit of googling, is that the route upgrade wasn't just a bi-partisan initiative to be decided over a round of golf, but part of ASEAN's ASEAN Highway project, which is itself part of the greater Asian Highway network planned by the UN in 1959. I don't know why Thailand was funding this particular stretch of road. Actually I'd be surprised if funding for each part of the network wasn't decided at a centralised level (ASEAN/UN), but that's just a guess.

I'd assume that if there's evidence to support any wrongdoing,the NCCC will rightfully pursue the case. Personally I'd just let them get on with rooting it out rather than make insinuations here.

[sriracha john]

The Council of State has essentially told Noppadope, "Shut up, punk"....

Council of State advises Foreign Affairs Ministry to accept court’s ruling on Preah Vihear

Secretary-General of the Council of State Pornthip Jala says the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should strictly abide by the Administrative Court’s ruling to suspend a joint communiqués signed by Thailand and Cambodia on the registration of the Preah Vihear temple as World Heritage.

Ms Pornthip says the issue of Preah Vihear affects ties between Thailand and Cambodia and she is afraid that there will be conflicts between the two countries if the Ministry of Foreign Affairs does not abide by the court’s ruling.

The Secretary-General says the Council of State will carefully examine the ministry’s appeal against the court’s ruling and she has yet seen statements in the communiqué which the premier seeks interpretation from the council.

- ThaiNews

[Old Man River]

The Council of State has essentially told Noppadope, "Shut up, punk"....

Council of State advises Foreign Affairs Ministry to accept court’s ruling on Preah Vihear

Secretary-General of the Council of State Pornthip Jala says the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should strictly abide by the Administrative Court’s ruling to suspend a joint communiqués signed by Thailand and Cambodia on the registration of the Preah Vihear temple as World Heritage.

Ms Pornthip says the issue of Preah Vihear affects ties between Thailand and Cambodia and she is afraid that there will be conflicts between the two countries if the Ministry of Foreign Affairs does not abide by the court’s ruling.

- ThaiNews

Is Ms. Pornthip really saying that there may be conflicts between Thailand and Cambodia if the Foreign Ministry doesn't abide by the court's ruling and suspend the joint registration of the temple as a World Heritage site? I would have thought it was just the opposite (there may be conflicts between Thailand and Cambodia if Thailand does suspend the joint agreement).

Perhaps this is just a poor translation of what she said.

[hammered]

Wasnt sure where to put this littel unnoticed gem, so here I guess

The Administrative Court's injunction against Thailand's support of the listing of Preah Vihear might not overrule the joint communique signed by Thailand and Cambodia on May 22 in Paris, according to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation.

seems innocuous reporting until you read the following:

The government said the joint communique was signed on June 18 between Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama and Cambodian Deputy Prime Minister Sok An in Bangkok one day after receiving cabinet endorsement.

So according to the UN the accord was signed in Paris on May 22 just under a month before the cabinet endorsement. Seems someone has been telling lies and has been caught. But who, the UN?

Rest of the story from the Post at: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=128680

[sriracha john]

Another "unsure of where to post" posts, but it involves a coalition-partner of the government...

and it's still yet another one of those

EC gives red card to Puea Pandin Party MP

The Election Commission Thursday issued a red card against Puea Pandin Party MP representing Roi Ei on charges of vote buying.

EC Secretary-General Sutthipol Thaweechaikarn said the EC had strong evidence to believe that Noppadon Polsue, an MP from Roi Et's Constituency, transported voters to polling stations and bought votes.

- The Nation (today)

[Meerkat]

Wasnt sure where to put this littel unnoticed gem, so here I guess

The Administrative Court's injunction against Thailand's support of the listing of Preah Vihear might not overrule the joint communique signed by Thailand and Cambodia on May 22 in Paris, according to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation.

seems innocuous reporting until you read the following:

The government said the joint communique was signed on June 18 between Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama and Cambodian Deputy Prime Minister Sok An in Bangkok one day after receiving cabinet endorsement.

So according to the UN the accord was signed in Paris on May 22 just under a month before the cabinet endorsement. Seems someone has been telling lies and has been caught. But who, the UN?

Rest of the story from the Post at: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=128680

Looks like that one's been put to rest:

"I would like to clarify on the matter of fact I wrote to the Chairman of the Senate's Foreign Affair Committee based on the information I have from Paris. The information of the date of the approval in the document was not quite accurate.

"I'm told and the final agreement was signed in both Phnom Penh and Bangkok on June 18. So an original agreement that I referred was a informal document but clearly pending cabinet approval in June."

From The Nation.