Same Same But Different

[withnail]

Just wondered where this Thaiglish expression originates from do the Thais have a saying that is similar to this?

[loong]

Same same but different?

Never heard it said!

[SAY WHAT !]

From some Falangs.

Because some Thais who could not speak English so well, and

when they need to say this meaning " It is almost the same.... "

They will say " SAME SAME ".

And falangs started joking about this by saying " Same Same But Different "

[Firefoxx]

Yes, foriegners would never say the same word twice. However, one way Thai emphasize many things is to repeat it.

Ex: "true"=jing, "very true"=jing jing

"Late"=sai, "very late"=sai sai

"easy"=sabai, "very easy"=sabai sabai

"many"=mark, "very many"=mark mark

So, in the Thinglish way of things, "similar" would be "same same" (muan muan gun), and foreigners would take that and improve on it.

[Richard W]

So, in the Thinglish way of things, "similar" would be "same same" (muan muan gun), and foreigners would take that and improve on it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd got the impression that "same same" represented เดียวกัน [M]diao [M]kan, i.e. having the same identity. A Thai once complained of my saying 'same' (= เหมือนกัน [H]muean [M]kan to him) when he realised I meant เดียวกัน - he said I should have said 'same same'.

English 'same' seems to be usable where Thais would use คล้าย [H]khlaai 'similar' - I've been corrected for using เหมือน [H]muean when I should have used คล้าย. It also overlaps เท่า [F]thao 'equal' - I've been corrected here too.

[SAY WHAT !]

These skirts are the same size > In this case SAME = เดียวกัน

These skirts have similar color > :::::::::::::: SIMILAR = คล้ายกัน

These skirts look the same > :::::::::::::: SAME = เหมือนกัน

[Firefoxx]

I don't really know about the subtle distinctions, but I think that same same can be muan muan gun. Think about a lady at a store that sells two brands of batteries. A Thai person comes in and asks which one to buy, the lady says "gau muan muan gun lae", she'll probably mean "they can both be used with no difference". A farang comes in and asks which one to buy, the lady says "same same". Muan is actually not *exactly* the same... you would have to say something like "muan gun dia" or "un diaw gun" to be exactly the same. For Thais, Coke and Pepsi could be called "muan muan gun"... so be a bit wary when some a Thai says "same same" about something, hehe.

[DavidUK21]

For me, thais just seem to point to one item and say 'same' then to the other matching item and say 'same' again. kind of like that.

<-----SAME - SAME ----->

[withnail]

I don't really know about the subtle distinctions, but I think that same same can be muan muan gun. Think about a lady at a store that sells two brands of batteries. A Thai person comes in and asks which one to buy, the lady says "gau muan muan gun lae", she'll probably mean "they can both be used with no difference". A farang comes in and asks which one to buy, the lady says "same same".

This is the sort of answer I was expecting, is "muan muan gun" a phrase that Thai's would use quite often to mean similar, but with differences, or as my gf says sometimes, "little bit same".

If so I can imagine it might have been a "witty" farnang who added "but different" to the end.

My point relly being can I now add muan muan gun to my vocabulary, could I ask for example in a shop something like this:

"lao ni muan muan gun, chai mai Khrap?"

I read in my Thai grammar book that when Thais repeat adjectives for emphasis it' would mean something like very same, and that you should say the first adjective with a higher tone than normal or in the case of a word that already has a high tone just draw it out longer.

It also says that this pattern of repeating adjectives is more commonly used by women.

[Firefoxx]

A higher tone than normal? Hmm, which grammar book is that? So far, all the "double" words I've heard have been pronounced the same, with no emphasis or tone change for both words.

To say that women do it more than men.... hmm, I really doubt it. It's not a feminine form of speech in any way. What a strange grammar book...

[meadish_sweetball]

A higher tone than normal?  Hmm, which grammar book is that?  So far, all the "double" words I've heard have been pronounced the same, with no emphasis or tone change for both words.

To say that women do it more than men.... hmm, I really doubt it.  It's not a feminine form of speech in any way.  What a strange grammar book...

No, there is nothing strange about it, since this is a fairly common phenomenon in Thai, and now that you have read about it, you will undoubtedly observe it yourself.

The repetition of words means different things depending on each individual case. There are a few patterns. For this "ultrasonic" reduplication with the first tone higher than the last, see this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...1&st=&p=entry

This particular type of reduplication IS uncommon in male speech and should not be emulated unless you want to risk sounding like a khatoey or a comedian.

I have personally never heard "meuan meuan kan", but I just might notice it now since you pointed it out.

In the sentence "krungtheep mii dteuk suung suung" - the reduplication of suung (NB! without changing the tone of the first "suung") serves to emphasize that "there are *many* tall buildings in Bangkok", not that they are extremely tall.

However, in the same sentence, changing the tone of the first "suung" into an exaggerated high tone (siang trii) changes the meaning of the statement, to mean "EXTREMELY" tall buildings.

Further, reduplication is also used in imperatives, when you want to tell somebody to do or refrain from doing something:

chuay phuut chaa chaa noi dai mai khrap

The neutral repetition of "chaa" is only used in imperative sentences, not in neutral statements. You can not say

khaw phuut chaa chaa

if you want to say "he/she/they speak(s) really slowly"

but should say

khaw phuut chaa maak OR khaw phuut chaa jang (loei) OR khaw phuut chaa jing jing

OR if you are a woman, you can change the tone of the first "chaa" to exaggeratedly high, and lo and behold, the sentence then DOES mean "he speaks SO slowly".

------

Cheers,

Meadish

[Firefoxx]

Ah, the "sooooong soong" thing... now I understand the change of tone. And yes, this type of of changed tone IS the type that women would use, not men (though it's totally ok to use it in jest with friends). It's more of an expression used to make your sentence sound funny or sarcastic, so it's not the "manly" thing to do.

However, the type where the two sound exactly the same is commonly used by both sexes, and won't make you sound like a transvestite. I hope withnail's grammar book makes the distinction between the two, since someone who refrains from using the normal repetition will have a hard time speaking conventional Thai.

There is also the repetition where you change the tone of the second word, ie. jing jiiiing (trill)->kao mai dai tum jing jiiiiing. This is also a bit feminine, but that doesn't mean that males cannot use it. There is also diaw(trill) diaw(neutral), which means "a moment". Tons of other examples I can't think of, but needless to say these expressions are pretty common.

About the "chaa chaa"... in the same way that you cannot use the double expression in some instances, you also cannot use the single word in some instances... like in your example "chuay phuut chaa chaa noi dai mai khrap" you cannot replace chaa chaa with a single chaa (it would sound really strange to Thais).

Of course, if you really want to learn a language, you have to listen and use it a lot in everyday life.

[withnail]

Thats pretty much exactly what the book say's cheers, sorry I didn't write the passage out in full but yes there are two seperate clauses.

However back to my original question is muan muan gun an expression the Thais use regulary. I don't want this a funny quirk of mine that all the Thais wonder why I say or laugh at.

[Firefoxx]

Yes, "muan muan gun" is fairly common, just like any other repeated adjective. Other similar phrases are "klai klai gun" and "kruue kruue gun".

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, "muan muan gun" is fairly common, just like any other repeated adjective.  Other similar phrases are "klai klai gun" and "kruue kruue gun".

Confirmed with a couple of Thai friends.

[Oswulf]

Just wondered where this Thaiglish expression originates from

This expression isn't only found in Thailand. I've encountered it both in Vietnam and in India. I suspect that it's more of a backpacker abuse of English (attempting to speak in pidgin English for the "benefit" of the local people), which has been picked up by locals and promulgated.