Letting Dogs Fight To 'sort Out Who's Boss'

[Smithson]

I've heard it said that when dogs don't get along it's OK to 'let them sort it out' and would like to ask others opinions.

We have a smaller dog that may have been taken away from her mother too early, missing out on some socialization. She likes to be boss and started dominating our older dog, becoming aggressive at times. Then one day they started fighting. I thought the older dog being twice the size would quickly get the upper hand, but she didn't and it was difficult to separate them. It was a big mistake.

Following the incident they hated each other, even though they'd been friends before. They couldn't be near each other without wanting to fight. It took a long time to get them to tolerate each other, but now they are best of friends again.

The other advice I've heard is to never allow dogs to show dominance over one another, as the 'pack leader' you should be the only boss. I've read this in regards to pitbulls, but I think it could apply to all breeds. We have 3 dogs, one is a pitbull and I've never tolerated any dominating behavior from him towards our other dogs. He is well behaved and will actually back off to a degree when our smaller dog tries to dominate him.

To prevent problems between our dogs, we make them stay in a seperate corner for about 30mins each day, usually when we eat. Since doing this the are much better behaved and understand we are the boss.

[Riley'sLife]

In my opinion it would be totally irresponsible to allow or condone dogs fighting to determine dominance (or for any other reason!). As a responsible dog owner it is of paramount importance to control your dogs to such an extent that they see you as pack leader.

Some humans seem to be able to fit this pack-leader role with relative ease, whereas some lack the respect of their dog as they treat the dog as their "baby" rather than a subordinate member of their pack. Others simply don't have the first clue about canine behavior and shouldn't have dogs as pets.

Patient, calm and consistent discipline of your dog - as opposed to punishment - will gain their total respect and loyalty in my experience, irrespective of the breed.

To allow dogs to fight is the height of cruelty, and is totally unnecessary. No professional would allow it, but I can well imagine a moron would.

Cheers Rick.

[Gary A]

I'm not sure if NOT letting them fight is right or not. We have a large Golden Retriever. When he was young, less than a year old, the soi dogs would attack him. He would lay on his back and pee on himself. When he was about thirteen months old he decided that he wasn't going to take it anymore. He won't bite another dog unless that dog bites him. He is satisfied to take his big body and run over the aggressive dog. He stands over the other dog and growls. That normally ends it and the next time the dogs meet, my dog wants to play but if the other dog wants to fight, that's OK too. There are VERY few fights among the neighborhood dogs now. They have a pecking order and all get along.

[elfe]

all you have to know is your dog(s) personality and be able to control it, with respect from your dog, earned through appropriate treatment and communication. and love

[bina]

dont condone fighting but interfering actually percipitates more fighting as u usually try to defend the less aggressive one, so he doesn give in...

once dogs work out their order of things, the fighting works itself out... HOWEVER, it should be fighting with growling and saliva, not holes in the submissive dog... it should be one dog asserting itself until the other submits,

NOT an out and out fight (which usually occurs more between females then two males, and almost never between male/female)...

u can acertain what goes on by observing the fight w/o being present with the dogs ; a persons presence often makes the fight worse...

it has nothing to do with pack leaders as pack leaders dont usually get involved in fights among other dogs unless they are the one to pick the fight.

crate or corner time does allow cooling off time and prevents some 'argueing'...

food is the great fight starter, as are toys....

observe to see what happens and why before deciding what the triggers are...

bina

[Nienke]

I think a difference need to be made between what I call a quarrel and a real fight.

Personally, I'm not in favor of 'dogs fighting it out'. Real fights can lead to great damage to the dogs involved.

What can be often observed in packs is that when tension heatens up (a quarrel starts) between two dogs a third one (usually a higher rank) will come and break them up. Pretty literally, as the third one will walk in between the two. By doing so, the two quarreling dogs will 'forget' for a split second what was going on, just enough to cool things down.

In a household where a younger dog takes the challenge with an older dog, often of the same sex, it usually already started when the dog was at young age. The young dog continuously was testing its bounderies, often 'supported by the human family members, who 'corrected' the older dog for showing 'aggression' towards the younger dog. What many owners misunderstand is that the younger dog is the one that shows imappropriate behavior in the eyes of the older dog, and thus the older dog feels the need to correct the younger dog. The older dog not only has the absolute right to do so, it also NEEDS to do so in order to keep peace in the pack and to teach the younger dog submission and its place within the hierarchy.

In my household Mr. Huey is a typical example. He is in the middle of his puberties and is an absolute handful, not only for me but also for my other dogs. Continuously he is testing his bounderies with regular corrections of the older ones and from me as a result. The dogs do that through growling, snapping, showing teeth, standing over him, biting over muzzle and in the neck while briefly pushing him down etc. This normally happens during, what looks to us as, playing. There's a lot going on during the play, such as paws on withers, rolling on back but still with paws kicking, pushing with body and bump, biting in neck and holding a bit too long (Huey), chasing, tails up and down, ears forwards/backwards, etc., etc.

My corrections are so once in a while a thundering "HUEY", time-outs, basic obedience and growling in the form of 'uh-uh's. Although, yesterday I wanted to bite his ear of after he destroyed my shoes. GGGgrrrrrrrrrr. Some sort of new game from the last week. Guess, I need to buy myself a shoe-cubboard now, for the first time in my life.

Anyway, I usually let the dogs sorts it out with Huey, and only interfere when the tension goes up too much.

Then, I have two other males, both adults. I guess I can let them together while I'm there to control them. But I don't feel the need to have them fight it out and then stick the parts together afterwards, plus that when I'm not around my staff can't control them when tension heatens up. My solution is to have them loose on a rotation basis. It has its advantages as well, as they need to come when I call them, sit-stay before barging out of the doghouse and every few hours I restrict their freedom. This is a routine they are used to and they are perfectly happy with it.

Problem with having two dogs fighting it out in a restricted area is that the 'looser' can't run off when the time is there. And two females can fight each other to death.

Then, when it heatens up between two dogs, it is very much case to remain calm and send each their own way. If you correct one, the other one may feel strenghtened by your 'support', and finds it necessary to attack.

I completely agree with Rick: it is very important that the dogs see you as the highest rank, the leader, the one who protects the pack from harm. This start with understanding the basics of the dog's language and how their behavior develops.

My 2 setang

Nienke

[sbk]

And an excellent two satangs it is Neinke. Wish I'd known you 10 years ago

I have always had females, and made the very bad mistake of, as Neinke said, disciplining the dominant female for "aggressive" behavior towards a newer younger female. Well, it ended in several very ugly nasty fights (it is true, females fight much harder and dirtier than the males) until I figured out it was MY behavior that was causing the problems.

So, dominant female gets petted first, fed first and not disciplined for asserting her authority in a non-fighting way. A fight gets broken up immediately and they BOTH get in trouble for it.

[bina]

nienke put it better then me....

nero and nala my two boxers were an excellant example of working things out...

it took six months.

nala was our first , nero came as an adult, a few years later, but they were the same age. nero had 'issues' anyway.

he systematically beat nala up and controlled her for the first six months including sublimating his biting reactions by biting her and not us when he would lose control.

we used crating, leashing (to me, inside the house and out), separate food areas, no toys laying around, and he had to really work for everything (sit or settle or down before getting food etc). in the beginning we actually had to feed him in his crate.

we often had to let him beat up nala up to a point. when i felt that she was giving him all the proper doggy signals of submission and he was continueing, he was sent to his crate for a cooling down.

we also greeted him first, fed him first, etc etc.

eventually he would only really beat her up when super excited or if visitors came, and missed our cues and tried to pet or interact with nala first. when alone in the house (i would sit outside and listen for skirmishes) after the first month or so there was no real fighting.

eventually it worked out that nala was able to eat, after nero would check both bowls, and then body block the access to them, and then (it was great fun learning his body language, so boxer/sublte) by a slight change in eye contact or stiffness of shoulders or shifting of positition, he would allow her to eat. and thats how it remained for the 10 years they were together until his death.

they slept together, and looked for each other when one left or went outside, but the food/toy fighting occasionally returned, usually precipitated by a visitor or some major change in family actions in the house. and then, usually a short 'bark' from me would separate them.

a few times there were some holes in ears or dewlap or lips or neck, but never serious. once and a while nala would fight back or instigate a fight, and then it was very noisy and usually the times she ended up with the holes....

during the first six months i contemplated often getting rid of nero. but my persistance and patience (and my kids following my lead in their treatment of the dogs) paid off. as the dogs got older, and ore used to eachother, the fighting decreased until the last years were almost fight free.

nala and foofoo had similar issues, with nala winning and dominating. (foofoo had no doggy behavior experience but learned). now foofoo is alone, and getting a bit out of hand not having a dominant bitch putting him in his place so we have to... although he isnt a dog that seems interested in actively dominating an other dog. he doesnt seem very pack oriented at all.

bina

[roygsd]

Your post about dogs fighting is misleading, as I note that both "dogs" you are refering to are in fact bitches, and that is a very important consideration.

2 Males will fight and it is usually over very quickly once 1 of the males displays surrender "behaviour. bitches on the other hand will fight to the death.

NEVER leave 2 bitches alone or in close proximity if you can help it.

Roy gsd

[bina]

roy that more or less is true, bitches fight (since they have the 'nest protection' instinct, not for winning dominance, but for protecting their 'home' which is why often bitches are better guard dogs (males wander, apropo the 'di..k in pants thread) ,

however, some breeds are more 'fight to the death' then others. boxers and labs usually seem to do ok with same sex companions, but there are some breeds like rhodesian ridgebacks and some others cant recall now that bitches that werent raised together can be a fight to the death if not controlled... most dog breed blurbs will mention this. besides obviously the dog aggressive types like the pit bulls and staffies...

bina

[TAWP]

With 28 dogs (and a decreasing count as they age), with now down to 3 rhodesian ridgebacks (3 passed away due to age in last 1.5 year), one has seen a fair amount of fighting. And while both our now past 'mega' rhodesian ridgebacks male was the alpha male (even if there are 3 distinct 'groups' in how they divide themselfs in territory around our houses) for a lot of male dogs and could hold his ground in tone even when they where a lot of them against him, the female alpha (also rhodesian ridgeback) could besides being equally dominant, be a real bitch in terms of scouting out a dog or two she didn't like and would follow them further outside her sleeping-place and around our yard to get a bite or two going to 'mark' them. Especially the female that her brother, the alpha male, took a fancy on.

Ah, dog politics...not that different from human...