Self Sufficient In Isaan

[jay-uk]

I am curious to know about anyone who has managed to become totally self sufficient within their own home & land and what lengths they have had to go to get to that stage. In a world where energy costs are continually on the rise and food proces with them. Most who have a small holding may be able to support themselves from their own home grown produce and/or reduce utility bills from a combination of solar or wind power if they have the land or space to do so. For a typical 4/5 person household in Thailand what would be the example needed to ensure you could keep out of the local BigC and Tesco Lotus. Would it be somthing like the following:

100 chickens (averaging two whole chickens per week to eat) plus any eggs laid

4 or 5 cows

2 or 3 Pigs

small to medium sized fish pond (cat fish to eat)

Solar Panels on the roof

Wind Turbine at the rear of house

Water well 1 or 2 to feed plants and main house (drinking and bathing water) once filtered

Chillie plants (Must have thse for the Thais)

Eggs Plants (A must for my mother-in-law) she can't live without them

Fruit trees and Vegetables patches

Has anyone managed to make a clean break from all the creature comforts that the supermarkets offer in favour of a simple life whereby the become totally localised. My wife and I have a little land but always seem to need the supermarkets when on holiday in Thailand and we often debate how we would live off the land if possible when we retire. Is it possible ?

Maybe a stupid topic to debate but maybe interesting to here peoples views...

Oh and I forgot the important and last point to be added to the overall plan which most of us men could not probably live without....A little shed at the back of the house where we make home brew larger if possible .......THEN we may be able to become self sufficient! has anyone brewed their own beers in Isaan?

Jay

[sabaijai]

I can't say for Isaan but it has been done in the north. See www.punpunthailand.org

[toptuan]

Without Big C and Tesco??? Shudder!!!

[OlRedEyes]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

[Dave the Dude]

Living in Rural Thailand and Holidaying here are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Why go without creature comforts, who are you harming? You wont get many anyways!

It all sounds too much like hard work,cost & maintanence in this climate. In other words utter B@llocks IMO

Sorry must go, my pet tree needs a hug

Dave

[bergen]

I dare say..............if you have no car or motorbike, no phones or sat tv, don't smoke ......or drink.......and are a devoted vegetarian..........anything is possible!

[jay-uk]

It is probably a ridiculous thought to become that involved in growing your own food and my wife laughs her head off about me becoming a keen gardner. She seems to think its a big joke when I talk about our retirement and is quick to tell her mom who thinks its funny also. Maybe becuase I've worked in an office all my life so she is under the impression I would not survive long in a garden. Ah well so much for the green fingers...

[Lickey]

It is probably a ridiculous thought to become that involved in growing your own food and my wife laughs her head off about me becoming a keen gardner. She seems to think its a big joke when I talk about our retirement and is quick to tell her mom who thinks its funny also. Maybe becuase I've worked in an office all my life so she is under the impression I would not survive long in a garden. Ah well so much for the green fingers...

It can be done Jay, well, to a certain extent, we have traded various fruit and salad items from our farm for cuts of meat and even clothes at the local market,

Solar panels are very exspensive and will take a long time to recover the cost, saving power methods will work out better, tell wife and family to switch off the tv and lights when nobody home.

Wind power? not sure where you are, but here in Namsom, we only get wind when a storm is imminent, you would need a UPS system to store the energy generated, again, very expensive.

If you are retiring here with your mrs, you will need a hobby, farming/gardening is a good way to go, Farming forum on TV is a good help and the internet also,

Cheers, Lickey.

[plachon]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

It implies producing as much as possible by your own labour and being as independent as possible from outside market forces. It doesn't mean withdrawing totally from the market or society. In fact, on the contrary it means engaging with society in a non-exploitative way and minimising one's dependence on market forces outside one's own control. Self-sufficiency practitioners are born survivors who are cushioned from external shocks by the choices they make.

I had a good friend who practiced self-sufficiency/permaculture in Chaiyaphum up until last year when he sadly died at the age of 82. He grew most, but not all, of his own food and relied on solar, woodfuel and wind for energy needs. He had a vehicle, but rarely used it and only travelled outside his farm when necessary. He was extremely attached to the land he farmed, but allowed nature to do most of the hard work. He lived a life of leisure that many would be jealous of who work all hours for their two week breaks in the sun. He could work on the farm for a few hours morning and evening and spend the rest of the day reading/meditating/sleeping as the mood took. One of the most content and satisfied persons I've ever known.

Anyone could live this lifestyle with the right vision, mental attitude and a few rai of land to nurture.

Edited June 26, 2008 by plachon

[jay-uk]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

It implies producing as much as possible by your own labour and being as independent as possible from outside market forces. It doesn't mean withdrawing totally from the market or society. In fact, on the contrary it means engaging with society in a non-exploitative way and minimising one's dependence on market forces outside one's own control. Self-sufficiency practitioners are born survivors who are cushioned from external shocks by the choices they make.

I had a good friend who practiced self-sufficiency/permaculture in Chaiyaphum up until last year when he sadly died at the age of 82. He grew most, but not all, of his own food and relied on solar, woodfuel and wind for energy needs. He had a vehicle, but rarely used it and only travelled outside his farm when necessary. He was extremely attached to the land he farmed, but allowed nature to do most of the hard work. He lived a life of leisure that many would be jealous of who work all hours for their two week breaks in the sun. He could work on the farm for a few hours morning and evening and spend the rest of the day reading/meditating/sleeping as the mood took. One of the most content and satisfied persons I've ever known.

Anyone could live this lifestyle with the right vision, mental attitude and a few rai of land to nurture.

I am strong of the belief that most of us in the western world are trapped within our own lives and the more we see and want the more we become miserable with our everyday existence. However, I am one of those where mental attitude would be the problem. Our land is only 5 mins from BigC and most days out of boredom or to get away from the missus for an hour I would walk around the shopping malls and come back home with some useless crap that i didn't really need in the first place. Yet when I come home back to UK everytime I miss the potential simplicity of the life out in Ubon and how things could be very much less complicated.

[plachon]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

It implies producing as much as possible by your own labour and being as independent as possible from outside market forces. It doesn't mean withdrawing totally from the market or society. In fact, on the contrary it means engaging with society in a non-exploitative way and minimising one's dependence on market forces outside one's own control. Self-sufficiency practitioners are born survivors who are cushioned from external shocks by the choices they make.

I had a good friend who practiced self-sufficiency/permaculture in Chaiyaphum up until last year when he sadly died at the age of 82. He grew most, but not all, of his own food and relied on solar, woodfuel and wind for energy needs. He had a vehicle, but rarely used it and only travelled outside his farm when necessary. He was extremely attached to the land he farmed, but allowed nature to do most of the hard work. He lived a life of leisure that many would be jealous of who work all hours for their two week breaks in the sun. He could work on the farm for a few hours morning and evening and spend the rest of the day reading/meditating/sleeping as the mood took. One of the most content and satisfied persons I've ever known.

Anyone could live this lifestyle with the right vision, mental attitude and a few rai of land to nurture.

I am strong of the belief that most of us in the western world are trapped within our own lives and the more we see and want the more we become miserable with our everyday existence. However, I am one of those where mental attitude would be the problem. Our land is only 5 mins from BigC and most days out of boredom or to get away from the missus for an hour I would walk around the shopping malls and come back home with some useless crap that i didn't really need in the first place. Yet when I come home back to UK everytime I miss the potential simplicity of the life out in Ubon and how things could be very much less complicated.

How right you are. Modern man (& woman!), whether Western or Thai has now substituted BigC, Tesco, etc. as the temple/church/mosque of choice for their infinite spiritual needs, which gives them that little quick lift or fix, but still leaves them empty inside and needing another one tomorrow. It's the religion of mass consumerism which now dominates people's lives. Breaking away from it totally, as my friend did, is quite a challenge for most and it is the mental attitude that proves the biggest obstacle to overcome. However, it's not something that can be achieved overnight, but like coming off heroin can be done in gradual stages. One less useless piece of crap here or one more hour of leisure watching the sunset with someone you love there or listening to the sound of the wind in the trees there. The choices are endless and simplicity starts at home. Reading something like Walden Pond by Henry David Thoreau might help, even though 150 + years old it is timeless I found.

[fruity]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

It implies producing as much as possible by your own labour and being as independent as possible from outside market forces. It doesn't mean withdrawing totally from the market or society. In fact, on the contrary it means engaging with society in a non-exploitative way and minimising one's dependence on market forces outside one's own control. Self-sufficiency practitioners are born survivors who are cushioned from external shocks by the choices they make.

I had a good friend who practiced self-sufficiency/permaculture in Chaiyaphum up until last year when he sadly died at the age of 82. He grew most, but not all, of his own food and relied on solar, woodfuel and wind for energy needs. He had a vehicle, but rarely used it and only travelled outside his farm when necessary. He was extremely attached to the land he farmed, but allowed nature to do most of the hard work. He lived a life of leisure that many would be jealous of who work all hours for their two week breaks in the sun. He could work on the farm for a few hours morning and evening and spend the rest of the day reading/meditating/sleeping as the mood took. One of the most content and satisfied persons I've ever known.

Anyone could live this lifestyle with the right vision, mental attitude and a few rai of land to nurture.

I am strong of the belief that most of us in the western world are trapped within our own lives and the more we see and want the more we become miserable with our everyday existence. However, I am one of those where mental attitude would be the problem. Our land is only 5 mins from BigC and most days out of boredom or to get away from the missus for an hour I would walk around the shopping malls and come back home with some useless crap that i didn't really need in the first place. Yet when I come home back to UK everytime I miss the potential simplicity of the life out in Ubon and how things could be very much less complicated.

How right you are. Modern man (& woman!), whether Western or Thai has now substituted BigC, Tesco, etc. as the temple/church/mosque of choice for their infinite spiritual needs, which gives them that little quick lift or fix, but still leaves them empty inside and needing another one tomorrow. It's the religion of mass consumerism which now dominates people's lives. Breaking away from it totally, as my friend did, is quite a challenge for most and it is the mental attitude that proves the biggest obstacle to overcome. However, it's not something that can be achieved overnight, but like coming off heroin can be done in gradual stages. One less useless piece of crap here or one more hour of leisure watching the sunset with someone you love there or listening to the sound of the wind in the trees there. The choices are endless and simplicity starts at home. Reading something like Walden Pond by Henry David Thoreau might help, even though 150 + years old it is timeless I found.

I think total self sufficiency is near impossible in modern society, however, it is possible to reach a degree of self sufficiency as has been said.

We often enjoy meals, the entire contents of which are produced by us, even down to the rice & chilli's. We have pigs, chickens (egg layers) Ducks (meat) Fish ponds with a variety of species, even Bullfrogs as well as lots of fruit & vegetables. We also have cows, however, these are of little use other than providing fertiliser. It is very satisfying!

[Gary A]

Self sufficiency is what you do when you have no other options. The hoe just doesn't fit in my hands anymore.

[Dave the Dude]

I am strong of the belief that most of us in the western world are trapped within our own lives and the more we see and want the more we become miserable with our everyday existence. However, I am one of those where mental attitude would be the problem. Our land is only 5 mins from BigC and most days out of boredom or to get away from the missus for an hour I would walk around the shopping malls and come back home with some useless crap that i didn't really need in the first place. Yet when I come home back to UK everytime I miss the potential simplicity of the life out in Ubon and how things could be very much less complicated.

Hi Jay

Whilst its sensible to plan your future, I believe its quite hard to accurately know how you will spend your day when retired here. I certainly had little idea but things fall into place and my times working in an office in & around London are now a distant unimportant memory (except for receiving a pension!). I still find outdoor activities hard, due to the heat!

To get out of our village (sometimes with er' indoors), I visit friends, go eat out at the many,many restaurants(v cheap BTW) or help (Thai)friends with lifts in my truck.

I remember me ol' dad used to say 'he didn't know how found time to work.' Bless him and I now feel the same way.

Dave

Edited June 29, 2008 by Dave the Dude

[cathyy]

The concept is good, and would no doubt work, but you need to do a lot more reading about self-sufficiency farming.

100 chickens? Dear me, no, that's way too many unless you plan on selling eggs at a roadside stand. You only need a couple dozen, and you let one sit a clutch of eggs once in a while to increase the flock. You stew the old hens when they begin to lay poorly; you fry up the young males that you hatched since they won't ever lay, being sure to keep one or two around to keep the hens happy.

Do you know many rai of pasture it will take to keep 4 or 5 cows in hay and well-fed? Not that anybody here actually raises cows that way, based on the poor starving cows I see munching the grass alongside the roads.

You're on target with the pigs for the most part. You only need one or two good sows and you raise the piglets to eat when they are big enough. You replace her with one of her piglets as she starts to have smaller litters. You can sell any extra piglets.

[OlRedEyes]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

Self-sufficiency means I rely totally only upon myself. Period. Self-sufficiency is impossible.

Partial self-sufficiency is uneconomical - and stupid IMO - unless the product/service is so scarce or expensive that I cannot trade for it at a better rate than I can earn doing what I do best, AND i can produce it. It is the basis of economics.

I cannot build this PC that I use to do this post from scratch, including manufacturing all it's components from raw materials I mine and process myself at a cheaper rate than I can buy it. It would be ludicrous to even try. The concept of self-sufficiency will NEVER work again, hasn't for thousands of years.

It's a buzz-word in the face of economic pressure. A placebo.

[rick75]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

Self-sufficiency means I rely totally only upon myself. Period. Self-sufficiency is impossible.

Partial self-sufficiency is uneconomical - and stupid IMO - unless the product/service is so scarce or expensive that I cannot trade for it at a better rate than I can earn doing what I do best, AND i can produce it. It is the basis of economics.

I cannot build this PC that I use to do this post from scratch, including manufacturing all it's components from raw materials I mine and process myself at a cheaper rate than I can buy it. It would be ludicrous to even try. The concept of self-sufficiency will NEVER work again, hasn't for thousands of years.

It's a buzz-word in the face of economic pressure. A placebo.

I don't see a problem with partial self-sufficiency.

If you enjoy a little manual labour to keep you fit and out of the bars.

I don't think you will save a fortune doing it, but it can be very good for the soul.

I have a mate here in Australia that sold a business worth many millions of dollars to get into farming, he grew up on a farm and always wanted to get back to his roots, he looks 10 years younger and fitter since doing it and is far more content with his place in this World.

I say dip your toe in the water and have a go.

[Bluelotus]

Food you grow yourself always tastes better

[chuckd]

As soon as I get my gun, I can be the hunter/provider I am meant to be.

[plachon]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

Self-sufficiency means I rely totally only upon myself. Period. Self-sufficiency is impossible.

Partial self-sufficiency is uneconomical - and stupid IMO - unless the product/service is so scarce or expensive that I cannot trade for it at a better rate than I can earn doing what I do best, AND i can produce it. It is the basis of economics.

I cannot build this PC that I use to do this post from scratch, including manufacturing all it's components from raw materials I mine and process myself at a cheaper rate than I can buy it. It would be ludicrous to even try. The concept of self-sufficiency will NEVER work again, hasn't for thousands of years.

It's a buzz-word in the face of economic pressure. A placebo.

I'm not going to try and convince you the meaning of self-sufficiency as you've already made up your mind it is an absolute term. However, where I would draw exception, is your belief that the human species does, or indeed should, make decisions about life and lifestyle based only on the concept of "economics" (again a term that can mean many things to different people). This is self-delusion on your part.

My daughter has just made some shortbread biscuits all by herself. I'm just eating one and it is delicious. The ingredients probably cost more than the 95 p it would cost me to buy some raisin shortbreads in the shop up the road, never mind the cost of energy for the cooker, time spent in washing up and her labour at minimum wage. The Adam Smith argument tells me it is uneconomic and I should tell her to stop trying to be self-sufficeint and just give her the money to go and buy the biscuits in Sainsbury (Don't forget we boycott Tesco's so can't go there ).

Ditto with the runner beans or tomatoes on the patio outside. Absolutely idiotic and uneconomic to grow them myself when all costs are taken into account - much cheaper to buy down the supermarket. Ditto making our own jam with the blackcurrants off the bush in the garden or apple chutney. Absolutely stupid! Idiots aren't we when we could buy the jam or chutney from the Co-Op at half the price. And what a waste of time to boot, when one could be out working and earning money or watching TV instead!!!

If you still don't get it, then you'll never understand the concept of self-sufficiency and I'm wasting my time.

But don't fall into the trap that all humans make decisions based on rational economic choices alone.

[OlRedEyes]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

Self-sufficiency means I rely totally only upon myself. Period. Self-sufficiency is impossible.

Partial self-sufficiency is uneconomical - and stupid IMO - unless the product/service is so scarce or expensive that I cannot trade for it at a better rate than I can earn doing what I do best, AND i can produce it. It is the basis of economics.

I cannot build this PC that I use to do this post from scratch, including manufacturing all it's components from raw materials I mine and process myself at a cheaper rate than I can buy it. It would be ludicrous to even try. The concept of self-sufficiency will NEVER work again, hasn't for thousands of years.

It's a buzz-word in the face of economic pressure. A placebo.

I'm not going to try and convince you the meaning of self-sufficiency as you've already made up your mind it is an absolute term. However, where I would draw exception, is your belief that the human species does, or indeed should, make decisions about life and lifestyle based only on the concept of "economics" (again a term that can mean many things to different people). This is self-delusion on your part.

My daughter has just made some shortbread biscuits all by herself. I'm just eating one and it is delicious. The ingredients probably cost more than the 95 p it would cost me to buy some raisin shortbreads in the shop up the road, never mind the cost of energy for the cooker, time spent in washing up and her labour at minimum wage. The Adam Smith argument tells me it is uneconomic and I should tell her to stop trying to be self-sufficeint and just give her the money to go and buy the biscuits in Sainsbury (Don't forget we boycott Tesco's so can't go there ).

Ditto with the runner beans or tomatoes on the patio outside. Absolutely idiotic and uneconomic to grow them myself when all costs are taken into account - much cheaper to buy down the supermarket. Ditto making our own jam with the blackcurrants off the bush in the garden or apple chutney. Absolutely stupid! Idiots aren't we when we could buy the jam or chutney from the Co-Op at half the price. And what a waste of time to boot, when one could be out working and earning money or watching TV instead!!!

If you still don't get it, then you'll never understand the concept of self-sufficiency and I'm wasting my time.

But don't fall into the trap that all humans make decisions based on rational economic choices alone.

You describe dabbling in partial self-sufficiency in small areas of your needs. A hobby, no more.

You use the word self-sufficiency to make it sound grand. It doesn't even come close.

'I am a great chef, I can cook an egg'. As I said, it's a buzz-word. a placebo.

Edited June 29, 2008 by OlRedEyes

[jay-uk]

I don't think it is impossible at all. I just think we in the western world think it is impossible because we are too lazy to do it. My thai in laws seem to manage quite well growing what they need. I will not say the have totally dispensed with the need for a shop or market visit but they have minimised their outgoings by growing the majority of what they eat. In that respect I would not see my wife and I in retirement becoming hermits and never venturing out from the house. However, it would be nice to think that I could reduce what I spend from my pension by having some of our own produce. Even though Thailand is experiencing some high inflation same as here in the west but Thai prices are still relatively low by comparison and therefore most living in Thailand don't yet feel the pinch unless Thai themselves.

Here in the UK we are entering a period of uncertainty as prices in the shops and some of the highest oil/fuel & utility costs have really started to have an effect of peoples pockets. Maybe self sufficiency is a long way off for some but in future we may have to rely on old methods as the world and economy go full circle. I remember my grandfather here in UK had a small holding when I was a young boy and my mother told storys how people used to trade amongst themselves during and after the war. No one used to go to supermarkets back then yet we feel we cannot do without them now. Maybe we can't because we have forgotten or chose to forget old traditions and pride convinces us we are better than having to revisit these methods of taking care of ourselves.

Edited June 29, 2008 by jay-uk

[Bluelotus]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

Self-sufficiency means I rely totally only upon myself. Period. Self-sufficiency is impossible.

Partial self-sufficiency is uneconomical - and stupid IMO - unless the product/service is so scarce or expensive that I cannot trade for it at a better rate than I can earn doing what I do best, AND i can produce it. It is the basis of economics.

I cannot build this PC that I use to do this post from scratch, including manufacturing all it's components from raw materials I mine and process myself at a cheaper rate than I can buy it. It would be ludicrous to even try. The concept of self-sufficiency will NEVER work again, hasn't for thousands of years.

It's a buzz-word in the face of economic pressure. A placebo.

I'm not going to try and convince you the meaning of self-sufficiency as you've already made up your mind it is an absolute term. However, where I would draw exception, is your belief that the human species does, or indeed should, make decisions about life and lifestyle based only on the concept of "economics" (again a term that can mean many things to different people). This is self-delusion on your part.

My daughter has just made some shortbread biscuits all by herself. I'm just eating one and it is delicious. The ingredients probably cost more than the 95 p it would cost me to buy some raisin shortbreads in the shop up the road, never mind the cost of energy for the cooker, time spent in washing up and her labour at minimum wage. The Adam Smith argument tells me it is uneconomic and I should tell her to stop trying to be self-sufficeint and just give her the money to go and buy the biscuits in Sainsbury (Don't forget we boycott Tesco's so can't go there ).

Ditto with the runner beans or tomatoes on the patio outside. Absolutely idiotic and uneconomic to grow them myself when all costs are taken into account - much cheaper to buy down the supermarket. Ditto making our own jam with the blackcurrants off the bush in the garden or apple chutney. Absolutely stupid! Idiots aren't we when we could buy the jam or chutney from the Co-Op at half the price. And what a waste of time to boot, when one could be out working and earning money or watching TV instead!!!

If you still don't get it, then you'll never understand the concept of self-sufficiency and I'm wasting my time.

But don't fall into the trap that all humans make decisions based on rational economic choices alone.

You describe dabbling in partial self-sufficiency in small areas of your needs. A hobby, no more.

You use the word self-sufficiency to make it sound grand. It doesn't even come close.

'I am a great chef, I can cook an egg'. As I said, it's a buzz-word. a placebo.

So often perfection is the enemy of good , subsistance maybe what we are talking about here not self sufficiency.

It is a good thing to try and produce that which you need , food remembers the heart and the hands. Consume less ,share what you have , appreciate one and other, don't worry about economics it is a carrot on a stick.

[plachon]

Self-sufficiency is totally impractical in the modern world, unless you want to live in total isolation....

It would imply buying nothing. Think about it.

Not really. Self-sufficeincy is a relative concept, not an absolute.

Self-sufficiency means I rely totally only upon myself. Period. Self-sufficiency is impossible.

Partial self-sufficiency is uneconomical - and stupid IMO - unless the product/service is so scarce or expensive that I cannot trade for it at a better rate than I can earn doing what I do best, AND i can produce it. It is the basis of economics.

I cannot build this PC that I use to do this post from scratch, including manufacturing all it's components from raw materials I mine and process myself at a cheaper rate than I can buy it. It would be ludicrous to even try. The concept of self-sufficiency will NEVER work again, hasn't for thousands of years.

It's a buzz-word in the face of economic pressure. A placebo.

I'm not going to try and convince you the meaning of self-sufficiency as you've already made up your mind it is an absolute term. However, where I would draw exception, is your belief that the human species does, or indeed should, make decisions about life and lifestyle based only on the concept of "economics" (again a term that can mean many things to different people). This is self-delusion on your part.

My daughter has just made some shortbread biscuits all by herself. I'm just eating one and it is delicious. The ingredients probably cost more than the 95 p it would cost me to buy some raisin shortbreads in the shop up the road, never mind the cost of energy for the cooker, time spent in washing up and her labour at minimum wage. The Adam Smith argument tells me it is uneconomic and I should tell her to stop trying to be self-sufficeint and just give her the money to go and buy the biscuits in Sainsbury (Don't forget we boycott Tesco's so can't go there ).

Ditto with the runner beans or tomatoes on the patio outside. Absolutely idiotic and uneconomic to grow them myself when all costs are taken into account - much cheaper to buy down the supermarket. Ditto making our own jam with the blackcurrants off the bush in the garden or apple chutney. Absolutely stupid! Idiots aren't we when we could buy the jam or chutney from the Co-Op at half the price. And what a waste of time to boot, when one could be out working and earning money or watching TV instead!!!

If you still don't get it, then you'll never understand the concept of self-sufficiency and I'm wasting my time.

But don't fall into the trap that all humans make decisions based on rational economic choices alone.

You describe dabbling in partial self-sufficiency in small areas of your needs. A hobby, no more.

You use the word self-sufficiency to make it sound grand. It doesn't even come close.

'I am a great chef, I can cook an egg'. As I said, it's a buzz-word. a placebo.

As I suspected, I'm probably wasting my time on a born cynic like yourself. But I imagine there are others reading this not so mired in cynicism who may be contemplating becoming more self-sufficient and this thread may be able to offer some rays of encouragement. As I already mentioned, I knew someone who was pretty, darn close to total self-sufficiency in Thailand and was one of the most content and happy persons I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. It was not a hobby with him (nor me, if truth be known), but a life vision or philosophy about how one can minimise one's dependence on the outside market, while maximising one's leisure/pleasure time. Not a placebo, but the perfect antidote to the stresses of modern living. A placebo is something false, but cooking an egg produced from a chicken that you have hatched, raised and nurtured is something real and special.

So, in conclusion, for those less jaded and cynical than ORE, you can be as self-sufficient as you want to be whatever your circumstances and every journey starts with a single step. That step might be getting an allotment, making elderflower wine or gathering hedgerow food for those in the West (with a strong UK slant I'm afraid) or it may be planning that move to a self-sufficient lifestyle in Thailand in the future, when costs of fuel, energy and basic food will be far more expensive than they are today. It's never too late to be (partly) self-sufficient.

[IsaanAussie]

To add my sixpence worth of philosophy. Self sufficiency is merely learning to rely on yourself and what you are capable of making happen. It does mean you have to live without financial transactions, or having to manufacture 100% of everything you use or consume. Barter trade and sale of produce are as old as humanity.

When you are in control of your life and are enjoying it, then you are truly self-sufficient.