Gay Pride

[Kaojai]

In the news today I saw two references to gay pride events and a minute or two of video coverage from each. Pretty much the same stuff you see from time to time. In one some right-wing skinheads were attacking the participants and in the other it looked like scenes from some grotesque carnival.

Most groups, usually ethnic or racial, that have pride events or pride parades, appear to try to show important people from that group or important accomplishments by members of the group or demonstrate talents of members, even if there may be a light-hearted theme to whole affair.

Whenever I see gay pride events they seem to be made up of half-naked guys and/or people dressed up in freakish costumes with sequins & feathered boas or with an inch or two of make-up smeared on their faces making them look like clowns.

As fun as some of these things may or may not be, do you feel pride in the way you are being identified? If you are gay, do you want others to immediately think of you as being someone who spends his time dressed up like a side-show attraction? Do you think such things, especially if they are advertised as an expression of Gay Pride, positively contribute to a better understanding and acceptance of gays?

[kek]

I have never understood the rationale in calling it "Pride". The expression makes me cringe.

What the hel_l is there to be proud about?

Some years ago there was a Lesbian group calling themselves "Ability" ... as opposed to what ... Disability?

Thanks to groups like Stonewall, Gays are now accepted and treated as equals in the West and at least tolerated here in Thailand. Having a "Gay Festival" would be more acceptable than calling it "Pride".

[jumnien]

I'm in favor of Gay Pride festivals. God knows there are groups indulging in Fat-people's Pride or Redneck Pride; why not Gay Pride, too! Life is a freak show to be enjoyed by all!

[twschw]

I have never understood the rationale in calling it "Pride". The expression makes me cringe.

What the hel_l is there to be proud about?

Some years ago there was a Lesbian group calling themselves "Ability" ... as opposed to what ... Disability?

Thanks to groups like Stonewall, Gays are now accepted and treated as equals in the West and at least tolerated here in Thailand. Having a "Gay Festival" would be more acceptable than calling it "Pride".

I think you need to be a bit more specific in what you mean by the "West". There are many places in the "West" where gays are not accepted nor treated as equals.

[ProThaiExpat]

This subject is quite "deep" for a serious analysis.

One distinction we should start off making is what such "parades" mean to the participants vs. the onlookers and then, of course, to the general public who get their "take" from the media.

Having attended a couple of the L.A. Pride Parades, about 10 years apart, I found the experience very liberating and almost "exhilarating". Being closeted at the time, it is almost indescribable to relate my feeling of empowerment when I was able to walk around the festival holding my lover's hand and kissing at will. It seemed so normal and "out there".

The participants in the parade probably feel much the same way and it is indeed a joy. Thus if your a "Dykes on Bikes", a member of PFLAG, gay physicians or any other participating group, "acting out" or demonstrating the momentary freedom of being yourself, is well worth the consequences, as it is a joy rarely felt.

Now that I am "out", I doubt it would have quite the same effect, although public displays of affection are not in my lifestyle in any case, so "acting out" in such a special event may still have some joy.

The public perception of such events is another issue entirely. I am a firm believer that the more outrageous acting of the gay community have done much to push the boundaries of public acceptance, even with the inevitable backlash, although those of us who act "conventional" in everyday life, often have a very positive effect on perception, once others get to know us and our sexual orientation.

The carnival atmosphere of such pride parades makes it fun for straights who attend, a la Mardi Gras, so I am a supporter of such events as the positives outweigh the negatives.

Those cities that are so intolerant of gays and heavily suppress any gay expression, that we read about every year, are the ultimate objective of those who feel a gay parade is a phalanx for inserting a wedge in the "closet door" and a step in the right direction for gay rights. After all, the right to have a parade and act as one wants in that parade, is a fundamental freedom that should be available to all. Decency should prevail on both sides of the issue.

Perhaps the word "Pride" is off the mark, I would use the word "Freedom Parade" as a more appropriate word, however, I think Pride may have so historical meaning that comes from the early gay rights movement and perhaps someone can post the history of the word "pride" and why it is used. After all, "gay" is hardly an accurate way of describing homosexual orientation.

[Kaojai]

After all, "gay" is hardly an accurate way of describing homosexual orientation.

Yes, that's another issue.

I've spent most of my adult life in places were there was no open gay/ homosexual community and consequently was totally out of the loop in terms of what being gay meant or what a supposed typical gay lifestyle was, etc.

I am in no doubt that I am homosexual (although the word carries so much negative baggage I'd properly prefer "queer"), but there's very little in my life that I would describe as gay as it would be understood by people living in the US or much of Europe or even farangs living in Bangkok. All of that passed me by when I was younger and, for the most part, it doesn't seem all that attractive to me now.

And, more to your observation, I would say that being queer has hardly resulted in me being "gay" in the traditional sense of mindless happiness. I don't know when or why that term was first applied to us. Those of us who do have a sense of humor tend to lean heavily on sarcasm, which might explain it.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Kaojai

[Ijustwannateach]

I think Pride events are more important in countries/situations in which homophobia and the closet have a stronger influence than this one. Just about any moment in Bangkok when I can see any persons at all, I can see at least a few relatively obviously gay or lesbian people around. Bangkok people, very generally speaking, don't really seem to need reminding that there are gay people around, or to mind them terribly much when they are.

The situation in the rural areas is probably different- but I don't know if a parade would really do much for the gays living in those areas, either. Getting a higher cohort past a Matthayom 3 education (junior high school) would probably be the best start for everyone concerned.

I've made no secret in the past of my distaste for the so-called Pride events held in Bangkok, which have primarily been promotions of the tourist trade in which the participatory Thai element has historically been very small and hardly representative- comprised largely of Thais euphemistically involved in the nightlife and massage industries. Most 'normal' gay Thais in Bangkok seem to have become pretty liberated without the help of Bangkok "Pride" events.

[thaicurious]

I have never understood the rationale in calling it "Pride". The expression makes me cringe.

What the hel_l is there to be proud about?...Thanks to groups like Stonewall, Gays are now accepted and treated as equals in the West and at least tolerated here in Thailand. Having a "Gay Festival" would be more acceptable than calling it "Pride".

while we've gained a few rights over years of hard struggle, gays are hardly yet treated as equals in the west. only six countries in the world have legalized gay marriage. only 17 others have some form of civil union and not all are equal to str8 marriages. by not allowing gays to enjoy the very same rights as str8s, we are treated as sub-humans in most of this world. there's not a whole lot of pride in being tolerated.

what's so important about pride? try going through life without it. shame, humiliation & disgrace you prefer? just the way a nonaccepting str8 world would have you feel about yourself. pride parades could not be more properly named.

the fort lauderdale (florida, usa) parade this year was very fun & well received by the community. no one made a fuss over the naked chests and painted faces. it is a parade, after all. a cousin of mine came as my honorary faghag. we got the people on the floats to throw us lots of beads which we shared with those around us. here's a link to our parade website www.stonewallstreetfestival.com/. i very much look forward to one day (i hope soon) screaming for beads in bangkok.

[jerry921]

It just shows what nonsense it is to keep gays out of the military. No one is better at dressing up and going on parade than gays.

[huggybear]

I have never understood the rationale in calling it "Pride". The expression makes me cringe.

What the hel_l is there to be proud about?...Thanks to groups like Stonewall, Gays are now accepted and treated as equals in the West and at least tolerated here in Thailand. Having a "Gay Festival" would be more acceptable than calling it "Pride".

while we've gained a few rights over years of hard struggle, gays are hardly yet treated as equals in the west. only six countries in the world have legalized gay marriage. only 17 others have some form of civil union and not all are equal to str8 marriages. by not allowing gays to enjoy the very same rights as str8s, we are treated as sub-humans in most of this world. there's not a whole lot of pride in being tolerated.

what's so important about pride? try going through life without it. shame, humiliation & disgrace you prefer? just the way a nonaccepting str8 world would have you feel about yourself. pride parades could not be more properly named.

the fort lauderdale (florida, usa) parade this year was very fun & well received by the community. no one made a fuss over the naked chests and painted faces. it is a parade, after all. a cousin of mine came as my honorary faghag. we got the people on the floats to throw us lots of beads which we shared with those around us. here's a link to our parade website www.stonewallstreetfestival.com/. i very much look forward to one day (i hope soon) screaming for beads in bangkok.

So when is our hetero-festival? Why should it be important that I announce to everyone that I prefer to sleep with women? Should I act more "manly" so that it's clear to everyone?

There are issues here that have always confused me. That the gender of the person I prefer to have sex with makes me a different race? Huh? I should have rights if I prefer to have sex with a goat?

First and foremost we are all people. Equal rights for all people, black, brown, white whatever. Who we choose to be in love with male, female, whatever, is our personal business and need not be announced unless drawn into it by conversation.

I've never understood why people need to announce, "oh, by the way, I'm gay". So what?????? Always seems to me those people are just attention seekers.

Flame away.

[Kaojai]

what's so important about pride? try going through life without it. shame, humiliation & disgrace you prefer? just the way a nonaccepting str8 world would have you feel about yourself. pride parades could not be more properly named.

I don't think the issue is about the importance of pride. I've certainly had my fill of "shame, humiliation & disgrace," and would welcome anything that helps me feel proud.

The point, at least for me, is what sorts of things promote a sense of pride in yourself and demonstrate to others that gays have cause to be proud.

The intellectual abilities, artistic talents, political achievements, etc of people who are gay make me proud.

gays are hardly yet treated as equals in the west.

And you think we'll gain equality based on: ???

i very much look forward to one day (i hope soon) screaming for beads in bangkok.

Maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud or whatever, but the ability to "scream for beads in Bangkok," doesn't strike me as a moment I would look back upon with pride.

It seems many parades actually promote some of the things for which others hold us in contempt. And, especially in Bangkok or Pattaya, the parade participants seem mostly drawn from the sex trade businesses.

The "shame, humiliation & disgrace" seems often to come from the belief that we all want to dress up like women or in bizarre costumes, to run around squealing with limp wrists and to try to be as silly as we can. If that is the perception of us held by non-gays, it's not how I want people to think of me, so I don't find any pride in events staged to reinforce those perceptions.

Have you ever found yourself in a group of people who are laughing at some gay joke or at the reference to being gay in movies or the silly escapades of gays on TV shows. Does that inspire pride? It seems at least some of these parades simply feed the same amused contempt people hold for us, at best, and provide fodder for people who feel justified in hating us.

Who we choose to be in love with male, female, whatever, is our personal business and need not be announced unless drawn into it by conversation. Flame away.

Actually I agree with you. I am a lot of things and have accomplished a fair number of things in my life which I would prefer to be used when identifying me. Who I have sex with or the positions we do it in or what turns me on are all personal, of importance to virtually no one and hardly how I want to be defined.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Kaojai

[PeaceBlondie]

So when is our hetero-festival? Why should it be important that I announce to everyone that I prefer to sleep with women? Should I act more "manly" so that it's clear to everyone?

There are issues here that have always confused me. That the gender of the person I prefer to have sex with makes me a different race? Huh? I should have rights if I prefer to have sex with a goat?

First and foremost we are all people. Equal rights for all people, black, brown, white whatever. Who we choose to be in love with male, female, whatever, is our personal business and need not be announced unless drawn into it by conversation.

I've never understood why people need to announce, "oh, by the way, I'm gay". So what?????? Always seems to me those people are just attention seekers.

Flame away.

Not to flame you, huggybear (nor to hug you, bear ), but the hetero-festivals have been going on since the Roman empire died. No, having sex with a goat - in case you are confused about sex or logic, also - has nothing to do with the right to have sex with whatever adult human you wish to have sex with.

I never understood why macho men often feel compelled to announce and boast about their sexual prowess with women. I have seldom heard gay men announce "oh, by the way, I'm gay." So what, indeed. A gay man who often announces that might indeed be as much of an attention seeker as those macho men.

[cophen]

what's so important about pride? try going through life without it. shame, humiliation & disgrace you prefer? just the way a nonaccepting str8 world would have you feel about yourself. pride parades could not be more properly named.

I don't think the issue is about the importance of pride. I've certainly had my fill of "shame, humiliation & disgrace," and would welcome anything that helps me feel proud.

The point, at least for me, is what sorts of things promote a sense of pride in yourself and demonstrate to others that gays have cause to be proud.

The intellectual abilities, artistic talents, political achievements, etc of people who are gay make me proud.

gays are hardly yet treated as equals in the west.

And you think we'll gain equality based on: ???

i very much look forward to one day (i hope soon) screaming for beads in bangkok.

Maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud or whatever, but the ability to "scream for beads in Bangkok," doesn't strike me as a moment I would look back upon with pride.

It seems many parades actually promote some of the things for which others hold us in contempt. And, especially in Bangkok or Pattaya, the parade participants seem mostly drawn from the sex trade businesses.

The "shame, humiliation & disgrace" seems often to come from the belief that we all want to dress up like women or in bizarre costumes, to run around squealing with limp wrists and to try to be as silly as we can. If that is the perception of us held by non-gays, it's not how I want people to think of me, so I don't find any pride in events staged to reinforce those perceptions.

Have you ever found yourself in a group of people who are laughing at some gay joke or at the reference to being gay in movies or the silly escapades of gays on TV shows. Does that inspire pride? It seems at least some of these parades simply feed the same amused contempt people hold for us, at best, and provide fodder for people who feel justified in hating us.

Who we choose to be in love with male, female, whatever, is our personal business and need not be announced unless drawn into it by conversation. Flame away.

Actually I agree with you. I am a lot of things and have accomplished a fair number of things in my life which I would prefer to be used when identifying me. Who I have sex with or the positions we do it in or what turns me on are all personal, of importance to virtually no one and hardly how I want to be defined.

But you allow yourself to be defined, or rather embarrassed, by the reactions that a bunch of straight people have for a bunch of gay people that you don't know who are choosing their own way to have a good time. The Thai boyfriend and I were at a New Year's Eve party in Chiang Mai where some large, hairy, gay German guys were celebrating the evening by wearing drag. When I laughed at them the BF turned round and said 'Why do you laugh? They're having sanuk, they're not hurting you. Why don't you let them have their fun without laughing at them'. He made me feel quite ashamed of myself. We gays spend all our lives whining about the fact that the straight world expects us to behave in a way that suits them but, often, we're no better than they are.

[peekint]

Thanks to groups like Stonewall, Gays are now accepted and treated as equals in the West and at least tolerated here in Thailand. Having a "Gay Festival" would be more acceptable than calling it "Pride".

I am not sure where in the West Gays are now accepted and treated as equals? Some few countries do nominally have "equal treatment under the law", but most Western societies themselves remain hostile - some to the point of violence. Whereas here in Thailand, where there isn't equal treatment under the law for anybody, Gay people seldom face hostility and are virtually never subjected to violence just because of who they are.

[peekint]

If you consider the origins of "Gay Pride" parades, you have to go back more than 10 years or so - go back 30 years (or more). It was a time in the USA when the American Psychological Association classified homosexuality as an illness, performing Gay sex acts was illegal in almost half of the States, it was perfectly legal to fire an employee for being -- or even being suspected of -- being Gay. The list goes on.

Indeed it was a time when being Proud of being Gay was almost out of the question. I was a time when just being visible as a Gay person in any way was a radical act, an act of civil disobedience, and, in some states, a felony. It was a time when I first came out, formed the first Gay student club at my university, traveled on speaking engagements to other universities and press events, and organized a local "Gay Pride" festival (which was attacked by the police, put several of us in the hospital, and all of us in jail). Being PROUD of being Gay was the ultimate act of revolution.

In the end it paid off, or seems to be paying off. Thirty years ago I never believed we would ever be considering the legalization of same-sex marriage. As another poster mentioned, it's our being visible that furthers our acceptance. Sure, some object to the most outrageous or distasteful displays that might be found at Pride events, but they notice, and they talk. And then when they meet the more common brand of Gay folk - the center of the bell curve - and realize they're not so different from their other friends and relatives. No change comes without discomfort.

Besides, we do it for the kids. When I was in High School, I was sure my boyfriend and I were the only two like us in the whole world, except for those who were sickos, the kind the APA called "mentally ill". We knew we weren't mentally ill. We were just not like the other kids

The suicide rate for Gay teens in those days was monstrous (my high school boyfriend made an attempt). It's still way too high. But now, I doubt there's a kid growing up outside some bizarre religious group who doesn't know there are other Gay people out there, leading real lives, loving, and being loved.

But I digress.

Another poster recommended that Pride be changed to Freedom. A bit late.

In 1973, the San Francisco parade was already called that:

http://thecastro.net/parade/parade/parade.html

Here's a quick summary of the SF parades (adapted from Wikipedia). Not sure why the name was changed to pride in 1995, I was long gone by then, here in the LOS.

San Francisco Pride History

Year Dates Festival name Theme & Estimated attendance

1970 June 28 Gay-in

1971 No Pride festival

1972 Christopher Street West 54,000

1973 Gay Freedom Day A Celebration of the Gay Experience 42,000

1974 Gay Freedom Day Gay Freedom by ’76 60,000

1975 Gay Freedom Day Join Us, The More Visible We Are, The Stronger We Become 82,000

1976 Gay Freedom Day United for Freedom, Diversity is our Strength 120,000

1977 Gay Freedom Day Gay Frontiers: Past Present, Future 250,000

1978 Gay Freedom Day Come Out with Joy, Speak out for Justice 240,000

1979 June 24 Gay Freedom Day Our Time has Come 200,000

1980 Gay Freedom Day Liberty and Justice for All 250,000

1981 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Front Line of Freedom 250,000

1982 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Out of Many...One 200,000

1983 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Strengthen the Ties, Break the Chains 200,000

1984 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Unity & More in ’84 300,000

1985 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Honor our Past, Secure our Future 350,000

1986 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Forward Together, No Turning Back 100,000

1987 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Proud, Strong, United 275,000

1988 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Rightfully Proud

1989 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Stonewall 20: A Generation of Pride

1990 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade The Future Is Ours

1991 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Hand In Hand Together

1992 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade A Simple Matter of Justice

1993 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade Year of the Queer 400,000 - 500,000

1994 International Lesbian & Gay Freedom Day Parade San Francisco to Stonewall: Pride & Protest

1995 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration A World Without Borders

1996 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Equality & Justice For All

1997 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration One Community Many Faces

1998 June 27/28 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Shakin’ It Up

1999 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Proud Heritage, Powerful Future 700,000

2000 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration It’s About Freedom 750,000

2001 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Queerific 1,000,000

2002 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Be Yourself, Change the World

2003 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration You’ve Gotta Give Them Hope

2004 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Out 4 Justice

2005 June 25/26 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Stand Up, Stand Out, Stand Proud

2006 June 24/25 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Commemorate, Educate, Liberate — Celebrate! "hundreds of thousands"

2007 June 23/24 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration Pride Not Prejudice[7]

2008 June 28/29 San Francisco Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Celebration United by Pride, Bound for Equality 1.2 million

[peekint]

So when is our hetero-festival? Why should it be important that I announce to everyone that I prefer to sleep with women? Should I act more "manly" so that it's clear to everyone?

There are issues here that have always confused me. That the gender of the person I prefer to have sex with makes me a different race? Huh? I should have rights if I prefer to have sex with a goat?

First and foremost we are all people. Equal rights for all people, black, brown, white whatever. Who we choose to be in love with male, female, whatever, is our personal business and need not be announced unless drawn into it by conversation.

I've never understood why people need to announce, "oh, by the way, I'm gay". So what?????? Always seems to me those people are just attention seekers.

Flame away.

Not to flame you, huggybear (nor to hug you, bear ), but the hetero-festivals have been going on since the Roman empire died. No, having sex with a goat - in case you are confused about sex or logic, also - has nothing to do with the right to have sex with whatever adult human you wish to have sex with.

I never understood why macho men often feel compelled to announce and boast about their sexual prowess with women. I have seldom heard gay men announce "oh, by the way, I'm gay." So what, indeed. A gay man who often announces that might indeed be as much of an attention seeker as those macho men.

Actually, I think "sex with a goat" was one of the entertainments at those straight Roman festivals. As for me, I was Greek in my past life...

[thaicurious]

i don't have much to add to the good words peekint shared, but just to comment to those who reponded to my prior post:

I don't think the issue is about the importance of pride. I've certainly had my fill of "shame, humiliation & disgrace," and would welcome anything that helps me feel proud.

then perhaps the issue is the importance of pride afterall.

And you think we'll gain equality based on: ???

putting ourselves out there. showing our bravery in the face of oppression & resistance to change so that our friends and families might find it in them to show their support as well. insisting on equal rights. not settling for less. put it on parade if that's what it takes.

Maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud or whatever, but the ability to "scream for beads in Bangkok," doesn't strike me as a moment I would look back upon with pride.

every party's got a pooper that's why we invited you. party poooper, that's you.

It seems many parades actually promote some of the things for which others hold us in contempt. And, especially in Bangkok or Pattaya, the parade participants seem mostly drawn from the sex trade businesses.

never been so i couldn't comment. only to say that i've never either purchased sex or judged those involved. i'm not yet familiar with thai culture outside of what i've read and the thai people i've met stateside. i don't know who makes up the local business establishments there. however, i would not be surprised to see local businesses on parade. as i don't judge the business, sorry, but i do not see the problem.

The "shame, humiliation & disgrace" seems often to come from the belief that we all want to dress up like women or in bizarre costumes, to run around squealing with limp wrists and to try to be as silly as we can. If that is the perception of us held by non-gays, it's not how I want people to think of me, so I don't find any pride in events staged to reinforce those perceptions.

when you are proud of who you are, others can not hurt you with their thoughts, regardless of what they think of you.

Have you ever found yourself in a group of people who are laughing at some gay joke or at the reference to being gay in movies or the silly escapades of gays on TV shows. Does that inspire pride? It seems at least some of these parades simply feed the same amused contempt people hold for us, at best, and provide fodder for people who feel justified in hating us.

but some of it is funny. and yes, you can be proud that you can laugh at yourself. you know what they call the guy who can't laugh at himself: they call him dead of stress at age 65. if you can not learn to laugh at yourself, well, your face might break. and if you get offended any time someone else laughs, they just might break your face for you. i'm not saying that someone's pain is funny, but generally speaking, it's ok to laugh. if someone laughs and you get offended. discuss it. work through the pain. just maybe you too will find it funny (on the other side of serious).

there is no shame in being proud.

[Kaojai]

there is no shame in being proud.

You seem to be talking in circles and, as politicians are found of saying, taking things out of context.

Despite us all being gay, we don't all have to behave or react to life in the same way. My original question had to do with whether or not parades, as they are staged now, are really about pride in that one element of our lives which is common -- being gay. They may indeed be fun. They may have served a completely different purpose in years past. But do they actually inspire pride about being gay now in 2008? And that is a question, not a statement masquerading as a question. Even though I feel little pride in such events, I'm fully prepared to find out many people do.

What I have seen of them, especially in 20 second snippets on CNN, seems to emphasize the silly, gaudy, sexual and somewhat ridiculous aspects of being gay with nothing offered as a counter balance.

but some of it is funny. and yes, you can be proud that you can laugh at yourself. you know what they call the guy who can't laugh at himself: they call him dead of stress at age 65. if you can not learn to laugh at yourself,

I do not need to learn to laugh. I've been doing it for a long time and I usually find humor even where others don't. I'm quite capable of laughing at myself, as I'm sure most gays who survive with their wits intact must do, and I faithfully watch reruns of Will & Grace and find that usually quite funny, as are any number of other references to gays in movies, jokes and on TV.

But endlessly laughing at yourself implies you may be a trifle dim-witted or that you assume that everything about you is a joke. If you must ALWAYS laugh at yourself or encourage others to laugh at you, then that implies a weakness that I'm not prepared to accept. It's as if you're saying that a sure way to find acceptance & tolerance is to always dress up as a clown to draw away attention from some supposed handicap or blemish. I don't need to be accepted or tolerated and especially not if that's the price.

Prejudice exacts a cost from it's victims. Whoever is at the receiving end, whether Blacks, Jews, the Irish, Gays, Women et al have resorted to humor as a defence and to cope and to open doors, all of which is fine. But that doesn't mean that all Blacks want to identify with Amos & Andy or Steppin Fetchit. Not all Jews want to be Woody Allen and not all women want to be dumb blondes. Whatever you may think of Obama and Hillary, Blacks and women can feel proud of them without feeling the need to giggle. I don't particularly care if a gay ever becomes president of the US (I assume most are too intelligent to want to), but if one chooses to run I don't anticipate him campaigning in drag or throwing beads to voters.

I would far rather identify with someone like Senator Barney Frank. He's openly gay and I'm sure he has a well developed sense of humor, but he's also respected for the work he has done. There are scads of gay people who have accomplished a lot. When someone, anyone, thinks of gays I'd like them to think of the beautiful, fun people in the parades AND the accomplished, talented people who have made the world a better, more enjoyable place.

[Kaojai]

But you allow yourself to be defined, or rather embarrassed, by the reactions that a bunch of straight people have for a bunch of gay people that you don't know who are choosing their own way to have a good time.

No more than I want to be defined by a bunch of silly people riding about on floats with whom I do not relate in any way but one.

'Why do you laugh? They're having sanuk, they're not hurting you. Why don't you let them have their fun without laughing at them'. He made me feel quite ashamed of myself.

You seem to think that your behavior is typical. I agree with your friend, but don't see how your behavior becomes "we gays."

We gays spend all our lives whining about the fact that the straight world expects us to behave in a way that suits them but, often, we're no better than they are.

Quite the contrary, my complaint is that now straights are inching towards a more enlightened understanding that we are not side-show freaks and a small group of gays seem intent on perpetuating the image of us as sex obsessed fruits.At this point in my life I really don't care what straights think of me, but when I was younger and had goals that were not 100% sexual, what people thought of me was important if it made accomplishing those goal difficult or impossible.

[thaicurious]

You seem to be talking in circles and, as politicians are found of saying, taking things out of context.

Despite us all being gay, we don't all have to behave or react to life in the same way. My original question had to do with whether or not parades, as they are staged now, are really about pride in that one element of our lives which is common -- being gay. They may indeed be fun. They may have served a completely different purpose in years past. But do they actually inspire pride about being gay now in 2008? And that is a question, not a statement masquerading as a question. Even though I feel little pride in such events, I'm fully prepared to find out many people do.

and you seem to be arguing just for the sake of argument. let me see if i can clarify. it is a pa rade. it's supposed to be fun. get it now? a parade. you really just want to have your cake and to eat it too, don't you? you don't want to attend it; you just want to rain on it.

do they inspire pride? well, here's a question as an answer: have you seen the faces of the people proud to be out in public, to hold hands, to cheer for beads? is it your pride which would deny them that pleasure? or is it your own pain which would deny them their pride.

What I have seen of them, especially in 20 second snippets on CNN, seems to emphasize the silly, gaudy, sexual and somewhat ridiculous aspects of being gay with nothing offered as a counter balance.

because an in depth interview is going to sell cnn? who cares what they show. how about giving the tv viewer a little credit for being able to discern the difference between what he sees on cnn and what he sees in you.

But endlessly laughing at yourself implies you may be a trifle dim-witted or that you assume that everything about you is a joke. If you must ALWAYS laugh at yourself or encourage others to laugh at you, then that implies a weakness that I'm not prepared to accept.

aside from the fact that you're quite crossing the border of rude here, would you prefer parades not be fun? this year in the pride parade the marching band will play only dirges to honor our fallen dead. no beads, no drag queens allowed. we have a reputation to uphold, afterall.

"on the field of battle, the spoken word does not carry far enough; hence the institution of gongs and drums. nor can ordinary objects be seen clearly enough; hence the institution of banners and flags"~~sun tzu, circa 500 bce

Edited July 3, 2008 by thaicurious

[Scott]

I think it's rather simple: Different strokes for different folks.

[thaicurious]

yup, what ever blows yer chaps up.

"on the field of battle, the spoken word does not carry far enough; hence the institution of gongs and drums. nor can ordinary objects be seen clearly enough; hence the institution of banners and flags"~~sun tzu, circa 500 bce

“in fighting discrimination in fields of employment & housing, in fighting oppression and working to garner the same civil & human rights enjoyed by heterosexuals, quiet conversation does not carry far enough; hence the institution of screaming for beads and disco. nor can ordinary pleas for acceptance be seen clearly enough; hence the insititution of drag queens and fags”.~~moon me, circa 2008 ce

[Kaez]

I think Pride events are more important in countries/situations in which homophobia and the closet have a stronger influence than this one. Just about any moment in Bangkok when I can see any persons at all, I can see at least a few relatively obviously gay or lesbian people around. Bangkok people, very generally speaking, don't really seem to need reminding that there are gay people around, or to mind them terribly much when they are.

The situation in the rural areas is probably different- but I don't know if a parade would really do much for the gays living in those areas, either. Getting a higher cohort past a Matthayom 3 education (junior high school) would probably be the best start for everyone concerned.

I've made no secret in the past of my distaste for the so-called Pride events held in Bangkok, which have primarily been promotions of the tourist trade in which the participatory Thai element has historically been very small and hardly representative- comprised largely of Thais euphemistically involved in the nightlife and massage industries. Most 'normal' gay Thais in Bangkok seem to have become pretty liberated without the help of Bangkok "Pride" events.

I think the opposite. I think that in countries where there is more homophobia, gay pride events with gays half dressed and in various costumes leads to more homophobia as it can be quite overwhelming for a strait person to take in, especially if they have never had much exposure to gays. As opposed to just "being" with your partner like you see so many times in down town BKK. When one sees the same sex being intimate (but respectful) in public, one is more inclined to just shug and come to instant terms with them being gay. No big deal really. But the shock factor of some of these "pride" events leave some people no option but to recoil in horror and fear. But, sadly, this is the effect many are going for.....unfortunately.

[Jingthing]

I participated in some of the early historic Pride parades in San Francisco. Back then, it was mostly about politics and a revolution of gay freedom, on the par with the black rights movement and the women's rights movement. Now it is almost all about money, commercial sponsors, and cruising (well nothing wrong with cruising). Its a party. Its hard to be against a good party but hard to see it as very significant either.

To the heteros who object to gays having a big party once a year, I think that is very small of you. Almost all the big parties in the world are dominated by heterosexuals. That is your straight pride day, everyday. Not satisfied? That is sad.

Today there are smaller prides in very homophobic countries. Some of these people are risking their lives participated. Now that has meaning. So, it depends on which area/country these days whether it means anything more than an excuse to party.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

I participated in some of the early historic Pride parades in San Francisco. Back then, it was mostly about politics and a revolution of gay freedom, on the par with the black rights movement and the women's rights movement. Now it is almost all about money, commercial sponsors, and cruising (well nothing wrong with cruising). Its a party. Its hard to be against a good party but hard to see it as very significant either.

To the heteros who object to gays having a big party once a year, I think that is very small of you. Almost all the big parties in the world are dominated by heterosexuals. That is your straight pride day, everyday. Not satisfied? That is sad.

Today there are smaller prides in very homophobic countries. Some of these people are risking their lives participated. Now that has meaning. So, it depends on which area/country these days whether it means anything more than an excuse to party.

I used to live on Clarendon many years ago and would drive through the Castro everyday. My observation is, it was less about freedom, than it was about exibitionism. Living in a ghetto of their own making, rules that might apply elsewhere were ignored. Not unlike Hunters Point in a way. Aside from that, there's no question that the many gay DINKs helped to beautify and regentrify The City but a lot of low/middle income earners were forced out of the city they were born in, in the process.

[peekint]

there is no shame in being proud.

You seem to be talking in circles and, as politicians are found of saying, taking things out of context.

Despite us all being gay, we don't all have to behave or react to life in the same way. My original question had to do with whether or not parades, as they are staged now, are really about pride in that one element of our lives which is common -- being gay. They may indeed be fun. They may have served a completely different purpose in years past. But do they actually inspire pride about being gay now in 2008? And that is a question, not a statement masquerading as a question. Even though I feel little pride in such events, I'm fully prepared to find out many people do.

What I have seen of them, especially in 20 second snippets on CNN, seems to emphasize the silly, gaudy, sexual and somewhat ridiculous aspects of being gay with nothing offered as a counter balance.

It seems to me you are commenting more on CNN than on Gay Pride. Why should they be expected to offer balance? They are an entertainment channel, after all!

Perhaps you should go to one and see for yourself. Of course, the pageantry is what hits your (and CNN's camera) in the eye, but when you see Straight parents marching with their Gay kids, Gay parents marching with their children, firefighters, policmen, politicians, ex-soldiers (in the USA the current ones dare not for fear of prosecution - and I mean prosecution, not persecution), old people, teens, couples and all the different people of every color cheering in the crowd, it's really quite different than snippets on CNN.

[peekint]

I used to live on Clarendon many years ago and would drive through the Castro everyday. My observation is, it was less about freedom, than it was about exibitionism. Living in a ghetto of their own making, rules that might apply elsewhere were ignored. Not unlike Hunters Point in a way. Aside from that, there's no question that the many gay DINKs helped to beautify and regentrify The City but a lot of low/middle income earners were forced out of the city they were born in, in the process.

As a former DINK (Dual Income No Kids) from San Francisco, I think you've got it all wrong.

Yes, we had a ghetto there, and it's been fascinating over the years watching it melt like ice cream on the sidewalk as it has become less necessary to "circle the wagons". And "circle the wagons" we did in those days. We circled the wagons when the police came crashing into the Elephant Walk bar on 18th and Castro breaking windows and heads. We circled the wagons when on Hallowe'en the kids came from the avenues to throw insults, rocks and bottles. We circled the wagons when AIDS started killing us off in droves and no one knew why or how to stop it.

I think your comparison to Hunter's Point is very telling. You suggest that we all moved to the Castro so we could S88K and F88k with impunity while making loads of money by decorating the run down houses of poor suckers who didn't know a valence from a vulva. The parallel with Hunters point, I guess, is that Afro-American folks in the projects choose to ghettoize themselves so they can do drugs and have lots of crime without Honky interfering?

I'm sensing you have a rather unusual world view. Or perhaps, it is way too usual and that's what makes the world the place it is today.

[Jingthing]

The most pride I ever felt as a gay men was when I heard Harvey Milk make a political speech and then I got to meet him, shake his hand, and speak to him for a few moments. I thought this man was the closest we were going to get to a gay Martin Luther King. He had a camera store on Castro Street before he went into grass roots politics. But he was assassinated and now we have rainbow flag coffee cups. Oh well ... Where are our leaders? Queer Eye for the Straight Guy doesn't cut it.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Jingthing

[peekint]

Who we choose to be in love with male, female, whatever, is our personal business and need not be announced unless drawn into it by conversation. Flame away.

Actually I agree with you. I am a lot of things and have accomplished a fair number of things in my life which I would prefer to be used when identifying me. Who I have sex with or the positions we do it in or what turns me on are all personal, of importance to virtually no one and hardly how I want to be defined.

Certainly it makes no difference at all.

That is, of course, until you and your loved one are from different countries and can't live togehter in either one based on your relationship, no matter how long or how commited.

Or you can't get married and have all the rights and responsibilities that come from that (do you really need a list)?

Or you can't get in to the hospital to see your lifelong partner of 35 years as they lay dying because you are not a "relative"

Or some idiot thinks it might be fun to throw a bottle or punch just because you're being to affectionate with your partner (should I start punching straight people when I see them wooing? It makes me sick. Guess you would say I should!)

It seems the distinction is not made by those of us who bother to point out "hey, there's something wrong here", but rather by the ones who wrote the laws and set up the rules counting on us keeping our mouths shut and playing nice and being discrete like we're supposed to...

[jdinasia]

In the news today I saw two references to gay pride events and a minute or two of video coverage from each. Pretty much the same stuff you see from time to time. In one some right-wing skinheads were attacking the participants and in the other it looked like scenes from some grotesque carnival.

Most groups, usually ethnic or racial, that have pride events or pride parades, appear to try to show important people from that group or important accomplishments by members of the group or demonstrate talents of members, even if there may be a light-hearted theme to whole affair.

Whenever I see gay pride events they seem to be made up of half-naked guys and/or people dressed up in freakish costumes with sequins & feathered boas or with an inch or two of make-up smeared on their faces making them look like clowns.

As fun as some of these things may or may not be, do you feel pride in the way you are being identified? If you are gay, do you want others to immediately think of you as being someone who spends his time dressed up like a side-show attraction? Do you think such things, especially if they are advertised as an expression of Gay Pride, positively contribute to a better understanding and acceptance of gays?

Do a bit of research on how the gay movement really got kickstarted ... then try to deny those people their place in Pride. It's the semi-closeted shirt and tie (or dockers and topsiders) crowd that have let us all down by NOT getting out there and being seen.