Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Unsolicited criticism often delivered in a sarcastic and condescending way will not achieve any change, rather the opposite.

It might be good for blowing off steam for the expats, but will often understandably create animosity with the local people, who might actually agree with you, but find it hard to say so openly.

But I still do it, so take that as a yes...

So it is written, and so it shall be.

[manjara]

In the words of Roy Walker, "Say what you see!"

[desi]

Simple poll and a simple question. Should ex-pats be critical of the way Thais choose to do things?

Do those who say 'yes' believe that immigrants in their country should be critical or should they just try and fit in with the host countries laws and ways? Do those who say 'no' believe that it is best to just ignore the bad and focus on the good - after all it's not like our opinion counts for much.

I've never lived in a country where the expats did not criticise the way things worked. Or didn't. And from what I can tell, it's human nature.

Citizens complain about their country. Immigrants complain about their adopted homes. Tourists complain. Expats complain.

Thailand is just the same same along with all the rest.

When I lived in SE Asia for the second time, everyone I knew bitched about how nothing worked the way it should if it were an organised, civilized country, with expats (of course) in charge. Then I moved to Scotland for a year. What an eyeopener. Accountability in the service industry (as well as others) was nonexistent.

Shortly after, I moved my stuff down to England. Hah! Nothing worked. But like Scotland, everything was megga bucks. And like Scotland, seemed most everything had to be done repeatedly to get it right. And a lot of times it was never quite right, but what to do?

So there it went, my memories of the UK being an organised, civilized country, with the west in charge.

So yeah, I'd rather live in a country that makes me happy. Thailand. And yeah, I will insist on my right to complain. But knowing what I know, I don't complain quite as much anymore.

[poshthai]

Moaning and groaning is letting off steam then its forgotten and we move on to another day.

LONG LIVE THAILAND AND THE PEOPLE

[Tafia]

I voted no! Since there are pros and cons in every country who am I to complain? When in Rome do what the Romans do or "get out of dodge." I am here because I CHOOSE to live here, no one is forcing me to and I assume that no one is forcing you either, so for all of you whiners, please tone it down since it reflects (negatively) on the rest of us.

Ditto....We all still have the freedom of choice......We can leave any time we want!!

[NoSpeakIt]

these guys are old and need something to complain about or they will die of boredom.

[mikethevigoman]

And for those who voted "no" will you now remain silent about all the other countries, as well?

we are not guests "in all the other countries"

You are right, and I am not disagreeing. We are not just guests here, either. I just figured that if we are going to be so polite to our Thai neighbors, we could also be polite to our American, German, UK, Australian, etc., neighbors as well. Yet some farang who would wai a phone booth will freely condemn other countries.

Fantastic,. what have you eaten today ?,. you are on form

[PeaceBlondie]

Who among us is saying that everything in Thailand should be as cold as northern Manitoba, as foggy as England, or that there should be a Dairy Queen or Starbucks on every corner? But is the educational system messed up in ways that permanently injure Thailand and the Thais? Is the political system working? Can you trust the police, or the judges? Are the roads killing your loved ones here?

The voting is about 50/50, with many of us voting with lots of exceptions to a simple yes or no.

And of course we know better than to be brutally blunt when we discuss this with Thais. But the first step to solving problems might be admitting that not all is well here.

[RakJungTorlae]

Who among us is saying that everything in Thailand should be as cold as northern Manitoba, as foggy as England, or that there should be a Dairy Queen or Starbucks on every corner? But is the educational system messed up in ways that permanently injure Thailand and the Thais? Is the political system working? Can you trust the police, or the judges? Are the roads killing your loved ones here?

The voting is about 50/50, with many of us voting with lots of exceptions to a simple yes or no.

And of course we know better than to be brutally blunt when we discuss this with Thais. But the first step to solving problems might be admitting that not all is well here.

I had to think about it a lot. 1^st I thought no way. Its there country let them do as they wish. Then I start to think its our money and time so we can have a say in how we are treated and how things should be done. But only things that concern our well being. Immigration, Hospital, your Kids schooling. And so on. Other things that don’t concern westerners should not even go in to a thought in the heads. We can only hope for the best, but eh.

So yeah. same as PB 50/50 seems the only best way to go.

[kat]

Some interesting posts. I am amazed that some people could see things so differently - maybe I shouldn't be. As my old grandmother would say if everybody kept their own front garden clean the world would be a more beautiful place - problem is most people are more interested in what's happening in other people's front gardens. I try and accept the world as I find it as this seriously reduces my level of frustration with life. I try and avoid being critical of Thailand because it has been good to me and I would feel ungrateful doing so. I don't believe that making others share my opinions is vital work. I am no expert on Thai law, economics, or politics so what good would my view be anyway.

Now some people may see not being critical as meaning that person must have had a frontal lobotomy, but I don't think that you need to be very intelligent to voice criticisms.

As others have said, it depends on how and what you do with your criticisms. Critical thinking is not necessarily the same as complaining. And, there are at least a couple of benefits to having a forum where foreigners can come and discuss openly what they cannot do elsewhere, according to their custom or and Thai custom. They can work out some of those questions and frustrations here. The wonderful thing about open discussion is that they can also be challenged, on equal ground.

The example of the frontal lobotomy is not necessarily about intelligence. It is about a radical alteration of someone's thoughts, ideas, reactions, and personality. It is a medical form of social control. You are basically altered until you are empty inside, and reprogrammed, like a robot. I am fine in my own garden, but what happens if a bunch of your neighbors get together to then kill, rape, torture, and take the gardens of other neighbors, simply because they are a different ethnicity? Do you go on watering you plants, as if nothing has happened, or as if its OK? Is it OK? For me it is not, and that is how I want to remain, without a lobotomy.

You either believe freedom of expression is a good thing or you do not.

Making a list of people through history who have believed in freedom of expression and a second list of those who have not is instructive.

Maybe I'm dumb, but I tried to make a list and I quickly got stumped.

Is freedom of expressions such a great thing?

I suppose it would mean the end of mental instituitions, and would quickly empty the prisons.

I am struggling to think of one country where freedon of experssion is total.

Of course it is not total anywhere, and we are talking about degrees. But to what degree? To the degree where journalists, political activists, migrants, and "suspected" criminals are murdered openly by the state, "big" people and associated guns-for-hire, or where dissenters or political leaders are thrown into jail without question, while other "big" people of the state and mafia appropriate the land of starving, stateless peasants, and sell or buy their girl children as sex slaves, while some may think this is an inconvenience to their morning coffee while they water their gardens?

I am not saying you are the latter, but some of us are all too aware of these varying degrees, and are not content by excusing it as karma while we water our gardens. How about the examples of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mugabe, Kim Jong-il, and George H.W. Bush?

It might be good for blowing off steam for the expats, but will often understandably create animosity with the local people, who might actually agree with you, but find it hard to say so openly.

I agree, and therefore cannot understand the efforts at self-censorship of the expat community on an open forum. As with all forms of censorship, it really begs the question of who and what are they trying to protect?

[garro]

Some interesting posts. I am amazed that some people could see things so differently - maybe I shouldn't be. As my old grandmother would say if everybody kept their own front garden clean the world would be a more beautiful place - problem is most people are more interested in what's happening in other people's front gardens. I try and accept the world as I find it as this seriously reduces my level of frustration with life. I try and avoid being critical of Thailand because it has been good to me and I would feel ungrateful doing so. I don't believe that making others share my opinions is vital work. I am no expert on Thai law, economics, or politics so what good would my view be anyway.

Now some people may see not being critical as meaning that person must have had a frontal lobotomy, but I don't think that you need to be very intelligent to voice criticisms.

As others have said, it depends on how and what you do with your criticisms. Critical thinking is not necessarily the same as complaining. And, there are at least a couple of benefits to having a forum where foreigners can come and discuss openly what they cannot do elsewhere, according to their custom or and Thai custom. They can work out some of those questions and frustrations here. The wonderful thing about open discussion is that they can also be challenged, on equal ground.

The example of the frontal lobotomy is not necessarily about intelligence. It is about a radical alteration of someone's thoughts, ideas, reactions, and personality. It is a medical form of social control. You are basically altered until you are empty inside, and reprogrammed, like a robot. I am fine in my own garden, but what happens if a bunch of your neighbors get together to then kill, rape, torture, and take the gardens of other neighbors, simply because they are a different ethnicity? Do you go on watering you plants, as if nothing has happened, or as if its OK? Is it OK? For me it is not, and that is how I want to remain, without a lobotomy.

You either believe freedom of expression is a good thing or you do not.

Making a list of people through history who have believed in freedom of expression and a second list of those who have not is instructive.

Maybe I'm dumb, but I tried to make a list and I quickly got stumped.

Is freedom of expressions such a great thing?

I suppose it would mean the end of mental instituitions, and would quickly empty the prisons.

I am struggling to think of one country where freedon of experssion is total.

Of course it is not total anywhere, and we are talking about degrees. But to what degree? To the degree where journalists, political activists, migrants, and "suspected" criminals are murdered openly by the state, "big" people and associated guns-for-hire, or where dissenters or political leaders are thrown into jail without question, while other "big" people of the state and mafia appropriate the land of starving, stateless peasants, and sell or buy their girl children as sex slaves, while some may think this is an inconvenience to their morning coffee while they water their gardens?

I am not saying you are the latter, but some of us are all too aware of these varying degrees, and are not content by excusing it as karma while we water our gardens. How about the examples of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mugabe, Kim Jong-il, and George H.W. Bush?

It might be good for blowing off steam for the expats, but will often understandably create animosity with the local people, who might actually agree with you, but find it hard to say so openly.

I agree, and therefore cannot understand the efforts at self-censorship of the expat community on an open forum. As with all forms of censorship, it really begs the question of who and what are they trying to protect?

Sorry Kat, but the happiest/nicest people I have met in this life have also been the least critical while the unhappiest/

unpleasant people have been the malcontents. I don't need to ignore murder in the street because I don't see it. I also don't believe that whinging on a social forum is a method of social change - if it was the forum would likely be quickly shut down. If a bunch of my neighbors decided to kill, rape, and torture I would like to think that I would do something more constructive than complain about the things I don't like in Thailand.

It has been my experience that people complain about life in general because they are unhappy with their own life in particular.

Edited July 11, 2008 by garro

[thai thai]

You are either part of the problem...or you are part of the solution...!

[thai thai]

Besides, it's the 'American way'...if we see something in another country that we don't like...it is our obligation to fix it, to change it to our liking. After all, who knows better than us...God Bless America...!

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Spot on, we have some Americans here on the "dark side" in Pattaya, hel_l-bent in their mission to turn the neighbourhood restaurants into American diner heaven (sic), with their particular foods and supersized portions, by "educating" the poor ignorant local owners. Nobody asked the rest of us... Oh well.

Sorry about that off-topic tangent, see we can be critical not just of the locals!

[kmart]

Criticism encourages improvement. Western civilisation (e.g.) made a quantum leap after separation of Church from State, for example. This happened after people rose up against (religious) oppression. Criticism-dissent-upheaval-change.

I understand that all of the things i love about this place would instantly disappear if the things I hate were removed overnight, but the lot of the average Thai person might improve somewhat if they weren't such a bovine, accepting people.

I feel i have the right to criticize anything that affects my standard of living; bank balance; health; freedoms; access to information; etc. My forefathers sacrificed a lot to give me this.

[PeaceBlondie]

garro, it is positively nice to be nice, but what if next month, you realize that all your fine teaching efforts are rendered useless by some unnecessary cultural BS? What if Thai nurses are being trained to do nothing right? If you see the things you gave your life to, twisted by knaves, are you going to just bend over and not get up again? Is reflective, nicely-delivered, constructive criticism always counter-productive? Have we come to the opposite side of the world to be the doormat of the Ministry of Silly Walks? Should the Irish never have revolted against the British, or never even presented their grievances politely? What advances in history were made by just saying mai bpen rai, crap?

Yes, the most unhappy people I know are negative, followed closely by the people who think it is God's will to be taken advantage of by every rogue and scoundrel.

Of course, I am often wrong. Maybe this is the Land of Senseless Submission.

[mikethevigoman]

If only citizens are allowed to vote then its only them that can comment and voice their grievences isnt it ?,. tourists and those of us on renewable visas are only guests here no matter what we think,.this is what a thai would tell us isnt it ? ..we can make comments but as for effecting change i think its best we dont hold our breath,.

[GuestHouse]

It's an age old question - what part does/should an individual play in society?

But we must remember why people came to Thailand in the first place - I suspect 'taking part' was not high on their list.

A place where one has no responsibility, or at least is allowed to believe that one has no responsibiity, is an attractive thing to a particular mindset.

Edited July 12, 2008 by GuestHouse

[garro]

It's an age old question - what part does/should an individual play in society?

But we must remember why people came to Thailand in the first place - I suspect 'taking part' was not high on their list.

A place where one has no responsibility, or at least is allowed to believe that one has no responsibiity, is an attractive thing to a particular mindset.

This is an interesting view, but not one I share. I accept my small part in the scheme things and believe that in my short life I will be most productive, and the best for society, by just trying to improve myself. Others may believe they have no room for self-improvement and that the real problem is outside themselves, but this is not how I see things.

I would like to see how your view of responsibility works in action though - if this indeed is your view? Would you care to give examples of how you are taking your responsibility to work for change in your current location - is it still Saudi Arabia? Or is this not your responsibility? I would hate to think that you weren't equally vocal about the conditions in Saudi because if you weren't it would be hypocrisy. Does Saudi attract people looking for responsibility? Is taking part what draws people to your part of the world?

[garro]

garro, it is positively nice to be nice, but what if next month, you realize that all your fine teaching efforts are rendered useless by some unnecessary cultural BS? What if Thai nurses are being trained to do nothing right? If you see the things you gave your life to, twisted by knaves, are you going to just bend over and not get up again? Is reflective, nicely-delivered, constructive criticism always counter-productive? Have we come to the opposite side of the world to be the doormat of the Ministry of Silly Walks? Should the Irish never have revolted against the British, or never even presented their grievances politely? What advances in history were made by just saying mai bpen rai, crap?

Yes, the most unhappy people I know are negative, followed closely by the people who think it is God's will to be taken advantage of by every rogue and scoundrel.

Of course, I am often wrong. Maybe this is the Land of Senseless Submission.

PB, the way I see it the world is the way it is and I either accept this or be miserable. I have found that when I do try and accept this the world seems a brighter place. I try not to overestimate my part in the grand scheme of things as the world was the way it was for a long time before I came and will likely continue to be the way it is long after I am gone. If I get through life just doing my best for me and those close to me than that will be enough for me. My teenage days of believing I needed to change the world are over. The world wasn't the problem only my attitude to it.

[kat]

Sorry Kat, but the happiest/nicest people I have met in this life have also been the least critical while the unhappiest/

unpleasant people have been the malcontents. I don't need to ignore murder in the street because I don't see it. I also don't believe that whinging on a social forum is a method of social change - if it was the forum would likely be quickly shut down. If a bunch of my neighbors decided to kill, rape, and torture I would like to think that I would do something more constructive than complain about the things I don't like in Thailand.

It has been my experience that people complain about life in general because they are unhappy with their own life in particular.

Well, then I think that about sums it up then. Some of us are content with different degrees and expressions of happiness, and some of us are not. Your definition of happiness could be my version of hel_l, and vice versa. And also, those are the "happiest/nicest" people in your life, not mine; two completely different people, with completely different experiences. And that's fine with me. My direct experience has been that you can effect social change on a forum and in the real world, and at the same time. Forums are shut down all the time for that very reason, and there is plenty off limits here. All social change begins with open and honest discussion, which is why it is the first thing to be outlawed or shunned in every closed society. As for whinging, I don't classify all critical discussion as such, but experience has shown me that humans will find something to be critical about in their lives. This thread is but one example. Some of us simply prefer to whinge about different things.

[kat]

It's an age old question - what part does/should an individual play in society?

But we must remember why people came to Thailand in the first place - I suspect 'taking part' was not high on their list.

A place where one has no responsibility, or at least is allowed to believe that one has no responsibiity, is an attractive thing to a particular mindset.

This is an interesting view, but not one I share. I accept my small part in the scheme things and believe that in my short life I will be most productive, and the best for society, by just trying to improve myself. Others may believe they have no room for self-improvement and that the real problem is outside themselves, but this is not how I see things.

Yes, I admire your quest to improve yourself, and that is a vehicle toward improving society. But, if you are simply concerned with yourself, where exactly is society? Some of us simply don't have the luxury to be that insular or detached, because we feel an obligation to society in the same way that you do for your family. It is not a matter of feeling big or small, but of feeling responsible and of service.

That fact of the matter is that I do know neighbors that have been murdered, raped and tortured, and I have done something about it. I can change my attitude, but that fact will not change unless other's attitudes and actions change. We all have a domino effect on each other, and we are all connected, whether we like it or not. I'd much rather look that in the face and deal with it, than look away.

[Naam]

Some of us simply prefer to whinge about different things.

and some of us are realists, not burdened with a bunch of complexes, and do not need the psychological crutch of whining and complaining

[kat]

A bunch of complexes like what? Would you like to give an example?

[garro]

It's an age old question - what part does/should an individual play in society?

But we must remember why people came to Thailand in the first place - I suspect 'taking part' was not high on their list.

A place where one has no responsibility, or at least is allowed to believe that one has no responsibiity, is an attractive thing to a particular mindset.

This is an interesting view, but not one I share. I accept my small part in the scheme things and believe that in my short life I will be most productive, and the best for society, by just trying to improve myself. Others may believe they have no room for self-improvement and that the real problem is outside themselves, but this is not how I see things.

Yes, I admire your quest to improve yourself, and that is a vehicle toward improving society. But, if you are simply concerned with yourself, where exactly is society? Some of us simply don't have the luxury to be that insular or detached, because we feel an obligation to society in the same way that you do for your family. It is not a matter of feeling big or small, but of feeling responsible and of service.

That fact of the matter is that I do know neighbors that have been murdered, raped and tortured, and I have done something about it. I can change my attitude, but that fact will not change unless other's attitudes and actions change. We all have a domino effect on each other, and we are all connected, whether we like it or not. I'd much rather look that in the face and deal with it, than look away.

Good luck to you on your quest to fix the world. I will continue on my quest to look after me and those around me.

[Naam]

A bunch of complexes like what? Would you like to give an example?

you are a member of Thaivisa since 2004. i assume you didn't post 4000 times without reading most of the topics. if you don't know what i mean any explanation from my side is a waste of time

[kat]

Good luck to you on your quest to fix the world. I will continue on my quest to look after me and those around me.

Thank you, but I'm not out to "fix the world." I am also looking after my own and those around me, I just apparently go about it differently than you. In your quest to self improvement, I would suggest that you first make a sincere attempt to understand those people who are not "around you" before attempting to minimize, simplify or reduce them for your convenience. Reality really is a lot more complex.

[kat]

A bunch of complexes like what? Would you like to give an example?

you are a member of Thaivisa since 2004. i assume you didn't post 4000 times without reading most of the topics. if you don't know what i mean any explanation from my side is a waste of time

Oh, OK, Naam, I think I get the picture now. I thought you were directing it to an immediate discussion with me, but I know what you mean.

[geriatrickid]

PB, the way I see it the world is the way it is and I either accept this or be miserable. I have found that when I do try and accept this the world seems a brighter place. I try not to overestimate my part in the grand scheme of things as the world was the way it was for a long time before I came and will likely continue to be the way it is long after I am gone. If I get through life just doing my best for me and those close to me than that will be enough for me. My teenage days of believing I needed to change the world are over. The world wasn't the problem only my attitude to it.

Sort of an insular selfish view if read as written. However, if put in the context of your views expressed elsewhere, are you trying to say, that sometimes its best that we be content with what we have? Not a bad position except that if there weren't some dreamers, as much as they annoy me, we would never have progressed as a society. You'll certainly have less stress in the short term, but you I read it as sort of a surrender to the environment. If cocooning is your adaptation for survival, then you are in fine company with other organisms. For others, they must adapt in other ways. Speaking out is cathartic, therapeutic for them.

Your historic interpretation was fine for the world during certain eras, but we are in the era of rapid change and speaking out can have a significant impact. It wasn't too long ago that pesticides were used abundantly without control wreaking havoc on humans. In a few short decades that attitude changed because people spoke out.

No to criticize you, because your position works for you and makes you happy.Happy people are usually more productive and beneficial to society than unhappy people. However, such a strategy can also create the burden of frustration so that one day it erupts. In any case,I'd rather you for a neighbour than a chronic complainer at least then we could iron out differences peacefully.

[garro]

Good luck to you on your quest to fix the world. I will continue on my quest to look after me and those around me.

Thank you, but I'm not out to "fix the world." I am also looking after my own and those around me, I just apparently go about it differently than you. In your quest to self improvement, I would suggest that you first make a sincere attempt to understand those people who are not "around you" before attempting to minimize, simplify or reduce them for your convenience. Reality really is a lot more complex.

Thank you for the suggestion but understanding those around me is challenging enough without the need to understand those not around me. My reality is less complex that way.

Edited July 12, 2008 by garro