Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand

[PeaceBlondie]

garro, I guess you did not come to sobriety through AA, but one of their slogans suggests that we ask our higher power for courage to change the things we can change. I probably do not understand your position. It appears you would accept injustice, tyranny, disease, and oppression - maybe even embrace them grateefully. But you do not.

In my novel, a spoiled brat goes to deepest Mexico at age 21, and one speech that he gives there eventually changes the world, including Thailand. You may say I'm a dreamer.

[kat]

Good luck to you on your quest to fix the world. I will continue on my quest to look after me and those around me.

Thank you, but I'm not out to "fix the world." I am also looking after my own and those around me, I just apparently go about it differently than you. In your quest to self improvement, I would suggest that you first make a sincere attempt to understand those people who are not "around you" before attempting to minimize, simplify or reduce them for your convenience. Reality really is a lot more complex.

Thank you for the suggestion but understanding those around me is challenging enough without the need to understand those not around me. My reality is less complex that way.

Understood Garro. Thanks for your refreshingly honest answer. I can definitely understand it.

[kat]

You may say I'm a dreamer.

... but I'm not the only one.

[garro]

PB, the way I see it the world is the way it is and I either accept this or be miserable. I have found that when I do try and accept this the world seems a brighter place. I try not to overestimate my part in the grand scheme of things as the world was the way it was for a long time before I came and will likely continue to be the way it is long after I am gone. If I get through life just doing my best for me and those close to me than that will be enough for me. My teenage days of believing I needed to change the world are over. The world wasn't the problem only my attitude to it.

Sort of an insular selfish view if read as written. However, if put in the context of your views expressed elsewhere, are you trying to say, that sometimes its best that we be content with what we have? Not a bad position except that if there weren't some dreamers, as much as they annoy me, we would never have progressed as a society. You'll certainly have less stress in the short term, but you I read it as sort of a surrender to the environment. If cocooning is your adaptation for survival, then you are in fine company with other organisms. For others, they must adapt in other ways. Speaking out is cathartic, therapeutic for them.

Your historic interpretation was fine for the world during certain eras, but we are in the era of rapid change and speaking out can have a significant impact. It wasn't too long ago that pesticides were used abundantly without control wreaking havoc on humans. In a few short decades that attitude changed because people spoke out.

No to criticize you, because your position works for you and makes you happy.Happy people are usually more productive and beneficial to society than unhappy people. However, such a strategy can also create the burden of frustration so that one day it erupts. In any case,I'd rather you for a neighbour than a chronic complainer at least then we could iron out differences peacefully.

Maybe my view is selfish, it doesn't really feel that way though. I try and deal with what is put on my plate and not on other people's plates. I didn't come to Thailand to change the country, but I stayed here because it was the right place for me at the time. I have made a life here with the understanding that while it is not perfect I have accepted it for what it is.

I have found that many people who complain are doing so because they are often just miserable about their own life. They look at excuses in the outside world to explain the misery they feel inside. My policy is that it is far easier to change things inside ourselves than it is the world. It is also notable that many of the biggest complainers are the ones who contribute the least.

My view on this subject is that Thailand receives far too much unfair criticism from those who have chosen to live here. Mind you, many of the critics don't even live in Thailand. The internet is an amazing thing but it also means that both good and bad information is abundant. I am sure if you searched the internet for things wrong with Thailand there would be more than a few links to this forum.

[garro]

garro, I guess you did not come to sobriety through AA, but one of their slogans suggests that we ask our higher power for courage to change the things we can change. I probably do not understand your position. It appears you would accept injustice, tyranny, disease, and oppression - maybe even embrace them grateefully. But you do not.

In my novel, a spoiled brat goes to deepest Mexico at age 21, and one speech that he gives there eventually changes the world, including Thailand. You may say I'm a dreamer.

I believe the saying that you are referring to actually says;

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

I do not know about the God bit, but I certainly embrace the sentiment.

Edited July 12, 2008 by garro

[Maigo6]

Edited July 12, 2008 by Maigo6

[GuestHouse]

It's an age old question - what part does/should an individual play in society?

But we must remember why people came to Thailand in the first place - I suspect 'taking part' was not high on their list.

A place where one has no responsibility, or at least is allowed to believe that one has no responsibiity, is an attractive thing to a particular mindset.

This is an interesting view, but not one I share. I accept my small part in the scheme things and believe that in my short life I will be most productive, and the best for society, by just trying to improve myself. Others may believe they have no room for self-improvement and that the real problem is outside themselves, but this is not how I see things.

I would like to see how your view of responsibility works in action though - if this indeed is your view? Would you care to give examples of how you are taking your responsibility to work for change in your current location - is it still Saudi Arabia? Or is this not your responsibility? I would hate to think that you weren't equally vocal about the conditions in Saudi because if you weren't it would be hypocrisy. Does Saudi attract people looking for responsibility? Is taking part what draws people to your part of the world?

The view was first expressed by Greek Philosphers - notibly Aristotle.

Contribution in Saudi Arabia - Well I've run two fund raising events to raise funds for the local hospital - Will that do or do you want me to meet your definition of what is an acceptable contribution, despite not believing you yourself need make any contribution beyound 'improving your own life'.

And may I ask - Is there any point at which an individual improving his own life contradicts with the good of wider society? - And the flipside to that - Is there any argument to say that contributing towards the good of wider society improves the life of the individual?

[garro]

It's an age old question - what part does/should an individual play in society?

But we must remember why people came to Thailand in the first place - I suspect 'taking part' was not high on their list.

A place where one has no responsibility, or at least is allowed to believe that one has no responsibiity, is an attractive thing to a particular mindset.

This is an interesting view, but not one I share. I accept my small part in the scheme things and believe that in my short life I will be most productive, and the best for society, by just trying to improve myself. Others may believe they have no room for self-improvement and that the real problem is outside themselves, but this is not how I see things.

I would like to see how your view of responsibility works in action though - if this indeed is your view? Would you care to give examples of how you are taking your responsibility to work for change in your current location - is it still Saudi Arabia? Or is this not your responsibility? I would hate to think that you weren't equally vocal about the conditions in Saudi because if you weren't it would be hypocrisy. Does Saudi attract people looking for responsibility? Is taking part what draws people to your part of the world?

The view was first expressed by Greek Philosphers - notibly Aristotle.

Contribution in Saudi Arabia - Well I've run two fund raising events to raise funds for the local hospital - Will that do or do you want me to meet your definition of what is an acceptable contribution, despite not believing you yourself need make any contribution beyound 'improving your own life'.

And may I ask - Is there any point at which an individual improving his own life contradicts with the good of wider society? - And the flipside to that - Is there any argument to say that contributing towards the good of wider society improves the life of the individual?

Ah, so your contribution involved the local community, this is exactly the type of contribution I would advocate. It seems a far more noble effort than criticising a country on web forums. I worked in a hospital in Saudi, and I am sure your contribution is helpful - despite the fact that it has a far richer health service than say most European countries.

Yes, as I have said previously in this thread I do believe in helping those around me. I have done this frequently throughout my life in whatever humble way I could. I stopped trying to change the world and just decided to focus on me and those in my vicinity. I leave the big issues to those on the web forums to sort out.

Edited July 12, 2008 by garro

[GuestHouse]

I worked in a hospital in Saudi, and I am sure your contribution is helpful - despite the fact that it has a far richer health service than say most European countries

We made our donations to a local hospital that services the numerous Third Country Nationals in the area - Not, I suspect, the kind of place you were working in.

--

That you personally advocate 'giving help directly/locally' has no bearing on any argument that individuals should/should not get involved in larger issues - even if the individual is a foreigner.

You don't want to get involved - Upto You.

Someone else wants to get involved - Upto them.

Though I doubt somehow that, for example, were the complaints/lobbying or efforts of foreigners to improve the rights of foreigners in Thailand, you'd be unhappy with the improvement.

Now how does that go - If you don't want to help -Then get out of the way!

[garro]

I worked in a hospital in Saudi, and I am sure your contribution is helpful - despite the fact that it has a far richer health service than say most European countries

We made our donations to a local hospital that services the numerous Third Country Nationals in the area - Not, I suspect, the kind of place you were working in.

--

That you personally advocate 'giving help directly/locally' has no bearing on any argument that individuals should/should not get involved in larger issues - even if the individual is a foreigner.

You don't want to get involved - Upto You.

Someone else wants to get involved - Upto them.

Though I doubt somehow that, for example, were the complaints/lobbying or efforts of foreigners to improve the rights of foreigners in Thailand, you'd be unhappy with the improvement.

Now how does that go - If you don't want to help -Then get out of the way!

I was never in your way.

[jbowman1993]

Right to criticize? Depends. Is it constructive? Does it come from a place of wanting to identify a problem for the sake of understanding it and trying to make it better in some way? Or is it identified for the purpose of denigrating or disrespecting a person, or culture? I suspect that most criticism on TV is the later, couched in the former.

[Tyke]

Poll is too black and white and I don't understand the "so critical" bit but I answered yes but would add a rider that it is a qualified yes.

There is little doubt that Thailand is a great place to live and better than our home countries in many respects. However there is no doubt that there are many things done in Thailand that could be done better and not necessarily how they are done back in our home countries.

Should we feel free to point those issues out and suggest ways they could be improved? Yes, provided it is constructive criticism, of course we should otherwise we are rejecting the most important part of our education that being an open and critical mind.

If you want to be a dumb "follow the herd" animal and merely exist in the country without at least trying to point out where improvements can be made you are well on the way to mindless oblivion.

However there is a fine line between criticism and endless whinging and defining that line is the most difficult part of living in Thailand, or any other foriegn country for that matter. If you feel you should criticise something at least have a viable alternative in mind and be prepared for that to be criticised by others in turn.

It might be easier for me being a design engineer. One of the first lessons we learn is that there is always more than one way to achieve the end result and we have to learn to accept criticism. Many times we come up with a design that's the best thing since sliced bread only for somebody to glance at it and say something like "you haven't considered the torsional load component in the diagonal brace" and it's back to the drawing board.

I agree with a lot of this. Firstly, the question is loaded. Secondly, I often cringe at people who say 'if you don't like it, then leave" or words to that effect. These people often have a very paternalistic attitude towards Thais as if they think they are incapable of changing, or even doing bad things. They seem to think Thailand is some magical Disneyland full of happy garden gnomes - it's just perfect (for them that is).

[garro]

Right to criticize? Depends. Is it constructive? Does it come from a place of wanting to identify a problem for the sake of understanding it and trying to make it better in some way? Or is it identified for the purpose of denigrating or disrespecting a person, or culture? I suspect that most criticism on TV is the later, couched in the former.

The problem is that a lot of people probably do fool themselves that all these complaints and criticism about Thailand and the Thai people are noble. You read this site and count the number of times Thai people are referred to as lazy, corrupt, careless, lacking compassion, or otherwise evil each day - it is appalling. The apologists for this type of behaviour can say to themselves that they are trying to improve Thailand or are just letting off steam but I see it as ingratitude and disrespect.

[PeaceBlondie]

The great social reforms of the 19th and 20th century - working conditions for labourers, the anti-slavery movement, universal suffrage, major independence movements, modern nursing, mental health reform, full emancipation of the American Negro - were accomplished by brave civil activists (many of them spiritual and pacifists) who dared to challenge the status quo. Did every improvement in Thailand occur because the controllers of Siam and Thailand acted out of the goodness of their hearts, with no influence from foreigners?

[GuestHouse]

You read this site and count the number of times Thai people are referred to as lazy, corrupt, careless, lacking compassion, or otherwise evil each day - it is appalling. The apologists for this type of behaviour can say to themselves that they are trying to improve Thailand or are just letting off steam but I see it as ingratitude and disrespect.

You mean we should be grateful when some lazy Thai government official fails to do his job or some corrupt cop wants paying because he's caught us driving under the influence of a wallet full of money?

[meom]

Did every improvement in Thailand occur because the controllers of Siam and Thailand acted out of the goodness of their hearts, with no influence from foreigners?

Aren't the controllers of Siam and Thailand mostly Chinese (foreigners)?

[IMA_FARANG]

Simple poll and a simple question. Should ex-pats be critical of the way Thais choose to do things?

Do those who say 'yes' believe that immigrants in their country should be critical or should they just try and fit in with the host countries laws and ways? Do those who say 'no' believe that it is best to just ignore the bad and focus on the good - after all it's not like our opinion counts for much.

Actually a tough question to answer. I voted No, simply because I see a lot of criticism in this forum by people who obviously haven't been around enough in Thailand to understand they are not still in the U.K., U.S.A., or whatever. And many of the criticisims seem not too understand that this is Thailand, and Thais, for right or wrong, have their owb culture. just because soi Nana isn't Liecester Square doesn't make it "inferior", just different.

Secondly I've been known to criticise those whose knowledge of Thailand and Thai culture is limited to beer bars and massage parlors. It's perturbing to see a criticisim of some Thai characteristic by a person who has no children, wife/partner,etc. in Thailand. They do nor know what the life of an average Thai worker is like, and their criticisim is often based on a biased realitively-wealthy Farang perspective. That kind of people just has no real idea of what life is like for millions of hard-working Thais.

However, I'm always ready to let people make honest criticisims...just as long as they have the experience in Thailand to actually know what they are talking about.

All in all, I'm still goimg for No.

[garro]

You read this site and count the number of times Thai people are referred to as lazy, corrupt, careless, lacking compassion, or otherwise evil each day - it is appalling. The apologists for this type of behaviour can say to themselves that they are trying to improve Thailand or are just letting off steam but I see it as ingratitude and disrespect.

You mean we should be grateful when some lazy Thai government official fails to do his job or some corrupt cop wants paying because he's caught us driving under the influence of a wallet full of money?

So a few bent coppers means that the people of Thailand are lazy, corrupt, careless, lacking compassion, or otherwise evil.

[Jingthing]

Thailand or are just letting off steam but I see it as ingratitude and disrespect.

Gratitude for what? A visa stamp? Being ($$$ barely $$$) tolerated?

I can understand a landed immigrant being grateful, but almost all of us are well short of that.

My response to the question is if you feel it in your heart to be critical, be critical. If you don't, don't. We are not a great farang monolith. We are individuals who bring our own unique past experiences to our own unique experiences here in our new environment. Respond in any way that feels natural ... to you.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[garro]

The great social reforms of the 19th and 20th century - working conditions for labourers, the anti-slavery movement, universal suffrage, major independence movements, modern nursing, mental health reform, full emancipation of the American Negro - were accomplished by brave civil activists (many of them spiritual and pacifists) who dared to challenge the status quo. Did every improvement in Thailand occur because the controllers of Siam and Thailand acted out of the goodness of their hearts, with no influence from foreigners?

Yes and Nazism, Fascism, Stalinism, Kymer Nationaism, and many, many, more horrible events throughout history came about through criticism of the current regime. I'm sorry I don't want to change the world.

[IMA_FARANG]

Did every improvement in Thailand occur because the controllers of Siam and Thailand acted out of the goodness of their hearts, with no influence from foreigners?

Aren't the controllers of Siam and Thailand mostly Chinese (foreigners)?

Now that's a silly thing to say. Yes there are many Chinese families in Thailand. Many of them have been in Thailand as long or longer than most Europeans have. Most of them speak fluent Thai, and went to Thai schools. Often they are 3rd or 4th generation in Thailand. I don't know how they can be more Thai.

[Samuian]

I say if our money is good enough for the govt to take for taxes then we should have the right to our say.

...and Farang Prices, Fees, and... ah' well I didn't want to be critical... "mai pen rai" said the guy and stepped away from the dead body to get his dinner...

I don';t think ti should be our right, but common sense to be welcome to express whatever felleings, thoughts are bothering you - why not?

after all it doesn't hurt, if so, only nationalistic, patriotic feelings... the days of the "overlord" are over - FREEDOM of the MEDIA, of EXPRESSION and FREEDOM of SPEECH!

Edited July 12, 2008 by Samuian

[garro]

I say if our money is good enough for the govt to take for taxes then we should have the right to our say.

...and Farang Prices, Fees, and... ah' well I didn't want to be critical... "mai pen rai" said the guy and stepped away from the dead body to get his dinner...

I don';t think ti should be our right, but common sense to be welcome to express whatever felleings, thoughts are bothering you - why not?

after all it doesn't hurt, if so, only nationalistic, patriotic feelings... the days of the "overlord" are over - FREEDOM of the MEDIA, of EXPRESSION and FREEDOM of SPEECH!

I expect you will be promoting this freedom of expression for jihadists, holocaust deniers, Nazis, and other assorted hate mongers or will it just be for those who say things you agree with?

[garro]

race:a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group

racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Is that what a lot of this is really about?

Edited July 12, 2008 by garro

[meom]

Did every improvement in Thailand occur because the controllers of Siam and Thailand acted out of the goodness of their hearts, with no influence from foreigners?

Aren't the controllers of Siam and Thailand mostly Chinese (foreigners)?

Now that's a silly thing to say. Yes there are many Chinese families in Thailand. Many of them have been in Thailand as long or longer than most Europeans have. Most of them speak fluent Thai, and went to Thai schools. Often they are 3rd or 4th generation in Thailand. I don't know how they can be more Thai.

Point taken Ima, it wasn't really a smart comment

[Samuian]

I say if our money is good enough for the govt to take for taxes then we should have the right to our say.

...and Farang Prices, Fees, and... ah' well I didn't want to be critical... "mai pen rai" said the guy and stepped away from the dead body to get his dinner...

I don';t think ti should be our right, but common sense to be welcome to express whatever felleings, thoughts are bothering you - why not?

after all it doesn't hurt, if so, only nationalistic, patriotic feelings... the days of the "overlord" are over - FREEDOM of the MEDIA, of EXPRESSION and FREEDOM of SPEECH!

I expect you will be promoting this freedom of expression for jihadists, holocaust deniers, Nazis, and other assorted hate mongers or will it just be for those who say things you agree with?

Well you saw what they do if you/we/the world doesn't?

Why not?

The Iranian President shouts his anti "Zionist" Formula in the world, North-Korean evil Puppet master does his orgy... why not - people who are fit enough understand to devide good from evil!

No?

If F.e. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would have said this in a country like Germany he would have to face the consequences - because it is forbidden by law to "deny the holocaust" and things like this... nbut personally I believe that certain things need a reform - but however - I surely think that healthy criticism is nothing wrong... those who take it wrong - need maybe help!

Some cases might have gone beyond repair - but this is not a particular Thai-Phenomena - it's a world wide one!

[garro]

I say if our money is good enough for the govt to take for taxes then we should have the right to our say.

...and Farang Prices, Fees, and... ah' well I didn't want to be critical... "mai pen rai" said the guy and stepped away from the dead body to get his dinner...

I don';t think ti should be our right, but common sense to be welcome to express whatever felleings, thoughts are bothering you - why not?

after all it doesn't hurt, if so, only nationalistic, patriotic feelings... the days of the "overlord" are over - FREEDOM of the MEDIA, of EXPRESSION and FREEDOM of SPEECH!

I expect you will be promoting this freedom of expression for jihadists, holocaust deniers, Nazis, and other assorted hate mongers or will it just be for those who say things you agree with?

Well you saw what they do if you/we/the world doesn't?

Why not?

The Iranian President shouts his anti "Zionist" Formula in the world, North-Korean evil Puppet master does his orgy... why not - people who are fit enough understand to devide good from evil!

No?

If F.e. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would have said this in a country like Germany he would have to face the consequences - because it is forbidden by law to "deny the holocaust" and things like this... nbut personally I believe that certain things need a reform - but however - I surely think that healthy criticism is nothing wrong... those who take it wrong - need maybe help!

Some cases might have gone beyond repair - but this is not a particular Thai-Phenomena - it's a world wide one!

So the constant complaints that Thais are corrupt, uncaring, untrustworthy, selfish, lazy, and stupid, that you hear daily on this forum, should be considered as healthy criticism?

[jumnien]

If listening to people complain all the time arouses a sense of anger or resentment or judgement in oneself, I suppose one could merely stop listening to the complaints. Change channels. Switch to another forum for a while. It is not worth becoming agitated because of others lack of acceptance for the way things really are. In your pursuit to see things clearly, as they really are, perhaps you would be wise to let most other people be and just concentrate on your family and mentors and a few friends. Just a thought. I admire your path.

[garro]

If listening to people complain all the time arouses a sense of anger or resentment or judgement in oneself, I suppose one could merely stop listening to the complaints. Change channels. Switch to another forum for a while. It is not worth becoming agitated because of others lack of acceptance for the way things really are. In your pursuit to see things clearly, as they really are, perhaps you would be wise to let most other people be and just concentrate on your family and mentors and a few friends. Just a thought. I admire your path.

Sunrise, this thread is not an attempt to change anybody. It is just a question. I do find the constant belittling of Thai people a bit annoying, but I'm a big boy and have needed to deal with worse. I don't resent the malcontents so much as I'm curious about their motivations. Mind you, when I walk away from the computer I will find something more important to focus on. Good luck with your path too. As your friends would say; "And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation--some fact of my life --unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."

Edited July 12, 2008 by garro

[twschw]

Some people here are making way to much of this thread. Criticism is fine but all this bitching and moanig about the Thai populace is tiresome. Who the he-l cares if Thais pick their noses or if young shopgirls in BKK are bitchy. Those are the topics garro is referring to, correct me if I am wrong garro.