Thai Troops Enter Disputed Territory On Thai-cambodian Border

[jimbob]

Thailand has long claimed the area as sovereign to Thailand hence the invasion and occupation in the 1950s/60s.

Yes, but it kept diplomatic after the ICJ ruling that gave the temple to Cambodians.

It's always called disputed or overlapping territories, not as a land under Thai sovereignty.

The Thai Armed Forces that entered and occupied the pagoda in the previously neutral territory stated quite clearly that this land was Thai.

Entering and occupying a pagoda against the wishes of Buddhist monks is as far from diplomacy as I can imagine!

[Plus]

It's not Cambodian heritage, it's Khmer heritage.

It looks like Cambodians want to expand their modern day country to the size of the old Khmer Empire.

[Plus]

Thailand has long claimed the area as sovereign to Thailand hence the invasion and occupation in the 1950s/60s.

Yes, but it kept diplomatic after the ICJ ruling that gave the temple to Cambodians.

It's always called disputed or overlapping territories, not as a land under Thai sovereignty.

The Thai Armed Forces that entered and occupied the pagoda in the previously neutral territory stated quite clearly that this land was Thai.

Entering and occupying a pagoda against the wishes of Buddhist monks is as far from diplomacy as I can imagine!

Which pagoda? They one that they built on the disputed land after the ICJ ruling? Thailand didn't protest when Cambodia encroached on it as if it was their own, that's being neighbourly and diplomatic, but now you argue that since you build the pagoda, Thais have no right to go there.

It sounds like dogs marking territory, really.

Besides, it happened after unilateral Unesco listing against Thai objections, dimplomacy went out of the window after Cambodians did that.

[jimbob]

It's not Cambodian heritage, it's Khmer heritage.

It looks like Cambodians want to expand their modern day country to the size of the old Khmer Empire.

Modern day Cambodia is universally excepted as the heir to the Angkorian Empire everywhere in the world except Thailand.

Thailand has consistently pushed, invaded, expropriated and stolen Cambodian land over the last few centuries so your accusation about rebuilding the Khmer empire is so far off it is ludicrous.

[Plus]

Modern day Cambodia is universally excepted as the heir to the Angkorian Empire

Descendants, jimbob, not heir.

[jimbob]

Which pagoda? They one that they built on the disputed land after the ICJ ruling? Thailand didn't protest when Cambodia encroached on it as if it was their own, that's being neighbourly and diplomatic, but now you argue that since you build the pagoda, Thais have no right to go there.

I believe that Thai soldiers invading and occupying a Buddhist pagoda is outrageous.

Imagine if Cambodian soldiers invaded a pagoda built by Thai monks against their wishes - the Thai people would be in uproar.

That is how Cambodian's feel about Thai actions in the last few months.

The Thai actions have not been diplomatic, they have been disgraceful.

[jimbob]

Modern day Cambodia is universally excepted as the heir to the Angkorian Empire

Descendants, jimbob, not heir.

They are both descendants and righful heirs.

It is Cambodia's heritage, they are the heirs to the Khmer and Angkorian past.

This is recognised by every country in the world except Thailand.

[Plus]

Does this "righful heir" status mean Cambodians now claim all of Southern Isan as their own?

[jimbob]

I understand that Cambodia is only interested in Thailand abiding by previous treaties and acting as a willing partner in final border negotations.

Unfortunately Thailand is not able to do so at the moment due to domestic political problems.

[Plus]

What willing partner? After Cambodia went on and listed the temple over Thai objections?

And the crux of those objections was that Cambodia denigraded the historical and cultural value of ancient Khmer land that happens to be in present day Thailand now.

At the same time they claim sovereignty over this "useless" land.

[jimbob]

Thailand supported the current UNESCO listing bid up to the last minute when Noppodon changed his mind and made a last minute objection to the outrage of everybody involved.

As UNESCO stated Cambodia has been extremely consistent in its approach while Thailand has not.

Consistency and reliability are important in international affairs.

[animatic]

Just brainstorming. I am not encouraging a war here.

What is the likelyhood of Thailand winning if Thailand started a war in Khmer. I mean totally take over the country. Upon success, take Laos, than Vietnam, so that we have access to South China Sea and a land trading route with Chine. Hainan island too, to become Phuket II.

Upon success in Indochina (plus Hainan Island), Rename ourself the United Kingdom of Great Indochina and the Hainan Isle (sound familiar). This new country should be powerful enough to start planning for an empire that the sun never sat (sound familiar again?).

Next target will be Malaysia & Singapore. No force needed. We can just declare them as an autonomous region just Tibet to China. Finally, the big push to invade Burma. This will be difficult, because from historical statistic, we came out loosing most of the time.

If we loose, the Burmese will control the collective land mass, from India Eastward to the South China sea (I'm sure Bangladesh will be absorbed into India for protection). I don't know what they will call it. Perhaps change the name again, from Myanmar to Suvarṇabhumī (the goldern land).

Sri Lanka can be annexed to due to their faith. However separatis in the malaysia penisular will continue to stir up chronic trouble, eith wanting independent or alliance with Indonesia.

To make sure the sun never set, ship shall sail to Bali, HK, Guam, Hawaii, Easter Island, Bahamas, Aruba, Tristan da Cunha, Reunion to colonize them and turn them to Buddhism.

Like in ancient China, the ruler of this Kingdom will be honored as the greatest Emperor ever that united Suvarṇabhumī.

Am I nut or what?

Toss a coin!

Edited September 18, 2008 by animatic

[AlKing]

Just look at the temple and tell something straight from your heart. Does it look "Khmer" (e.g. Angkor Wat) or "Thai" (e.g. Wat Phra Kaew) to you?

[Plus]

Thailand supported the current UNESCO listing bid up to the last minute when Noppodon changed his mind...

Checked the earlier pages in this thread.

Thailand objected to the listing about a year ago, when Cambodians brought up a theory of five temples on the hills to prove that the main entrance to the temples and the grand staircase have any historical value.

Since then Thailand staged a meeting walkout and refused to negotiate. Noppadon's agreement was a temporary aberration to Thailand's long term stand on the issue.

[jimbob]

Noppadon's agreement was a temporary aberration to Thailand's long term stand on the issue.

Yes, I agree it was this inconsistency that was the clincher for UNESCO.

[sriracha john]

Supreme Commander not concerned over negotiations on Ta Khwai Temple

Supreme Commander Gen.Boonsrang Niempradit said he does not believe that the Thai-Cambodia dispute over border demarcation at Ta Khwai Temple will escalate like that of Preah Vihear.

The Supreme Commander said it is possible that the country’s political instability has prompted the neighboring country to claim rights over Ta Khwai Temple.

He suggested that negotiations between the two countries will help ease the Thai-Cambodian row over the border line at the temple area.

General Boonsrang said further that the best way to resolve the conflict is to strengthen the country and prevent social divisions. He also expressed his confidence that the Thai-Cambodian Joint Border Committee and relevant officials can successfully negotiate on the matter.

- ThaiNews / 2008-09-18

[sjaak327]

Just look at the temple and tell something straight from your heart. Does it look "Khmer" (e.g. Angkor Wat) or "Thai" (e.g. Wat Phra Kaew) to you?

You *could* say that the main object inside that temple was stolen from the Lao, the same applies to large parts of Issaan.

[sjaak327]

Thailand supported the current UNESCO listing bid up to the last minute when Noppodon changed his mind...

Checked the earlier pages in this thread.

Thailand objected to the listing about a year ago, when Cambodians brought up a theory of five temples on the hills to prove that the main entrance to the temples and the grand staircase have any historical value.

Since then Thailand staged a meeting walkout and refused to negotiate. Noppadon's agreement was a temporary aberration to Thailand's long term stand on the issue.

Yes they indeed did, then Noppadon did the only right and smart thing to do. (maybe not correctly, but that's a technicality)

The discussion about the temple itself has ended some 40 years ago. I still believe that if Thailand would play ball, both countries could reap the profit of the temple's unesco listing. Now I doubt Thailand will ever make a penny out of the temple.

Som Nam Na.

[wrestler7902002]

Interesting article from Cambodian Information Center website concerning Preah Vihear:

http://www.cambodia.org/Preah_Vihear/?hist...+Khmer+Heritage

Edited September 18, 2008 by wrestler7902002

[AlKing]

Just look at the temple and tell me something straight from your heart. Does it look "Khmer" (e.g. Angkor Wat) or "Thai" (e.g. Wat Phra Kaew) to you?

You *could* say that the main object inside that temple was stolen from the Lao, the same applies to large parts of Issaan.

No wonder. There was an empty temple in Laos. They told me that it is also called "Wat Phra Kaew". However there was no Phra Kaew inside. Now I see why.

[Plus]

Cambodian Information Center, cambodia.org - who are these rude and uncultured people?

They've got absolutely no manners for an officially sounding body like that.

"The Thai people have such a twisted mind. Believing in this twisted thesis is like believing that a bullet firing from a gun can be curved around a corner. The Thais are not only satisfied to steal everything that are precious to Khmers and then claimed them to be their own, such as ..."

[jimbob]

Cambodian Information Center, cambodia.org - who are these rude and uncultured people?

Rude and uncultured?

They must be owned by the Manager Group.

[jimbob]

Here is the bulk of the text that gives better context to the cut and paste from Plus.

It is quite accurate and written by a Cambodian who is clearly angry that the attitude of his neighbouring country is to deny his cultural and ancestoral heritage:

THE THAI TWISTED THESIS OF THEIR ORIGIN

There are some Thais in the academic, the press, and the media who fantasize in their justification of Preah Vihear belonging to Thailand by advancing a twisted thesis claiming that Khmer is not the same as Khorm (note: the Thai used to call Khmer as either Khamin or Khorm). They say that Khmer is Khamin, which is different from Khorm. Furthermore, they say that Khorms are the real inhabitants of what is now Thailand and they were the builders of Preah Vihear, Angkor, and all the ancient temples found in Cambodia and Thailand. They are saying that Khmers are not the descendents of the Angkor builders. Therefore, they try to justify by implication that Thai people are the true descendents of the Khorms, the original inhabitants of Thailand and builders of Preah Vihear and Angkor.

The Thai people have such a twisted mind. Believing in this twisted thesis is like believing that a bullet firing from a gun can be curved around a corner. The Thais are not only satisfied to steal everything that are precious to Khmers and then claimed them to be their own, such as Preah Ko Preah Keo, Preah Khan Reach, Khmer classical dance and music, Khmer style boxing, and Khmer scripts "Aksor Moul" (the Thai called it sacred scripts instead of Khmer scripts), but now they try to even steal Khmer identity. They want to strip Khmer people bare of any ancestry.

[Plus]

I can't think of anyone on this board who'd say things like "Cambodians have twisted mind", why is it deemed ok for cambodia.org "infrormation center"?

Rude, offensive, confrontational, and uncivilised.

[jimbob]

I can't think of anyone on this board who'd say things like "Cambodians have twisted mind", why is it deemed ok for cambodia.org "infrormation center"?

Rude, offensive, confrontational, and uncivilised.

Yes, they are angry and this is reflected in their words but they clearly only aim that anger at "some Thais in the academic, the press, and the media".

There is nothing wrong with accusing a small sub-section of the population as having twisted minds. This is something that PAD and PPP are doing to each other constantly.

I think you are attacking the source because there is merit in their arguments which exposes the weakness and poor rationale of your opinions.

[Plus]

The first paragraph was about academics, the second paragraph takes a general sweep:

"The Thai people have such a twisted mind..." and then goes to blame "the Thai people" for stealing from Cambodia during the period of at least a century.

PAD and PPP might trade accusations and insults, but it's not an official stage for Thai government to express its opinion. That's why I asked who are the people behing cambodia.org.

Domain like this is not a sign of some anonymous website for angry folks with huge chips on their shoulders.

I've seen a lot worse out there on the Internet, I've yet to find a reasonably civilised Cambodian in those forums, they all sound like deeply chovinistic freaks blinded by rage and hatred. That's my, admittedly limited, experience.

Now I see similar language making its way into cambodia.org. What should I make of it?

[jimbob]

What should you make of it?

I think you should realise that there are a lot of Cambodians who are angry that Thai academics, politicians and media are denying their heritage and claiming Cambodian land and temples as being Thai.

[sabaijai]

Just look at the temple and tell something straight from your heart. Does it look "Khmer" (e.g. Angkor Wat) or "Thai" (e.g. Wat Phra Kaew) to you?

There are around a thousand Angkor or pre-Angkor-period Khmer temple ruins sites in Thailand, reaching from northeastern Thailand all the way to Lopburi and Kanchanaburi. Thailand also has temples built in the Burmese, Mon, Chinese, Lao, Indian, etc styles. Art style holds little relevance; it's the land underneath and around the temples that's in question, and these temples (Ta Muan and Ta Khwai) fall in disputed areas that have been under Thai control for quite some time.

[sabaijai]

The Khmers have a long and illustrious cultural history that predates that of both Thailand and Siam and includes a number of different religions and beliefs that have developed over thousands of years.

But at least you acknowledge that the temples are Cambodian.

Correction on the first point. If you mean the Angkor kingdom was older than any Siamese empire, well they emerged at roughly the same time although the Angkor empire was more powerful for the first few centuries, and then a Siamese empire overtook it.

If you mean Thai vs Khmer cultures, the Austro-Thai culture is the oldest in Asia, predates the Mon-Khmer by at least a few thousand years.

On the second, the temples were built by Khmer design during the Angkor period, full stop. Don't confuse Khmer ethnicity with Cambodian nationality. There are still many people of Khmer ancestry in NE Thailand, who are not now -- and never have been -- Cambodian.

The Angkor Kingdom predates Siam by a good few centuries I believe.

Don't confuse muddled and overtly bias Thai history books with fact.

The Angkorian Kingdom and Khmer ethnicity are directly linked with modern day Cambodia. This is universally accepted everywhere except Thailand.

It will never be a fact that ethnicity equals nationality. Not by any authoritative English dictionary, nor by any political scientist. That sort of muddling --equating nationality with ethnicity -- was tried in Nazi Germany and at many other junctures in history, more recently in the lands of former Yugoslavia.

Likewise age of a culture hardly translates to sovereignty. If it did then the Khmer today would need to vacate Cambodia for the several ethnic groups still living in southern Laos, western Vietnam and northern Cambodia that preceded the Khmer.

[jimbob]

Just look at the temple and tell something straight from your heart. Does it look "Khmer" (e.g. Angkor Wat) or "Thai" (e.g. Wat Phra Kaew) to you?

There are around a thousand Angkor or pre-Angkor-period Khmer temple ruins sites in Thailand, reaching from northeastern Thailand all the way to Lopburi and Kanchanaburi. Thailand also has temples built in the Burmese, Mon, Chinese, Lao, Indian, etc styles. Art style holds little relevance; it's the land underneath and around the temples that's in question, and these temples (Ta Muan and Ta Khwai) fall in disputed areas that have been under Thai control for quite some time.

I understand that 2 out of 3 of the Ta Muan temples fall under Cambodian sovereignty according to the most recent treaties between Thailand and Cambodia.

I think any recent encroachment that is counter to previous treaties is not seen as legitimate in terms of international courts (ICJ, UN etc.)

Ta Kwai I am not so familiar with but from what I gather both sides had previously agreed not to occupy the temple militarily while border negotiations continue.

Unfortunately Thai domestic affairs make any progress doubtful in the near future.