haybilly Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Seniors and elders are the only people you should ever wai, you talk about face but you will lose alot of it if you wai everyone who wai's you. being a Farang who visited Thailand for the first time 35 years ago, having later spent numerous times my holidays in this country and now living in Thailand since nearly four years i am dàmn sure that my wife and me have lost face (unknowingly and unintentionally) a zillion times. but last time i checked we still had our faces, we never took any drugs to cure our loss of face and we never experienced (knowingly) any unpleasant side effects. i admit, respectively know, that loss of face can mean something very negative in Asia for Asians. Farangs can easily compensate using colourful printed paper depicting His Majesty (bless him!). 4 years in Pattaya is not experience I'd want to listen to. Not wishing to get involved in the tit-for-tat crap, but here goes---I'm none too sure I'd listen to advice from a fool who can lose 7 mill. Baht gambling, duhh! And, as far as 'wai-ing' goes, after nearly 10 years trying to do it at the correct times to the correct people I can only say that I, like most farang if we're honest, still get it mostly wrong--but then what do I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggybear Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 My question to you is; "why wai; are you thai?" No, but I do business here and many of my customers are Thai. When they wai me, I only feel it polite to wai back, especially if they are the big boss with tons of dough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solent01 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 I'd suggest you first learn your place in the Thai hierarchical system, and your place in Thailand... When you've worked out that you are not part of the system and not part of the hierarchy, the rest falls easily into place...including how important you think it is for a foreigner to wai or not... Politeness and respect can be shown in many ways, and Thais are bright enough to realise that... To OP: Do you regularly give priority to the following in place of your own value system: - kreng jai - other forms of hai kiad - sam ruam - strive to gain baramee - phradet/phrakun - bunkhun - Sakdi Na - avoid conflict - lie to save face - accept corruption as part of life - Tod Krathin - say yes to going to a private function (even knowing you will not attend) then not turn up without saying anything to the host, so it balances - go silent when you are angry - attach importance only to people in your family and work circles and behave selfishly when meeting other people knowing they are one off interactions etc etc etc Relax and realise people are different. Personally I'm my own person with my own principles and values. Anyone who can't appreciate that doesn't deserve a wai in the first place... Well I'm a well raised English gentleman, I will let you fill in all the blanks. But to answer all of the above will take a great deal of time so lets just say that is my value system so I have no need to give priority to it, thats how my parents raised me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solent01 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 Some great post's please keep them coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeaceBlondie Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Oh good, I get to reply right after tod daniels again refers to the diminutive residents of Thailand. Should I have wai'ed students or barboys who towered several inches above me? Wai we are on this subject: when do I wai as if I am just picking both nostrils with two hands, and when do I wai as if I am shoving my forelocks back above my forehead? How should I wai the many Burmese, Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese that I have met here? Wai not? I realize that if I were trying to get a government license to teach here now, I would have to go to Thai Culture Course, where I would learn how low to bow, how high to wigh, etc. I suspect the fine points are not expected of us farang. I know to wai my boyfriend's very elderly, diminutive, stooped mother. His sisters wai me without being told, and I raise my hands somewhere near my long farang nose which means....whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Not wishing to get involved in the tit-for-tat crap, but here goes---I'm none too sure I'd listen to advice from a fool who can lose 7 mill. Baht gambling, duhh! i think those who claim having lost 7 million Baht by gambling and post it in a discussion forum possess these millions only in their wet dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who, me ? Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Not wishing to get involved in the tit-for-tat crap, but here goes---I'm none too sure I'd listen to advice from a fool who can lose 7 mill. Baht gambling, duhh! i think those who claim having lost 7 million Baht by gambling and post it in a discussion forum possess these millions only in their wet dreams Now, that's a good one ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alantheembalmer Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 When we arrive in any country we instinctively return whatever greeting is offered to us, which can be embarrassing on reflection. This includes the Thai wai. When I look at what Thais do, it all looks so random; for example, the security men at my condo wai all the residents, and most, if not all of the Thai residents, do not even acknowledge them, which I see as rather impolite. When they wai me, I smile and nod in acknowledgement, which seems to satisfy all the participants. On an aside, I am quite surprised how many Thais actually extend their hands for me to shake, before I do, but then I do reside in Bangkok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) Thai people feel uncomfortable giving handshakes - they usually only do it to try to make Westerners feel more comfortable. If I live in Thailand, I think it correct if I wai them. It takes quite a long time to perfect all the different wais but I think it's important if I stay here a long time. The most important thing to the wai, IMHO is to do it slowly with mindfulness. Doing it wrong is sometimes worse than not doing it at all. Sadly, many farang don't care what Tais think of them, giving us all a bad reputation. I think you can tell a great deal about the farang and his Thai wife if she hasn't taught him the importance of waiing and how to do it. Edited July 24, 2008 by Neeranam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffcoat Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I wai my wife's parents and grandparents as a matter of course which makes her and them happy and generates approval from all the uncles,aunts,siblings and cousins. I respond to the rest of the family with a wai when they wai me as my 'status' in age/wealth as far as I can judge is superior to them ( a sharp elbow from She will point out any errors I make). Some of my extended family who speak English and have travelled a fair bit will often offer a handshake. Outside of the family I do not wai but respond with a smile and a nod where appropriate. Quite happy to wai to officials or anyone in authority when/if I need to but not had to yet.Senior people in any society receive deferrence according to the culture and I have no problem with adopting 'correct' behaviour,why risk giving offence when you don't need to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garro Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) I am often expected to wai at work. I only wai somebody if I can do it mindfully. A mindless rushed wai is what makes westerners look stupid. I remember a day trip to Bangkok a few years back and seeing this westerner giving a wai to everyone on the street as well as statues and anything that resembled a Buddha - it was on the Sukhumvit so his neck must have been sore. The guy was a fine example of what not to do - no doubt he was high as a kite on yaa baa Edited July 24, 2008 by garro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbowman1993 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I'd suggest you first learn your place in the Thai hierarchical system, and your place in Thailand... When you've worked out that you are not part of the system and not part of the hierarchy, the rest falls easily into place...including how important you think it is for a foreigner to wai or not... Politeness and respect can be shown in many ways, and Thais are bright enough to realise that... To OP: Do you regularly give priority to the following in place of your own value system: - kreng jai - other forms of hai kiad - sam ruam - strive to gain baramee - phradet/phrakun - bunkhun - Sakdi Na - avoid conflict - lie to save face - accept corruption as part of life - Tod Krathin - say yes to going to a private function (even knowing you will not attend) then not turn up without saying anything to the host, so it balances - go silent when you are angry - attach importance only to people in your family and work circles and behave selfishly when meeting other people knowing they are one off interactions etc etc etc Relax and realise people are different. Personally I'm my own person with my own principles and values. Anyone who can't appreciate that doesn't deserve a wai in the first place... Only problem with that list is that most of the words on it are not at all familiar to most farang. Which, in itself, is a major part of hte problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekka007 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 but to not return a wai would be the equivalent of someone offering to shake your hand and you ignoring them Wrong. does not mean that AT ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losangels Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 but to not return a wai would be the equivalent of someone offering to shake your hand and you ignoring them Wrong. does not mean that AT ALL. Meaning the waier is a child or lower social class than the waiee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudhopper Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I'd suggest you first learn your place in the Thai hierarchical system, and your place in Thailand... When you've worked out that you are not part of the system and not part of the hierarchy, the rest falls easily into place...including how important you think it is for a foreigner to wai or not... Politeness and respect can be shown in many ways, and Thais are bright enough to realise that... To OP: Do you regularly give priority to the following in place of your own value system: - kreng jai - other forms of hai kiad - sam ruam - strive to gain baramee - phradet/phrakun - bunkhun - Sakdi Na - avoid conflict - lie to save face - accept corruption as part of life - Tod Krathin - say yes to going to a private function (even knowing you will not attend) then not turn up without saying anything to the host, so it balances - go silent when you are angry - attach importance only to people in your family and work circles and behave selfishly when meeting other people knowing they are one off interactions etc etc etc Relax and realise people are different. Personally I'm my own person with my own principles and values. Anyone who can't appreciate that doesn't deserve a wai in the first place... <deleted> is all this? Can someone knowledgeable about the culture and fluent in English just lay down the basic rules about wai-ing in that language for the rest of us so we can just get on with it here? Sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pampal Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 to wai or not to wai, that is the question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmanjack Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 <deleted> is all this? Can someone knowledgeable about the culture and fluent in English just lay down the basic rules about wai-ing in that language for the rest of us so we can just get on with it here? Sorted. How high to Wai is complicated. The books that i have read say that it is a combination of age, wealth, power, and education. This is compared with you and the other person. Whoever ranks higher in all of these gives the lower wai. How much weight each gets as opposed to the others i have no idea. Personally the only one that would get a wai above my nose is a member of the royal family even though i am not wealthy or that aged. Nor do I have a doctorate. I just don't buy into the superior/inferior bit that the thais do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roygsd Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I mostly reply with a slight bow of the head in acknowledgement, unless it is someone of importance, then I will wai first. I never wai my in-laws as they deserve no respect. Having said that, a while ago my Father came to visit me, I tried to keep the in-laws away but the inevitable happened and the MiL dropped by, so I lit the barbie, the FiL dropped in a few hours later and ran straight up to my Dad and gave him a hug. I was so very shocked to see a Thai man giving someone a hug, needless to say my Dad was pretty shocked too Presume his wallet was in his other jacket then?LOL. Roygsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roygsd Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Never, unless you meet the parents.edit// spleling Please tell me do I Wai the parents when I given them money? May be safer than shaking hands......biting the hand that feeds you? roy gsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeaceBlondie Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I just remembered that when George Fox started the 'Quaker' denomination, he advised its followers to never bow or curtsey to anybody, including the highest royalty in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFKAFSinLOS Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I'd suggest you first learn your place in the Thai hierarchical system, and your place in Thailand... When you've worked out that you are not part of the system and not part of the hierarchy, the rest falls easily into place...including how important you think it is for a foreigner to wai or not... Politeness and respect can be shown in many ways, and Thais are bright enough to realise that... To OP: Do you regularly give priority to the following in place of your own value system: - kreng jai - other forms of hai kiad - sam ruam - strive to gain baramee - phradet/phrakun - bunkhun - Sakdi Na - avoid conflict - lie to save face - accept corruption as part of life - Tod Krathin - say yes to going to a private function (even knowing you will not attend) then not turn up without saying anything to the host, so it balances - go silent when you are angry - attach importance only to people in your family and work circles and behave selfishly when meeting other people knowing they are one off interactions etc etc etc Relax and realise people are different. Personally I'm my own person with my own principles and values. Anyone who can't appreciate that doesn't deserve a wai in the first place... Only problem with that list is that most of the words on it are not at all familiar to most farang. Which, in itself, is a major part of hte problem. Just a few things that came to mind, and was just trying to highlight, that once you start on these things, where do you draw the line... ...Particularly when you're outside the Thai system and hierarchy. "Wai-ing", Thai language, cultural expertise, etc are all about as important as you want them to be... Like many Thais, some people on here also need to bear in mind that just because you choose not to do something, doesn't mean you don't understand it... Key: Relax and be yourself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roygsd Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 On another thread someone said "Wai's are for thais"..... I think that says it all..I have seen all too many foreigners acting like sheep-like sock puppets wai'ing everything from limbless beggars, bar-gurls, soi dogs, parking lot attendants, and service staff in restaurants. It makes my stomach hurt (from laughter). The ever smiling yet diminutive inhabitants in the glorious "Land 'O Thais" have generations of oxymoronic ingrained behavior pawned off as alleged culture. I accept that because it is their country I live in, NOT because I buy into any of it. IF a thai wai's I'll nod back, and that's about as much acknowledgement as they'll ever get. Going on 4 years here; never wai'd, never will. My question to you is; "why wai; are you thai?" roy gsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmanjack Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Just a few things that came to mind, and was just trying to highlight, that once you start on these things, where do you draw the line... ...Particularly when you're outside the Thai system and hierarchy. "Wai-ing", Thai language, cultural expertise, etc are all about as important as you want them to be... Like many Thais, some people on here also need to bear in mind that just because you choose not to do something, doesn't mean you don't understand it... Key: Relax and be yourself... It has a lot to do with what you are doing in thailand. I have a business and have to deal with thai business people. I also have to deal with pompous government officials. if a wai will help move things along or smooth things over then i will do it. I am also a relatively polite person so if a person wais me i usually wai them back or at least smile and nod if my hands are full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roygsd Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 to wai or not to wai, that is the question Or as they now sing on theterraces at Man city, Idd it my wai.................. Roy gsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roygsd Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I just remembered that when George Fox started the 'Quaker' denomination, he advised its followers to never bow or curtsey to anybody, including the highest royalty in England. Wow, that some age you got thereLOL Roy gsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Pretty much every time this topic pops up it gets the same crowd. 1. Those who don't wai at anything 2. Those that only wai a certain category of people 3. The backpacker wai - wais everything, even the local soi dog. 4. The culturally aware, which appears to be a small minority. I have been coming to Thailand for over 35 years, working here nearly 16 years and 99.9% of my interactions are with Thai, from the lowest class to the highest class you can imagine. I made/make an effort to know the culture and its' meaning to make my daily life more pleasant. I'm at a point where I instinctively know when, where and how to wai. Not to say that I don't occasionally make a faux pax, but when I do I usually realize it immediately and kick myself for a while for doing it (in other words, I should have known better). I talked to a Thai ajarn friend of mine at the university regarding his thoughts on farangs and waiing or not waiing. First I asked if it was a tourist or a visiting professor and he did not return a wai, what would he think. His comment was he wouldn't think anything of it knowing the person is culturally unaware. Now he made a point though and used me as an example (as an analogy for the opposite farang group). He said if he was standing somewhere out of sight and saw a Thai approach me and waied me but I didn't return the wai, he would be quite upset. The reason is he knows me, that I have been here a long time and understand the culture, I speak the language and have a Thai wife. In other words, there is no excuse for my behavior with this person. Same with some other Thais at the university, if you refuse to wai then you do not respect the culture or the people (again, if you have been here for an extended period and not the casual visitor). Now these are highly educated Thais who make a distinction between the various farang categories. Now try to think of lessor educated Thais and I suspect their thoughts are a little less forgiving. One last thing and that is waiing children. Some think it is never appropriate. My ajarn friend explained that he will return a wai to a child (he will not initiate it), his reasoning is if he doesn't the child will grow up thinking it is not important. In other words, he leads by example. Funny enough, seems I see more higher class Thais returning wais to kids then others. Handshake vs wai. Yes, not the same thing in either meaning or effect. Though having said that, it seems I remember reading that the wai originated in the same fashion as the handshake. That is, it was to show your enemy you were not holding a weapon. I'm still trying to find the history and the where and why of how the wai started. My colleague believes it originated in India. My 2 satangs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFKAFSinLOS Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 It has a lot to do with what you are doing in thailand. I have a business and have to deal with thai business people. I also have to deal with pompous government officials. if a wai will help move things along or smooth things over then i will do it. I am also a relatively polite person so if a person wais me i usually wai them back or at least smile and nod if my hands are full. Naaah, It has as much do with what you are doing in Thailand as you want it to... It's one small thing among a million others I can't ever recall a foreigner losing out on a business deal just because they didn't wai someone... In business the only time as a foreigner, I'd consider I ought to wai, and it would really make a difference, is if I was in a meeting with mixed foreign and Thai participation, and everyone in the whole room, including all the other foreigners, wai'd a particular person... Your last sentence is much more on the mark. Simple polite acknowledgement of a wai with a nod or a smile is enough in 99%+ of cases... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madjbs Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) I think Tywais has covered everything spot on in his post. It's sad to read how so many people show such little respect to other peoples culture and traditions while staying in their country and interacting with local people. Edited July 24, 2008 by madjbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFKAFSinLOS Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 ...I talked to a Thai ajarn friend of mine at the university regarding his thoughts on farangs and waiing or not waiing. First I asked if it was a tourist or a visiting professor and he did not return a wai, what would he think. His comment was he wouldn't think anything of it knowing the person is culturally unaware. Now he made a point though and used me as an example (as an analogy for the opposite farang group). He said if he was standing somewhere out of sight and saw a Thai approach me and waied me but I didn't return the wai, he would be quite upset. The reason is he knows me, that I have been here a long time and understand the culture, I speak the language and have a Thai wife. In other words, there is no excuse for my behavior with this person. Same with some other Thais at the university, if you refuse to wai then you do not respect the culture or the people (again, if you have been here for an extended period and not the casual visitor). Now these are highly educated Thais who make a distinction between the various farang categories. Now try to think of lessor educated Thais and I suspect their thoughts are a little less forgiving. ... Just curious... Would he "judge" you in the same way on compliance with the arbitrary list I posted above of some other elements of Thai behviour...? Also... Have you ever tried to explain to that same educated university professor, that while you respect him, his culture and his country it may not be consistent with your own values and you might have a different point of view...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Just curious... Would he "judge" you in the same way on compliance with the arbitrary list I posted above of some other elements of Thai behviour...? Sorry, I just skimmed over your post earlier. But looking at it I find it too stereotypical, that is not all Thais adhere to all the items. Don't want to take up space itemizing each of them but I know several he would not do nor agree to. Also... Have you ever tried to explain to that same educated university professor, that while you respect him, his culture and his country it may not be consistent with your own values and you might have a different point of view...? We occasionally have conversations on cultural differences, either my initiating a question or him when he sees something that is not clear to him. And yes, different points of view have been brought up but always in an amiable and curious way. He is a good friend and there has never been a subject I can't approach him with. To be honest, regarding my 'home values', it has become more gray the longer I'm here. Some items on your list I except because I have no other choice if I want to keep my sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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