How To Solve The Southern Problems?

[Sigur ros]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Everybody is being told what others want us to hear. This goes for politics, religion and here on this forum. The problem is that none of us know the absolute truth. We have not lived in the shoes of those in the south. Not in Muslim shoes or Thai shoes.

The large majority of people cannot even sort out their own personal problems in Life, let alone the problems of southern Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly right Ravisher!

However, this leftover socialist has tried to criticize and interfere my own country. I could not just watch and let this guy blame my nation alone with limited information.

[Sigur ros]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Everybody is being told what others want us to hear. This goes for politics, religion and here on this forum. The problem is that none of us know the absolute truth. We have not lived in the shoes of those in the south. Not in Muslim shoes or Thai shoes.

The large majority of people cannot even sort out their own personal problems in Life, let alone the problems of southern Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly right Ravisher!

However, this leftover socialist has tried to criticize and interfere my own country. I could not just watch and let this guy blame my nation alone with limited information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We ALL have limited information Sigur Ros, and it is exactly for that reason we have so many problems in the world. Lack of true information leads to lack of true understanding.

All human beings have similar faculties of logic, but without proper information and truth we cannot come to true and proper logical conclusions. Unfortunately we tend to believe what we see, read or hear from people of so-called 'authority'. We never get the 'whole' truth, therefore all our judgements are based on what we 'think' we 'know' and not on the truth itself. As I see it, the biggest contributor of misinformation and lack of truth are religion and politics. Religion was initially contrived to control human animals. To stop them waring among themselves and an attemp to make them behave more civilized. Nothing is more frightening to the human being than a force and power that cannot be seen or touched. Something that can strike you dead, or harm and torture you with fire even after you are dead. This kept multitudes of people under control. It also made the priests and founders of religions extremely rich and powerful, as they are to this very day. Now while these religions flourished in isolation of each other all was fine... once they began to interact with each other the problems began... and even now they continue... The different religious believers cannot understand that they are believing in a lie... they cannot understand that believers of other religions are also believing in lies... Exactly the same pricipal is happening in politics... lies, lies and more lies... leading to nobody understanding the Truth.

I look at the recent election in the USA. I find it incredulous that these (ONLY) two candidates were the best they could find to run the most powerful nation on earth. These two... a muppet and a cowboy. It must be obvious to even the most naive of us, that something is absolutely wrong here.

I observed after 911 a Muslim leader ranting like a maniac against America... show on American TV news and blasting the 'extremists'... Then I watched the memorial service... and a man of the cloth ranting and quoting, "And David went forth and smote down his enemies!" Sorry, but I see no difference in the two "extremists".

Until there is a Uninted World... with one True religion based on philosophy and one political system based on Truth, there will be not end to the past and present state of affairs.

Sorry this is so long... but I felt a need to say it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's so long but its worth reading,Ravisher

[kurgen]

as that great man Kenny Everett used to say "round them all up in a field'and bomb the bastards"

[kurgen]

you're right, everything he did was done in the best possible taste

[Dickie]

Islam DOES say "kill the unbeliever wherever you meet him, torture him, etc." and there's no getting away from it. You CAN'T negotiate with nutters who follow the words of a paedophile mass-murderer, which mohammed was. You can't allow these nutters to remain at large, therefore the best solution is to kill them.

Sounds harsh, but the alternative is worse, as in they will kill us.

[Boon Mee]

I think the war will come from the USA in the form of genetic viri. I am suspitious about the AIDS virus already... and the 'bird flus' in China... Maybe the war has begun, and we don't know it yet...

This turning into another America-Bashing thread?

[Sigur ros]

QUOTE(Covertjay @ 2004-11-29 16:02:53)

!

A fox news alert....................

Yep, I'm being exploited by terrorists!

Enlighten me o Sigur.......

I await your next republican fortune cookie..............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another pure nonsense

[Covertjay]

Islam DOES say "kill the unbeliever wherever you meet him, torture him, etc." and there's no getting away from it. You CAN'T negotiate with nutters who follow the words of a paedophile mass-murderer, which mohammed was. You can't allow these nutters to remain at large, therefore the best solution is to kill them.

Sounds harsh, but the alternative is worse, as in they will kill us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you read the Koran? Studied the life of Mohammad? Or you just watched enough Charles Bronson movies to get a good idea?

[Covertjay]

"There is no compulsion in religion"

"to your religion to me mine"

"All people are a single nation."

-- The Holy Koran

"The Apostle had not been given permission to fight or allowed to shed blood ... he had simply been ordered to call men to God, endure insult, and forgive the ignorant" (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah).

[somtaamgaiyang]

Unfortunately, as most of us know, some Thais are more equal than others and those down south are treated as the "least" equal of all.

Until Thais get past the need for being Buddhist to be a prerequisite for being Thai this problem will persist.

Successive governments have negelcted the south because they are "down there" so to say.

This current government is catching a disproprtionate amount of flack for it because their heartland is in BKK, CNX and Isaan. They obviously have no care for the south and the people are voicing their objection either by claiming a desire for seperatism as opposed to the democrats who had some political connection to the south.

It is a shame but I cannot see how this will be resolved in the current situation, since the traditional Thai policy, which would have been to scare the populous; through army crackdowns (communist increase in Isaan) does not look very good when flashed across 24 hour news channels.

I fear that the current government has no idea how to solve this problem without there being considerable bloodshed, and should Thaksin win the next election (a high probability) the problem will only get worse. This problem needs more than the "corporal punishement" way of putting the army down there to clean it up.

The current government believes that hand outs and a gazillion paper birds will reduce the tensions down there. The problem is much deeper than that and will not be solved as long as there is a distinction in the hearts of the people between Thais who are Buddhist and those who are not.

Do not forget the ethnicity of most power brokers in this country. Thaksin has a policy to deal with poor Thai buddhists (Northern and Isaan farmers) simply by lobbing money at them. Unfortunately, the problem in the south will need him and his cronies to get a brain/culture transplant or he will never be able to understand.

[Covertjay]

Unfortunately, as most of us know, some Thais are more equal than others and those down south are treated as the "least" equal of all.

Until Thais get past the need for being Buddhist to be a prerequisite for being Thai this problem will persist.

Successive governments have negelcted the south because they are "down there" so to say.

This current government is catching a disproprtionate amount of flack for it because their heartland is in BKK, CNX and Isaan.  They obviously have no care for the south and the people are voicing their objection either by claiming a desire for seperatism as opposed to the democrats who had some political connection to the south.

It is a shame but I cannot see how this will be resolved in the current situation, since the traditional Thai policy, which would have been to scare the populous; through army crackdowns (communist increase in Isaan) does not look very good when flashed across 24 hour news channels. 

I fear that the current government has no idea how to solve this problem without there being considerable bloodshed, and should Thaksin win the next election (a high probability) the problem will only get worse.  This problem needs more than the "corporal punishement" way of putting the army down there to clean it up. 

The current government believes that hand outs and a gazillion paper birds will reduce the tensions down there.  The problem is much deeper than that and will not be solved as long as there is a distinction in the hearts of the people between Thais who are Buddhist and those who are not. 

Do not forget the ethnicity of most power brokers in this country.  Thaksin has a policy to deal with poor Thai buddhists (Northern and Isaan farmers) simply by lobbing money at them.  Unfortunately, the problem in the south will need him and his cronies to get a brain/culture transplant or he will never be able to understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said.

Lets not forget Toxin wanted to tell the Burmese what they did wrong internally, but if anyone metioned the south he was going to take his spade and bucket and go home. What a f$%^ing infant.

[wiseman]

THE PROBLEM NEEDS DEBATE THEN ACTION, UNTILL THEN STOP THE KILLING BY USE OF TROOPS.

[Sigur ros]

Well said.

Lets not forget Toxin wanted to tell the Burmese what they did wrong internally, but if anyone metioned the south he was going to take his spade and bucket and go home. What a f$%^ing infant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are out of date, leftover socialist! Malaysian and Indonesian leaders yesterday raised the issue of the unrest in the deep South of Thailand. Thaksin remained seated and he has explained the situation to regional counterparts. Thaksin is the first leader to use soft approach Burmese govt, he has never told that Burmese did wrong. Be more mature and substantial,bro- you're a lot older than me

[PAPA DUCK]

I sure hope the Muslims in Thailand don't start acting in the same fashion as the Muslims in the Philippines.

[Covertjay]

Well said.

Lets not forget Toxin wanted to tell the Burmese what they did wrong internally, but if anyone metioned the south he was going to take his spade and bucket and go home. What a f$%^ing infant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are out of date, leftover socialist! Malaysian and Indonesian leaders yesterday raised the issue of the unrest in the deep South of Thailand. Thaksin remained seated and he has explained the situation to regional counterparts. Thaksin is the first leader to use soft approach Burmese govt, he has never told that Burmese did wrong. Be more mature and substantial,bro- you're a lot older than me

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough Sieg Heil Ros.

I WAS working, so research time was limited. Alot older? why? are you 12? I'm 29. That soft approach is really working now isn't it?

Maybe Toxin is in league with the Burmese Junta? Just moved his paper business there now didn't he? Here's some more reason why they're mates and not interested in Burma's human rights.

Thailand: End Crackdown on Burmese Fleeing Abuses

Thai Government Policy Puts Thousands of Burmese at Risk

(New York, February 25, 2004)— Thailand must end its crackdown on Burmese fleeing rights abuses in their military-ruled homeland, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

The report, Out of Sight, Out of Mind: Thai Policy toward Burmese Refugees and Migrants, documents Thailand’s repression of refugees, asylum seekers, and migrant workers from Burma. The Thai government is arresting and intimidating Burmese political activists living in Bangkok and along the Thai-Burmese border, harassing Burmese human rights and humanitarian groups, and deporting Burmese refugees, asylum seekers and others with a genuine fear of persecution in Burma.

The Thai government last month suspended screening of new refugee applicants from Burma by the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The decision—part of an apparent government effort to forge friendships with Burma’s military rulers—has suddenly thrown thousands of Burmese asylum seekers into legal and practical limbo. Refugee assistance agencies and human rights groups have been flooded with calls and visits by Burmese asylum seekers asking where to turn for protection.

“Thailand shouldn’t be toughening its stance towards Burmese refugees when there has been no improvement in the abysmal conditions causing them to flee Burma,” said Brad Adams, executive director of Human Rights Watch’s Asia division. “Thailand should not allow commercial or diplomatic interests to interfere with the ability of Burmese to seek safety in Thailand.”

Ongoing abuses in Burma include forced labor, arrests for peaceful expression of political views, rape of ethnic minority women and children by government soldiers, conscription of child soldiers, and forced relocation of villages, Human Rights Watch said. Sporadic fighting continues in the border areas, despite recent discussions between Rangoon and one of the main rebel factions, the Karen National Union.

When—and if—screening of new Burmese asylum applications resumes, the Thai government will likely take on this crucial task. Because Thailand narrowly restricts its protection and assistance to “people fleeing fighting,” the government may start rejecting Burmese exiles and asylum seekers who are fleeing persecution for their pro-democracy activities in Burma. Those who are rejected would be classified as illegal immigrants and face the risk of being deported to Burma.

The Thai government announced plans last July to send all 4,000 Burmese refugees and asylum seekers living in Bangkok and other urban areas to border camps, despite the fact that many are fearful for their security because of cross-border violence as well as political and ethnic conflicts within the camps.

Thai authorities have also launched a fresh campaign to round up and deport thousands of Burmese migrant workers back to Burma. Many of the estimated one million Burmese migrant workers in Thailand fled their homeland for a mixture of political and economic reasons, and could face serious reprisals from the Burmese authorities if forced to return, Human Rights Watch said.

Thailand regularly expels as many as 10,000 Burmese migrants a month in “informal deportations” to Burma. While many are able to bribe their way back into Thailand, others have faced persecution or other ill-treatment by Burmese government soldiers and intelligence officials, and by some of the other ethnic-based armed groups operating along the border.

Under an agreement between the Thai government and Burma’s ruling State Peace and Development Council, Thailand also deports 400 “illegal” Burmese each month from the Immigration Detention Center in Bangkok to Burma—directly into a holding center operated by Burmese military intelligence. Those whom the UNHCR has recognized as refugees or asylum seekers are supposed to identify themselves as such at the detention center in order to avoid deportation, but human rights workers fear that many people fall through the cracks.

“Burmese refugees who support themselves as migrant workers in Thailand undoubtedly get caught up in these police sweeps,” said Adams. “Among those deported, many will face severe persecution once back in Burma. The Thai government’s crackdown puts the lives of many Burmese at risk.”

Human Rights Watch noted that under customary international law, the Thai government has an obligation not to return anyone to a country where his or her life or freedom is at risk.

“Thailand must not forcibly return any Burmese who may have a claim to refugee status,” Adams said. “Rather than expelling Burmese, sealing the border and refusing to protect new refugees, the Thai government should ensure that the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees is able to identify and protect those who have a fear of persecution in Burma.”

Thailand and the United States reached an agreement in January to resettle at least 4,000 of the 140,000 Burmese refugees in Thailand to the United States. Human Rights Watch said that this resettlement should help to improve the situation, so long as Thailand does not implement the agreement with the intention of making it harder for Burmese democracy activists to pursue their cause.

“While this agreement is welcome in principle, the U.S. government should make sure that Thailand does not now declare the refugee problem ‘solved,’ seal the border to new asylum seekers from Burma, and deepen its crackdown on undocumented Burmese migrants,” said Adams. “Those Burmese who choose not to resettle abroad should not be pressured or forced to return to Burma.”

[Sigur ros]

Well said.

Lets not forget Toxin wanted to tell the Burmese what they did wrong internally, but if anyone metioned the south he was going to take his spade and bucket and go home. What a f$%^ing infant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are out of date, leftover socialist! Malaysian and Indonesian leaders yesterday raised the issue of the unrest in the deep South of Thailand. Thaksin remained seated and he has explained the situation to regional counterparts. Thaksin is the first leader to use soft approach Burmese govt, he has never told that Burmese did wrong. Be more mature and substantial,bro- you're a lot older than me

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough Sieg Heil Ros.

I WAS working, so research time was limited. Alot older? why? are you 12? I'm 29. That soft approach is really working now isn't it?

Maybe Toxin is in league with the Burmese Junta? Just moved his paper business there now didn't he? Here's some more reason why they're mates and not interested in Burma's human rights.

Thailand: End Crackdown on Burmese Fleeing Abuses

Thai Government Policy Puts Thousands of Burmese at Risk

(New York, February 25, 2004)— Thailand must end its crackdown on Burmese fleeing rights abuses in their military-ruled homeland, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

The report, Out of Sight, Out of Mind: Thai Policy toward Burmese Refugees and Migrants, documents Thailand’s repression of refugees, asylum seekers, and migrant workers from Burma. The Thai government is arresting and intimidating Burmese political activists living in Bangkok and along the Thai-Burmese border, harassing Burmese human rights and humanitarian groups, and deporting Burmese refugees, asylum seekers and others with a genuine fear of persecution in Burma.

The Thai government last month suspended screening of new refugee applicants from Burma by the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The decision—part of an apparent government effort to forge friendships with Burma’s military rulers—has suddenly thrown thousands of Burmese asylum seekers into legal and practical limbo. Refugee assistance agencies and human rights groups have been flooded with calls and visits by Burmese asylum seekers asking where to turn for protection.

“Thailand shouldn’t be toughening its stance towards Burmese refugees when there has been no improvement in the abysmal conditions causing them to flee Burma,” said Brad Adams, executive director of Human Rights Watch’s Asia division. “Thailand should not allow commercial or diplomatic interests to interfere with the ability of Burmese to seek safety in Thailand.”

Ongoing abuses in Burma include forced labor, arrests for peaceful expression of political views, rape of ethnic minority women and children by government soldiers, conscription of child soldiers, and forced relocation of villages, Human Rights Watch said. Sporadic fighting continues in the border areas, despite recent discussions between Rangoon and one of the main rebel factions, the Karen National Union.

When—and if—screening of new Burmese asylum applications resumes, the Thai government will likely take on this crucial task. Because Thailand narrowly restricts its protection and assistance to “people fleeing fighting,” the government may start rejecting Burmese exiles and asylum seekers who are fleeing persecution for their pro-democracy activities in Burma. Those who are rejected would be classified as illegal immigrants and face the risk of being deported to Burma.

The Thai government announced plans last July to send all 4,000 Burmese refugees and asylum seekers living in Bangkok and other urban areas to border camps, despite the fact that many are fearful for their security because of cross-border violence as well as political and ethnic conflicts within the camps.

Thai authorities have also launched a fresh campaign to round up and deport thousands of Burmese migrant workers back to Burma. Many of the estimated one million Burmese migrant workers in Thailand fled their homeland for a mixture of political and economic reasons, and could face serious reprisals from the Burmese authorities if forced to return, Human Rights Watch said.

Thailand regularly expels as many as 10,000 Burmese migrants a month in “informal deportations” to Burma. While many are able to bribe their way back into Thailand, others have faced persecution or other ill-treatment by Burmese government soldiers and intelligence officials, and by some of the other ethnic-based armed groups operating along the border.

Under an agreement between the Thai government and Burma’s ruling State Peace and Development Council, Thailand also deports 400 “illegal” Burmese each month from the Immigration Detention Center in Bangkok to Burma—directly into a holding center operated by Burmese military intelligence. Those whom the UNHCR has recognized as refugees or asylum seekers are supposed to identify themselves as such at the detention center in order to avoid deportation, but human rights workers fear that many people fall through the cracks.

“Burmese refugees who support themselves as migrant workers in Thailand undoubtedly get caught up in these police sweeps,” said Adams. “Among those deported, many will face severe persecution once back in Burma. The Thai government’s crackdown puts the lives of many Burmese at risk.”

Human Rights Watch noted that under customary international law, the Thai government has an obligation not to return anyone to a country where his or her life or freedom is at risk.

“Thailand must not forcibly return any Burmese who may have a claim to refugee status,” Adams said. “Rather than expelling Burmese, sealing the border and refusing to protect new refugees, the Thai government should ensure that the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees is able to identify and protect those who have a fear of persecution in Burma.”

Thailand and the United States reached an agreement in January to resettle at least 4,000 of the 140,000 Burmese refugees in Thailand to the United States. Human Rights Watch said that this resettlement should help to improve the situation, so long as Thailand does not implement the agreement with the intention of making it harder for Burmese democracy activists to pursue their cause.

“While this agreement is welcome in principle, the U.S. government should make sure that Thailand does not now declare the refugee problem ‘solved,’ seal the border to new asylum seekers from Burma, and deepen its crackdown on undocumented Burmese migrants,” said Adams. “Those Burmese who choose not to resettle abroad should not be pressured or forced to return to Burma.”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Too long and loads of ballocks, leftover socialist . So far it doesnt say that Thaksin wanted to tell the Burmese what they did wrong.

[Sigur ros]

Everything is coming out from this leftover socialist. Soon, prabably, sooner. People will see him clearly

[Covertjay]

Everything is coming out from this leaftover socialist. Soon, prabably, sooner. People will see him clearly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clearer than your spelling and grammar, mate.

Are you a second language learner at all?

[Sigur ros]

Everything is coming out from this leaftover socialist. Soon, prabably, sooner. People will see him clearly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clearer than your spelling and grammar, mate.

Are you a second language learner at all?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

C'mon, do not change your topic Are you losing, leaftover oops! leftover

[Sigur ros]

Everything is coming out from this leaftover socialist. Soon, prabably, sooner. People will see him clearly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clearer than your spelling and grammar, mate.

Are you a second language learner at all?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

C'mon, do not change your topic Are you losing, leaftover oops! leftover

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kanatip]

I'm 29. .”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

29 ? Like 20

[Covertjay]

I'm 29. .”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

29 ? Like 20

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No LIKE 29. I don't lie.

Back to the topic.

If you disagree with my critique of Taksin's strategy then explain my rather than engage in outright contradiction or musing over my age. Here's the latest masterstroke from the administration.

[Covertjay]

Sorry, it's here.

DEEP SOUTH : Severe security decree mulled

Published on December 01, 2004

The government is considering issuing a decree or legislation based upon the draconian internal security acts of Singapore and Malaysia that would permit police to hold indefinitely without charges any suspect linked to the ongoing southern violence, official sources said yesterday.

[Sigur ros]

Sorry, it's  here.

DEEP SOUTH : Severe security decree mulled

Published on December 01, 2004

The government is considering issuing a decree or legislation based upon the draconian internal security acts of Singapore and Malaysia that would permit police to hold indefinitely without charges any suspect linked to the ongoing southern violence, official sources said yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

blah blah blah... shrug off nothing new

[Covertjay]

Sorry, it's  here.

DEEP SOUTH : Severe security decree mulled

Published on December 01, 2004

The government is considering issuing a decree or legislation based upon the draconian internal security acts of Singapore and Malaysia that would permit police to hold indefinitely without charges any suspect linked to the ongoing southern violence, official sources said yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

blah blah blah... shrug off nothing new

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The true cynic is never disappointed. Suggest something or give an opinion before you kill this thread.

[kanatip]

Sorry, it's  here.

DEEP SOUTH : Severe security decree mulled

Published on December 01, 2004

The government is considering issuing a decree or legislation based upon the draconian internal security acts of Singapore and Malaysia that would permit police to hold indefinitely without charges any suspect linked to the ongoing southern violence, official sources said yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

blah blah blah... shrug off nothing new

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The true cynic is never disappointed. Suggest something or give an opinion before you kill this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think he achieved something. He has beaten you badly.

[Covertjay]

Sorry, it's  here.

DEEP SOUTH : Severe security decree mulled

Published on December 01, 2004

The government is considering issuing a decree or legislation based upon the draconian internal security acts of Singapore and Malaysia that would permit police to hold indefinitely without charges any suspect linked to the ongoing southern violence, official sources said yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

blah blah blah... shrug off nothing new

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um it is new. See the date? Theres a reason they call it new(s) ans why it makes the front page.

Offer something semi-thoughful if you can.

Besides, it was hardly in the Plato league of refutations.

Or perhaps Cleopatra isn't the only Queen of De Nile.

Did you vote for more troops?

Or would you dain to tell us what you actually THINK about the ISSUE.

P.S- Don't confuse the vibrant school of socialist political thought with the relic of communism. Very different.

[Backpack_thailand]

The biggest problem down there is the fact that the majority of the authorities are Buddhists, with power over a 90% Muslim population...doesn't take a lot of working out does it!

The only answer is autonomy with self government or evn full independence! I was down there last week and speaking with one or two locals they really are (generally) beautiful people. They just feel, with some justification, that they've been shat on!

Now I don't agree with the way they are dealing with the situation down there, but they don't have a voice nationally, that's the biggest beef....

it will only get worse before it gets better!

Shame really, on my border runs I used to love going to the beaches in Narathiwat. They make Phuket look like a swamp!

[fourbaht]

There is an option missing from the poll, "drop paper birds"

[Backpack_thailand]

There is an option missing from the poll, "drop paper birds"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do paper birds crap Tippex...??