Pesky-syllables

[Richard W]

One thing I hadn't noticed about written Thai is that you can chop it up into sesquisyllables, which you can't do with Tua Mueang (the Northern script). I can't think of any real good examples just now (perhaps Sabaijai can), but for example Montho (as in the letter) is written มณโฑ, whereas the truly Indian rules, which are used in Tua Mueang, would lead to it being spelt มโณฑ.

If I knew what a sesquisyllable was, I might be able to come up with one. But if the example you gave is a pesky-syllable, then Thai has many -- but they might be mostly of P/S origin? Just a shot in the dark, for me figuring out Thai vocabulary with problematic spellings is a simple matter of memorisation, as it is for most Thais. I'll leave you to figure this one out, Richard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The best general definition I can think up is 'a combination of a light, open syllable and a following more heavily stressed syllable, treated in many ways as though they were a single syllable.' In Thai they have the phonetic form CaCV©, where C = consonant and V = vowel. To me the archetypal example is เขมร [M]kha[R]meen 'Cambodian, Khmer', and they are very common in Khmer.

For learners of Thai, เขมร illustrates their most important properties:

• If the vowel of the main syllable is a preposed (i.e. put before, as in preposition) vowel, it is written before the first syllable.
  
• The vowel of the second syllable is not written
  
• The tone of the main syllable is determined by the consonant of the first syllable - 'the irregular tone rule'.
  

The irregular tone rule does not always apply. There are two guidelines which can help:

• The irregular tone rule only applies if the first consonant is a stop or fricative and the second is a resonant, i.e. one of งญณนมยรลว. I know of no exception to this guideline.
  
• The rule does not apply if the word feels P/S. This is a very subjective rule, and indeed in some words the irregular tone rule is optional.
  

[*]

I'm not sure whether sesquisyllables are part of modern spoken Thai or just a feature of writing. A couple of things make me think they were once a feature of spoken Thai:

• The irregular tone rule.
  
• Doublets such as ผสม [M]pha[R]som and ประสม [M]pra[R]som 'mix'. Thank you for this one, Ramdom Chances.
  
• The heavy Khmer influence on early Siam
  

No etymology is known for many of the words of one sesquisyllable that are affected by the irregular tone rule. Where one is known it is usually Khmer rather than P/S. Words derived from Proto-Tai origin are not affected by the rule - they do not have the appropriate phonetic shape and consonant combination. On the other hand, I have noticed several words which look as though they may be of P/S origin, but their spelling does not reflect it! Of course, these words could easily have passed to Thai through Khmer, with their P/S origin being forgotten.

Related to sesquisyllables is the structure CamCV©, where the irregular tone rule also applies, e.g. ตำรวจ [M]tam[L]ruat 'police'. -am- is an infix of Cambodian origin, so I presume ตำรวจ is a compound of ตรวจ [L]truat 'inspect', though curiously the RID only gives ตำรวจ and not ตรวจ as being of Khmer origin.

As far as I am aware, sesquisyllables only occur as the first (often only) syllable of a word.

To return to the original point, the devanagari script chops words up into aksharas that look like open syllables. For example, Pali pubbesanniva:sa 'being husband and wife in a previous existence' woud be chopped up as pu-bbe-sa-nni-va:-sa, which mechanically transposing to Thai script would be ปุเพฺพสนฺนิวาส. You can't chop that up into (sesqui-)syllables! However, when the Pali word is written in the Thai script, one gets ปุพฺเพสนฺนิวาส. In Thai the word is บุพเพสันนิวาส [L]bup[M]phee[R]san[L]ni[F]waat. The concept is real enough - my wife often says she hopes we don't take as long to find one another next time as we did this time!

Now, at a page on the Lanna script, How to use vowels and consonants, I find the the Lanna form of บุพเพ, which I presume is the prefix in the long word above, written as what is best transcribed literally as บุเพพ. The second พ is written beneath the first. Be glad Thai doesn't do that! If you wish to follow the link, be warned that it is very slow. I ended up downloading the fonts from elsewhere.

[ProfessorFart]

Richard, Your above post is full of nonsensical terms, none of which have any importance in learning Thai.

All you want to do is look good in front of those learning Thai.

You must be a linguistics bod full of his own importance.

How does this help anyone communicate with Thais?

Nonsense at best, utter dribble at worst.

[chonabot]

Richard, Your above post is full of nonsensical terms, none of which have any importance in learning Thai.

All you want to do is look good in front of those learning Thai.

You must be a liguistics bod full of his own importance.

How does this help anyone communicate with Thais?

Nonsense at best, utter dribble at worst.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Liguistics?

Is that the art of Ligging?

btw , Self important twaddle is good for the ® Soul so I heard...

[ProfessorFart]

Spelling mistake corrected.

My housemate just tried to read Richard's post and was flummoxed!

He understood yours though Chonabot!

[Richard W]

Richard, Your above post is full of nonsensical terms, none of which have any importance in learning Thai.

All you want to do is look good in front of those learning Thai.

You must be a linguistics bod full of his own importance.

How does this help anyone communicate with Thais?

Nonsense at best, utter dribble at worst.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought this was a forum for discussing the Thai language, not just for learning Thai. Some of us do have some intellectual curiosity.

Understanding sesquisyllables should be of some use in reading Thai. Ah well, back to rote learning, Thai-style!

I'd normally offer to explain any terms that puzzled people, but unfortunately I won't have much opportunity until the end of the month. Perhaps Meadish will answer any questions.

[meadish_sweetball]

Richard, Your above post is full of nonsensical terms, none of which have any importance in learning Thai.

All you want to do is look good in front of those learning Thai.

You must be a linguistics bod full of his own importance.

How does this help anyone communicate with Thais?

Nonsense at best, utter dribble at worst.

Richard is right, the forum is for all levels and aspects of the Thai language. I think most of us have to struggle to read his posts at times since he makes a clear effort to use as exact and condensed terminology as possible, but if you do make the effort and use your dictionary, you'll find that he presents information you would find it very hard to obtain in other sources. Of course, if you don't share his interest in linguistics and etymology there is really not much point in doing so.

Even if you don't understand what he is saying, it may still be valuable info to others. Why not just skip it and read other discussions and posts you like better if it makes you irritated?

[snowleopard]

One thing I hadn't noticed about written Thai is that you can chop it up into sesquisyllables, which you can't do with Tua Mueang (the Northern script). I can't think of any real good examples just now (perhaps Sabaijai can), but for example Montho (as in the letter) is written มณโฑ, whereas the truly Indian rules, which are used in Tua Mueang, would lead to it being spelt มโณฑ.

If I knew what a sesquisyllable was, I might be able to come up with one. But if the example you gave is a pesky-syllable, then Thai has many -- but they might be mostly of P/S origin? Just a shot in the dark, for me figuring out Thai vocabulary with problematic spellings is a simple matter of memorisation, as it is for most Thais. I'll leave you to figure this one out, Richard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The best general definition I can think up is 'a combination of a light, open syllable and a following more heavily stressed syllable, treated in many ways as though they were a single syllable.' In Thai they have the phonetic form CaCV©, where C = consonant and V = vowel. To me the archetypal example is เขมร [M]kha[R]meen 'Cambodian, Khmer', and they are very common in Khmer.

For learners of Thai, เขมร illustrates their most important properties:

• If the vowel of the main syllable is a preposed (i.e. put before, as in preposition) vowel, it is written before the first syllable.
  
• The vowel of the second syllable is not written
  
• The tone of the main syllable is determined by the consonant of the first syllable - 'the irregular tone rule'.
  

The irregular tone rule does not always apply. There are two guidelines which can help:

• The irregular tone rule only applies if the first consonant is a stop or fricative and the second is a resonant, i.e. one of งญณนมยรลว. I know of no exception to this guideline.
  
• The rule does not apply if the word feels P/S. This is a very subjective rule, and indeed in some words the irregular tone rule is optional.
  

[*]

I'm not sure whether sesquisyllables are part of modern spoken Thai or just a feature of writing. A couple of things make me think they were once a feature of spoken Thai:

• The irregular tone rule.
  
• Doublets such as ผสม [M]pha[R]som and ประสม [M]pra[R]som 'mix'. Thank you for this one, Ramdom Chances.
  
• The heavy Khmer influence on early Siam
  

No etymology is known for many of the words of one sesquisyllable that are affected by the irregular tone rule. Where one is known it is usually Khmer rather than P/S. Words derived from Proto-Tai origin are not affected by the rule - they do not have the appropriate phonetic shape and consonant combination. On the other hand, I have noticed several words which look as though they may be of P/S origin, but their spelling does not reflect it! Of course, these words could easily have passed to Thai through Khmer, with their P/S origin being forgotten.

Related to sesquisyllables is the structure CamCV©, where the irregular tone rule also applies, e.g. ตำรวจ [M]tam[L]ruat 'police'. -am- is an infix of Cambodian origin, so I presume ตำรวจ is a compound of ตรวจ [L]truat 'inspect', though curiously the RID only gives ตำรวจ and not ตรวจ as being of Khmer origin.

As far as I am aware, sesquisyllables only occur as the first (often only) syllable of a word.

To return to the original point, the devanagari script chops words up into aksharas that look like open syllables. For example, Pali pubbesanniva:sa 'being husband and wife in a previous existence' woud be chopped up as pu-bbe-sa-nni-va:-sa, which mechanically transposing to Thai script would be ปุเพฺพสนฺนิวาส. You can't chop that up into (sesqui-)syllables! However, when the Pali word is written in the Thai script, one gets ปุพฺเพสนฺนิวาส. In Thai the word is บุพเพสันนิวาส [L]bup[M]phee[R]san[L]ni[F]waat. The concept is real enough - my wife often says she hopes we don't take as long to find one another next time as we did this time!

Now, at a page on the Lanna script, How to use vowels and consonants, I find the the Lanna form of บุพเพ, which I presume is the prefix in the long word above, written as what is best transcribed literally as บุเพพ. The second พ is written beneath the first. Be glad Thai doesn't do that! If you wish to follow the link, be warned that it is very slow. I ended up downloading the fonts from elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Related to sesquisyllables is the structure CamCV©, where the irregular tone rule also applies, e.g. ตำรวจ [M]tam[L]ruat 'police'.  -am- is an infix of Cambodian origin, so I presume ตำรวจ is a compound of ตรวจ [L]truat 'inspect', though curiously the RID only gives ตำรวจ and not ตรวจ as being of Khmer origin.

so I presume ตำรวจ is a compound of ตรวจ [L]truat 'inspect'

Hi Richard,

I was thinking along the same lines re the word "dtam-ro-at"(คำรวจ=police) many years ago;and,I used to ask people back then if it might have something to do with the word "dtro-at (ตราจ=inspect).

Most answered that it probably didn't but I now believe that it might be the case anyway.

Both นายตรวจ "nai dtro-at" and นายตำรวจ "nai dtam-roat" mean "inspector".

Both ตรวจ "dtro-at" and สำรวจ "sam-roat" mean "explore".

The word ตำ "dtam" means 'to pound;'to grind';'to penetrate' etc.

Interestingly enough,,ตำ 'dtam',or, ตำข้าว 'dtam kaow' can also mean 'pounded rice' or only 'rice'!

Is it then not plausible that คำรวจ 'dtam-ro-at' originally could have had something to do with "rice inspections";or,"rice inspectors??

The prefix ตำ "dtam" can be found in several words.Here are a few...

1.ตำนาน "dtam-naan"=a history;a chronicle;a legend;annals;records

2.ตำบล "dtam-bon"=district which is a subdivision of an "am-poe" (อำเภอ)

3.ตำรับ "dtam-rup"=prescription;recipe

4.ตำรา "dtam-raa"=a textbook

5.นอกตำรา "nok dtam-raa"=unorthodox

6.ตำหนัก "dtam-nak"=a building inside the palace

7.ตำหนิ "dtam-ni"=a flaw;a defect

8.ตำแหน่ง "dtam-naeng"= a position;a place

9.ตำลึง "dtam leung"= a unit of weight equal to 60 gram;an old unit of currency equal to 4 baht;also a plant (Coccinia indica;Coccinia Grandis)

Don't be discouraged in your linguistic quest!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[sabaijai]

Richard, Your above post is full of nonsensical terms, none of which have any importance in learning Thai.

All you want to do is look good in front of those learning Thai.

You must be a linguistics bod full of his own importance.

How does this help anyone communicate with Thais?

Nonsense at best, utter dribble at worst.

No need to go flaming the guy just because you can't understand what he was on about. I understood it, hope that doesn't make me full of my own importance (which of course I am, seems like pretty much everyone posting here is).

Richard enjoys the odd meta-linguistic detour, and some of us follow him down the garden path and some don't/won't/can't. I wouldn't begrudge him the right to give it a shot, as it's helpful to some here and is always done with respect.

[sabaijai]

The prefix ตำ "dtam" can be found in several words.Here are a few... 

1.ตำนาน "dtam-naan"=a history;a chronicle;a legend;annals;records

2.ตำบล "dtam-bon"=district which is a subdivision of an "am-poe" (อำเภอ)

3.ตำรับ "dtam-rup"=prescription;recipe

4.ตำรา "dtam-raa"=a textbook

5.นอกตำรา "nok dtam-raa"=unorthodox

6.ตำหนัก "dtam-nak"=a building inside the palace

7.ตำหนิ "dtam-ni"=a flaw;a defect

8.ตำแหน่ง "dtam-naeng"= a position;a place

9.ตำลึง "dtam leung"= a unit of weight equal to 60 gram;an old unit of currency equal to 4 baht;also a plant (Coccinia indica;Coccinia Grandis)

I was taught that both ตรวจ and ตำรวจ derived from Khmer. Everyone here probably already knows this, but many - perhaps most - of the Khmer vocabulary imported into the Thai language have to do with science, government or royal affairs. When the Thais conquered Angkor, they borrowed not only the Khmer knowledge and methodology for these subjects, but much of the vocabulary too. Not to mention art, dance and music ...

There's also the infix ดำ-, and another common pair with/without the infix is:

ดำเนิน = administer/facilitate; walk (for royalty, prefixed with ทรงพระ)

เดิน = walk (for everyone else)

and a near homonym for คำรวจ:

ดำรวจ (with ด rather than ต) = analyze, consider

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, I can confirm having read that "tamruad" stems from Khmer. Infixing is apparently a common feature of Khmer (I only state what I remember, I do not claim to know any Khmer whatsoever).

I believe I found this info in "Beginning Thai", a publication from the Australian National University by Diller and Juntamalaga. It also had a few more examples of Khmer-style infixing used in Thai, but I cannot remember which ones.

My teacher used to point out how many words from the "phasaa talaad" (street lingo) of Phnom Penh are used in the ratchasab (language used to and of royalty) of Thailand.

[ProfessorFart]

Apologies for the above post Richard! It does seem a little hasrh.

I'd say this is more a walk in the deep dark jungle than the garden path.

You should look at FJ Huffman who wrote reams on this using Damnern and Dern as a sole example. Talk about dry!! Takes me back to university days with a shudder.

[sabaijai]

Apologies for the above post Richard! It does seem a little hasrh.

I'd say this is more a walk in the deep dark jungle than the garden path.

You should look at FJ Huffman who wrote reams on this using Damnern and Dern as a sole example. Talk about dry!! Takes me back to university days with a shudder.

FJ or FE?

You had a valid point to make (does knowing this stuff help you learn Thai, or would the time be better spent simply learning the related vocabulary? I believe the latter, but this stuff is inherently interesting to some people), just went overboard a little.

[Spee]

To all who have posted on this thread, I'm not a Mod or a wanna-be Mod, however:

As a Thai-language novice whose long term interests and goals now lie far beyond the first few chapters of "Teach Yourself Thai", I have found all of your various posts on the language to be extremely valuable.

Please keep your posts coming. Your input has help to shorten my learning curve by a huge amount, and also has stimulated new interests beyond my initial goals and objectives.

Please do not slam or prejudge others' posts, regardless of how simple, mundane or overly complex they may seem to you. Let the reader decide. The thread will either die quickly or live a long and healthy life based upon how much interest it generates.

Thanks for all past posts and TIA for those yet to come!!

Regards,

Spee

[Johpa]

Richard, I can follow your postings although my knowledge of Pali/Sanskrit is rather limited. It would appear that there are a few of us here with more formal linguisitic backgrounds. But for those of you who have not had the misfortune to have to study the works of noted linguists late into the night, you are absolutely correct that it has little bearing in your learning Thai.

[Richard W]

and a near homonym for คำรวจ:

ดำรวจ (with ด rather than ต) = analyze, consider

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interestingly, the RID regards ดำรวจ as the regular derivative from ตรวจ; I would agree. For the Khmer origin of ตำรวจ it gives Khmer ฎํรวต, ตมฺรวต. In non-Indic words, Khmer ฎ corresponds to Thai ด and the mark above it here is nikkhahit (a.k.a. niggahita), the Thai vowel symbol a + nasal, which most courses on Thai omit simply because (with one pedantic exception - a decomposition of the graphic symbol of the vowel อึ) it isn't used in writing Thai. I don't know whether Khmer ตมฺรวต is simply an archaic spelling dating back to before Khmer writing distinguished what are now /t/ and /d/.

I had to look up the word แผลง to understand the RID entry. The relevant meaning I found was:

2. v. to convert (a word), e.g. ดำริ is converted from ตริ.

[sabaijai]

and a near homonym for คำรวจ:

ดำรวจ (with ด rather than ต) = analyze, consider

Interestingly, the RID regards ดำรวจ as the regular derivative from ตรวจ; I would agree. For the Khmer origin of ตำรวจ it gives Khmer ฎํรวต, ตมฺรวต. In non-Indic words, Khmer ฎ corresponds to Thai ด and the mark above it here is nikkhahit (a.k.a. niggahita), the Thai vowel symbol a + nasal, which most courses on Thai omit simply because (with one pedantic exception - a decomposition of the graphic symbol of the vowel อึ) it isn't used in writing Thai. I don't know whether Khmer ตมฺรวต is simply an archaic spelling dating back to before Khmer writing distinguished what are now /t/ and /d/.

I had to look up the word แผลง to understand the RID entry. The relevant meaning I found was:

2. v. to convert (a word), e.g. ดำริ is converted from ตริ.

Interesting, so are you saying it was the Thais who added the /am/ infix, not the Khmer?

Edited December 1, 2004 by sabaijai

[Richard W]

and a near homonym for คำรวจ:

ดำรวจ (with ด rather than ต) = analyze, consider

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting, so are you saying it was the Thais who added the /am/ infix, not the Khmer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not saying that, but it has definitely been inserted in native Thai words. It's a very rare case of an infix being borrowed by a language, in this case Thai from Khmer. My only suggestion was that ตำรวจ might have a spelling-based pronunciation, as opposed to merely being an irregular form from Khmer.

[sabaijai]

and a near homonym for คำรวจ:

ดำรวจ (with ด rather than ต) = analyze, consider

Interesting, so are you saying it was the Thais who added the /am/ infix, not the Khmer?

I'm not saying that, but it has definitely been inserted in native Thai words. It's a very rare case of an infix being borrowed by a language, in this case Thai from Khmer. My only suggestion was that ตำรวจ might have a spelling-based pronunciation, as opposed to merely being an irregular form from Khmer.

Makes sense, got it.

[Richard W]

The prefix ตำ "dtam" can be found in several words.Here are a few...

1.ตำนาน "dtam-naan"=a history;a chronicle;a legend;annals;records

2.ตำบล "dtam-bon"=district which is a subdivision of an "am-poe" (อำเภอ)

3.ตำรับ "dtam-rup"=prescription;recipe

4.ตำรา "dtam-raa"=a textbook

5.นอกตำรา "nok dtam-raa"=unorthodox

6.ตำหนัก "dtam-nak"=a building inside the palace

7.ตำหนิ "dtam-ni"=a flaw;a defect

8.ตำแหน่ง "dtam-naeng"= a position;a place

9.ตำลึง "dtam leung"= a unit of weight equal to 60 gram;an old unit of currency equal to 4 baht;also a plant (Coccinia indica;Coccinia Grandis)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(7) and (8) look like Thai derivatives including the -am- infix. ตำหนิ seems to be a derivative of ติ 'blame, fault'. ตำแหน่ง, more revealingly translated as 'position, post, rank', is probably a derivative of แต่ง 'adorn'.

As a unit of money or a weight, ตำลึง derives from Khmer ฎํฬึง, ตมฺลึง. The second vowel is the same in all three of these related words.

It would be nice to derive ตำรา from ตรา 'seal, stamp', but the semantics seems a bit too far-fetched.