Thia Court System

[ray23]

I'm currently involved in a major conflict with a Thia builder, who used fraud to obtain our business in building houses. Basically promised everything and after the deposit was posted built a house but not what he agreed to build. After the deposits were posted refused to even speak to us. Two homeowners involved with the same experience, so not a personality conflict.

At this point a attorney has been contacted, who has recommended contacting the Public Prosecutors Office in Bangkok, supposedly there is a division located there whose purpose is to protect buyers involved in building homes in Thailand.

Anyone ever heard of this?

The other thing that is everyone says that foriegner will never get fair treatment in a Thia Court, and no matter what the circumstances the Thai will always win. Therefore no reason to try to protect yourself from fraudualnet buisness practices. Of course this is all based on rumors.

Does anyone have any experience in Thia Courts?

Thanks

Ray.

[udon]

I haven't.... fortunately , but Dr J Race has. Read this and weep;

http://www.camblab.com/thai_02.htm

You might want to google "adventures in Thai justice"

Good luck mate

Anyone who thinks the FTA agreement with Thailand will be a walk in the park , should read Dr Race's experience.

I hope that the Oz gov't is aware of his experience.

[ray23]

I haven't.... fortunately , but Dr J Race has. Read this and weep;

http://www.camblab.com/thai_02.htm

You might want to google "adventures in Thai justice"

Good luck mate 

Anyone who thinks the FTA agreement with Thailand will be a walk in the park , should read Dr Race's experience.

I hope that the Oz gov't is aware of his experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good Information, gives me a good idea where I stand and how far to take this before throwing in the towel and picking up the pieces.

It also appears that letting the Thai wife handle this is not a bad idea since the contract is with her. I do believe I will take a back seat on this one.

[Ajarn]

The other thing that is everyone says that foriegner will never get fair treatment in a Thia Court, and no matter what the circumstances the Thai will always win. .

Fact: Thais don't always win.

Of course, every farang in prison says the court was unfair. Thailand isn't any different, from my experience in talking with incarcerated farangs... In the States, I used to run a 'scared straight' program for teenagers at San Quentin prison and I spent a lot of time with the prisoners there.

Anyway....Thailand is a basically corrupt society, so I can certainly understand your concerns about being able to trust the system to work properly. In so many cases, it doesn't....

But, of the cases concerning farang friends who've had dealings with the cops as a victim, and of the farangs I've known who've gone through the court process for civil matters, I've never seen a problem. In each case that I was closely familiar with, the cops and the courts were fair in regards to justice... And the farangs won their cases, mostly.

You'll likely hear other stories saying the opposite- and some stories might even be true- and that's the problem here- the system doesn't always work the same for everyone...

I can't offer any advice except to say that if it's clear by the law that you're in the right, you at least have a fighting chance, I'd say.

Best of luck to you. and learn whatever lesson there is for you to learn in order to better protect yourself and maybe avoid these kinds of future problems....

Am I correct in assuming from your words that you weren't around for any of the construction process, where you might have been able to catch the problems earlier?

[ray23]

Thank you for your information encouraging to say the least. As a retired Police officer from the states, which included close work with the court systems in the civil enforcement divison, I can tell you from first hand experience American courts are not above what you see in Thailand, usually a form of the good old boys network, rather then the blatant examples you see here, or should I say hear of here.

I have to make decesions on how far to take this, I know there are no guarentees, but wiht first hand infomation I can make a more accurate assesment, then I can based on rumor.

To answer your question I have been on the building site everyday, the contractor simply refuses to speak with me. So every step of the way he has been informed, if something wasn't going to plan. The man speaks great english not a problem there. I have compromised and compromised with him to try to reach a reasonable conclusion. I just don't have many compromises left, the house is not anything like it was planned to be. I have accepted that and understand that I will have expend additional monies to try to achieve what I want. The problems his actions are now driving those costs up and up. It all could be avoided in measures that would decrease his cost, increase his profits, he simply won't listen.

The house is not completed yet, but I know where this going. His position is and always has been I will build the house that I like and you will buy it.

I may well do that before this is over, but there is a 1.1 million payment due on completion. He may well get that payment, but I'm not going to hand it to him with a smile, he will earn it. At this juncture if I walk away I would probably lose 400, K.

Hopefully through a litttle effort I can recover some of that 400 K that would be the best case that I can see at this point. Something is much better then nothing. The worst case is I pay the 1.5 and I have a house. So I don't really feel threatened at this juncture.

Incidently the house is located in Udon and this is an expensive house in this area.

Thanks for your input, it is helpful

Ray.

I hope to make the best I can out of the mess.

[astral]

I assume you have a contract, signed and witnessed that lays out what was agreed, referencing the plans?

If so then you should be suing for breach of contract.

It is a civil matter, not criminal.

With hold the final payment until the house is to your satisfaction.

You lawyer will be able to advise and you wife will know the way around the Thai system, hopefully.

For reference of others reading this.

Watch every step of the construction like a hawk.

Get your own tape and check measurements, check levels as well.

At the first sign of deviation from the plans call the head man, the one who signed the contract, and say "STOP! This is not correct".

Show him the plans and point out what is wrong.

Tell him to correct it.

If necessary tell him to remove his staff and find a new builder.

No more money to the old one until the problem is solved.

Otherwise they will plough on regardless.

I have made the mistake of not being firm enough, and my house is not as I wanted it.

[Ajarn]

Maybe you were the Good Cop when the Bad Cop might have had more success sometimes?

[Ajarn]

I assume you have a contract, signed and witnessed that lays out what was agreed, referencing the plans?

If so then you should be suing for breach of contract.

It is a civil matter, not criminal.

With hold the final payment until the house is to your satisfaction.

You lawyer will be able to advise and you wife will know the way around the Thai system, hopefully.

For reference of others reading this.

Watch every step of the construction like a hawk. 

Get your own tape and check measurements, check levels as well.

At the first sign of deviation from the plans call the head man, the one who signed the contract, and say "STOP!  This is not correct".

Show him the plans and point out what is wrong.

Tell him to correct it.

If necessary tell him to remove his staff and find a new builder.

No more money to the old one until the problem is solved.

Otherwise they will plough on regardless.

I have made the mistake of not being firm enough, and my house is not as I wanted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with Astral. In my experience with construction workers, or any kind of worker for that matter, whatever you let 'slide' is taken as your permission to continue on...

[ray23]

I assume you have a contract, signed and witnessed that lays out what was agreed, referencing the plans?

If so then you should be suing for breach of contract.

It is a civil matter, not criminal.

With hold the final payment until the house is to your satisfaction.

You lawyer will be able to advise and you wife will know the way around the Thai system, hopefully.

For reference of others reading this.

Watch every step of the construction like a hawk. 

Get your own tape and check measurements, check levels as well.

At the first sign of deviation from the plans call the head man, the one who signed the contract, and say "STOP!  This is not correct".

Show him the plans and point out what is wrong.

Tell him to correct it.

If necessary tell him to remove his staff and find a new builder.

No more money to the old one until the problem is solved.

Otherwise they will plough on regardless.

I have made the mistake of not being firm enough, and my house is not as I wanted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with Astral. In my experience with construction workers, or any kind of worker for that matter, whatever you let 'slide' is taken as your permission to continue on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love that good cop bad cop. Probably so, yes there was a contract and he has been told he is breach of that contract, just keeps on plugging along. I intend to withhold the final payment that is where I think we will start into the civil action. Actually it's a funny contract in that it calls for the final payment wihtin 90 days of completion. He is fully confident I will just take the house which is what the last fallang did. I may be able to negoiate this into my favor before it's over. Just have to wait and see how it plays out. I'm not alone in this another farrrang has the same type of problems with the guy, so at this juncture he is looking withholding of payment on two houses.

I think sometimes we put ourselves in these messes simply because we don't stand up to the same behavior we would never tolerate in our home communities. I know I have many times. But this is to big Mia Bpen Lia

[andy50]

I assume you have a contract, signed and witnessed that lays out what was agreed, referencing the plans?

If so then you should be suing for breach of contract.

It is a civil matter, not criminal.

With hold the final payment until the house is to your satisfaction.

You lawyer will be able to advise and you wife will know the way around the Thai system, hopefully.

For reference of others reading this.

Watch every step of the construction like a hawk. 

Get your own tape and check measurements, check levels as well.

At the first sign of deviation from the plans call the head man, the one who signed the contract, and say "STOP!  This is not correct".

Show him the plans and point out what is wrong.

Tell him to correct it.

If necessary tell him to remove his staff and find a new builder.

No more money to the old one until the problem is solved.

Otherwise they will plough on regardless.

I have made the mistake of not being firm enough, and my house is not as I wanted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with Astral. In my experience with construction workers, or any kind of worker for that matter, whatever you let 'slide' is taken as your permission to continue on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love that good cop bad cop. Probably so, yes there was a contract and he has been told he is breach of that contract, just keeps on plugging along. I intend to withhold the final payment that is where I think we will start into the civil action. Actually it's a funny contract in that it calls for the final payment wihtin 90 days of completion. He is fully confident I will just take the house which is what the last fallang did. I may be able to negoiate this into my favor before it's over. Just have to wait and see how it plays out. I'm not alone in this another farrrang has the same type of problems with the guy, so at this juncture he is looking withholding of payment on two houses.

I think sometimes we put ourselves in these messes simply because we don't stand up to the same behavior we would never tolerate in our home communities. I know I have many times. But this is to big Mia Bpen Lia

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hope it doesnt turn nasty ,when you withold final payment! --but it surely will!

[ray23]

I assume you have a contract, signed and witnessed that lays out what was agreed, referencing the plans?

If so then you should be suing for breach of contract.

It is a civil matter, not criminal.

With hold the final payment until the house is to your satisfaction.

You lawyer will be able to advise and you wife will know the way around the Thai system, hopefully.

For reference of others reading this.

Watch every step of the construction like a hawk. 

Get your own tape and check measurements, check levels as well.

At the first sign of deviation from the plans call the head man, the one who signed the contract, and say "STOP!  This is not correct".

Show him the plans and point out what is wrong.

Tell him to correct it.

If necessary tell him to remove his staff and find a new builder.

No more money to the old one until the problem is solved.

Otherwise they will plough on regardless.

I have made the mistake of not being firm enough, and my house is not as I wanted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with Astral. In my experience with construction workers, or any kind of worker for that matter, whatever you let 'slide' is taken as your permission to continue on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love that good cop bad cop. Probably so, yes there was a contract and he has been told he is breach of that contract, just keeps on plugging along. I intend to withhold the final payment that is where I think we will start into the civil action. Actually it's a funny contract in that it calls for the final payment wihtin 90 days of completion. He is fully confident I will just take the house which is what the last fallang did. I may be able to negoiate this into my favor before it's over. Just have to wait and see how it plays out. I'm not alone in this another farrrang has the same type of problems with the guy, so at this juncture he is looking withholding of payment on two houses.

I think sometimes we put ourselves in these messes simply because we don't stand up to the same behavior we would never tolerate in our home communities. I know I have many times. But this is to big Mia Bpen Lia

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hope it doesnt turn nasty ,when you withold final payment! --but it surely will!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure that it will turn nasty, that is why I am preparing now. It helps to know the rules of engagment, when you got a war around the corner. I will make every effort to avoid that, short of just giving in. But I think I will be the only one with that thought in mind. Some where between his poisiton and mine is a reasonable resolution to the matter. The goal is to get there, by the best method available. With any luck it will not go to court.

Ray.

[dek]

I assume you have a contract, signed and witnessed that lays out what was agreed, referencing the plans?

If so then you should be suing for breach of contract.

It is a civil matter, not criminal.

With hold the final payment until the house is to your satisfaction.

You lawyer will be able to advise and you wife will know the way around the Thai system, hopefully.

For reference of others reading this.

Watch every step of the construction like a hawk. 

Get your own tape and check measurements, check levels as well.

At the first sign of deviation from the plans call the head man, the one who signed the contract, and say "STOP!  This is not correct".

Show him the plans and point out what is wrong.

Tell him to correct it.

If necessary tell him to remove his staff and find a new builder.

No more money to the old one until the problem is solved.

Otherwise they will plough on regardless.

I have made the mistake of not being firm enough, and my house is not as I wanted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with Astral. In my experience with construction workers, or any kind of worker for that matter, whatever you let 'slide' is taken as your permission to continue on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love that good cop bad cop. Probably so, yes there was a contract and he has been told he is breach of that contract, just keeps on plugging along. I intend to withhold the final payment that is where I think we will start into the civil action. Actually it's a funny contract in that it calls for the final payment wihtin 90 days of completion. He is fully confident I will just take the house which is what the last fallang did. I may be able to negoiate this into my favor before it's over. Just have to wait and see how it plays out. I'm not alone in this another farrrang has the same type of problems with the guy, so at this juncture he is looking withholding of payment on two houses.

I think sometimes we put ourselves in these messes simply because we don't stand up to the same behavior we would never tolerate in our home communities. I know I have many times. But this is to big Mia Bpen Lia

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hope it doesnt turn nasty ,when you withold final payment! --but it surely will!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure that it will turn nasty, that is why I am preparing now. It helps to know the rules of engagment, when you got a war around the corner. I will make every effort to avoid that, short of just giving in. But I think I will be the only one with that thought in mind. Some where between his poisiton and mine is a reasonable resolution to the matter. The goal is to get there, by the best method available. With any luck it will not go to court.

Ray.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ray, Sorry to hear of your troubles. I suggest that given the direction you can see things are going, it my be wise for you to get a lawyer involved now. If you wait to the end you may not have a sufficiently strong paper trail to convince a court that you have done everything you could so to make the builder comply with the terms of the plans and contract.

Good Luck

dek

[ray23]

I assume you have a contract, signed and witnessed that lays out what was agreed, referencing the plans?

If so then you should be suing for breach of contract.

It is a civil matter, not criminal.

With hold the final payment until the house is to your satisfaction.

You lawyer will be able to advise and you wife will know the way around the Thai system, hopefully.

For reference of others reading this.

Watch every step of the construction like a hawk. 

Get your own tape and check measurements, check levels as well.

At the first sign of deviation from the plans call the head man, the one who signed the contract, and say "STOP!  This is not correct".

Show him the plans and point out what is wrong.

Tell him to correct it.

If necessary tell him to remove his staff and find a new builder.

No more money to the old one until the problem is solved.

Otherwise they will plough on regardless.

I have made the mistake of not being firm enough, and my house is not as I wanted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with Astral. In my experience with construction workers, or any kind of worker for that matter, whatever you let 'slide' is taken as your permission to continue on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love that good cop bad cop. Probably so, yes there was a contract and he has been told he is breach of that contract, just keeps on plugging along. I intend to withhold the final payment that is where I think we will start into the civil action. Actually it's a funny contract in that it calls for the final payment wihtin 90 days of completion. He is fully confident I will just take the house which is what the last fallang did. I may be able to negoiate this into my favor before it's over. Just have to wait and see how it plays out. I'm not alone in this another farrrang has the same type of problems with the guy, so at this juncture he is looking withholding of payment on two houses.

I think sometimes we put ourselves in these messes simply because we don't stand up to the same behavior we would never tolerate in our home communities. I know I have many times. But this is to big Mia Bpen Lia

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hope it doesnt turn nasty ,when you withold final payment! --but it surely will!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure that it will turn nasty, that is why I am preparing now. It helps to know the rules of engagment, when you got a war around the corner. I will make every effort to avoid that, short of just giving in. But I think I will be the only one with that thought in mind. Some where between his poisiton and mine is a reasonable resolution to the matter. The goal is to get there, by the best method available. With any luck it will not go to court.

Ray.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ray, Sorry to hear of your troubles. I suggest that given the direction you can see things are going, it my be wise for you to get a lawyer involved now. If you wait to the end you may not have a sufficiently strong paper trail to convince a court that you have done everything you could so to make the builder comply with the terms of the plans and contract.

Good Luck

dek

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Things could be a lot worse Dek, it will all work out one way or another. Generally speaking the house has been built well, worse case is I will have to buy it, so I really am in an OK position. He simply built the house he wanted, not the one I wanted. I have had an attorney involved for the past three weeks. My experience with attornies is they tend to want to take it to the limits helps there fees. A good attorney will always tell you when you are fighting a losing battle. I may utilize a second that I have since been in contact, who will operate for a 20% contingency. At this juncture, if i can reach an aceptable settlement I woudl much rather di that then go to court. We will see.

[astral]

Good luck.

Please let us know what happens.

PS I assume it is already your house, on your land?

The question is whether you pay the final sum, or the builder refunds

the construction costs to date, selling to another mug.

[ray23]

Good luck.

Please let us know what happens.

PS I assume it is already your house, on your land?

The question is whether you pay the final sum, or the builder refunds

the construction costs to date, selling to another mug.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No not my land his, the reason I could not just fire him.

Per the contract, it is to be completed the 27 Th, it's been strange since he won't talk to me he is shooting in the dark knows he has a problem, but doesn't want to know exactly what it is. I inspected the house again today something I do each day and noted four rather expensive cieling fans installed, and bulbs in every light socket. The original plan was I would pick out the cieling fan and pay for them myself I think he is taking his best shot. This has to be the oddest position I have ever been in, he spending money, but not in the areas of my concern.

We are at stage now where I can see where it's going I will prepare a prelimlinary punch list and present it to him this week. I will give him a final punch list and if he does not respond, withhold payment, until he does. Or it is adjudicated.

[stroll]

I hope you consider the possiblilty that this guy may well be willing and able to use other resources outside legal procedures, if it came to a disagreement about 1.1 m bth. I would have a lawyer or p.i. research his past dealings and activities.

[sua yai]

My advice, for it's worth, is never back down.

I've been through criminal matters in this country and at the end of the day the police played fair. Most people would have run away.

In civil matters, I've known a few farangs who have fallen foul of building/bar scene and taken the Thai people to court. Without exception, the farang won.

Only problem was exacting any payment/ recompense.

Good luck.

[kat]

I hope you consider the possiblilty that this guy may well be willing and able to use other resources outside legal procedures, if it came to a disagreement about 1.1 m bth. I would have a lawyer or p.i. research his past dealings and activities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, disagreements such as these are generally not settled by a judge. Take care of your back.

[ray23]

I hope you consider the possiblilty that this guy may well be willing and able to use other resources outside legal procedures, if it came to a disagreement about 1.1 m bth. I would have a lawyer or p.i. research his past dealings and activities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, disagreements such as these are generally not settled by a judge. Take care of your back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well sage advise, the way things seem to be unfolding it appears that, he will find a middle ground that will allow himsef to save face and meet my needs. If not then I have heard that Hua Hin is a great place and I miss the beach. I will find something in this process that will work for me, he gives in a little each day. So far all I've done is tell him I'm not buying and to return my money. Well he didn't return the money and he didn't stop building. However, he keeps adding very expensive items to the mix, that were not part of the agreement. I really haven't domne anymore then that since he refuses to talk, he is guessing as to what will make me happy and at this juncture seems to be in a over kill mode.

It appears that because of his behavior I will end up with more house then what was agreed to. So I think at this point I will just keep my mouth shut and let things flow. There are now only minor things in the punch list, take a tree trunk out from under the bathroom area. Really no sweat for him he only pays 130 baht a day for labor. change some tile in the outside front entry, put in a attic access and insulate the attic. He hasn't done the bathrooms yet. I'm very tempted to just keep my mouth shut, really the only thing different that I want in that area is enclosed showers taht wouldn't be his norm. His standard in the past has been to put in bath tubs. In either event I don't see the harm, except he will pay more for the tubs then the shower enclosure.

If this continues the way it is now, this is going to get down to my ego. Ego doesn't put money in the bank. I may win just by not giving him the information that he would really needed to complete the project, since my thought processes are less expenses then the guesses he is making to please me.

I have a case that would win in an American Court System because he didn't the follow plan. But in the reality court, at this juncture I'm getting a lot more then I agreed to pay for. So at this time if he gets close to meeting the requirements that I have left, I will back off. Pay the money move on and if I ever build another house I will have learned many things, to avoid this the biggest one. Buy the land so you have more control. It is very difficult to tell someone who is building a house on what is his land at the time of construction to go away.

Really the only avenue short of litigation I had was to tell him that I would not buy the house and request my deposit back. Which I did, in this case he just kept building away. I suppose contractually there might be away to guard against this, but it isn't in the standard building contract. Possibly a clause that calls for suspension of building, I really don't know.

The guy really is doing more harm to himself now then me. I will just watch things closely now and make sure that the roles are not reversed. If things continue the way they are I would feel like an idiot to complain that I got more then I agreed to pay for. So we will see how things unfold, I still have all the avenues available to me, until I make final payments and accept the house.